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Old 08-15-2008, 06:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Learning to play guitar.. Seeking advice/recommendations.

My friends have game systems, and when I'm at their place we'll play some Guitar Hero or Rock Band. I enjoy the games to the extent that it allows me to play an artificial role in creating songs I recognize, but I've ultimately decided I'd like to give learning the real guitar a shot.

I played violin and viola through high school; had a teacher, performed at functions and in local orchestras, and generally had a pretty structured instruction throughout the time I played.

With guitar, I'd like to teach myself and am strictly interested in having fun and finding out if I even enjoy playing. Thus, I'm seeking a lot less structure than my previous instrumental experience.

I am likely going to pick up a used/cheap acoustic guitar and would appreciate any and all recommendations in regards to where I should look (dad suggested a pawn shop), as well as how much I should be looking to spend for a used "first timer" guitar.

Furthermore, I'd really appreciate recommendations in regards to books or resources that would be worthwhile for someone that is looking to learn guitar and knows very little about the instrument or how to play it.

I'm excited to give learning the guitar a serious shot, and while I watched my friends invest hour upon hour into Guitar Hero, it made me realize that I could invest a portion of that time into learning real guitar to see if I take a liking to it myself.

Any and all comments are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:05 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimellow View Post
With guitar, I'd like to teach myself and am strictly interested in having fun and finding out if I even enjoy playing. Thus, I'm seeking a lot less structure than my previous instrumental experience.

Any and all comments are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Okay, since you already played a musical instrument, and a difficult one at that, I won't give you the "playing a musical instrument is a serious investment" but don't assume that because a lot of people play the guitar, that it'll be a simple instrument to play; that is because a lot of people who play the guitar actually can't.

So here we go:

First of all, realize that picking up the guitar will be difficult; Hendrix won't be your boy for a long time. As soon as you come to terms with that, which I figure you can, here are a few tips I give to my beginner students.

There are branches of beginner guitar that students should focus on to become well rounded players (in my opinion): 1) Playing Technique, 2) Music Theory, 3) Rhythm.

1) This is the simplest to "pick up" but the hardest to master. My three basic "playing hands" techniques that I teach my kids are:

i) Elevator Button Fingers (Play with the tips of your fingers, not the pads; playing with pads lessons the strength and movement of the finger; it'll be painful but worth it)/Playing with arched fingers (this allows better movement and along with the first part will stop you from devoloping one of the worst "self taught" habits; blocking and muting strings. By keeping those fingers arched and playing with the tips, you'll avoid blocking other stings)

ii) Playing Close to the fret. I'm assuming you know what the fret is but if you don't, they are the small metal bars separating the spaces where you play. By developing the habit of playing close to the frets when you begin, you'll be hounded less by buzzing (which happens when you don't apply enough finger strength and/or your positioning is flawed). It just saves you a lot of trouble and once you become a little more comfortable with playing around the fret board then you can change it up.

iii) (this is for your right hand; or your "strumming/picking" hand) Pick control. Beginners usually do two things when they begin which you should pay attention to mastering right away. First of all, play with control in respect to the movement of your strumming; or, rather, don't move too far from the strings. Moving excessively far from the strings will cause you to slow or overcompensate when it comes to timing. Over the top speed and strength when strumming doesn't need to equal a louder sound; just play with precision and it'll sound like you want it. The second is most beginners either dig or skim their pick. Digging is kind of like digging with a spade in a garden; you dip your pick far into the strings and receive a lot of resistance. Skimming is the opposite; you aren't hitting the strings enough, often missing strings completely, or playing without any power or sound.

All three things are tips on how to optimize your effort into playing with a lazer focus. It makes development that much easier.

Tips: For 1) Try (I can't think of the word right now; drumming your fingers one by one, over and over??) with them arched and only hitting the tips. When you lift up to hit again, make sure not to extend your fingers out. Another great tip for finger strength is to take your index with thumb and press with all of your strength for about ten seconds and repeat with all of your fingers; do this about 15 times a day and you'll be a god in no time.

Also when it comes to actually "playing the guitar" try mock scales to become more comfortable with the fret board. Mock scales are simply playing every playing position (1st fret, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th with the corresponding fingers index (1), middle (2), ring (3), and pinky (4)) all the way down the guitar from 6th string to first (Low E to High e) in a 1-4 order. When you get to the bottom, move over a fret (so you are now playing 2-3-4-5) and playing up the guitar only backwards, playing 4-1. Do this as a warm up and you'll find you're playing will get better quickly.

2) Basic music theory is simple to learn; refer to the book section of my comment.

3) My favorite! Rhythm! Rhythm is a very difficult thing to learn, but I would suggest the following two things:

i) When you're playing tap your foot to a basic 4/4 rhythm, and also count aloud while doing it. This means using every part of your body in playing and will help you develop faster (saying it, playing it, tapping it)

ii) When you get to point where you can comfortably learn songs within a specific genre try keeping the same chord progression but change the rhythm and playing style to a different genre. For instance: playing a folk song with a bluesy thumb, playing blues like a pop song, etc. It'll help you explore different genres and playing styles too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimellow
Furthermore, I'd really appreciate recommendations in regards to books or resources that would be worthwhile for someone that is looking to learn guitar and knows very little about the instrument or how to play it
For this I'd recommend two books:

1) Hal Lenord's Guitar Book 1: It's so simplistic and kind of silly for an adult but it explains things VERY WELL and also gives you simple drills that you can develop over time as warm ups.

2) Guitar Playing For Dummies. GREAT adult playing book. Very accurate and indepth playing drills and songs. Forces you to build on everything you learn better then any other book I've ever seen, and forces you to play every style. Also has tips on everything guitar related. It's kind of a big purchase for a book (30-40 bucks) but I think it's worth every penny.

Quote:
I am likely going to pick up a used/cheap acoustic guitar and would appreciate any and all recommendations in regards to where I should look (dad suggested a pawn shop), as well as how much I should be looking to spend for a used "first timer" guitar.
If you just want a clunker and aren't looking for a solid beginner guitar pick one up from a pawn shop but it'll be harder to play. Instruments are like wands in Harry Potter; they kind of choose you. If you're serious about trying though, and don't mid spending 400-500 bucks, look into Seagulls. Great playing guitar, relatively cheap, and durable.

Oh yeah; LEARN ON ACOUSTIC! Do not learn on electric, even though it sounds neato. It is forgiving and sloppy. Force yourself to be better then you think you can be and you will be.

Quote:
I'm excited to give learning the guitar a serious shot, and while I watched my friends invest hour upon hour into Guitar Hero, it made me realize that I could invest a portion of that time into learning real guitar to see if I take a liking to it myself.
I hope all of this helps; I'm sure it will. Either way, and I don't know you but I tell this to everyone, don't give up because it will hurt, and it will get hard fast, and you've just got to push through it. I love the story of Jonie Mitchell; she almost gave up playing guitar because she couldn't play the F maj chord. Imagine what would of happened if she had man.

Good luck.

-Taylor
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:25 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkmusicfan21 View Post
Oh yeah; LEARN ON ACOUSTIC! Do not learn on electric, even though it sounds neato. It is forgiving and sloppy. Force yourself to be better then you think you can be and you will be.
Seconded. Plus electric guitars are awkward and cumbersome around campfires. It helps to have a guitar you can pick up and play anywhere, anytime without having to set up.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:29 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Holy crap, punkmusicfan21 has just given you a metric fuckton of awesome advice. I wish someone had been there to say all that crap when I was starting out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by punkmusicfan21
don't assume that because a lot of people play the guitar, that it'll be a simple instrument to play; that is because a lot of people who play the guitar actually can't.
This is ridiculously true. The thing that separates 'guitar players' from actual instrumentalists is dedication and a solid understanding of the fundamentals. Since you have prior musical training, I imagine you'll have a decent grasp of music theory. Develop that and use it.

In terms of beginner techniques and what to focus on, I really have nothing to add. Read above. In terms of instruments, I would very heavily advise against going to a pawn shop. You can get a Jay Turser, Silvertone or similar student guitar at an actual music store for $150-200 new and it will be tons better than anything out of a pawn shop. Also, music store employees can give you advice and suggestions and are much more likely to actually know what they're talking about. Seagulls are indeed awesome instruments, but they can be a a bit costly. Corts are also good and can be slightly less costly. My store has a solid spruce topped Cort in right now for $200 and it sounds unbelievably sexy.

punkmusicfan21 is also right about the guitar choosing you, sort of. When you pick up the right instrument, you just kind of know. That might be something that only comes after you've been playing a while though, I'm not sure.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
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punkmusicfan21: Great stuff! I only browsed your post, but will print it out and read it thoroughly later this evening.

I found this guitar on Craigslist, and would welcome thoughts or opinions. It may have already been sold, but should help me get some feedback on a price range regardless. The listing can be viewed here: FENDER ACOUSTIC GUITAR

As for electric guitar.. I can't say I'm really drawn to it, at least not initially. I find it very appealing to be able to create music naturally, without the need for amplifiers and cords; and I also suspect I am drawn to acoustic as a result of playing natural/wooden instruments in life. I admittedly do like the ability to take a guitar anywhere and play it, even if it's outdoors or at a friend's place, etc.

I'm excited about giving guitar a serious shot because it's something I genuinely want to do, whereas playing violin/viola was something my parents wanted me to do and felt it would benefit me in life, despite my opposition and frustration at having to wake up early on Saturdays to go to orchestra practice, when everyone else was sitting at home watching cartoons.

I do tend to be a bit streaky in my interests, but providing I don't invest too much in a starter guitar, I don't see myself having anything to lose. I'm also intrigued by reading guitar music, as it appears to be quite different than what I'm used to and currently looks like a foreign language to me.

I really appreciate the replies and recommendations. And please share more, as it's great stuff!
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Old 08-16-2008, 02:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimellow View Post
punkmusicfan21: Great stuff! I only browsed your post, but will print it out and read it thoroughly later this evening.

I found this guitar on Craigslist, and would welcome thoughts or opinions. It may have already been sold, but should help me get some feedback on a price range regardless. The listing can be viewed here: FENDER ACOUSTIC GUITAR
I can't see anything wrong with the guitar in the pictures, although it's hard to say for sure without seeing it in person. I would really (really, really) advise buying your first guitar from an actual music store, where actual musicians work who can help you to pick the best instrument for your money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimellow View Post
...I'm also intrigued by reading guitar music, as it appears to be quite different than what I'm used to and currently looks like a foreign language to me.

I really appreciate the replies and recommendations. And please share more, as it's great stuff!
The vast majority of music you'll find online is written in what's known as tabulature notation, or just tab for short. It consists of six lines, thus:

----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

And each line represents one string on the guitar (or technically one course, but we won't worry about that distinction for now). To write out a song in tab, one refers to the fret position of the note to be played on the correct string, with the top line representing the first or highest pitched string and the bottom line representing the sixth or lowest pitched string.

Tab isn't really a complete form of notation, because it doesn't account for rhythm or tempo or volume. It only tells you what notes to play, and not when and how to play them. It is properly accompanied by standard notation, but since most self-taught guitarists don't know how to read standard notation that part usually gets left out.

I'd like to talk a bit about right hand technique. punkmusicfan21 has already given some great advice, but the right hand is often ignored or underdeveloped by self-taught musicians and I can't emphasize enough how important it is. Good pick technique is one of the details that separates the good guitarists from the mediocre ones.

Strumming is pretty straightforward and I don't have a lot to say about it. As your picking develops you'll learn how to strum in order to hit the strings you want so that you get the right chords (this is used in combination with left hand muting), and you'll also learn how to strum to get the proper sound, ie a heavy percussive strum versus a light and sort of legato strum.

When it comes to lead picking, there are two main methods in use. Both are valid and both have their proponents, and you'll probably either use what's most comfortable or maybe even go back and forth depending on what you're playing.

Alternate picking is the first method, and basically means what it says on the tin. You alternate upstrokes and downstrokes constantly, regardless of what string you're playing on. Thus, if you play your first note on the second string as a downstroke, and your second note is on the first string, you'll use an upstroke on the first string even though it is physically lower than the second string and you therefore have to move the pick underneath it and come back up for the actual stroke. This might sound counter-intuitive, but with a bit of practice it becomes natural very quickly. Proponents of alternate picking say that it grants a more consistent meter; the reference I've heard is to the pick as almost a sort of metronome.

Economy picking is like alternate picking, except that you'll use the more efficient stroke when switching strings. So in the above example, when you pick your second note instead of moving past the string and using an upstroke, you'll just use two downstrokes in a row. Sweep picking is an extreme form of economy picking and is heavily used by metal guitarists who want to play super fast lines. Proponents of the technique claim that it grants greater speed than alternate picking because it uses the least amount of movement possible.

Of course, that's just how the pick hits the strings. It's important to understand that your entire right hand will be used in your playing, which is why I refer to it as right hand technique and not picking technique. The side of your hand is used to mute and kill notes, you'll use your fingers to pick notes in various situations, etc. This all ties into what punkmusicfan21 said above about playing with your whole body. A guitar is not played with the fingers alone, and the sooner you realize that they better off you'll be.
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Old 08-16-2008, 10:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian View Post
I can't see anything wrong with the guitar in the pictures, although it's hard to say for sure without seeing it in person. I would really (really, really) advise buying your first guitar from an actual music store, where actual musicians work who can help you to pick the best instrument for your money.




The vast majority of music you'll find online is written in what's known as tabulature notation, or just tab for short. It consists of six lines, thus:

----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

And each line represents one string on the guitar (or technically one course, but we won't worry about that distinction for now). To write out a song in tab, one refers to the fret position of the note to be played on the correct string, with the top line representing the first or highest pitched string and the bottom line representing the sixth or lowest pitched string.

Tab isn't really a complete form of notation, because it doesn't account for rhythm or tempo or volume. It only tells you what notes to play, and not when and how to play them. It is properly accompanied by standard notation, but since most self-taught guitarists don't know how to read standard notation that part usually gets left out.

I'd like to talk a bit about right hand technique. punkmusicfan21 has already given some great advice, but the right hand is often ignored or underdeveloped by self-taught musicians and I can't emphasize enough how important it is. Good pick technique is one of the details that separates the good guitarists from the mediocre ones.

Strumming is pretty straightforward and I don't have a lot to say about it. As your picking develops you'll learn how to strum in order to hit the strings you want so that you get the right chords (this is used in combination with left hand muting), and you'll also learn how to strum to get the proper sound, ie a heavy percussive strum versus a light and sort of legato strum.

When it comes to lead picking, there are two main methods in use. Both are valid and both have their proponents, and you'll probably either use what's most comfortable or maybe even go back and forth depending on what you're playing.

Alternate picking is the first method, and basically means what it says on the tin. You alternate upstrokes and downstrokes constantly, regardless of what string you're playing on. Thus, if you play your first note on the second string as a downstroke, and your second note is on the first string, you'll use an upstroke on the first string even though it is physically lower than the second string and you therefore have to move the pick underneath it and come back up for the actual stroke. This might sound counter-intuitive, but with a bit of practice it becomes natural very quickly. Proponents of alternate picking say that it grants a more consistent meter; the reference I've heard is to the pick as almost a sort of metronome.

Economy picking is like alternate picking, except that you'll use the more efficient stroke when switching strings. So in the above example, when you pick your second note instead of moving past the string and using an upstroke, you'll just use two downstrokes in a row. Sweep picking is an extreme form of economy picking and is heavily used by metal guitarists who want to play super fast lines. Proponents of the technique claim that it grants greater speed than alternate picking because it uses the least amount of movement possible.

Of course, that's just how the pick hits the strings. It's important to understand that your entire right hand will be used in your playing, which is why I refer to it as right hand technique and not picking technique. The side of your hand is used to mute and kill notes, you'll use your fingers to pick notes in various situations, etc. This all ties into what punkmusicfan21 said above about playing with your whole body. A guitar is not played with the fingers alone, and the sooner you realize that they better off you'll be.

Great advice.

See, this is the problem with being self-taught. There is so much to learn when it comes to playing an instrument. They are so intricate. Little tips like "playing with your whole body" seems silly but it's essential.
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm self-taught as well, and although I wish I had learned proper techniques from the beginning, I got started by learning a few chords & strumming along with some songs I wanted to play, adding more and more along the way. You can do a lot just by picking up a very basic book that shows you some chords & scanning the Internet for some tabs.
It's a good way to go if, like you said, you just want to see if you like playing.

As for where to buy an instrument, there is one answer. EBAY! I've bought 5 or 6, and have had great experience. If you want an acoustic, look for SOLID TOP. There are some on eBay, (like the Jay Turser Models - they're an incredible value and sound great) that cost less than a laminate top from a guitar store. The better the sound, the more you're going to want to practice.

I used to sell guitars in a music store - and if you really want to go that route, keep in mind that the price is negotiable. Expect them to go to at least 30% off retail for you. Still, you're not going to beat eBay pricing on new guitars from some of these sellers...
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Old 08-18-2008, 09:16 AM   #9 (permalink)
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The only problem with being self taught isn't that you won't learn stuff over time. It's the bad habits that form as you learn how to play improperly. The most common I find are:

-Playing primarily with your index and middle fingers (your pinky is important)
-Shaky Rhythm
-Improper picking
-Tedious and often painful hand positioning
-etc

Learning songs and playing along is fun but that is like buying a computer to play a video game. It's cool if that's all you want but there is so much more.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:02 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I like to watch. I can't play, but do like to see just how people play. Besides the youtube stuff, this site helps me see people play.

GuitarTube - Free Guitar Videos
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Old 08-19-2008, 03:14 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Another good option for a beginner's instrument that will serve you well is a Yamaha. I teach professionally as well, the others have already given a lot of great advice already so I won't burden you with more. Have fun - guitar is a great instrument!
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:42 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I got a guitar on Craigslist (http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/msg/798443429.html), and the two books recommended in this thread arrived today. Previously, I had checked out Guitar for Dummies from the library, but it lacked a disc. Now that my own copies have arrived, I can get down to business. I like the guitar a lot. It's in like-new condition, came with a hard case and stand, and despite my inexperience seemed like a fair deal.

I was working through Guitar for Dummies last night, and started learning a few chords. The length of time I am able to practice is dictated by how much pain I can tolerate in my fingertips before stopping, but I gather that's a natural barrier and will lessen as calluses develop.

I opened up Hal Leonard's Guitar Method for the first time just now, and it seems he focuses on learning notes initially, whereas Dummies focuses on learning chords, without as much emphasis on notes. Given my experience with violin, I suspect I may prefer Hal's note oriented approach, as that seems more familiar to me.

Mom brought home a beater guitar a few days ago and the first thing I did was start playing Suzuki violin songs that I remembered from over ten years ago. In a sense, playing notes is comfortable to me, whereas chords are newer and will likely take more time, as violins don't use chord-type segments nearly as much in my experience.

Now that I have a guitar, I will go back and print out the replies to this thread, but I wanted to reply with an update to my own progress.

In regards to the books I purchased, I'd appreciate feedback on how to utilize them. As I said, Dummies seems to focus on chords initially, whereas Hal focuses on learning notes, but should I use the two books side by side, or work my way through one, and then the second as a means for re-enforcing what I've already learned?
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I'm glad you got them and like them so far.

The reason I picked both of those are because they both focus on a different kind of technique and playing style. Guitar For Dummies is the plethora of knowledge that you want to have at your disposal; it's an anthology of everything beginner guitar. Hal is more playing focused and less player focused if you know what I mean.

Don't look at it like Chords and Finger work oppose each other; they compliment each other. Chords, musically, are more complex then melodies because that's what you are looking at Melody and Harmony. I'd say dabble in both; being well rounded doesn't suck at all. But for beginning? Start with Hal. It'll teach you all of the basic theory and technique you need for your playing hand (left) and that will transfer over into learning good and healthy playing habits when you move to playing "Rhythm" guitar, or chords.

If you need anything, feel free to PM me.
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The other gents have provided an assload of great resources. I have only the following to say, and note that I'm saying it to a MUSICIAN, somebody with a music background and who has had proficiency on an instrument before. I'd say this totally differently to a non-musician looking to pick up their first instrument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimellow View Post
With guitar, I'd like to teach myself and am strictly interested in having fun and finding out if I even enjoy playing. Thus, I'm seeking a lot less structure than my previous instrumental experience.
Given that, you need to expect a lot slower results. The structure of musical instruction exists for a reason--it's what has produced musicians for literally centuries. Self-teaching, while more relaxed and laid-back, is just flat not going to produce the same level of skill as a set of lessons and a rigorously followed practice plan.

Now: that's NOT a problem. It's fine to go at your own pace and learn more slowly. You just need to know not to expect quick results out of a go-at-your-own-pace instructional method, because expecting that will lead to quick burn-out and disappointment. This doesn't mean you won't be strumming simple songs within a few days of picking up a book. You just won't get into higher-level stuff as fast as if you had a teacher and a structure.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:56 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Does anyone have any advice in regards to seeing a note on the page and knowing its location on the guitar itself? I've been saying the name of the notes as I play them, but I'm struggling a bit in regards to seeing a note on the page and knowing its location on the guitar in a reasonable amount of time.

I find I'm much more likely to play a song when listening to it off the CD than I am reading the notation of the page. I actually think my experience on violin is hindering this process, as the guitar frets and note location on a violin are different, primarily due to the differing number of strings and half-steps the guitar possesses.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:30 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I give students a number of exercises for finding notes on the guitar.

The first is to learn where all the E's are all over the fingerboard, on each string. First, sit down and work them out. Practice playing them one after the other up and down the fingerboard. Try this to a metronome (hard!).

The second is to learn all the "white" notes on a particular string (say the E string). By white notes I mean the white notes on a piano, i.e. the ones that correspond to letters without flats or sharps.

Progressively develop this exercise with the other notes and strings (start with E, D, C, A and G for exercise 1, and work your way up the strings for exercise 2), making sure that you still retain memory of where the other notes are. Soon you will find it much easier to find your way around the fingerboard. I still do exercise 1 to warm up sometimes.
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