ipollux

One of my friends said John Lennon's 'Imagine' was a proponent of communism. I'd never thought about that before he mentioned it. Now I'm not sure ... Thoughts?

ScottKuma

So let's pick it apart, verse by verse...

So he's shooting down religion...that's one of the tenets of Communism, so...this verse gets a "yes".

Ditto on this one, sprinkled with some other altruistic thoughts.

Sure, if you wanted to stretch, this could be a call for comradeship....but I find that to be a bit of a stretch.

I'd classify this one as a Yes, again, as the absence/abolition of personal possessions is one of the basic tenets of Communism. The "sharing all the world" could again be put into that class....

So although yeah, the song definitely tries to get the listener to envision a Communistic utopia, I prefer to think of it as just a beautiful tune full of pie-in-the-sky ideas that will/would never work!

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ipollux

Interesting. It seems like communism is what he had on his mind, though I'm sure it could be interpreted merely as a song about a perfect utopia without the communist connotations.

Baraka_Guru

From Marx & Engel, "The Manifesto of the Communist Party," Chapter 2, 1848:
What's also of interest, is that Karl Marx and John Lennon were both 30 years old when their respective works were published.

Coincidence?!

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mixedmedia

I've always assumed it was. In a light, pop kind of way.

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Yakk

The communist movement has had the 'class struggle' as a core tenant of their ideology -- the song has no such mention.

The song does talk about a post-ownership, post-authoritarian world. It sounds more anarchistic than communist?

Toss in a verse about "Imagine we killed all of the exploiters, who take our labor and keep the means of production away from us", and it would be communist.

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Reese

I thought it was about Nutopia?

I don't think it's promoting communism, I think Lennon did agree with some of the communist ideas but that in and of itself isn't a bad thing. The idea of Communism isn't a bad one. It just doesn't work in practice. Lennon was a dreamer, and an idealist. A doped up Dreamer and Idealist. He was only imagining his perfect world.

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mixedmedia

what do you mean by 'doped up'?

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

jorgelito

Good God, I hope not. At least I have never interpreted it that way. Communism is so despicable it would absolutely ruin that song for me.

To add to Baraka: Lennon, Lenin - homonyms? Coincidence? Hmm....

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Daniel_

I imagine he means that Lennon was on drugs at the time he came up with the idea.

Given that he admitted drug use at the time it's not an unrasonable assumption.

Now all I've got to do is work out what "Cold Turkey"'s about...

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mixedmedia

but what kind of drugs? I'd not heard that John Lennon was a debilitatingly heavy drug user before. I mean, a very large percentage of rock songs were probably written under the influence of something.

'doped up' seems to imply that he wasn't in control of his reasoning, or something. I was just curious. No biggie.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ratbastid

It's easier to say "doped up" than to confront the fact that many intelligent, rational people actually think Communism is a pretty good idea. They're probably all just crazy druggies.

I actually hear the song from a slightly different place--not merely the destruction of personal property or the destruction of religion, but the destruction of all "knowledge", a utopian vision of a world where all our sacred cows are slain, our notions of each other and ourselves are thrown out, and the world, like the man says, can live as one in a space of innocent exploration and invention. It's a beautiful vision.

roachboy

this is among the most overrated songs of the past 40 years.
there is no particular political message to it, beyond a statement that anticipates the rodney king school of thought---can't we all just get along?

there's no statement in it about communism.
there's no statement in it about politics, about a political program, about what is or what can or should be done.
there's no relation between this and a critique of capitalism.

you want an idea of lennon's notions of class warfare, check out "working-class hero"
you want an idea of lennon's ideas concerning revolution, check out that song from the white album.

it's a bit of pop fluff.
that's all it is.

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The_Jazz

I think anyone with a working knowledge of the various forms of communism (Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, Titoism, etc.) knows that Lennon wasn't singing about communism. A utopia that shares some of the goals of communism for sure, but that utopia also shares goals with Christianity (beyond the no religion thing, although it could be read as everyone having the same religion), Bhuddism and a few other philosophies.

So, yeah, communism, not really.

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Craven Morehead

When the song was released I don't recall any connotations being made to communism. And that was at a time when communism was much more widespread than it is now. I never felt that it was. One difficulty in trying to understand songs that are several decades old is you first need an understanding of the times/culture/mood of that moment. It was a perfect song in the post-60's love and peace era.

pan6467

I actually agree with this, mostly. I wouldn't say it was just "pop fluff", it has a great meaning to it, but people try to read more into it. The song is pretty much just about a Utopian society where people just lived and didn't worry about the main causes for war, Religion, Nationality, Money, etc.

What is truly ironic about Lennon is that in many ways he was hypocritical and did not come close to practicing what he preached, of course Yoko had a lot to do with that also. He was a HUGE spender, who was very reclusive at times, because he did not like the "ordinary man". He was very anti-semitic. He was at times very sexist, racist and class elitist. He talked of forgiveness and liked to play victim, but was extremely vindictive and hateful of people he felt slighted him.... ask Tommy Smothers and Paul, to name a few. His private life was very much at odds with what he wrote in his life.

I also believe, judging by everything I have read on him, different biographies, interviews by him and others, etc. many would be surprised by his politics should they have stayed relatively the same, in todays world.

I know from personal experience and I believe many if not all of us do to some extent, it is far easier to preach ideals and great thoughts than to practice them. I relate a lot to Lennon in many aspects, in that, you believe and preach one way but in the end you live almost completely opposite.

I think the vast majority of Lennon's work was not written so much for a change in society, although people read into it as such, but more a change in his own life and his own beliefs. He preached love, yet he was never faithful. He preached how much he loved his children yet for Julian he very rarely talked to him and Sean, while he talked about being a stay at home father and being very caring.... he was living with May Ping in L.A. and had burned holes in his nasal septum from coke.

His was an interesting tale.... but then again, in the end so are many of our lives, we just don't have books and people watching and picking apart our every move.

He was a true every man..... great in what he believed publicly and who tried to live by what he preached, to the best of his ability..... yet, driven mad by what he preached and not able to live to those lofty ideals.

I think in the end George lived closer to what Lennon preached than Lennon could ever come close to.

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Baraka_Guru

Of course it's pop fluff. It was with some irony that I compared and contrasted "Imagine" with the "Communist Manifesto."

I should also post this little bit:

This is from "Revolution," which roachboy aptly mentioned earlier. It was essentially written by Lennon, and I would say these lines in particular demonstrate his criticism of Communism. The song is basically anti-revolution, and he uses Mao's Cultural Revolution (1965) in China as an example. Or maybe it was just easier to rhyme with "Mao" than "Lenin."

Communism is essentially a revolutionary ideology. Lennon railed against this sort of thing. Give peace a chance, and all that.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

jorgelito

Excellent post Pan, very insightful and thoughtful, thank you for sharing.

Have you read the "Many Lives of John Lennon"?

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Reese

I wasn't avoiding anything by saying "doped up." It was a small insignificant quip. It meant nothing other than drugs allowed him to explore thoughts and ideas that he may or may not had if he were drug free. People read too much into things I never said communism was a bad idea, I actually said exactly the opposite. Communism has some good ideas but in practice, it just doesn't work, as has been proven by every communist country ever.

I love the Beatles. I loved Lennon, Harrison and McCartney. Ringo can bugger off.. jk I'm not taking an anti drug stance, hell without drugs most artists' creativity well runs dry after 1-2 albums. I don't think the song has a hidden agenda. It's merely Lennon's personal Utopia.

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guyy

I've always disliked this song, too. It's treacle, maybe not in the McCartney mode, but icky sweet nonetheless.

For all we know, it could be an anarchist song.

There's some vague similarity, but there's class & there's struggle in the socialist anthem. It's not a Youngbloods song, but Imagine could be.

pan6467

Thank you.

The Lives of John Lennon by Alan Goldman? Excellent book. I refer to it many times and read it often always getting something new out of it. There's also a Beatles book I keep in my locker at work, the title alludes me right now, but it's pretty in depth on the band and one of the better books I have found.

I like biographies that show all sides of the man/woman not just the ones that are one dimensional love or hate, because in the end ALL men/women have good and bad in them. Something to love and something to despise.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

jorgelito

You know, it's funny. I heard a lot of criticism of that book about bias, negative portrayal etc. But I liked the different perspectives. It didn't make me feel negatively about John Lennon. Just the opposite. I saw the man, warts and all and very human. It made me feel closer oddly enough.

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"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

pan6467

I agree. I'd heard very negative things about the book, but more than any other on Lennon, this brought me closer to feeling like I "truly knew" the man. It helped erase some hero worship and in fact a times feel sorry for him.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

CinnamonGirl

hmmm... I've heard it referred to as an anthem for atheism, but never for communism. I suppose it would work.

At any rate, it's a beautiful song that I wish more people listened to.

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Willravel

Lennon spoke about what he thought were the positive attributes of communism. He wasn't afraid of speaking his mind, which is a part of why people loved him so much.

roachboy

2 quick things:

a. pan---in my world calling something a bit of pop fluff is not at all a negative thing. "imagine" is far far from my favorite song, but it's not offensive and other folk like it and find it meaningful and that's fine. that's what pop is about, yes?

b. i think yoko remains radically misunderstood. she was and still is sometimes an interesting artist. i have thought for a long time that she was way more interesting than john and that he was lucky to have her around.

but that's more in reference to her own work. with john, she seemed to get to sit around alot. i never really understood what was up with that---it seemed self-indulgent and silly. sometimes i wonder about what the thinking was, then something else comes up like the next sentence i write and i forget.

does goldman (who was in general a tabloid hack--which to be clear is not entirely a bad thing to me) talk about this?

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mixedmedia

I agree with roachboy. I've always thought that Yoko got the shit end of the stick. I like her.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ipollux

I've always liked Yoko as well, so maybe she has a cult following.

In addition, I always preferred Lennon's solo work over what he released with The Beatles.

jorgelito

This is so weird. I also rather like Yoko. Especially once I got to "know" her better through the book and interviews etc. She very educated and thoughtful. While she's not perfect by any means, I think she definitely got the shit end of the stick.

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"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

ASU2003

I agree that utopia would have to be part anarcho-communist, and I don't think he was trying to convey anything but his idea of a perfect world (one that I like too). Didn't his 'no religion' statement cause a lot of controversy?

You could say the federation in Star Trek is the perfect communist organization too. It would be interesting to see a techno-communist peaceful setup (workers are all free to do whatever since machines do their jobs and the machines produce everything society needs). It isn't the economic side of things that I'm against as much as it is the dictator-ship style ruling class.

ipollux

Maybe us intellectuals all like Yoko and it was the hoi polloi majority that spoke out against her. Not trying to sound elitist, but ...

guyy

In Japan intellectuals (and others) are annoyed that she is the world's most famous Japanese person.

There's definitely a bit of sexism in the judgements people make about her.

roachboy

guyy:

i thought the second sentence above was going to be something about collective discomfort with fluxus.

"macunias catalogued his poop, for god's sake..."

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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mixedmedia

Is she the world's most famous Japanese person?

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Nimetic

I just think it's a dreamy utopia thing. If I remember correctly, the album cover has a clouds on it.

You know - I sorta think that anyone who hasn't imagined an "ideal" world at some time or another (or a few times) must be sorta odd. Of course... I was a child when I first heard this song. I would have been imagining a world with no school.

guyy

Yes. In surveys where folks in the street are asked to name Japanese people they know, her name comes up most often. Even with all the Japanese ballplayers in the US, she is probably still more widely known.

Starkizzer

I've always took this song to be about taking away all the things that separate people and looking at what the world would be like if the human race acted as one race and didn't let their petty differences get in the way of everyone treating people as just that...people.

I've always found this song to be beautiful, no matter who sings it the words get to me.

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Justwantedtosay

Regarding "Imagine", John Lennon once admitted, "the song ... is virtually a communist manifesto, even though I am not particularly a communist and I don't belong to any movement. You see, 'Imagine' was exactly the same message, but sugar- coated. Now 'Imagine' is a big hit almost everywhere--anti-religious, anti-nationalistic, anti-conventional, anti-capitalistic song, but because it is sugar coated it is accepted. Now I understand what you have to do.
Put your political message across with a little honey."

So there's your answer!

ScottKuma

Thanks for bringing this back up - I'd completely forgotten about this thread I posted in so long ago! However, I find myself a bit confused at John's quote:

Is he saying that the song IS Communist, but he isn't?

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Plan9

I don't even like you and I totally owe you a beer for this one.

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