vanblah

Sorry for the length of this post.

Someone said something in another thread that I wanted to address. The topic of that thread was completely different than this though so I figured I'll start a new one.

Musicians and bands ... how much do you spend per year on your band?

Me? I'll be completely honest here.

Rent: $250/month for practice space ($3000/year)
Gas: $80/month for gigs (estimate) ($960/year). This could go up depending on how much we tour. $80 is minimum.

General Maintenance for instruments: let's estimate this at $200/year for cables, strings, setups, batteries etc.

PR: $250/year for web presence; EPKs; flyers, contest fees (sometimes) etc.

So far, I'm at $4410.

Let's talk recording.

If you do it yourself you have the cost of the software. For me: $600 one time about three years ago (which I won't include in my total); so a yearly "upgrade fee" of about $150. And pretty much yearly upgrades to the computer for HD ... about $150.

Mastering (if you choose to master): about $150/song at a reputable mastering house at SPEC RATE so ... $1500 ten songs. You could skip this step but I think your buyers would be pretty disappointed when they have to constantly adjust the volume and/or EQ and/or balance of your CD or digital download.

The cost of cd duplication (I mean come on nobody wants to buy a "burned" cd from a band right? They want the real deal if they're gonna fork over hard earned cash). 1200 CDs = $800 with artwork and (cheap) cases ... (cheaper if you don't get artwork / more expensive if you get cardboard cases). You could get 300 CDs, but why bother? It's almost twice the price per CD.

Of course, you can always forgo the CD process and just offer downloads. Yeah, that works at shows when someone comes up to the stage and asks if they can buy a CD. What? I'm gonna say, "No, download it from iTunes?" I'm sure they'll remember in the morning. Music (and art in general) is all about impulse buying.

So now we're at $7020/year.

Let's add a special case, how much do you think it would cost to record a ten song CD in a "real" studio with a "real" producer? I'm not talking A-list; I'm just talking world-class ... Grammy winning (studio and producer) and all that.

It's not as expensive as you might think ... but it's still pretty steep. The answer is $15,000 (spec rate) give or take. And it also depends on the market you're in. I'm in Memphis. That's what it costs here. It could be much, much higher ... but probably not much lower. Remember ... I said Grammy winning; not some dude in a garage somewhere.

So if you did that you'd really be talking almost $20,000. for that year.

Yes, it's the cost of doing business as a band (or musician). Those are just the facts of life for a small self-managed band; and no matter how much money you spend ($7000 vs. $20000 vs $1million) you're still in the red if no one pays for your music.

In the grand scheme of things it's really not much money. Think how much it must cost to be a doctor or dentist or any highly specialized trade; but this isn't a pissing contest anyway. But if you're a doctor you bill your clients and hopefully they have insurance and you get paid somehow (really, you do get paid).

Now, imagine that you hear someone say things like, "I don't think we should have to pay for music. The artists don't get much of the money anyway," or "music should be free," or "Well, if you don't like it just stop playing music."

How would you feel about that ... not as a musician but as a business person in the business of selling your own music? I'm not talking about not making sales because your product is bad ... I'm talking about not making sales because people get it for free.

I have actually had people come up to me at shows and ask if they can HAVE a CD. When I say they are $10 they ask if they can download it. When I say iTunes, they ask if it's anywhere they can download for free. I kid you not.

The fact is, my music is downloadable for free ... it's more important to me to get my music out there (and heard) at this point than it is to get paid for it. Again, it's the cost of doing business. But what really, really burns my ass is that right now I'm giving it away for free, but if I ever "make it" and "get signed" I'll still have to give it away for free because people don't want to "pay the man."

Willravel

One time fees:
Roland MP-500: $1300
Cables: $40
Computer: $2000
Speakers: $100
Headphones: $80
USB Flash Drive: $20

Yearly fees:
$0

I write music, perform and record it, and then give it to my friends for free via USB flash drive that they give back. Because I do it as a hobby and have a paying career, it's just about enjoying the composition process and having people enjoy my music. It's a lot better that way, IMHO (not that there's anything wrong with career musicians, they've got huge balls).

Martian

I think there needs to be a distinction made between 'willing to pay the artist' and 'unwilling to pay at all.' I love music, and it's a huge part of my life and who I am. Independent artists are always going to get support from me, particularly those who choose to make a career out of it. For the record, I have in my cd player right now a CD which features one of our own forum members, who is also part of a self-managed band.

I go to shows as often as I'm able and will gladly pay to do so. Sure, some of the top name artists are over-priced (tickets to see Eric Clapton in Toronto were more than $200 per, last time I checked) but I can understand that it's a result of supply and demand. And when I can see the Arcade Fire at a smaller venue for $35, support an independent band with my money and have a great evening all at the same time? That's about as good as it gets, as far as I'm concerned.

Personal feelings aside, the simple and objective fact of the matter is that online distribution is now the way things are done in the music industry. CDs are still an important aspect, as you point out, and probably will be for the foreseeable future; on the other hand, the world has embraced online distribution models, even where the artists or labels have not. I'm sympathetic to your concerns, but upset about it or not, you can't avoid online music and file sharing; your only options are to go with it or be left behind.

I'm not in a band right now; currently my music exists purely for my own enjoyment. This may change in the future; I would dearly love to make a living by making music, but unfortunately it's not an option for me at this point. Were I in a band, however, I would be very happy to see people enjoying my music and would be more than willing to offer it for download in order to facilitate that. There are methods for bands to offer music for small amounts of money and still make a fair bit from it; Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead are the first two to try allowing fans to set their own price, but I doubt they'll be the last. Further, from a business perspective it's equally if not more important for young or obscure bands to increase their brand recognition in any way possible. People won't buy your CDs or tickets or t-shirts or anything if they don't know you exist.

Out of curiosity, what does your Grammy winning producer offer that a local one doesn't? A Grammy doesn't guarantee that everything he touches will turn to gold, and the expense of hiring him is only justified if you expect that he will increase your revenue by more than he costs you.

As a business man, here's how I'd approach your question.

Costs are the same as you list:

Rent - $3000 / year
Gas $960 / year
Instruments - $200 / year
PR - $250 / year

For our agreed-upon total so far of $4410. CDs are worth examining separately, since they have their own cost and profit margin. Let's do that.

I'm not going to go over your cd costs individually. For now let's just assume that there's absolutely nothing wrong with your numbers and take $2610 as the cost of producing 1200 CDs per year. Note that this does include mastering as a reoccurring cost, which assumes that you're producing one 10-track cd per year, but there's no reason why an independent band couldn't be so prolific as that.

So we have our cost of $2610. You said yourself that you charge $10 per CD. So, in order for CDs to make a profit rather than a loss, you need to sell more than ($2610/$10) or 261 CDs per year. Given that you're doing a new pressing of 1200 every year and that you dismiss lots of 300 as not being cost effective, I think we can safely say that you're probably moving more than that. In fact, if we assume a per unit cost of $1.00 per CD based on your assertion that producing a run of 300 CDs costs "almost twice as much" per unit, we can see that it's still more cost effective to use the smaller runs for annual sales numbers up to 600 units, meaning it's safe to assume that you're moving more than that, probably at least 700. Therefore, we can state that CDs are making you ((700*10)-$2610) or $4390. Applying that back to our original number of $4410, we see that you need only sell $20 worth of tickets in order for your band to turn a profit that year. Given that, I would further conclude that CDs, rather than being a means to make a profit themselves, are actually a vehicle that serves as advertising and also covers expenses, allowing you to pocket most or all of the money made from playing live shows. When viewed from that perspective, file sharing is actually a blessing, since while it doesn't add to your income, it doesn't add to your expenses either; it's essentially free advertising and is extending the effectiveness of advertising offered by your CDs farther than would ever be possible by conventional means. So long as you continue to sell your 700 or so CDs per year (actually 703 if we want them to cover costs entirely) then file sharing is really your best friend, since it will get more people out to your shows where you really get to make your money. The whole thing is scalable too, since larger costs generally denote larger venues, which means more tickets sold and more money made.

Oh, and those people who ask you for a free download? There's two ways of looking at them. The first is to see them as ignorant free loaders, which is apparently what you've chosen. The second is to listen to what they say to you and interpret it as a message. They're telling you that they don't think your CD is worth $10. If it's only the odd one I wouldn't worry about it to much, but if it happens a lot then maybe you need to either 1) come up with a way to add value to your CD or 2) figure out a way to distribute your music that is more cost effective and therefore allows you to set a lower price.

I like the second way of looking at it myself, but then it appears that you and I have very different ideas about how the music business should work.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

percy

You know vanblah, it isn't just music. Working in marketing/advertising our clients expect us to be on all the time. If we actually billed people for all the work we did, we would be out of business.

I am constantly asked to review or change things, usually after we have billed our clients. Unless it is a major change, that is work we do to keep the clients happy. And even then, just like music, although people don't see all the work it takes to complete a project, they still feel compelled to question the work, or the value of it and expect what they think is fair.

I download songs that I want to listen to, then after awhile, delete them from my pc. I don't have a pc running 24/7 getting free downloads just because I can.

I also buy newer artists cd's and believe they need the support.

I deplore hearing from snotty nosed kids who feel it is their right to get everything for free just because their presence graces the earth and who constantly go on about the RRIA when they completely haven't got a clue about the facts and are just repeating nonsense because it is difficult to formulate an opinion when your underwear is sticking out of your pants that has its crocth at the knees.

Albeit, the RRIA missed the boat on downloads.

I wonder if all those who expect free music have parents who are doctors or dentists or whatever. Maybe we can go to them and say we had our teeth cleaned before and we paid for it so now it should be free. Or with doctors. How about mechanics. Why should I pay for oils changes all the time. Lots of oil in the world. Should be free.

But maybe those people who feel so entitled will work in an industry one day and not receive full compensation from their work. It'll probably hit home when they can't pay their bills and will have to work two or three jobs to survive, if they don't leave that industry altogether

Just an opinion. Going to download a Springsteen concert off of Tapecity now.

vanblah

Martian, I don't think we have very different ideas about how the music business should work. I think we agree that musicians should get paid, presumably by the fans who like them. I would never expect payment from someone who did not like the music I produce.

I said in my original post that my music is certainly available for download for free. I whole-heartedly agree that digital distribution is the preferred method of delivery for music for the PRESENT not just the future.

Your assumption that we sell more than 300 CDs per year is wrong. We give away 300 to 500 CDs+/- per batch to various magazines; music critics and DJs that's why a batch of 300 is not viable. Again it's cost of doing business. We've sold maybe 150 of our current CD and maybe an equal number of downloads.

What does the Grammy winning producer get us that a local doesn't? Well, first off, he is local. You can't spit in Memphis without hitting a Grammy winning "somebody." To answer your question: the difference he got is almost immediately apparent in quality. Would I do it the same way again? Not with my money.

I'm not going to go into the legalities of the whole thing but suffice to say we really had a reason to go the direction (Grammy direction) we did at the time ... it just didn't work out as planned. We gambled ... we didn't win big.

To answer your question about patrons at the shows we play: I don't see those people who ask for downloads or free CDs as anything in particular ... to me, it's just the nature of the beast these days. Besides, they're broke--just like me and everybody else. If the person comes across as nice and I can verify that they actually paid the cover fee I usually give them the CD for a beer ... if they act like they are entitled to it I don't do anything in particular. Perhaps I shouldn't have said iTunes ... I really meant ANY of the preferred digital distributors. I know some people have a problem with iTunes. We're on about everything you can get your hands on.

I would like to make one thing VERY clear. I am not at all complaining about downloading music or digital distribution in general. I'm not even complaining about "feeloading" ... I just want to get a feel for how many people realize the amount of work is involved in being an INDEPENDANT working band. And start a discussion maybe about how to solve this beast.

Martian

My apologies, sir. I am a very vocal proponent of digital distribution methods and often find myself being attacked as a 'pirate' or a 'thief' as a consequence of this. I tend to get a little defensive at times. It does sound as though we're largely in agreement as to how things should work. As to how to solve the problems... well, that's the exciting part. The old way is going and a new way is needed. The music industry has entered the wild west.

I actually have some ideas on this, but it's nothing concrete enough to be shared yet. It is embryonic, at best. I will also relate that the reason I'm not currently trying to make a living off of music was because I'm all too aware of how much work it is and until recently have not seen it as being worth the payoff; it's more cost effective for me to just do it as a hobby instead. I think that's changing now and I may have a go at it, but it's one of those things that time will tell.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

aberkok

Man I wish I'd sold 150 discs... currently I'm sitting at no more than 30. It's really tough. Funny I'm coming to this thread today, when frustrations are high. It'll be nice to vent.

Currently, it's hard for me to differentiate what I spend on my band and what I spend on myself as a musician. Do my instruments count when they're not specifically for the band?

I don't intend on recording in a studio every year (or ever again until I learn how to sell the discs I already have), but let's take last year when I made the album as a typical year.

studio - $1200
duplication - $900
artwork/printing - $800

postage (mailing to radio, reviews) - $350

Other costs, like emergency cable purchases on gigs and stuff is usually pretty negligible. There are certain costs which I'd like to be paying, like maybe paid rehearsals for the band (one day...one day...) but most importantly, it seems like I should be paying more for promotion, possibly hiring a publicist for press releases and publicist type stuff, and maybe spending a little on postering services.

So yeah... it's tough to be going at this with no capital.

__________________
!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com

Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Martian

That's the trick of it, really. All the rehearsals and gigs and CDs in the world don't do you a lick of good if nobody knows who you are. I actually really enjoyed my copy of Hyprovisation (even though I'm not sure I spelled that right) and thought that musically it was quite well done. On the other hand, you have a particularly tough time of it because contemporary jazz is something of a niche market when taken in the context of the music industry as a whole, so your listening base is much smaller to begin with.

Past a certain point, your technical skills are largely irrelevant. You can't get very far if you're a bad musician, but a competent musician with good press will go farther than a great musician with bad or no press. Thus, the key to being successful in music isn't to be the best player possible, but rather to do the best job of getting your brand out there that you possibly can. Free downloads, youtube videos, and any other way you can possibly imagine to make yourself more visible is really the key to it. Unfortunately, there's no direct link between musical ability and business savvy; although some musicians know how to market themselves and manage their brand, the vast majority are pretty clueless. Traditionally this has been the role of the record labels, which have been therefore highly necessary, but their refusal to embrace digital technology makes signing with one of the Big Four a losing proposition right now. The advantage to the musician in being independent comes with a hefty amount of responsibility as well, so that doesn't work for everyone (and in fact works for very few, by my reckoning). There needs to be a middle ground, and it doesn't exist yet in any coherent or widespread form.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

jth

oh this should be depressing, lets estimate

Instruments over the course of my life, estimation aproximate value at $10,000
Amplifiers, Cables, Tuners, metronomes, Effects and general accessories estimation $5,000

I only took a few lessons before I went to University so I won't bother to count that

Undergraduate Degree (B.Music Jazz Studies) = $35,000 aprox
Masters Degree (M. Music Jazz Studies) = $30,000 aprox

Suits, Tuxedo, Shoes, Gig clothing I'd guess another $2,000
CD's, Books, DVD's, Laptop, at least another $4,000.

Luckily with the exception of the cost of Education most of these other things I have been able to pay for in full or in part (Family support or as partial gifts) through my musical endevours in the form of Giging and Teaching.

Throw only probably another $3,000 for studio time and Dulpication in a few months for my debut CD release.... yeah I'm in the hole pretty deep.

However when I am done all this then things go into payback mode, ie paying back school money etc. I'm not sure how much that's going to cost per month, probably a lot (I'm guessing around 1,000 a month) plus rent, other bills etc.

I sure hope this Masters degree thing works out and I can get a college gig hahaha

__________________
"A real leader faces the music, even if he doesn't like the tune." - unknown quote

vanblah

Good lord ... I don't even want to BEGIN thinking about how much money I've spent on my music career since the beginning.