Can someone argue why rap music "doesn't" suck?
 

Maybe I just hate like 98% of the music that people pass off as acceptable but it feels like to me, that rap, most of it anyway, passes off the lowest common denominator of creativity.

Lets talk about musical composition for a moment. If you took away the lyrics of your favorite hip hop/rap song, what do you have? Seems to me, in most cases, it's a fairly thin layer of music. A beat, a bassline, and maybe, maybe, a lead.

I come from a genre that gets the MOST flak for being repetitious (that'd be electronic), yet anyone who's serious about music can tell you, hiphop/rap should easily, in most cases, be winning that title day in and day out.

I don't mean to turn this in to a pissing contest between genre's or in to a musical elitism thread, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the kind of people who will come in to this thread and do just that.

of course some people are going to be like "but rap isn't rap without lyrics" and yes, that is true, but again, on a strictly compositional level, before lyrics are even applied, what do you have? seriously.

I spent 3 hours down at the guitar center today in the pro-audio section looking at different peices of gear and it seemed like everyone that came in and walked out with something was an aspiring wannabe rap artist. Even the guys behind the counter fit the stereotype and seemed kind of put off when I mentioned I was in to Electronic Music. (yeah thanks you can put that Korg EMX-1 back, I think i'll order it online)


erg, I understand that sometimes simplicity is all it takes to get people moving, but there are people who are building thier mansions and "bling" on this simplicity and I see far more deserving complex artists go unnoticed trying to make their way on myspace and well. Man, It almost hurts to see that.

I guess it all comes down to a matter of personal opinion here and there in some regards....

eh, then again, people who say lyrics are the bread and butter of rap... I watch this and weep.

Rap itself isn't music. It's by definition Rhythm And Poetry. It's just poetry with a beat. Is the poetry good? Rarely, but sometimes. Are the beats good? Again, rarely, but sometimes.

The trick is to look beyond mainstream rap. Look for underground or indie hip-hop, and you'll find artistry, both in sampling, layering, rhyming, rhythm, and lyrics....the latter of which is often political, speaking about Black culture (i.e. diaspora, poverty, racism, violence, community, slavery, education, post-colonialism, etc, etc, etc.).

Unfortunately, I haven't extensively explored the rich culture of meaningful hip-hop, but I know it's there, and I've heard a lot that is beautiful. Just like willravel said, rap (e.g. hip-hop) is essentially poetry to a beat, but with added rhythms, hits, and the occasional melody. Much of it prides itself on "borrowing" or appropriating popular culture as a way of either undermining it or reinventing it for its familiarity. But it all boils down to lyrics and rhythms.

There is a lot of bad rap out there (read: gangsta rap), but there is also a lot of bad rock.... really bad rock. I'm sure you know of a lot of bad electronic music out there, or at least genres that give your preferred genre a bad name by unfortunate association (read: techno, dance). Good hip-hop has this same challenge. As does good indie/alternative/progressive rock.

If you want to find some good hip-hop, try browsing the site metacritic.com and find some of the highly rated indie hip-hop albums, and check them out. I'm not sure what's been released or reviewed lately, but some of the previous albums from other years I've checked out, and some of them are quite good. Another option would be to look for free .mp3 samples of indie artists online through various sites. I have no recommendations for any; I've been out of that loop for a while now.

Easy racial-stereotype answer: Because you're a cracker.

...

Why is death metal that screams about satan good?

Why was Metallica so good? Why do people by Britney Spears albums?

Why are the Misfits living gods in my universe?

Because we all have opinions of what is good.

*cranks some Rancid*

Do not extrapolate generic crunk rap (yay MC Lars!) accross the entire genre. I'd make a more intelligent posts, but everyone pretty much already has their opinoins set in stone (even your subject line is loaded), and noone will be able to argue you into liking something you've decided sucks.

Alternate answer:

"Yo-yo, so the big booty hoes shake that junk in their trunk, fo shizzle."

...

Why women like this music is beyond me... but as a guy? I can see the wet dream world of a crunk rapper: "I got girls, I got stuff, I'm the bestest ever."

Some of my bestest friends are ironic Gangstas.

^^ like he said ^^ and others before,and will after.

"I'm sorry mama"

There are a couple of "rappers" doing really well in Canada right now: k-os and Buck 65. Much of the reason is because they mix genres in with their rap, including jazz, reggae, funk, rock, etc. The end result is something fresh. Oh, and the rhymes are good.

subject may be loaded but if you read the post I'm sure you'll see i'm open to your debates TM.

Try me. I just want someone to open my eyes here, Give me examples, toss me a youtube video or a rhapsody link, show some effort and stand by your genre of choice, champion the fucking genre like you love it if it means anything to you. It's how I treat what I do, and I like a lot of different genres, I like to think of myself as somewhat rounded, but this is just one slice of the pie that I can't seem to want to eat after the various samples i've been fed.

Dude, don't make me bust out MC Hammer. That would be all bad.

Try some 'Trick Daddy', see what ya think.

The following video contains mature 9-11 subject matter.
Viewer discretion is advised.

"Bush Knocked Down the Towers" (Lyrics included!)




Not the best example, but is shows that aggressive "gangsta-style" rap doesn't always have to be about money, bling, bullets, and hos.

I'll look for something better, but this is a start. (i.e. examples of how rap is often about the message, not the music.)

EDIT:
Same artists (Immortal Technique), different message. Still political. Better example.
Course language, violence. Viewer discretion still advised.


Sweatshop Union "Thing About It" (So uplifting :))


Sabac Red "Speak Militant"



(no embedding available) *This one's pretty good.


This isn't a bad sample to start. This is along the lines of what I was talking about.

Yeah.. it's kinda like the three elements of the most popular action movies,
I call it the Three B's (bullets- boobs- bombs) Damn that would be a good name for a band would it not?

Thank you Baraka Guru, it's all about the message for me.
Just saw the second video you put up, thanks again for taking the time to do that.

I like the music. This is what I think is wrong with rap/hip hop culture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigger :cringe:

Jack the Lad, if you could give an example of how this link affects you personally in your opinion, I might understand a bit better.

This whole topic could do a wheelie on glare ice rather quickly I imagine.

I sense strong emotions..Am I wrong?

I am going to start a band called the 'Animal Crackers'

Like all things and all other types of music, rap doesn't suck if you learn to appreciate it in it's proper context.

But first things first, that song by T-Pain and most of everything else that you hear on the radio or see in videos really shouldn't be considered rap. For the most part, they are, for lack of a better term, gangstafied pop.

So while they may seem to be the lowest common denominator of creativity, you'll have to realize that the songs weren't created with the intention of displaying the artist(s) range of musical capabilities or pushing the envelope any further. They are created for the purpose of being catchy enough to be remembered and trendy enough for kids to dance to. And if the song comes along with it's own dance then that's just icing on the cake:

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For someone who makes music as typically ambiguous as electronic music, I highly doubt you're incapable of answering your own question. Even with the pop-rap I described above, you can still take away quite a bit from the music alone if you're willing enough to appreciate it in it's own context.

But if you're looking for artists who appear to put exactly as much effort into producing the beats and underlying tracks as they do in writing the lyrics then just listen to anything produced by El-P, Aesop Rock, Blockhead, or the Rza to name a few of my favs.

You can't pin any of that on the artist who made the song about bling. They didn't go platinum by repeatedly purchasing their own albums - millions of people independently chose to do so and while it may seem that there are more deserving artists out there, who are we to say that whatever their fans take from the music isn't valid or truly significant?

No, it's a matter of opinion in all regards to the subject.

And I also disagree completely with Willravels assertion that rap isn't music but rather rhythm and poetry.

My recommendations:

Aesop Rock - None Shall Pass

On the track "Bring Back Pluto", Aesop draws a parallel between the fact that Pluto is no longer classified as one of the planets of our solar system and the pressure that he feels as an artist and what people expect of him and his career.

El-P - I'll Sleep When You're Dead

On this album El-P collaborates with everyone imaginable - from Trent Reznor to The Mars Volta to Chan Marshall of Cat Power to create one of the most dense and epic rap albums ever.

..

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It's nothing too deep really, just a peeve, and it's probably more applicable to young English middle class 'wiggers'.

I'm all for multiculturalism, but I guess what really annoys me about 'wiggers' is that they tend to - at least in my experience - assimilate aspects of black culture in the most crass way possible. They often re-inforce negative stereotypes, become a parody the way of life they aspire to live, and pretend to be something that they're not. It's a free world - people can act the way they like - but, for example, I respect rappers (of any colour or creed) a lot more when they talk about their REAL lives, not just violence or bling...unless that IS their real life, of course.

Ice T's appraisal of Vanilla Ice springs to mind: 'He says he's 'street'? What street?!? Sesame Street?'

*EDIT* I'm not saying white people can't rap. Eminem is not a wigger. He speaks with his own voice in a hip hop context. I'm talking about posh teenagers, with names like Tarquin or Timothy, who think they're 'gangstas' if they wear tracksuits, speak like Snoop Dogg, and grab their crotches alot.

The Streets tell it like it is:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/veAIHDGghP4&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/veAIHDGghP4&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

By the way, I hope no one is offended by the term 'wigger' (it's only ever been used in a comical context, to the best of my knowledge, but I'll gladly delete my post if it's deemed inappropriate.)

Boyakasha! ;)

you can't judge all kinds of music equally. to say that there isn't "deep composition" in rap is looking at it all wrong. it's a musical form that originated on the street with NO music whatsoever (except maybe a human beat-box).

that said, there is some pretty complex production in a lot of Dr. Dre produced tracks from the late 90's

The correct answer.

In fact, I would go beyond it being about black culture. Hiphop and rap is now a global lingua franca for the dispossed and disenfranchised youth. Barring the monied superstars pushed by the big record labels, naturally. There is some excellent hiphop coming out of China and Siberia, for example. Ghana has some hot stuff too, and even Indonesia has a fledgling scene.

There is also very much an underground, DIY ethic, which some fans of punk will no doubt appreciate. Most new tracks and artists in rap spreads by word and taking part in rap battles and the like, not by being groomed by record execs.

A couple of decent English speaking examples of decent rap would be Jedi Mind Tricks, Black Twang, Roots Manuva, El-P (whose last album dispels any myths about rubbish backing music. Unless you hate Mars Volta), Sage Francis and Saul Williams.

In fact, I better stop there, before I get carried away.

Hmmm, it seems kinda stupid to say that only those with a dark pigmentation who grew up in the ghetto (street cred) can create certain types of music.

These kinda comments perpetuate racism if not stereotypes.

This is an excellent point. I used Black culture as one example. There certainly are other cultures that use the form to express themselves to get their messages out.

Another great point. I'm not sure if this would always generate racism, but it certainly draws undue and unfounded criticism, and is why I'm wary of the term wigger. If you've listened to enough Eminem and The Streets, you'd know that the genre isn't impenetrable to White folk. If anything, it's a mode of communication for urban youth in general. Blues, jazz, and rock took similar paths: They started as Black genres and branched out to virtually every walk of life.

threadjack:

Are black and white proper nouns?

listen to Dizzee Rascal instead of 50 Cent

what do you know about boiling a kettle for a bath?

nope sorry..........no argument here.

*listens to Bono wail*

"Yeaaah, yeaaah, yeaaah, yeaah... AND I FEEEEEEL!"

*listens to Pantera scream*

"Ohhhh fucking hostile!"

...

You were saying?

If there were rappers out there on the level of Rudyard Kipling, this would be a different conversation. There aren't. The few rappers with some insight or ability are considered to be outstanding because of the field they play in. I'm not talking about TI or Kanyeayie West. I'm talking about 2pac or Mos Def, rappers that are able to reasonably articulate something beyond "I'm an alcoholic", "I enjoy the presence of promiscuous women", "my car is worth more than your house", "I live in a low income area", or "I am a murderer". But really if you compare the artistic abilities of even the best rappers to any poet of merit in history, they fall short in a way that can only be described as "das fucked up, yo".

No, they're common nouns.

Common noun: American
Proper noun: Crompsin

I capitalize Black and White to distinguish the cultural entities from the common colours. I mean Black and White people, not black and white.

It saves me from having to type out "of African descent" and "of the Caucasoid race." :p

Poetry is dead, willravel. But, seriously, we can't expect rappers to produce something akin to what came out of a stuffy British guy from the turn of the 20th century. Rappers that are good are coming out with statements about things that bother them and weigh them (and their "people") down. Not the best example for content, necessarily, but do you think it's easy to piece together what comes out of Eminem's mouth? To deny that he's good in some capacity would convince me you don't have a full enough understanding of language and how it works.

I would have preferred you compare rappers to the likes of Langston Hughes, considering the culture and the issues of their respective art forms. I don't know of any rappers that would hold up to that, though. But it's not like I know rap that well.

I'd give a twenty one gunshot salute
With the toy rifle that you bought me but it won't shoot
And all is well because there's been one too many shots
The sterile robots want to talk to me about detox
Stop the presses, there's been an update
Delivered via 1:30 AM phone call
When an only half-informative source talks discretely
Meet me... at the family room on the side of the Intensive Care Unit
Immediately, I carry a tune
The sirens so loud, can't hear my music
Keep free... of negative thoughts, everything'll be fine
We all assume... That it would go back to the way things were
That it would go back to normal soon
Saw the moon in a way that I never seen it before
When I looked up that night into the sky wondering why
Lookin' for answers, guess I ain't asked right
I'm guessin most of y'all out there know exactly what that's like
What that's like, now tell me what's that like?

It's like a whirlwind of emotions that occurs when moms and dads fight
It's like when a girl grins, an emotion of hers
That holds your arm, and grabs tight
Hurl him into the ocean, one of them cold sweat heat flash types
But extreme fluctuations and temperature changes
Have been known to crack pipes...
...crack pipes...crack pipes...

Meet me-- half way and i'll go that extra length just to help your strength
Meet me-- at the AA meeting, needing to take more than 12 steps
Bring me to your hiding place, so I can face your vice grip
I'll chisel every single monkey off your back with this ice pick
Come meet up with me on the sidelines when the game is over just to say hello
Then afterwards, backstage to let me know that you enjoyed the show
And go to grandma's house for Sunday dinner
Sit at the head of the table, take away the fatal flaw
you made the day before, I seen you bleed
Meet me-- on Christmas Eve, we can fight but make up before you leave
Make visits with the rest of those who rest in pieces of my dreams
Meet me at the fork in the road where lost souls get indecisive
Meet me at the crossroads so I can have someone to walk into the light with

_____________

Go write something better than that about loss and then come back and make your point again?

So much for being facetious. I brought a sharp stick to that sword fight. :thumbsup:

...

Mom! He called me a proper noun!

Or I could tell you that my job is not to rap or to write poetry, but that doesn't mean I can't tell that lyrics are crap compared to real poets. Would you really compare the above with Walt Whitman?

Pfft, haven't you read any Poe lately?

"Hark," quoth muthafuckin' blackbird, "Nevermo', bitches!"

...

Yeah, not too many rappers come straight outta the mean streets of Oxford.

Not many "real" poets can hold up to Walt Whitman, so why would you do that of rappers? You're missing the point here. Rap is not the poetry Whitman was concerned with. What would you say if I told you that Homer pwns Whitman? What is the point of that?

If anything, rappers are doing what was pioneered by William Wordsworth: "Speaking in the language of common man." People in inner-city Detroit don't speak like Whitman did; why should they rap like him? Besides, Whitman was mainly free verse, rap needs a strong 4X4 beat, often with rhymes.


Holy shit, Crompsie. You've got to stop killing me with this stuff. :lol:

Do Shakespeare! Do Shakespeare!

THE world below the brine,
Forests at the bottom of the sea, the branches and leaves,
Sea-lettuce, vast lichens, strange flowers and seeds, the thick tangle openings, and pink turf,
Different colors, pale gray and green, purple, white, and gold, the play of light through the water,
Dumb swimmers there among the rocks, coral, gluten, grass, rushes, and the aliment of the swimmers,
Sluggish existences grazing there suspended, or slowly crawling close to the bottom,
The sperm-whale at the surface blowing air and spray, or disporting with his flukes,
The leaden-eyed shark, the walrus, the turtle, the hairy sea-leopard, and the sting-ray,
Passions there, wars, pursuits, tribes, sight in those ocean-depths, breathing that thick-breathing air, as so many do,
The change thence to the sight here, and to the subtle air breathed by beings like us who walk this sphere,
The change onward from ours to that of beings who walk other spheres.

___

Well, I'll think a while about which means more to be about my life - and let you know.

But poetry is personal, the only poet I have ever read and enjoyed is Philip Larkin, but many rap songs have affected me emotionally.

The appreciation of art is mostly subjective. There are millions of people who listen to rap music, far fewer today reading this character you call "Walt Whitman". So is rap better because it is more popular?

What is the criteria to judge by? Grammatical correctness? Popularity? Or just what each person thinks and feels?

The fact is that rap does represent, whatever colour the people are, the working classes, the youth - perhaps when one is in a position like you where you plan to send your children to private school and so on, it is harder to identify?

My original point was not entirely a joke... what DO you know about boiling a kettle for a bath? This music represents an entire generation that the middle class and well off and the establishment like you do not even know exists.

I'd have to agree. My point, though, is that most rap is about the level of poetry one would expect from an emo guy with black fingernails who plays his guitar outside the band room back in high school, if that. The youtube video in the OP illustrates that point pretty damn well. My point is that rap would do well with people who were concerned with art, not marketing. It's the same issue I have with pop, only pop is actually music.
Life imitates art more than not in this case though, not the other way around. No one really said 'hrr' instead of 'here' before Nelly. That aside, I doubt that Whitman spoke the way he wrote. If he did, it'd be really crazy to talk to him.
Me: Hey, Walt. How was your weekend?
Walt Whitman: YOU who celebrate bygones!
Who have explored the outward, the surfaces of the races—the life that has exhibited itself...
Me: What?

You just equated Walt Whitman to something like talking to a drunken homeless person.

Yes, but considering how many drunk homeless people I talk to it's not necessarily a negative. There's this guy downtown names Spooky (best name ever, he was born on Halloween), and he tells the best stories I've ever Walt Whitnessed.

Excellent points, willravel. I think it's important to note that rap is a popular art form. To see what has worth requires going underground. Poetry has always been like that. Lord Byron vs. Samuel Taylor Coleridge! Go! (i.e. One was a lord, the other a well-known drug addict.)

I know Whitman didn't talk like he did in his poetry, but his use of language in everyday speech had an influence in his work, as it does with rappers and their own work. It is the difference that they become obsessed with. What is the difference between poetry and speech? A question for the ages. This is what even rappers explore. (Your Nelly example is suitable.) What you see is that art and life borrow from each other; it always has. The memes of Whitman's day differ from the rapper's memes of today, but the mechanics are similar. Rappers don't rap at the dinner table to their mothers. Especially if it's Thanksgiving.

Gone are the days when we wrote: "And Apollo, riding his emblazoned chariot down from lofty Olympus...."

Now, we simply say: "The sun was shining."

It is within the progression from one extreme to the next that we see the marked differences between Whitman's and Nelly's respective lines.

Hamlet in duh Hiz-ouse! Act II, Scene II

"What uh piece uh work are my brothas! How proud in brains! How end-luss in bling and in Escalades, how frontin' and representin', rollin' like God's homies, in reasonable anxious fear like his holiness, Biggie Smalls, in an SUV! The beautilicious of the Earf! The uprightness of my dawgs! And yet, to me, what is this Kool-Aid of ashy elbows? My brothas don't please me no more; no, nor my bitches neither, yo... though, by your flashin' grille, you seem to say fo'shizzle!"

Whatever, Baraka. We know how you answer the phone.

I don't think you're giving the medium enough credit. I suspect that rap could be an instrument of genius, if instrumented by a real maestro; someone with a ton of talent and skill with our language. It's this bar that I set which I suspect is why I am left wanting with the stars or even underground stars of today. Is it wrong to imagine Dylan Thomas being filmed fishbowl with Timbaland in the background repeating every few phrases in the break?

I see your basic concern, and in many ways, I have the same. As one whose educational background includes poetry, I crave something from the hip-hop genre that I'm not getting. Maybe it exists, but maybe I'm too White and middle-class to know where to find it. Basically, I'd like to see someone with the structural/musical talent of Eminem but with the lyrical talent and cultural sensitivities of Langston Hughes. If hip-hop is to be saved from the gangstas, this is the kind of artist that will do it.

By the by, your Dylan Thomas/Timbaland example is as silly, yet entertaining, as my saying Flood should produce John Williams (the Australian classical guitarist). I smell a maaaash-UP! Where's my Macbook?! :p

There's your answer right there. Stop listening to this over-commercialized, gangbanger bullshit. That song that was linked earlier in this thread by Soulja Boy is a good example of garbage. Seriously there is a plethora of underground hip hop out there that is way better than that. Check out De La Soul, Dilated Peoples, Mos Def, Atmosphere, Binary Star, Blackalicious, Jurassic 5, Eyedea & Abilities, Jedi Mind Tricks. There's tons more than just those I listed.

I don't really know if The Roots fall into the underground category, but check them out as well. They're one of my favorite hip hop groups.

:lol:

I like most of the people youre quoting, but would also recomend people look at the UK scene

Dizzee, Sway, Mitchell Brothers, Kano, Lethal Bizzle, Wiley....

And don't forget Jehst as he's easily one of the best lyricists to emerge from the UK hip-hop scene.

OK I think i'm starting to formulate a more solid position on my issue with "rap" then.

every single video up until "The Streets" had me ignoring the lyrics and focusing on what I was talking about in the OP, which was, rap MUSIC, not rap itself. There was the interesting point brought up of it becoming a music form from which it was not originally, it was simply spoken word with no music, that is a good point. I guess when you couple simplicity with simplicity it sounds like simplicity. For the record, I like The Streets, I've heard them before and I didn't really think of it as rap for some reason.

Although this is what becomes mainstream perhaps and why I hear these 1 hit wonders and shake my head in disdain at it all. So.. lets say I take in to account the lyrics. Crompsin quotes some simple lyrics from other genre's I understand, but there is a difference between singing as an expressive outlet and simply trying to sound tough and say stuff as quickly as possible to impress some witless idiot who thinks it's cool because he isn't over his fast and furious phase in life.

But there we have it, theres no way for me to be like "here's the black and white answer" to my question. Some people are going to think that simplicity in music and simplicity in lyricism is going to equate to good music, some of those people will be producers, execs, and PR types, followed by those who purchase said music.

Apparently I can either just accept that "different strokes for different folks" or I can be bitter about it and think that the majority of people just don't have a clue.

SO on a tangent, this thread has become about lyrics, something I was aiming to avoid simply because, again, I was talking about music and music alone, my point is, speaking/rapping or whatever doesn't carry any emotion to me, it's just emotionless in the interest of speedy delivery, or it reminds me of some middle schooler trying to sound tough.

I guess I have to hold rap up to a higher standard when it comes to picking the songs I can listen to and enjoy than some other genres for that reason.

Doesn't matter how good your lyrics are if your music is bland and your delivery is coming across like a cracked out kid entering puberty.

all rap lyrics aren't going to be brilliant. there are more words in a four minute rap song than there are in most 10 song rock albums.

Or as I said earlier, you can learn to appreciate it in it's own context.

But yet you can find emotion and meaning behind the various blips and blops of most electronic music?

It's the same reason why you wouldn't listen to the Ramones for incredible musicianship - you can't expect the music to serve a purpose that it wasn't intended to. I can guarantee that if you put in the effort and check out some of the artists mentioned in this thread then you'll find something you like.

You can't defend rap so you attack electronica? Classy.

BTW, you'd be lucky to hear some of Shauks stuff. He's a talented musician (electronica being music, not poetry), and he's a way better electronica composer than I am.

NSFW: A great electronica parody of gansta rap.
 

This is an excellent parody of gansta rap videos. By parody, I don't necessarily mean Weird Al style, but more of the classic uses of parody, which isn't necessarily comical (though it is), but is essentially critical.

There is a lot to read in this video.

Aphex Twin "Windowlicker" (Over 10 min.) Big download (96.8 mb), but worth it for the context of this discussion. (Try right clicking, and "Save As")

Also available on YouTube, but their service isn't working currently. Be sure to watch the long version.

again skafe, you're failing to separate music from lyrics.

I'm not going to defend the fact that I can find emotion in sounds without lyrics. Because that's absurd to say that you can't. Ever hear a whistle? and alarm clock? an air raid siren? all of these elicit different initial base instinct reactions in a person before your brain kicks in and regulates the reaction you have.

I mean for fucks sake man, entire movie soundtracks are there to add emotion to scenes and don't have to have a freaking word. Just listen to the music in "The Fountain" or hell, "Saw" and they use the music so well in those movies (god bless charlie clouser, the fucking magnificent bastard) that it adds an emotional layer and doesn't need a single word to convey what emotion that is.

Electronic music is such a broad term and it is hard to figure out what it means to most people. Will is giving me far too much credit on the whole musician front. I'm completely self taught and it's mostly hours of trail and error, but I keep at it because I like it and I want to be good at what I like doing. (taking self taught piano lessons and such for now)

so again, to flip back to the lyrical side of things, you act like I'm still of the mind set that "all rap sucks" and I believe I stated above that I realize it isn't the case, but that rap "music" sucks, and needs to become a more complex vessel for delivering their expression of choice. Compare "The Streets" video that was linked above musically vs the others and you'll see why I picked that one as my acceptable entry.

and P.S. That aphex twin video is funny, but you haven't seen anything till you've seen "monkeydrummer" lol Richard D. James is a weird fellow, all of his music is pretty difficult to get your head around.... well, not all of it but, a lot of it.

What's most comical is that I'm responding to this post while listening to "I'm Hungry" by Sports. Good electronica/breakbeat if you ask me.

When did I attack shauk? I chose not to expound upon my point simply becuase I made it more than clear enough in my first post.

Classy indeed.

And while it's not my cup of tea, I've heard what he has up on his myspace.

Stop being Shauk's bodyguard and explain how rap isn't music.

Well myself and a few others have cited some artists that'd be up your alley. Message me here or on aim - I'd be more than happy to share my entire collection with you.

Spoken poetry has no melody or harmony. Music requires at least some melodic content. You don't sing rap. There can be music in rap, but rap itself is not music.

Do you split hairs for a living or do those non-arguments come standard with the Apple stock?

It can be argued that the way the lyrics are presented in rap is the melody, and that the beats, samples, and other components in the background make up the harmony. Just because rap isn't sung, it doesn't mean a rap performance isn't music. Also, you left out the rhythmic component that also is a characteristic of music.

"Spoken poetry has no melody." Say that to a room full of poets, and you'll have a bunch of angry people with vast sense of diction.... You want to have an earful?

Homer is rolling in his grave.

Yes, I believe in lyricals

It's not splitting hairs at all. Or are you one of those people that thinks that 3 minutes of the sound of New York traffic constitutes music?

I don't think you'll discover anything by doing this. You can't take a form, remove an essential element, then evaluate it. It's so arbitrary and it turns this whole discussion into a debate over mere materials. An example might be to pose the question: "Would Walt Whitman have been as good of a poet if we removed all the letter "A"s from his work?"

The problem I see with this discussion is that it's a battle of which form's materials are better. It's obsessed with the artifact of the music. Proving why rap doesn't suck ultimately doesn't matter because there are a multitude that clearly love it. That's really all it takes to prove it doesn't suck - that there are tons of people out there who love it. It exists in its cultural context and perhaps you need to understand that context before "getting it" (though I don't think I really understand the context...and I like a lot of rap). But - even if it requires this background knowledge to enjoy, doesn't lessen it's merit. No music stands on its own, independent of its social, cultural, or even market context (except maybe in analysis class).

Another reason I feel this sort of thing leads nowhere, is because we can't categorize artists under an umbrella like "rap," and expect to have anything in common between them. I'm probably not the best person to do this, so I won't, but it's probably simple for an enthusiast to take two artists both lumped under "rap" who have almost nothing in common.

Also, where does turntablism fit in to all this?

Will...when we try to define music beyond what the dictionary says, we enter completely subjective territory, so basically, stop trying to define music. Even by very strict definitions, music does not require melody - what about solo drum repertoire?

No, the dictionary is actually very specific, not subjective at all. I'm trying to head away from subjective because, just like I said above, there are people out there that litterally think that any sound or even possibly silence constitutes music. It's in that subjectivity that the word music losses all meaning. I'm not interested in music losing meaning, thus my position that spoken word isn't music.

Maybe I should put it this way. Who is called a 'rapper', the one that rhymes or the pasty white guy in the studio that puts together the beats and melody?
Someone has to.
I'm not a very good percussionist when it comes to a set, but correct me if I'm wrong: drums have different tones. These tones, when combined with beat and often measure, surely constitute music. Even by the most strict definition.

Now replace "drums" with "spoken word."

Have you ever deconstructed language? Here's an exercise for you: Spend a day at work, but whenever you speak, don't use any high vowels. Recast all of them as low vowels.

Wow will... you are really going to try and tell a professional musician what music is?

If anyone really knows I would say it's someone who spends nearly all of his time playing, thinking about and living music.

I am just saying...



As for the rap question, are we talking about hip hop or the actual act of rapping? If you are just talking about the act of rapping, what's the point of looking at it isolation?

In the traditional sense of music, no. But noise can and often is considered musical.

Nonsense. Exactly how much is your definition of music, in it's most traditional sense, truly worth when that definition is completely irrelevant to many if not most of those that create and appreciate music?

Your entire argument boils down to nothing more than a matter of semantics.

For the purposes of the OP, we should be talking about the "musical" accompaniment to rap, as opposed to "rap music," the tracks we spin when we want to roll with our hommies. Kinda like when aberkok and I roll up and down Yonge St., lookin' for some play.

But, seriously, Shauk's complaint is what we hear in the background, not the rapping per se. I think the problem here, is that we are pulling apart the whole to reveal how "sucky" rap's "musical" accompaniment really is. True enough, it isn't something to compare to other genres, but that's not the point. Rap music (the whole) is concerned with lyrics and their delivery. It would be like criticizing electronica for not being capable of existing in an entirely acoustic context...and using that to deny its status as music. What would be the point?

So because he plays he's right and Webster is wrong? I play, too. I've played piano since I was in diapers, many times professionally. I mean that doesn't really have anything to do with semantics, but there it is.

The word "music" means what it means.

I'm not arguing that all rap is bad or anything like that, and rappers are "artists" by trade, but speaking for a while—in beat or not—isn't music. "Rap music" is a contradiction in terms or at the very least a miscategorization.

The thread is semantics. "Is rap music?" is one of the primary questions of the thread. That question is essentially "what does music mean, and does rap fall under that meaning?" The strict answer is no.

Have you not been reading my posts carefully? Please ask me if you need any clarifications.

That's not rap, it's instrumentals. I doubt anyone could argue that the instrumentals aren't music. They're absolutely music. That's not the rap, though, which was what I was trying to illustrate with:

from dictionary.com:

6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.

Will, I'm still not sure what you're saying. I can argue semantically that rap is music, but you say it isn't. You've called drums music. Would Gregorian chant be music too? You're misinterpreting the dictionary definitions, I think. Either that, or you don't quite understand what happens when we utter language, and you don't quite understand what is happening when someone raps.

Fine. Rap can use the same definition of 'music' that I can assign to my own farts, which are a pleasing sound. Is that really the winning argument you want to make?

Edit: I don't know why people are up in arms about this. A child's laughter isn't really music either, not in the same sense as a concerto or guitar solo, but that doesn't make it bad or less in any way. Rap is what it is. Applying a correct label to it does not redefine it.

I don't know. If the Oxford University Press will call it music, I don't know why you won't. Rap isn't an "accidental" sound, nor is it an incidental sound such as laughter. It is pieced together purposefully, and often in an improvised fashion. It is a music of the voice, that is either solo or accompanied by an instrumental backing. No, it's not singing, but it isn't farting either.

If you simply don't like rap, then please say so. I'm finding it increasingly difficult to take what you're writing seriously.

You are right, Will. Rap on its own is not neccessarily music. The problem, will, is that you are isolating the spoken word from the sounds that accompany it.

When I speak of rap, I am speaking about the whole package, or as Baraka puts it, the tracks we spin when we want to roll with our hommies when we are looking for some play...

What purpose does it serve to do this other than to win a semantic argument?

Charlatan, I'm not convinced he's won that argument, but your point still stands. Rap isn't quite the same without the beats, etc. But the ones who benefit the most from that are those who can't keep time very well. :)

I was only talking about rap by itself.
I agree with the idea that the instrumentation is music. Rap can be a capella, though. Mos Def did an acapella version of one of his pieces that was on MTV once upon a time. Was that not rap because it lacked an instrumental?

There's no winning or losing, there's the truth.

Can we continue the discussion under the definition of rap being the whole package?

Otherwise I am going to have to pull out some spoken word songs by dead white guys and start waving them around... ;)


As I see it there are a number of reasons why some people don't respect rap.

1) the music in rap is largely sampled from somewhere else and then reconstructed. It is the first music of the information age. Some traditionalists, like Phil Spector, would say that rap arists should go and learn to write their own songs. Others, like Pete Townshend, would say that the traditionalists should just shut up and get out of the way as a new form of music has been born.

2) Subject matter. Much of what passes for mainstream rap is all about bling and guns and bitches. In answer of that, I point to what passes for mainstream pop music which, as far as I can tell, is all about people expressing soppy love sentiments at each other. Neither is really all that good when it comes down to it. It should be noted that this has more to do with content than the form.


Interestingly, many of the comments I see that complain about rap music "sucking" are not all that different from the kinds of complaints that were once made about Rock 'n' Roll.

if you're at a rock concert and the drummer does a drum solo, does that portion of the concert suddenly cease to be music (as it lacks melody and harmony)?

How about African tribal drumming?

Also, to pull the rapping away from the whole package isn't fair. How often do rappers rap without a backing track? I'd say less than 1% of the time. Less than 0.1% on records.

Don't misrepresent me, Will. My point was that I was against trying to define music at all...and so it's not "me vs. Webster."

My personal (and of course this changes and deepens as time goes on) definition of music, which I'd like to share but not impose, is: organized sound. To speak up for "those who think three minutes of traffic sounds" is music, well, I do... sort of. To me a lot has to do with the way it's presented. Standing at an intersection isn't music to me. Every once in a while there are events which could be described as musical, but for me, to really be music, it has to be presented that way, i.e. at a concert or on a recording. At that point, someone has decided to organize the sound.

Doesn't mean I like it or that it's pleasing. Music doesn't have to be pleasing. It's not that simple.

If music means organized sound, then rap is music. If music means a melodic and/or percussive sounds of different pitches organized into structural pieces, then rap probably isn't music. Beat boxing is. I like beat boxing.

...back to the thread...

Does rap suck? Basically, yes, imho. I'd say that most rap, the rap you might hear on Clear Channel stations or on MTV, is pretty disrespectful, petty, childish, and shallow. Occasionally, there will be good rap and it's usually underground or non-mainstream.

Most of the "music" on MTV is disrespectful, petty, childish, and shallow... regardless of genre.

They only show what sells. Nobody is confusing Britney Spears, Nickelback, and My Chemical Romance with being earth-shaking artists. But you knew that already.

Do you know what's true? I know your standpoint, but I don't know your belief. You haven't expounded why you think rap isn't music. There are encyclopedias, university courses, books, social programs, etc. that all support and develop a culture of rap (aka hip-hop) as a legitimate and enriching musical genre that was derived from African American communities.

I will now ask you what I should have a while ago: If rap isn't music, then what would you call it? Talking? Poetry? Noise? Nonsense? Whatever you choose to call it, please support your answer with an explanation.

aberkok is right; much of the discussion of music is subjective. But at the root of it: semantically, scientifically, and aesthetically, rap (even without accompaniment) can be defined as a form of music. How is this not true? Please explain to me, if I am wrong.

And what Crompsin just said, too.

That's how I see it, yes.

Foshizzle my Walt Wizzle.

Rapping is not meant for the page, and it isn't spoken word, as there is a distinct difference in the delivery. Rap has a much stronger rhythmic quality, and it is often distinguished from spoken word, specifically, as being more musical.

If you analyze rap tonally and using scansion, this is what you will find. Good rappers have a command over the rhythm, tone, and pitch of uttered language as a drummer does over the rhythm of various pitches of percussion. A common connection between the two is found in syncopation. But that's another discussion altogether.

Well, if no one else is going to say it, "Leave Britney Spears ALONE!". Please return to your normally scheduled discussion.


Two add my two cents. I don't think rap music sucks. I would willingly submit the album Stillmatic by Nas as proof. This may or may not be to your liking, though, it is one of my favorites.

Rap per se, doesn't suck, rather what sucks is the more popular examples of this form of music.

Further, I posit that much of what passes for popular music is crap.

Yeah, it's called hip-pop or pop rap.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less legitimate of an art form.

Yeah, a lot of popular rap sucks, but pop music sucks in general. There is also tons of pop rock, jazz, country, R&B, any type of music that sucks.

Many people complain about the lyrical content of rap. Well that's life in the ghetto. I wouldn't expect most white people from the suburbs to get it but people are actually living that life, the music reflects it.

People also complain about the "simplistic" rhythmic elements of rap. Well, one guy banging on a drum can be music. So can one guy with a drum machine. Just because the recorded sounds aren't necessarily made by physical instruments doesn't mean A. it's any less musical or B. that it takes any less talent to make it well. Yes it's easy to crank out simple crap but the good stuff, believe it or not, really takes talent to produce, and not being able to tell the difference between good and bad doesn't make it any more reasonable to say it's all simple and crap.

To say that rap is not music or that it all just sucks is extremely narrow minded. To me the value of music has nothing to do with how it's made or what exactly it sounds like but it's the soul and expression that goes into it. Rap is very soulful music. Listen a little closer and you might start to find the message.

well you've all managed to rip the subject away from what I'm talking about to turn it in to what you want to talk about so I give up on it.

remind us what your point was

In other words, he doesn't care if rap is poetry or spoken word... he is asking about the musical tracks upon which the raps are laid.

As I said above:

I would add to this, some are better than others at constructing these musical beds. Some, do make new music upon which to lay their raps.

Like any form of music. It is only as good as the composer/artist and popularity does not always equal excellence.

The real question is, can you dance to it? This is how rap developed into hip hop: It became a medium to accompany dance. It might not be as complex or melodic as most other genres, but guess what? It's not supposed to be. But does that make it "suck"? Not if people like it. Not if it gives them joy, or an outlet for their creativity, or, in many cases, for their anger and frustrations.

If it "sucks" or if it isn't musical enough for you, then that's too bad. It is a very legitimate musical genre, and its influence is far-reaching and is having a huge and often positive impact on communities around the world. If it can generate this much energy, all I can say is it isn't going away anytime soon:

A very good point Baraka.

This isn't my question, it has no bearing on my stance, I could dance to a fucking washing machine if I so chose.

wait so you're seriously saying they invented music AFTER dancing?

Yes, I find simplicity to suck, hence why I don't dance to washing machines mentioned above.

People like cigarettes, doesn't mean it's good, people like fast food, doesn't mean it's good. People like different sports teams, doesn't mean they are good.

many things in this world give joy, an outlet for creativity, anger and frustrations, it still doesn't mean it's good. Some people find joy in molesting underage schoolboys, some people find it to be a valid outlet for their anger to curbstomp you or shoot you if they are angry at you. while sure, rap/hip hop of this vein may be a "healthier alternative" it still doesn't change my question which had nothing to do with this sub topic at all.

I don't care if it goes away or not, I'd just rather see the genre produce something a little more tangible in the way of memorable MUSIC, until then, well, I'm going to stand by my original question and demonstrate my ability to separate music from lyrics in this discussion.

Everyone saying "you can't separate them! it's part of the package are just proving my point that the music isn't good enough to stand on it's own.

a) I think you are generalizing.

b) Musical taste is extremely subjective.

Wow, Shauk. While I would have a lot of fun pointing out your erroneous readings and fallacious responses, I won't. I'd rather just keep the discussion going. There is one point that sticks though: "...I find simplicity to suck...." This is where you get very subjective. Hip hop doesn't suck; you think hip hop sucks. There's a difference. Based on your comment on simplicity, you also think this sucks:

so much depends
upon

a red wheel
barrow

glazed with rain
water

beside the white
chickens.

If you don't recognize this, it is "The Red Wheelbarrow" by William Carlos Williams. He penned it in a couple of minutes. It is also known as one of the most beautiful poems of the 20th century, and a exceptional example of imagist poetry. I'm sorry to know you think it sucks.

There is little that sucks about rhyming eloquently over a 4X4 beat. This is what many poets have been doing for centuries, and this is what hip hop artists do in a modernized, musical context.

I consider this thread to be over, Shauk, if you won't accept my arguments. Although, I'd be willing to recast them and step them up if you're willing to listen.

It seems that the conversation here seems to keep looping. (somewhat indicative of the topic, stance, and ironic coupling)

What I am noticing, if at all, is that, you, Shauk, are trying to convey the point that rap MUSIC, the underlying beats and rhythm, without all that jazz and flow and lyrics, in essence strictly the instrumentals alone, is simply no good to your musical perception of what your definition of music happens to be. Is this the overall message you are putting forth? Yes, I see why you are receving the tangential responses you are getting, but as in every genre or of music, there are set standards that classify such stemmings. Rock has roots, as does classical, and electronica, blues, latin, and every other form must have some essential requirements to define its overall musical inclination and sound.

The topic here, "Rap", is simple to define if generalized, as you would have it: Rhythm & Poetry.

Without the latter, all you have is the "R". Unfair it is to uncouple the pair, but the instrumentals to rap can be quite extraordinary if you care to seek out the intracacies. Some would say the actual form of the synced lyrical content of the spoken delivery would be the centerpoint, but without a relevant and smooth beat to accompany, the entire form can fall flat.


If you are willing to expand your mind, you must try to see the artform in the way it was intended, as any other genre would have it done that way as well; complete. If not, I suppose I could compilate a replete list of rap instrumentals that may have you rethink your stance of "simplicity sucks; therefore, rap sucks" (or at least the sounds in the background of the song suck, and not the artist talking does).

Good for you.

ok...



lol

Well... you need to get past this "complexity is automatically better than simplicity" attitude. Things aren't that clear cut. What is "simple" for you might just be an element taken for granted by someone else.

Example: I enjoyed your mySpace tracks but will interested to hear what you can pull off in a meter other than 4/4. In other words, I like variety in my meter.

I don't feel, however, that just because all your tunes are in 4/4 (and maybe there's some we haven't heard yet), that they are too simple and therefore "suck." I am listening to it on its own terms. I can hear that you put some care and attention into what you were doing, but the bottom line is that I had a response to it. I don't and likely will never fully know why.

But to get back on topic...

I think one of two things is true:

1) Rap does suck without its lyrical component.

2) You are unwilling to accept that you just don't like something and are trying to nail down, in vain, some objective reasons why this is a lesser music and is not worthy of being enjoyed by an intelligent person.

3) You just haven't heard enough/the right stuff yet.

I hope the answer is #3.

If the answer is #1, then consider also that Lance Armstrong is a horrible cyclist without his bike.

I would prefer it if you wouldn't quote me out of context by hacking up my words. You don't want to play that game with me. You might layer together music with your electronics in your spare time, but I receive an annual salary to hack up words. (Nice touch, but you forgot to delete that comma after your name.)

Do you want to continue the discussion or not?


* * * * *


Well put, aberkok. Shauk's response to you will indicate his commitment to his own thread.

Whoa. :surprised: That was like when Bugs Bunny slaps someone with a gauntlet. Damn.

I like that...

apples and oranges really.