Bad weather and rear wheel drive cars - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Martian · 03-01-2006, 06:58 PM

big_bubba : I have take no offense. At the same time, I firmly believe that part of being a good driver is recognizing and using the appropriate tools available to you. I'll use my own accident as an example.

Back in December I was driving out on a back road. I was doing the limit (80 km/h) on clean, dry pavement when I came out of a flat curve. I couldn't see the road surface ahead of me so I didn't realize that the road just outside the bend had some loose powder on it. Not a lot, but enough that I lost traction. Control at that point is marginal and I wasn't able to keep myself from going off the road. The best I was able to manage was to slide it sideways in order to stop as quickly as possible (a bad idea in most vehicles I realize, but my Monte Carlo has a low centre of gravity and isn't likely to roll at that speed).

The fault on that one was the farmer who didn't put up his fencing and therefore allowed snow to drift onto the road, but the point is that there's precious few who could've maintained control in that situation. It's the first and only accident I've had and I fully realize that the reason I had it was because of my tires. I'm riding on summer tires for the same reason you did; I can't afford to buy snow tires right now. If I'd had the cash available to put them on my car I would've and the whole thing likely wouldnt've happened.

It's my experience that there's a large group who's very vocal about driver ability. I've found that these tend to be young men who have little actual claim to back up their boasting. Personally, I take issue with ABS and don't like to use it, but at the same time I recognize the merit for those who don't know how to brake on the threshold and maintain control. And snow tires in bad weather are always a good idea.

There is no substitute for driving ability, but there are supplements. I think part of being a good driver is recognizing that.

KnifeMissile · 03-02-2006, 02:00 AM

When you think about it, FWD should really be more controllable than RWD.

With FWD cars, you are guaranteed that the direction of the force is in the same direction that you are steering. A RWD car can make no such guarantee...

In RWD cars, the force is always being applied directly forward. What your steering does is, if the front wheels have traction, then they will transfer the force to the direction you are steering. This is why RWD cars work at all. However, in adverse conditions, like icy weather, the front wheels may lose traction while the rear wheels still retain friction. This will result in the car moving forward regardless of how you steer. Not a good situation to be in...

Adding weight to the trunk will only aggrevate the situation because it will give the back wheels more traction without doing the same for the front wheels, making the situation of pushing the car forward without steering control more common.

It doesn't sound like this was mathew330's problem but, then again, from his description, his incident should have been impossible. I mean, really, what can cause a car moving straight down a straight road and then skid to the side for no reason?

If I were to grasp at straws, I could hypothesize that both front wheels and the rear left wheel lost traction while the rear right wheel turned the car counter-clockwise around its centre of gravity. However, this is highly unlikely in many ways, including the car turning as fast as the original post suggested.

The only thing I can say is that even 25 mph (which is more than 40 kph) might have been too fast for iced over streets. I recently drove around town ofter a snowfall and discovered some slippery streets on my way to drop off the rental car. I was doing a right turn in a right turn lane from one major street to another and felt the ABS kick in at only 30 kph (18 mph). Luckily for me, there wasn't much traffic and I could simply do my turn but it scared me. Now, I've only had my (temporary) license for two months now and I wanted to understand how to drive in adverse weather. So, I circled the block in order to do the turn again, this time without enabling the ABS. Luckily (depending on your point of view), on the other side of the block, from one side street to another, was another slippery intersection. I suspect this one might have had ice under the snow. Anyway, I also slid at this intersection while not even doing 20 kph (12 mph). In fact, I slid so much that I decided to abort the turn and continued down the side road to another less slippery intersection. Going back to the right turn at the first intersection, I saw what looked like only snow and slush but felt the ABS come on while doing only 10 kph (6 mph). Sad to say, I was getting tired of the exercise and was worried about delivering the rental car on time so I just continued on my way.

The point of this story is that, in adverse conditions, you may have to bite the bullet and go even more slowly than you're comfortable with. I know that we're all used to going at "reasonable" speeds in good weather but when that water falls on freezing ground, the definition of "reasonable speeds" changes quite dramatically and there's nothing you can do but avoid snowy, icy roads and slow the hell down!

03-01-2006, 06:58 PM	#41 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	big_bubba : I have take no offense. At the same time, I firmly believe that part of being a good driver is recognizing and using the appropriate tools available to you. I'll use my own accident as an example. Back in December I was driving out on a back road. I was doing the limit (80 km/h) on clean, dry pavement when I came out of a flat curve. I couldn't see the road surface ahead of me so I didn't realize that the road just outside the bend had some loose powder on it. Not a lot, but enough that I lost traction. Control at that point is marginal and I wasn't able to keep myself from going off the road. The best I was able to manage was to slide it sideways in order to stop as quickly as possible (a bad idea in most vehicles I realize, but my Monte Carlo has a low centre of gravity and isn't likely to roll at that speed). The fault on that one was the farmer who didn't put up his fencing and therefore allowed snow to drift onto the road, but the point is that there's precious few who could've maintained control in that situation. It's the first and only accident I've had and I fully realize that the reason I had it was because of my tires. I'm riding on summer tires for the same reason you did; I can't afford to buy snow tires right now. If I'd had the cash available to put them on my car I would've and the whole thing likely wouldnt've happened. It's my experience that there's a large group who's very vocal about driver ability. I've found that these tend to be young men who have little actual claim to back up their boasting. Personally, I take issue with ABS and don't like to use it, but at the same time I recognize the merit for those who don't know how to brake on the threshold and maintain control. And snow tires in bad weather are always a good idea. There is no substitute for driving ability, but there are supplements. I think part of being a good driver is recognizing that. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame Last edited by Martian; 03-01-2006 at 07:00 PM..

03-02-2006, 02:00 AM	#42 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	When you think about it, FWD should really be more controllable than RWD. With FWD cars, you are guaranteed that the direction of the force is in the same direction that you are steering. A RWD car can make no such guarantee... In RWD cars, the force is always being applied directly forward. What your steering does is, if the front wheels have traction, then they will transfer the force to the direction you are steering. This is why RWD cars work at all. However, in adverse conditions, like icy weather, the front wheels may lose traction while the rear wheels still retain friction. This will result in the car moving forward regardless of how you steer. Not a good situation to be in... Adding weight to the trunk will only aggrevate the situation because it will give the back wheels more traction without doing the same for the front wheels, making the situation of pushing the car forward without steering control more common. It doesn't sound like this was mathew330's problem but, then again, from his description, his incident should have been impossible. I mean, really, what can cause a car moving straight down a straight road and then skid to the side for no reason? If I were to grasp at straws, I could hypothesize that both front wheels and the rear left wheel lost traction while the rear right wheel turned the car counter-clockwise around its centre of gravity. However, this is highly unlikely in many ways, including the car turning as fast as the original post suggested. The only thing I can say is that even 25 mph (which is more than 40 kph) might have been too fast for iced over streets. I recently drove around town ofter a snowfall and discovered some slippery streets on my way to drop off the rental car. I was doing a right turn in a right turn lane from one major street to another and felt the ABS kick in at only 30 kph (18 mph). Luckily for me, there wasn't much traffic and I could simply do my turn but it scared me. Now, I've only had my (temporary) license for two months now and I wanted to understand how to drive in adverse weather. So, I circled the block in order to do the turn again, this time without enabling the ABS. Luckily (depending on your point of view), on the other side of the block, from one side street to another, was another slippery intersection. I suspect this one might have had ice under the snow. Anyway, I also slid at this intersection while not even doing 20 kph (12 mph). In fact, I slid so much that I decided to abort the turn and continued down the side road to another less slippery intersection. Going back to the right turn at the first intersection, I saw what looked like only snow and slush but felt the ABS come on while doing only 10 kph (6 mph). Sad to say, I was getting tired of the exercise and was worried about delivering the rental car on time so I just continued on my way. The point of this story is that, in adverse conditions, you may have to bite the bullet and go even more slowly than you're comfortable with. I know that we're all used to going at "reasonable" speeds in good weather but when that water falls on freezing ground, the definition of "reasonable speeds" changes quite dramatically and there's nothing you can do but avoid snowy, icy roads and slow the hell down!