Need advice with Car Audio - In specific subs and amps. - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

GetRdone · 02-09-2005, 07:37 PM

Not sure what exaclty u want for the amp, its kind of brand preference and such. However stay away from; spark audio, lightening audio, most pyle stuff, anything without a brand, or anything that sounds alot like a brand you know....but isnt. Basically if you can get it from those "expo center blowout sales" dont buy it.

Ballzor · 02-09-2005, 08:27 PM

I dont know as much about amps as I should. I wonder if attaching a 1000W amp will damage these sub's because of the setup with the box etc. Also interested in exactly what to expect from throwing a 1000W on there as opposed to a 600W amp. I definitely have no restrictions on how loud I want it, the boomer the better. I just dont want to damage the subwoofers. Thx

Nelson · 02-10-2005, 11:23 AM

You definately dont want to damage the woofer if you buy them on line - you will have NO warranty. But, if you made a deal with you local specialist retailer you will have a 2yr. warranty from JL. Dont believe any hot air the online retailer blows your way regarding warranty - it is NOT through JL. He may say he can offer you warranty - but HE will be responsible for replacement. When/if he skips town you will be S.O.L.

Any reasonable retailer will try and make a compromise regarding internet pricing. It wont be as low, but it shouldnt have to be. There is value in buying from a brick and morter store.

And do the retailer a favor - if you are planning on buying it online DONT WASTE THEIR TIME AT THE SHOP. Send them an email with all of your questions just like the guy on the internet. When you have a problem with the woofer dont bother the retailer - send your internet seller an email. When you have questions about installation - send another email. BUT - if you want to talk to a human face to face that is willing to help you - buy at a specialist retailer.

Rant off

From JL Audios site regarding internet sales.
http://www.jlaudio.com/internetsales.html

Ballzor · 02-10-2005, 01:57 PM

I suppose thats one way to look at it. But its that kind of attitude that has stopped me from buying a 1500 dollar system in store the same day. I hadn't let on that I was looking to buy just yet, the guy saw another customer and walked off mid sentence. He never came back, so I mean the customer may be a bother and all, but you never know who's pockets are lined you know. I assume you work in the business, but come on man, you cant assume to sell anything if you dont put a little leg out there. Besides, of the countless retailers all across town I visited, only one of them tried to convince me that buying from the store was the right way to go. Warranty or not, Id rather spend my money on something I had a little bit more control over ya know.

Nelson · 02-10-2005, 03:13 PM

Sounds like youve visited poor examples of specialty retailers (unless of course you visited the big boxes where that type of service is commonplace). I will (and do) spend all the time in the world with a customer who is considering purchasing on the net. My lively hood depends on it these days. Some see the light and some dont.

Once it becomes clear that a customer will NEVER see the light - the buck stops there. I wish them luck on their purchase and let them know I will be glad to be of service should they choose to BECOME A CUSTOMER.

When they ask if I will match internet pricing this is now my canned response:

'Sure! I can match that price - no problem! Here is my business card with my email address. Send me an email when you get home and I'll be glad to begin our transaction.'

Customer: 'What do you mean?'

Me: "Well, if internet price is your biggest concern I will gladly meet your needs. BUT, in order for me to do that something has to give. Our transaction will be handled just like online. We will have to communicate just like you were buying online - email only. I will only be able to provide you with limited technical information since I will most likely have my little sister reply to your emails from home (dont worry, she is good at looking up prices and can read the specs online quit well). I cannot look at your car in detail, or spend time making sure the product you WANT is the product you NEED (I really dont know if the widget you want will work with the widget you already have). I will tell you the product is in stock - even if it isnt - because I can. I will send your order out in 2-3 weeks (thats how long it takes me to find the product on the grey market). The product might be new, might not. Did I mention that sometimes I forget to send the product out at all? Dont worry, that only happens when I have to change email addresses when things get a little 'warm'.

Intermission

'If you have questions or problems when you receive your product send me an email. It may take me awhile to get back to you - my little sister does not handle follow up emails and I am terrible at service after the sale. Should you need warranty service on your product please send me an email requesting a Return Authorization number. Once I have sent you the RA # (it may take awhile) you will need to send me the unit in the original box and packaging. Once I have located a replacement, or had my neighbor fix it, I will send it back. I do not accept phone calls or visits at the store. My experienced installers will not answer technical questions or offer advice on your installation. If you find out that you bought the wrong thing after the sale (my sister is still working on the technical advice) I will gladly return it within 30 days for a 30% restocking fee - simply box it up in the original packaging and mail it to me.

I could go on, but if the above doesnt get my point across you will never see the light.
My products and services are a value. Are there those that will never see a value in them? Yes. Will I go out of business because of them? No. But I will continue to try and persuade each and every one of them.

Happy shopping!

brandon11983 · 02-10-2005, 09:20 PM

Nelson, that was the single greatest thing regarding our type of business I have ever read. Thank you for that.

soundmotor · 02-11-2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nelson

But I will continue to try and persuade each and every one of them.

Seems more like bludgeoning them into acceptance of your point of view than edification.

There are 3 points that bear mentioning:

1) People do not consider the behind-the-scenes ramifications of their purchase. They wanted to save some money and the majority of retailers in any category are incapable of demonstrating their value as they present it as a merchandise-only transaction, not a value-added one.

2) People tend to approach any vehicle related service from an adversarial standpoint, i.e., "You are going to screw me.". In other words, service & accessory shops are not looked at as pillars of community ethics. Whether or not you want to admit it, car audio gets painted with the same brush that car mechanics do.

3) People do not (in general) come to you before their purchase and ask you if you'll do the installation. They may come in prior & shop you, i.e. get your recommendation on what is good to get. They go & find the same product online & buy it, and then return to you for the installation. Is this fair? Of course not. Life isn't fair either.

Here is the situation now. When they first came in & shopped you, you told them "Price X". They found it online for "Price Y". Already you are at a disadvantage because the price you told them initially was 30-50% higher, i.e. you were trying to screw them. Consumers do not consider your overhead costs, only what their cost will be. You then deliver the speech you just wrote and I'd bet the majority of the ones who bought on eBay, the Zeb, or Woofers Etc. walk out of your store, never to return.

And they do what then? They still have gear they want installed so they drive down the street to your competitor (who may have a slightly different take on how to do business):

The customer you just bounced: I bought this from Fly-By-Night-Shady-Internet-Sales, will you install it?

The shop eating your lunch: Absolutely, but there is a 50% labor premium on items we did not sell because we don't know what problems we may run into. If there is a warrantly issue, you will need to work with whom you bought it from to resolve it but, we'll help with that any way we can. However, we'll take care of you in the exact same way we take care of every one of our customers because we want you as our customer long-term. (lowers voice) You know, I might even be able to get you comped on the install supplies too and minimize the sting on the labor!

The customer has heard twice now that what he bought may be no bargain. He heard it once from you but you 'tuded him right out of the store. He's also just heard it from your competitor, but your competitor told him in a way that presented the facts without making him feel like an idiot about his purchase. Your competitor also converted him into a potential long-term customer and told him essentially the same thing you did. Your competitor did one other thing, he put money is his cash drawer.

You & Brandon might want to look into joining MERA. One of their main initiatives is educating dealers how to retain customers rather than alienate them. I understand your frustration on internet sales, but the internet isn't going away. Better to find out how to prosper alongside it.

soundmotor

brandon11983 · 02-11-2005, 09:10 AM

I don't think Nelson is off at all. Why should we give the vastly superior customer service we can give at the same price as some "fly by night" internet site? I always say if I am to match price, I am going to match service as well. Its only fair. Would you expect to get the same service at the Days Inn as you would the Hilton?

soundmotor · 02-11-2005, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandon11983

I don't think Nelson is off at all. Why should we give the vastly superior customer service we can give at the same price as some "fly by night" internet site? I always say if I am to match price, I am going to match service as well. Its only fair. Would you expect to get the same service at the Days Inn as you would the Hilton?

Read it again.

You completely missed the point.

soundmotor

brandon11983 · 02-11-2005, 09:21 AM

I still stand by it.

mercury-hg · 02-11-2005, 02:37 PM

3rd alternative to this all, which i happen to like:

thoroughly educate yourself in the matter at hand, car audio in this case. buy gently used equipment from a respected/reputable enthusiast through a forum or ebay at a significant discount. take the time to do a proper install (design your sub-box with a CAD program, build MDF speaker spacers or pods, sand away paint and ground your amp to your car's chassis, etc). you'll end up with some useful knowledge, a feeling of satisfaction, extra money in your pocket, and a better system for the money than your could get elsewhere.

not trying to stiff knowledgable/helpful retailers, but i trust myself more than you!

Ballzor · 02-11-2005, 02:45 PM

Its that kind of attitute that turned me away from the guys in the shop to begin with. If your sister can do the same job you can online, then I'm just going to talk to her and cut you out completely. What I mean is that I can get a basic understanding of what the vendor may have been studying his whole life from people on the internet. People happy to spin their shit just for someone to listen, and this thread is a testiment to that :]. Again, past the few minutes I spend in the showroom with you, after I buy said item for the higher price, I don't expect you to invite me over to dinner, in this case the relationship would most likely stop the minute I drove away with my car booming away. And just on a note to what soundmotor said, when the one guy walked away from me, I drove right over to their competitor and the only reason I didn't buy from them was time constraints. Why send a letter when I can send an e-mail. Gets there the same way, n I dont have to worry about driving to the post office for stamps :]

Nelson · 02-11-2005, 06:02 PM

I guess my sarcasm wasnt painted red enough

Soundmotor - your points are correct/valid. My points were aimed at the '2 percenters'. If they asked for a headache and I said I would hit them in the head with a sledgehammer for free they still would not get it.

And since you brought it up, I have been closely related to MERA since '98. I've been to nearly every knowledge fest since joining my present employer.

Im sure those of us that have been in retail long enough know there is just NO WAY to deal with every customer that comes through the door in the 'text book' way. I can Eddy Kay the hell out of most people on my good days - but not all of my customers have read his book or been to one of his presentations to know what theyre supposed to act like

Ballzor · 02-12-2005, 08:28 AM

I suppose my position as the customer is just far to obsolete to continue in the discussion. Regardless, still looking for a decent amp that goes with these sub/box combination. I dunno Nelson, might lose customers if you keep sharing your information with us, charge via pay pall a few bucks for advice, though, that might just end up being one of those "shady online deals". Thx

Nelson · 02-13-2005, 03:31 PM

Ballzor - JL Audio 500/1 - From an authorized retailer - its the perfect amp for your set up . And thats free advice.

impulse03 · 02-13-2005, 07:07 PM

^ i completely agree

Ballzor · 02-14-2005, 02:23 PM

Ok, thats definitely a good place to start. Would it be pushing these sub's too much to use a 1000W Amp? Ive got the money and I dont want to have these lacking in any way if I can beef it up Via the Amp.

Nelson · 02-14-2005, 06:19 PM

If its a good quality, brand name, 1000W amplifier go right ahead. Just make sure the system is set up properly and you are aware of the limits of the drivers. To much power isnt a bad thing. It puzzles me why people are so amazed and bewildered when they blow woofers. How can you not hear a woofer crying for help when its over driven!!! Its the most gawd awful sound its obvious!

JL uses thermal power ratings vs. mechanical power ratings on their woofers - so they tend to be under rated vs. other brands.

If you tend to be a rowdy listener then I would stick with the 500/1

impulse03 · 02-14-2005, 07:22 PM

It all depends on the power ratings of the subs you decide to go with.
Now going off your original post...here is what i would suggest:

If you get the JL W3v2's (I however would recommend getting a single 12in JL W6v2. I currently have that in my car along with the JL 500/1 and it is plenty of bass. Check out the reviews at Car Audio and Electronics. They rated it the best sounding subwoofer they have ever heard. Definitely seems to be underrated when compared with subs of different brands such as Alpine, Rockford Fosgate, and MOMO.) - stick with a 500/1 to power them both. 1000 watts is going to be too much power especially in the upper levels. I know for a fact that a JL 1000/1 can blow out even a gently used W3v2 and have seen it happen first hand (that's another story though).

If you get 2 Alpine Type R's (depending on your price range you might be able to afford the new Type X)- you might be able to get away with a 1000 watt amp. It is going to be a lot of power for the Type R's to handle but from what I have heard they are definitely sturdy subs. If you are truely worried about your investment and do not have a warrenty...go with the 500 watt amp. You wont have to worry about blowing out the subs. Also if you dont upgrade your components, the 1000 watts of bass is going to overpower them with ease.

Ballzor · 02-15-2005, 12:55 PM

Thanks for the info. I definitely want to be able to push these amps but I wouldnt want to kill them. It all just depends on whats on the market right here in town. 1000W might be too much, but I still would like to go above 500W. Thanks a lot for this info, btw, the sub's come tomorrow.

Ballzor · 02-16-2005, 05:36 PM

I recieved the Subwoofers today. Not a thing wrong with them, Box and subs are all clean, exactly what I ordered. No shady deals, no rip offs. Actually the biggest problem I had was that the Box is JUST too big for my trunk. literally by maybe an inch. I went down to the local store and bought a Rockford Fosgate T500 and a smaller box. I checked the price on the box and it runs retail for 650. So should I sell it on E-bay for anywhere near that price I'm going to have spent less on the entire deal then had I gone to the specialty store. Can't wait to hear it turned on. N Btw, I did have them check the subs to make sure nothing was wrong with them. Worked perfectly. Thx for everybodies help

tommylee02 · 03-03-2005, 10:19 PM

If you want high quality sound, check out Nakamichi's line-up. If noise is all you want, you can find everything you need at Circuit City or somewhere similar.

02-10-2005, 11:23 AM	#43 (permalink)
Nelson Tilted	You definately dont want to damage the woofer if you buy them on line - you will have NO warranty. But, if you made a deal with you local specialist retailer you will have a 2yr. warranty from JL. Dont believe any hot air the online retailer blows your way regarding warranty - it is NOT through JL. He may say he can offer you warranty - but HE will be responsible for replacement. When/if he skips town you will be S.O.L. Any reasonable retailer will try and make a compromise regarding internet pricing. It wont be as low, but it shouldnt have to be. There is value in buying from a brick and morter store. And do the retailer a favor - if you are planning on buying it online DONT WASTE THEIR TIME AT THE SHOP. Send them an email with all of your questions just like the guy on the internet. When you have a problem with the woofer dont bother the retailer - send your internet seller an email. When you have questions about installation - send another email. BUT - if you want to talk to a human face to face that is willing to help you - buy at a specialist retailer. Rant off From JL Audios site regarding internet sales. http://www.jlaudio.com/internetsales.html __________________ Nelson

02-10-2005, 03:13 PM	#45 (permalink)
Nelson Tilted	Sounds like youve visited poor examples of specialty retailers (unless of course you visited the big boxes where that type of service is commonplace). I will (and do) spend all the time in the world with a customer who is considering purchasing on the net. My lively hood depends on it these days. Some see the light and some dont. Once it becomes clear that a customer will NEVER see the light - the buck stops there. I wish them luck on their purchase and let them know I will be glad to be of service should they choose to BECOME A CUSTOMER. When they ask if I will match internet pricing this is now my canned response: 'Sure! I can match that price - no problem! Here is my business card with my email address. Send me an email when you get home and I'll be glad to begin our transaction.' Customer: 'What do you mean?' Me: "Well, if internet price is your biggest concern I will gladly meet your needs. BUT, in order for me to do that something has to give. Our transaction will be handled just like online. We will have to communicate just like you were buying online - email only. I will only be able to provide you with limited technical information since I will most likely have my little sister reply to your emails from home (dont worry, she is good at looking up prices and can read the specs online quit well). I cannot look at your car in detail, or spend time making sure the product you WANT is the product you NEED (I really dont know if the widget you want will work with the widget you already have). I will tell you the product is in stock - even if it isnt - because I can. I will send your order out in 2-3 weeks (thats how long it takes me to find the product on the grey market). The product might be new, might not. Did I mention that sometimes I forget to send the product out at all? Dont worry, that only happens when I have to change email addresses when things get a little 'warm'. Intermission 'If you have questions or problems when you receive your product send me an email. It may take me awhile to get back to you - my little sister does not handle follow up emails and I am terrible at service after the sale. Should you need warranty service on your product please send me an email requesting a Return Authorization number. Once I have sent you the RA # (it may take awhile) you will need to send me the unit in the original box and packaging. Once I have located a replacement, or had my neighbor fix it, I will send it back. I do not accept phone calls or visits at the store. My experienced installers will not answer technical questions or offer advice on your installation. If you find out that you bought the wrong thing after the sale (my sister is still working on the technical advice) I will gladly return it within 30 days for a 30% restocking fee - simply box it up in the original packaging and mail it to me. I could go on, but if the above doesnt get my point across you will never see the light. My products and services are a value. Are there those that will never see a value in them? Yes. Will I go out of business because of them? No. But I will continue to try and persuade each and every one of them. Happy shopping! __________________ Nelson

02-10-2005, 09:20 PM	#46 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	Nelson, that was the single greatest thing regarding our type of business I have ever read. Thank you for that. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

02-11-2005, 09:10 AM	#48 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	I don't think Nelson is off at all. Why should we give the vastly superior customer service we can give at the same price as some "fly by night" internet site? I always say if I am to match price, I am going to match service as well. Its only fair. Would you expect to get the same service at the Days Inn as you would the Hilton? __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

02-11-2005, 09:21 AM	#50 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	I still stand by it. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

02-09-2005, 07:37 PM	#41 (permalink)
GetRdone Psycho	Not sure what exaclty u want for the amp, its kind of brand preference and such. However stay away from; spark audio, lightening audio, most pyle stuff, anything without a brand, or anything that sounds alot like a brand you know....but isnt. Basically if you can get it from those "expo center blowout sales" dont buy it.

02-09-2005, 08:27 PM	#42 (permalink)
Ballzor Crazy Location: Bat Country	I dont know as much about amps as I should. I wonder if attaching a 1000W amp will damage these sub's because of the setup with the box etc. Also interested in exactly what to expect from throwing a 1000W on there as opposed to a 600W amp. I definitely have no restrictions on how loud I want it, the boomer the better. I just dont want to damage the subwoofers. Thx

02-10-2005, 01:57 PM	#44 (permalink)
Ballzor Crazy Location: Bat Country	I suppose thats one way to look at it. But its that kind of attitude that has stopped me from buying a 1500 dollar system in store the same day. I hadn't let on that I was looking to buy just yet, the guy saw another customer and walked off mid sentence. He never came back, so I mean the customer may be a bother and all, but you never know who's pockets are lined you know. I assume you work in the business, but come on man, you cant assume to sell anything if you dont put a little leg out there. Besides, of the countless retailers all across town I visited, only one of them tried to convince me that buying from the store was the right way to go. Warranty or not, Id rather spend my money on something I had a little bit more control over ya know.

02-11-2005, 02:37 PM	#51 (permalink)
mercury-hg Psycho Location: U of MD	3rd alternative to this all, which i happen to like: thoroughly educate yourself in the matter at hand, car audio in this case. buy gently used equipment from a respected/reputable enthusiast through a forum or ebay at a significant discount. take the time to do a proper install (design your sub-box with a CAD program, build MDF speaker spacers or pods, sand away paint and ground your amp to your car's chassis, etc). you'll end up with some useful knowledge, a feeling of satisfaction, extra money in your pocket, and a better system for the money than your could get elsewhere. not trying to stiff knowledgable/helpful retailers, but i trust myself more than you!

02-11-2005, 06:02 PM	#53 (permalink)
Nelson Tilted	I guess my sarcasm wasnt painted red enough Soundmotor - your points are correct/valid. My points were aimed at the '2 percenters'. If they asked for a headache and I said I would hit them in the head with a sledgehammer for free they still would not get it. And since you brought it up, I have been closely related to MERA since '98. I've been to nearly every knowledge fest since joining my present employer. Im sure those of us that have been in retail long enough know there is just NO WAY to deal with every customer that comes through the door in the 'text book' way. I can Eddy Kay the hell out of most people on my good days - but not all of my customers have read his book or been to one of his presentations to know what theyre supposed to act like __________________ Nelson

02-13-2005, 03:31 PM	#55 (permalink)
Nelson Tilted	Ballzor - JL Audio 500/1 - From an authorized retailer - its the perfect amp for your set up . And thats free advice. __________________ Nelson

02-13-2005, 07:07 PM	#56 (permalink)
impulse03 Crazy	^ i completely agree

02-14-2005, 06:19 PM	#58 (permalink)
Nelson Tilted	If its a good quality, brand name, 1000W amplifier go right ahead. Just make sure the system is set up properly and you are aware of the limits of the drivers. To much power isnt a bad thing. It puzzles me why people are so amazed and bewildered when they blow woofers. How can you not hear a woofer crying for help when its over driven!!! Its the most gawd awful sound its obvious! JL uses thermal power ratings vs. mechanical power ratings on their woofers - so they tend to be under rated vs. other brands. If you tend to be a rowdy listener then I would stick with the 500/1 __________________ Nelson

02-14-2005, 07:22 PM	#59 (permalink)
impulse03 Crazy	It all depends on the power ratings of the subs you decide to go with. Now going off your original post...here is what i would suggest: If you get the JL W3v2's (I however would recommend getting a single 12in JL W6v2. I currently have that in my car along with the JL 500/1 and it is plenty of bass. Check out the reviews at Car Audio and Electronics. They rated it the best sounding subwoofer they have ever heard. Definitely seems to be underrated when compared with subs of different brands such as Alpine, Rockford Fosgate, and MOMO.) - stick with a 500/1 to power them both. 1000 watts is going to be too much power especially in the upper levels. I know for a fact that a JL 1000/1 can blow out even a gently used W3v2 and have seen it happen first hand (that's another story though). If you get 2 Alpine Type R's (depending on your price range you might be able to afford the new Type X)- you might be able to get away with a 1000 watt amp. It is going to be a lot of power for the Type R's to handle but from what I have heard they are definitely sturdy subs. If you are truely worried about your investment and do not have a warrenty...go with the 500 watt amp. You wont have to worry about blowing out the subs. Also if you dont upgrade your components, the 1000 watts of bass is going to overpower them with ease.

03-03-2005, 10:19 PM	#62 (permalink)
tommylee02 Tilted	If you want high quality sound, check out Nakamichi's line-up. If noise is all you want, you can find everything you need at Circuit City or somewhere similar.