Lyaec123

splck, you obvioulsy don't live anywhere that gets erratic snowfall, or own a set of tire chains yourself because its not like they are easy or even convenient to use. Maybe in the mountains in a blizzard, but for everyday driving with slush/snow/ice crap on the ground such as we get in MN. It's not like im going to go throw tire chains on my truck to get milk from the store or pick something up or go to school. 4wd doesn't help you stop but if you live that the top of a big hill out in the country in a state that gets a lot of snow, 4wd IS necessary to get home at times.

poof

I have a Grand Cherokee (Jeep model designation "ZJ"), just sold a CJ7, and use it for archery hunting, and wandering through the desert. I don't find the "U" is applicable to my Jeep as I can't/don't really haul anything large. It is an all wheel drive station wagon with more comfort, security, and safety that my CJ.

When a person starts a thread displaying obvious disgust on the subject matter, I wonder why you even dwell on the subject, much more than creating a forum about the object of your reality of animosity toward an individuals choice of personal transportation.

My Grand is fun, safe, and uses fossil fuel like there is no tommorrow (9-10 mpg). I offset that by driving a little six cylinder sedan, (BMW 323i) that gives great mileage and my wallet dictates my vehicle daily driving choice.

To each his/her own pleasures. I am fortunate to have served in the armed Forces (ARMY) of this great country that allows for discourse such as this, and, my oppurtunity to excell in my field and be able to afford what I want without legislation from myopic, do gooders that would protect myself,and family, from ourselves and our silly little educated decisions.

Have a great day, and I know you are saving energy by riding a stationary bike with a generator to provide the power for your Emachine.

scott_p_1

I never claimed that my accident was not my fault. I will say that I do drive well, and am an attentive driver. Mistakes happen.

Your animosity for the people around you astounds me. I hope that your feelings aren't shared by the people around you should something unfortunate ever happen to you.

I'm sorry if I misinterpretted your post. Also, before this get's any closer to being a full out flame war, I'm going to leave this thread. I know I met a lot of disagreement, but hopefully I've at least gotten some people to think about it a bit.

BigGov

The thing I hate is many people just have no respect for people who are from the other viewpoint.

Many people are right in this thread saying that many people who do use SUV's do not need them. Packing stuff into an SUV is a lot easier, but a respectable amount of things (short of furnature) is easily stored in a normal sized car with fold-down rear seats.

Many people are right in this thread saying that SUV's are better in winter weather. 4WD doesn't slow you down any faster (unless it's a stick and you know how to properly using engine braking), but many times it's the GROUND CLEARANCE people need. I'm from bumblefuck Wisconsin, I'm used to winter weather on little used roads. I can get through them oftentimes with my little piece of shit Saturn, but I have to WORK. HARD. It's not fun, it's not easy, and it SUCKS. Meanwhile, if I have a nice big 4WD SUV (which I luckily have access to most often in this type of weather), I'm able to drive through nice and easily. So what? What's the big deal? I'm used to the weather, I can adjust for shitty driving conditions, but some people just can't. Some drivers just suck, and in order to get from place to place in this area in the winter, they NEED a vehicle with ground clearance and most likely 4WD.

Many people never understand the intended purpose of SUV's and trucks until they see an unplowed highway the day after Christmas and a car that has snow well deeper than it's bumper. Now imagine having to drive to work, town, or some other place. Immediately.

SUV's have a purpose. You might not see them, but some people do.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

splck

I live and have lived in Canada most of my life so I think I know what I'm talking about. I agree that chains aren't handy, but they sure as heck are easy to use. You can have a set of cable chains on in no time, all you need to do is practice a bit. I've been using cable and heavy chains for over 25 years without too much of a problem.

Just so you know, I own a big-ass 4WD pickup now and several others over the years and I too leave my drop hitch on to fuck up any would be rearenders. My only comment was that people don't need them as much as they think they need them and that city slickers look silly driving around in them.

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nice line eh?

Vaultboy

My mom is considering trading in her Ford Focus a Hyundai Tucson. She doesn't really need a SUV, but then again, few people do. The most ground clearance she'll need is to go over speedbumps. I'll probably go softroading with it more than her. Personally, I'm neutral towards the concept of SUVs. They have their uses, and if you're prepared to pay for the fuel and the high maintenance and insurance, then go for it.

What I don't like is totally unnecesary oversized V8 (and higher) powered SUV's and Trucks. And the fact that the higher most drivers sit, the shittier they drive, and the less considerate they become.

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CrazySaturn

I know it's a summation of all the prior points, but I might as well add my $0.02.
I drive a small car, namely a 2500 pound 1994 Saturn SL2. While everyone in their SUV's trumpets their safety and usefulness, all I see is this:
-More chance of me dying in an accident with one
-More chance of damage to my car if I get into an accident with one
-Me not being able to see around SUV I'm next to, leading me to possibly get hit when I try to pull out into intersection etc.
-Me not being able to see above and past SUV I'm behind at intersection, leading me to drive through intersection on late yellow or red due to me not being able to see light
-Me getting hit when person in SUV forgets that AWD only gives better acceleration, not braking and handling

Also, the whole "why don't I move up in size" argument is horrible. SUV's lose in almost every aspect of driving. Need space? Get a wagon, great alternatives. The few legitimate reasons I see for having a SUV are towing capability (which I rarely RARELY see put to good use) and offroad driving, which I see used fewer than towing.

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What's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold? One's a sick duck...I can't remember how it ends, but your mother is a whore!

Lockjaw

Reasons 3 and 4 are purely all YOUR fault not the fault of the SUV. Here is what I really don't get about the people with this fear of SUVs...if you are so damned scared of them...get the hell away from them in traffic. It's really not that hard and before anybody tells me yes it is hard I'll invite you to come ride with my in rush hour traffic in Dallas where every other vehicle on the road is a large truck or SUV and I mean that in the most literal sense possible. You see a giant H2 barrelling down on you...get the hell out of the way. You can't see around the SUV...back off of it like you SHOULD do if you get near a tractor trailor.
I dunno maybe it's because I grew up driving around giant trucks that the SUV thing doesn't bother me when I'm in a smaller car when I'm on the road I'm more concerned about the little turd in the compact car that thinks it's an F1 racer weaving in and out of traffic than I am of the slow lumbering SUV of which I can easily spot coming or easily avoid if I need to.
Just use the same rules you apply to the 18 wheelers and you should be ok. If one is coming up on you at a high rate of speed...get out of the way.
If one is in front or to the side of you assume they do not see you and watch for them to move into your lane and if at all possible(which it usually is) back well off from them.
If you are pulling out from an intersection that has a large SUV blocking the lane slowly....edge out until you can see around them or simply just WAIT until they move and your path isn't obstructed.

xxSquirtxx

No, I don't agree. I love my SUV. I wish I had the money for an "extra" car to drive around town in, but I don't, so I drive my SUV all the time. Such is life, and no, I'm not giving up my big vehicle that is awesome on trips just because I can't afford a small car for around town.

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Lyaec123

Yea true there are a lot of soccer moms that drive SUV's unnecessarily, and that's what everyone against SUV's here seems to be trying to get to. On the other hand there are just as many people that actually do gain advantages from driving an SUV, and that in not necessarily for the SUV opponents to decide. Fortunately or unfortunately in thier case the country we live in is based on the principles of free choice, and while people may not always make the best choices youre going to have to live with them. If I wanted to waste the time and money getting certified for air brakes I could drive a damn semi to work every day if I wanted, so it's not like there's nothing worse out there.

Its harmful to the environment (energy wasted) for anyone to get a house larger than they absolutely need, yet nobody criticizes a family for moving into a house with a little more room if they have the money. Face it, we're a country of luxuries, life is not dictated by the bare minimum you can get away with.

dmt767s

I dont "hate" SUVs, I think they are, for the most part, un-necessary. I've gone through plenty of crappy Missouri winters without AWD, ice and snow that doesn't get cleared off due to city ineptitude. I totally understand why people would like SUVs, even if they dont take them off road, but I'd rather have a Volvo wagon, or even better a Magnum.

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w00t

canucker

Reasons I own a 4x4 V8 Gas guzzling pick up:

-4X4=ground clearance=good for camping and fishing.

-V8= more torque to pull my 3500 pound boat through the Rocky Mountains.

-pickup bed= more room so I can develop my basement, haul my ball stuff , hual camping crap etc etc (ohh and it's a hell of a lot easier to throw all my shit in the back of the pick up than anything else I've ever owned).

All around good vehicle for the crappy weather we get here in Calgary. You own chains? Good for you, get out and put them on in -45 degree weather. Hey, I can afford it so why can't I drive it?

What about all the contractors/farmers that have to own a big V8 etc etc to do work? Should they be taxed just like the soccer moms out there that use it?

P.S. It's not me that I'm worried about in my vehicle, I haven't been in an accident for over ten years. It's the moron in the other vehicles out there. I think we all call this defensive driving..........

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Go hard or go home;
Just don't go home hard.

CrazySaturn

Perfect example yesterday, I was on a 4 lane local road at an intersection with another major 4 lane road. I was trying to take a right on red onto said road, but an Avalanche in the lane next to me had pulled into the intersection far past the crosswalk, not allowing me to see any traffix coming whatsoever to the point where my car had to be literally IN the intersection for me to see past. Eventually I got into the intersection but the presence of the truck made it an absolute pain in the ass, solely due to the fact that the avalanche driver wanted a better view. If they were in a car there would have been no problem as I could have seen through their windows/over their hood. I live in the suburbs. No one sans maybe 5% of the population truly needs a truck.

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What's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold? One's a sick duck...I can't remember how it ends, but your mother is a whore!

Captain Nemo

OK, Crazy, since you know the overall population, my two cents:

I have always driven a Chevy Blazer (MI and IN winters can be a bitch). I have three children from my first marriage (all under the age of 14). My ex-wife refuses to drive them to meet me so I do all of the driving. It is a 2.5 hour drive each way, so first off, spacing the kids apart in the car is a blessing.

Also, the majority of the drive are backroads that get plowed last, so the traction and security of having the SUV is also a blessing.

I recently traded the Blazer in for an Expedition. I personally didn't want to get the bigger vehicle, but seeing as how my new wife is pregnant, I just ran out of room in the Blazer, unless I wanted to strap someone to the roof.

Also, don't even go down the path of minivan, nope, no way, no how.

Also, try having 5 people in a vehicle and make the rounds at Christmas when you are making a 3 state trek.

SUV owner and proud of it

frogza

I would love an SUV(any Jeep) Right now I have a 2001 corolla. I live in Cedar City, Ut. Right now we have snow on the ground and will likely have over a foot at some point this winter. I haven't had problems driving my car in the snow, just slow down and think a little bit more and it goes fine. So the argument for having an SUV for driving in snow, to me is ridiculous. If you can't handle snowy streets without an SUV its time for you to move to Arizona, where it's not an issue!

I want one because I am a rock climber, I simply can't get to where I want to climb in my car, and I'm tired of hiking for an hour to climb for an hour. In the summer I spend roughly 7-10 hours a week hiking, another 10-15 climbing. In the winter its snowshoeing, snowboarding and some climbing still.

xxSquirtxx

Amen to all that...especially having the kids separated!!!

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xxSquirtxx

Those of you who do own SUVs, how many downright hostile drivers do you encounter? I mean, beligerant asswipes who go waaaay under the speed limit in their little rice grinders just to piss you off? I see that more than anything. Very blatant hostility toward SUV drivers.

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shakran

SUV's are not safer than cars. Ever. Period. If you want safety, you want a car. SUV's have greater rollover risk.

I know that your truck took the brunt of the impact, but then I got T-boned by an explorer while driving an old civic hatchback, it caved in the side of my car, and I walked away with nothing more than a bump on the head where I hit it on the door and a cut on my shoulder where the seatbelt dug into me as it was holding me in.

In other words, any decent vehicle will protect you in a crash like that.

There are some studies that suggest the higher rigidity of a truck frame results in greater transferral of impact to the driver than what you see in a more crushable car frame, btw.



As to the overall argument, I think SUV's have their place. I use one myself as a news vehicle and I'd hate to use anything different - it's got the room I need for my masses of camera gear and it's got the 4x4 offroad capability to get that gear where I need it.

On the other hand, I also think SUV's are the latest penis extenders for our society. People who don't need them are getting them so they can feel like they're macho out on the highways, then they drive like jackasses because they feel that "bigger has the right of way" applies to land vehicles, and not just boats.

pocon1

I see that most of the suv supporters on this describe themselves as rural boat-haulers that live in that arctic. How about some posts from the little bitchy Austin and Atlanta and Washington DC girls and boys that get one because their rich daddy got them one to take to American University or UT? Most of the suv supporters have given fairly legitimate reasons to do with work, larger families(ever hear of condoms?) big toys like quadwheelers or boats. that is all fine and dandy. However, I would bet that the majority of SUV owners do not fall into that category. If I had a ranch or farm, then I would get an suv. As far as the snow, When I was skiing in Canada last year, most of the cars were fwd econoboxes but they all had snow tires.
Also, someone mentioned that their suv gets 18-20 mpg, while their family's ,minivan got 20-22. That is a 10% difference, which really is pretty large. Imagine if America had a 10% difference in all fuel consumption.

merkerguitars

They do have their places, like my mom, she uses it to haul bags of milk replacer (has to be transported in a dry dry enviroment from one customers house to another) plus we use it to two the boat and for going into the words for hunting. If she didn't have a need for one she would be driving a car. The thing that pisses me off about them is everyone driving them cause they feel they are safer or better in the winter, hell 80% of the vehicles I see in the ditch during winter in Wisconsin are SUV's, guess what 4wd doesn't make you stop any better. Also it pisses me off at the i'm bigger and tougher than you idea (alot of people drive crazy cause they think the are king of the road). And for and example accident wise a lady in a Tahoe hit my roomate with his Mazda 626. The Mazda absorbed alot of the impact which totalled it. But the Tahoe shot across 3 lanes of traffic, proof it's better to absorb energy than deflect it like a raquet ball.

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pocon1

Again, you have a valid reason. The people who are posting to support suvs here on this formum have generally put a little thought into it. I think the majority of people in the US have not. I won't tell them that they cannot have one, but I think many should be better-educated before making that choice.

ARTelevision

SUVs are OK with me.

I don't use the term "feelings" when I'm talking about things.

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create evolution

Krycheck

I don't have problems with SUV's as a whole. I drive a Isuzu Axiom. It's a mid-size suv I guess. Mileage could be better but it could be way worse. I like driving sitting up high and being able to see over the car in front of me. My only complaint is that I can't manuver at high speeds like I'd like to (rollover of course). For that I have my C280 Benz

I do have a somewhat of a problem with people buying an over size SUV just because they can. It's rare that someone with a Excursion makes fulll use of it. I can recall only once or twice that I've seen one full. Seems like around here (East L.A.) they're just for the bling factor.
I have a co-worker that has a H2 and a Honda Accord. She says she hates driving the Accord cause it's "too small". And she doesn't complain about the fuel costs cause she doesn't pay for it

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His pants are tight...but his morals are loose!!

canucker

Amen to that brother!!

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Go hard or go home;
Just don't go home hard.

xxSquirtxx

Ever hear of people actually wanting large families??

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abscondo

Guys who drive Hummers are compensating.

(Yes, I'm sure there are a few people who actually need them. But for most people it's just psychological.)

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Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

abscondo

As as been pointed out by others, this isn't a very convincing argument to an SUV fan.

On the other hand, if it makes you feel any better, SUV owners are actually more likely to die in single vehicle accidents than those who drive cars.

When you look at the statistics for all types of accidents combined, SUVs and cars offer fairly equivalent protection -- it's just that each is superior in different types of accidents.

However, SUVs waste gas and therefore contribute needlessly to global warming, and to our oil consumption that helps put our national security at risk, and that's a shame. Yes, some people need them, but most don't.

The only thing that will pry people out of SUVs is the price of gasoline, which is why I'd like to see gas taxes raised. Even George Bush's chief economist once called the benefits from higher gas taxes "the closest thing to an economic free lunch." Of course, there's no chance of that happening, especially with this administration, which believes that every problem can always be solved by cutting taxes.

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Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

Nimisys

to those of you who like to leave drop hitchs on your trucks as a present to would be rearenders, you may want to think it through a bit more. sure you punch a nice hole in their radiator and what not... but the force of their impact goes through your drop hitch, into your trailer hitch, which is bolted directly to your frame. they hit hard enough and your frame is going bend. now you need a new frame, as it is not always possible to straigten them.

let your bumper do its job... and their crumple zone it's job.

splck

Fair point, but it'll have to be quite a hit in order to do the damage you're talking about (at least on my truck) and the car would hit the hidden hitch even if the drop weren’t there. The reason I leave my drop hitch on is more for people hitting it while parking than a high speed hit and to act a "feeler" while backing up against concrete walls.
It's also good for a laugh when friends whack their shins on it

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nice line eh?

DDDDave

But not so funny when I hit mine.

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I am just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe...

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Gnzo

Hybrid cars generate their own electricity to charge the batteries while breaking and running on gas, you don't plug them in. They are step in the right direction. In a couple of years we will problably start seeing the hybrid motors in Trucks too.

Nimisys

gm already offers the silverado in a hybrid form, with all the power of the normal 5.3 v8. on top of it they are being used ina city buses as well. in 2007 the tahoe/yukon and suburban/yukon xl will be offered in hybrid form. in 2005 the envoy will be offered in DoD trim with the v8.

LLL2

I Feel if people want to own what they want let them.The hybirds are coming and soon all the people will trade in their SUV in for an hybird SUV,Because of gas prices.About the crash thing doesn't make sense to me.Anyone can kill anyone out there,size doesn't matter.It's about the speed.Plus something I see alot that ticks me off about people driving talking on a cell phone,reading a book,putting make up on,eating, anyways, these are the people that get people killed/hurt.


You can probably make another thread about sport cars too.

djbrucelee

I don't mind SUVs in general. But the Porche one is the ugliest thing i've ever seen.

Rlyss

We have freedom of choice in our purchases, nobody's going to hassle me in the supermarket for buying a 3 litre jug of milk instead of the 1 litre carton, nobody's going to cry murder when I decide to go for a stereo with 2-foot high speakers instead of a little compact mini-stereo.

However...

What if I choose to drive a bus to the supermarket, or what if I want to drive a semi-trailer when I take my kids to school in the morning? I need a special licence for these things, I need to apply and justify my need for a bus or a semi-trailer in my driveway.

And I feel the same way about SUVs. You people who live on farms and in the snow, you're fine, you've got reason to do so. If you're truly a soccer-mum or a modern/liberated 'power woman' driving an SUV to the office then no way, no SUV licence for you. Nobody cries about a lack of freedom of choice when they're denied a semi-trailer licence, do they?

My concern with SUVs isn't about fuel use or emissions, it's about size and safety of everyone around. I can't see around an SUV, I can't see them make eye contact with me so I know they've seen me so they won't pull out in front of me, I am terrified they won't stop in time, and worst of all they can't see my car (once a Mistubishi Magna wagon) and reverse into it because their rear view mirrors just look right over the top of the car. You can say it's not the car's fault, and that's the result of bad driving, and I totally agree with it. That's exactly why I think there should be a special licence to drive an SUV, a licence that acknowledges that you have a need for it (just like a semi-trailer or a moving van), AND that you know how to drive it. If you've got an SUV licence then that's fine, I see you've justified to the road authorities that you need it and I'll keep my mouth shut. Mack truck drivers need special licences, manual transmission drivers need special licences (where I live), and motorcyclists need special licences, so I don't see anything far-fetched about requiring an SUV licence. Obviously this would be phased in over a period of time so people now who needlessly drive SUVs are ok, since they shouldn't be punished for breaking a law that doesn't yet exist, or didn't exist when they bought the car.

If a smaller car is at fault with an accident with an SUV then it's still that person's fault. Accidents happen no matter how hard we try to prevent them, but still there's fault involved. But still, there is courtesy and compassion. I wouldn't rig my car body up to electrify any car that hits me, or add spikes to my car just so that anyone who hits me gets all the damage. That's a terrible idea, and I think so is the mindset that 'If it's someone else's fault then I don't care what happens to them.'

Edit: I just wanted to add that I think the worst is yet to come with SUVs. At the moment, for the past ten years or so since SUVs have really taken off and gone from a tiny share to a huge share of the market, most drivers of SUVs are older and more experienced. There are a lot of college kids driving them but I think the majority are older.

And as these cars get older, they're more likely to become the hand-me-downs, or the ones that the parents give their kids as a first car when they graduate. Unskilled, young drivers in a little ricer car is one thing, but having unskilled, young drivers (I'm no exception here) driving these tanks in the next ten years or so is where I think we'll really see the dangers of SUVs on the roads. More SUVs now mean more SUVs in the future, driven by younger kids as hand-me-downs and the inexperience combined with the weight and size of these things will mean lotsa danger. If you think there won't be younger kids in the near future driving the current-model SUVs then just look at the cars they (non-trust fund kids) drive today - they're the previous decades' standard.

Coppertop

F=ma

SUVs tend to have a lot of mass.

narf!

Their good for offroading. Esp. in the backlots of missoura

Boo

Not to threadjack.

My brither-in-law said it best, "Better 2 in braces than 5 that need them."

I stopped at 2, they both needed braces.

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Back button again, I must be getting old.

xxSquirtxx

Yep, same here, but I don't begrudge anyone who wants lots of chitlins.

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jorgelito

I have a question for all thos people who say they like SUVs cause they can "see" better; over all the other cars etc. What happens when everyone has SUVs? You're back at square one, and we have less space to drive, park. It IS like "an arms race". We'll all just keep on getting bigger cars..What's next? H3? H4? How about Bradley Fighting Vehicle, civilian model, Fallouja Edtion? How cool would that be?