phyzix525

Well I was looking for a RWD car, but I was able to pick up this 89 Honda Accord LXI from a friend for $400. I was thinking about swapping the engine with a H22a, or a B series. Now I am only going to have this car for a few months, really I am just wanting to do this so I can learn how to swap an engine. I am planning on getting a 90-93 integra, and putting the new engine in it, but thats a ways off. I want to get the motor that will be easy enough to put in the integra and eventually add a turbo. So my question is would it be cheaper (engine and turbo) to do a B series or the H22? and what difference in power would I get? Any help you guys can give would be appreciated! thanks

Stare At The Sun

I don't understand why you would want to do this, honestly. Why wouldn't you just get a car that comes with a turbo from the factory. Running boost on a car that wasn't designed for it, without upgrading the internals is going to spell problems.

Just my .02, but it seems like a lot more trouble than its worth, and i'm sorry, but honda engines are shit for performance(nsx aside . However, don't plan on having VTEC and a turbo, that always leads to problems.

phyzix525

??? First off I don't think there are many factory turbo charged cars that I can afford, and who's to say that I am not planning on doing internal modifications to the engine. I just want to know which engine is cheaper for these such mods and if the difference in power is worth the cheaper engine.

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bad30th

For the most part, Honda + Turbo = baaaaaad. Honda engines have always been designed to be a high-revving NA motors, usually with high compression to make more power NA, and high compression is not a good thing to add boost to.

Personally, if you really want to turbo a car, hold out for a Nissan 240sx and do a turbo motor swap on ii....you would have lots of 4-cyl turbo motor choices (SR20, CA18), and theres even a few 240's running around with inline 6 turbo motor swaps (RB20, RB25).....

shakran

c'mon guys, where'd you hear all this stuff? Honda motors love turbos. Most of them will take 9lbs of boost with NO buildup whatsoever.

If you're planning on dropping this engine into an Integra, I'd probably stick with the B18. Make sure it's an A or B, not a C or C5 motor, as VTEC and boost, while doable, present a LOT more tweaking problems than normal engines. A turboed B18 in an integra would be plenty fast.

Do you really want a turbo though? That's good for overall performance, but a lot of people like that "kick in the ass" feeling of instant power, which you'll get from supercharger. Friend of mine has a supercharged B18 in his 95 Civic and the thing goes like crazy. Oh, and Stare-at-the-Sun, his car routinely beats LS1 corvettes on road tracks. How is that shit for performance? It's all in the power-to-weight ratio and in the fact that he can corner a lot faster than them

phyzix525

OK, so what do superchargers cost and what do you need to do to an eninge in terms of build up? I was looking at Integras on ebay and allthough I like the look of the 2nd generation integras, there just are not enough of them. So a 3rd is now an option, with that said should I look at getting the GSR? and just add a turbo and not mess with an engine swap? Or should I get like say an LS and do the engine swap, I am not sure if spending more for the GSR is better over the engine swap.

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shakran

I'd go with an LS. It has everything the GSR has except leather (which I consider a detriment as you tend to slide around in the seat more in the corners), and it runs the B18 A or B. The GSR was the B18-C VTEC engine which makes boost trickier. That and the LS is much less likely to have been beat on than the GSR since all the racer wannabes went with the GSR.

Superchargers can be anywhere from $500 to $2000 depending on where you buy them and whether you have them installed for you or not. Buildup is unnecessary unless you plan to run more than 9lbs of boost (the Jackson Racing supercharger, which is pretty much THE supercharger to get for Honda motors, does not run more than 9lbs with it's stock pulley, so you're pretty much ready to go with it). If you're running turbo, the most common way to do it is to raid the junkyard and pull one off of a mitsubishi, then run the plumbing yourself.

An intercooler is highly recommended, and don't do what one guy I know did and forget to put a blowoff valve on unless you want reduced performance, more likelihood of breaking (happened to him) and you want your car to sound like the Jetson's car every time you get off the gas (this part was really funny actually).

The only big caution is to make SURE your cooling system is up to the task. If your radiator has busted fins, replace it. It's having to cool an engine that generates more heat, while being blocked by both the air conditioner AND the turbo intercooler. Overheating is the most common problem in Hondas when the turbo is installed by someone who doesn't do the groundwork right.

It sounds like you don't have a lot of exp. with turbos, so if you go junkyard diving for one, be sure to take someone along who does have experience so they can examine the turbo with you and make sure it's OK - the junkyard will charge you the same whether the bearing is bad or not

If you want to run more than 9lbs of boost (you won't, at least, not at first - 9lbs on a lightweight Honda is a serious kick in the pants), you'll need to build up the internals to take it. Like I said though, that's gonna be a long way in the future for you - you'll be having too much fun with 9lbs to worry about messing with buildups.

Stare At The Sun

Lets see here 1st gen Eclipse talon or laser 4G63 + AWD at about 3,000 dollars

MR2 around 4500 (though hard to find)
Supra ~ 4000
Dodge Stealth TT ~ 6500


I would go with the DSM myself, the 4g63 is a great engine, bulletproof, and can hold an insane amount of boost. and Shakran, i'd pit ANY dsm with the same amount of money put into it as your friends car, and laugh as he gets smoked by a bus length +.

Bad30th is right on, they are high revving NA engines(honda), plunking down a turbo probably isn't a good idea, especially if its your first time doing it. Just do it right, and get a car w/ a turbo stock.

phyzix525

Reliability is still important to me, is the mitsubishi a reliable car? I have heard some really bad things about them. And finding a supra that is indecent condition around Oklahoma is a bit hard.and I would not buy anything made by dodge.

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shakran

ANY DSM??? ANY? Hell I'll take your Montero on in my NA Civic any day of the week!

I'll also pit his car up against just about any eclipse too. BTW last year it outran a WRX by quite a bit, and I'll put a WRX up against anything but the EVO.

bad30th

I am sorry Shakran, but you are wrong on this one. I'm not sure who you've been talking to but I know quite a few guys who are pretty heavy into Honda tuning and work at import tuner shops......Hondas dont like boost. Period.

I know you have a turbo Honda, and thats cool, but my point is, guys who are far more serious than you or your buddy about Honda performance steer quite clear of turbos.

Why do you think there are no factory turbo Hondas? Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, Saab, VW and Volvo all produce factory turbo cars....why not Honda? Shit even Honda's supposed "supercar" NSX is N/A. Why? Because, like I said before, Honda opts to make their power with a tightly wound, high-compression, very high-revving engine. The compression on a stock B18c is right around 11:1, and stock B16a and H22a engines are about 10.5:1. Those kinda of compression ratios are not boost friendly. Anyone who knows anything about boost could tell you that.

shakran

Sorry, but you are the one who is wrong. I also know a good many honda tuners (and none of them are half assed, they're serious about it too), and the boosted Hondas are doing quite well, going much faster than stock, and many of them didn't even get their turbos until over 150,000 miles were on the engine. As long as you keep it 9lbs and under, and you don't start with a rough engine, you'll be fine. Try it.

BTW I do not own a turbo honda - mine is NA, mainly because I'm a cheap bastard who has never spent the money to boost it. That will hopefully change soon

If Hondas hate boost so much, why does Jackson Racing make a supercharger for them? Why is it so common to see turboed/supercharged civics, CRX's, Integras, and Preludes?

Stare At The Sun

^ You will see those cars for about a month. Then the engines go boom.

And the last time i checked, the DSM's i was refering to were Eclipses, talons and lasers. And I also said w/ an equal amount of money put into them. Your "friends" are we we call "ricers". And just so you know, the EVO has the SAME engine as all turbocharged eclipses/talons/lasers. Plunk down 5 grand on a DSM, and i'll be smoking almost any civic you wanna put up.

Face it man, honda's are simply not meant to be "built" cars, they are not meant for speed, they are meant to get groceries. You want a fast grocery getter, get a galant vr-4!

One more thing FWD sucks.

However, to answer the original posters question about mits reliablity, be prepared for general maintence, and be prepared to get your hands dirty. However, it's worth it, the sound of a big20g spooling would make you orgasm.

shakran

Really? That's amazing. My friends must be magicians because they've had turbos/superchargers in their cars for years now and they have yet to blow up an engine. One of them is even being a moron and running 11lbs with no buildup, and his engine has 200,000 miles on it and doesn't even leak oil. Yeah, I guess Honda motors just can't take boost at all. How silly of me.

My friends are not ricers - they install real go-fast parts, not stickers. You're starting to sound like what we call a "redneck," someone who thinks all Hondas are rice cars. And BTW, where the hell did you get 5 grand? That much would get you forced induction in at least 3 Hondas. Or do you have a shop do all your work? And if FWD sucks so much why are you talking up the Eclipses? They're FWD too you know.

Seems to me that if you bothered to actually learn something about Hondas you'd realize that both mitsus AND hondas are very good cars.

bad30th

sorry....for some reason I thought I read somewhere on here that you did

Because people will buy it. Plain and simple.

It isnt common at all. Because real tuners who know their shit dont do it, and other people like to turn the boost up and they go boom.

Look I think you are missing my point. I am not saying that you cant turbo/SC a Honda. I am not saying that if you do, it cant be made fast. My point is that Honda engines were never designed with anything but high-revving N/A power in mind.

Theres a reason Honda manufacturers never produced a turbo car. And since they are the actual engineers, I would tend to trust them over a buddy or two of yours that said, "Man wouldnt it be cool if i added a turbo to this Honda.....just to see if I can do it without it blowing up??......Wow it hasnt blown up yet....must be absolutely safe and reliable.....damn I know so much more than Honda engineers do."

So, to the original poster, I am telling you.....like I said before.....adding a turbo to a Honda is not a good idea. Honda engineers agree with me. Shakran and his buddies dont. So I guess believe who you want.....

Just go find a turbo Toyota (Supra, or MR2 turbo if you can afford it) or a decent Nissan 240sx and swap in an SR20. Done and done.

shakran

Tell me if I get what you are saying. You are saying that if a car didn't come with the option of a turbo straight from the manufacturer, that's die-hard proof that the engine can't take a turbo? I have a feeling Mr. Shelby and Mr. Lingenfelter might disagree with you there.

To the original poster:

here. http://crx.honda-perf.org/forums/vie...446aaa6b3d86ea

Go talk to the guys on there. Many of them have been running forced induction on D and B series motors for years. They'll reassure you that it's OK to run boost on a honda.

Honda didn't offer forced induction on their motors because 1) it would drive up the cost and 2) it would drive down the gas mileage. They built their reputation on building relatively inexpensive, reliable as hell cars that sipped gas. Boost would violate that formula. Arguing that you can't do it just because the manufacturer never offered it is circular. By that argument, I can't put a performance suspension on a mustang because they never came from the factory with that suspension. I can't use a K&N filter on just about any car because they don't come from the factory that way. No synthetic oil either. Oh, and you can't EVER run nitrous because there aren't any cars that come from the factory with it.

Point is, just because they didn't offer it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Might wanna ask your honda gurus if they're avoiding boost just because they think it will grenade the engine (it won't IF they're not stupid about it) or because it would disqualify them from the class they're racing in. They ARE racing, right?

Stare At The Sun

^ *sigh* you honda fanboys will never learn.

You're obviously totally ignorant to this. Even though its very obvious that putting a turbo on a car that was not designed for it is stupid. And considering you have to upgrade the internals, fuel system, electronics, etc to do it, you'd be better off putting that $ into a car that can actually be made fast.

Oh, and i'm sure honda is really worried about gas mileage on the NSX, RSX, Prelude, S2000, and Integra. Honda builds high reving NA engines, as bad30th said. s2000 redlines at what, 9 grand? They do not have the internals to do it, and VTEC and turbo's do NOT mix.

And really, anyone that is serious about tuning, unless they want a challenge, does not go with a honda. Your fanboy friends are nothing more than trendy ricers.

bad30th

OK this is the last time I will explain this to you, because again, you are obviously missing my point.

You can do anything you want to any car you want. Dont take what I'm saying and twist it into asenine examples.

What I am saying is.....it is a very bad idea to just add a turbo to a stock internal, stock compression Honda. But like I said....you can do anything you want to any car. To make a turbo Honda with any kinda of reliability, a person would need to drop the compression to 9:1 or so, replace all of the internals with forged components, and completely upgrade the fuel system. Now, we have a project that is neither cost-effective or time-efficeint, and will require more knowledge than the average do-it-yourselfer Honda guy has.

Shit you can turbo fucking 3-cyl Geo Metro and make it fast is you have to time, money, and know-how.

Now an older Supra or MR2 are a no-brainer. A 240sx would require a little more know-how, but you still dont even need to open the motor up. Hell theres even tuner shops that'll do the motor swap for you for cheaper than safely turbo'ing a Honda.

Summary, so you get me this time: You can turbo a Honda all you want. Turbo'ing a stock-internal Honda is a bad idea, and to make it safe and reliable requires lots of know-how, time, and even more money.

Let try to actually understand what each other are saying instead of blowing what was said out of proportion. K Thanks.

phyzix525

OK guys break it up. I know Hondas can handle turbos, with some upgrades, but I don't want to spend that kind of money if i don't have to. It was just thinking it would be fun to switch out engines in this car I got for almost nothing cause it would not cost me so much. Now I think I may just leave it alone and just buy me a decent car later. thinking supra, or 240sx or eclispe. Thanks guys for your indepth discussion.

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It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

Peryn

As for the boost question...hondas are definately not the most boost freindly cars. they WERE designed for high revving, high compression, n/a power. That said, lots of people do turbo them, and make them last, sometimes some people can figure out how to do it for cheap too. And just because it wasn't produced with a turbo, doesn't mean it cant handle one. Example : Mazda Miata. Probably the single BEST n/a engine to toss a turbo onto. You get mad power, and the internals are plenty strong enough for it, and keep the reliability and long life.

My advice : if you want to turbo a car, or get a turbo car, honda isn't the best choice. It can work, and quite a few people do it, just not the best choice for a turbo car.

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shakran

So you think insulting posts will change the truth? Last time I checked, modifying cars by definition is putting stuff on them that they weren't designed for. That's kind of the point of modifying a car - to make it better than it was when it was stock. And again, by your argument, you can't ever use nitrous, because NO car comes from the factory with nitrous. So are all the guys running spray stupid or what?

As for VTEC and turbos not mixing, say it real slowly with me. I never SAID you should put a turbo on a VTEC motor. I specifically said do NOT put a turbo on a VTEC motor unless you're willing to do a lot of work. Did you not read that part, or did you pretend I never said it so you could spray your "fanboy" bullshit a little more? Question: Do you think ALL hondas come ONLY with VTEC? Because there are a LOT of motors from honda that do not have it.

You say Hondas can't be made fast. I dunno, personally I think a streetable 9 second car is pretty damn fast. Especially when it can still get double-digit fuel economy on the street.

You're obviously one of those guys who doesn't understand that some people actually LIKE hondas, KNOW that hondas aren't designed to compete with muscle cars, and actually LIKE the fact that they can corner well. You keep driving whatever the hell it is that turns your crank, and I'll keep driving my hondas. Why do you feel the need to get insulting about it when someone likes a different car than your favorite?

Christ this domestic vs. import driver petty bullshit has gotten old. Sorry, but to be blunt, anyone who can't see that both cars have their advantages and disadvantages, and who can't see liking hondas does not automatically make you a fanboy, or a riceboy, is a moron.

bad30: I get your point. I disagree with your point. It is not a bad idea to add forced induction to a stock internal, stock compression honda, as long as you are not stupid about it and avoid cranking the boost too high.

Of course you're gonna want to up the fuel delivery (usually a fuel pump is all you'll need - you don't usually even have to upsize the injectors - most shops that do the injector and fuel pump end up turning out cars that run WAY too damn rich) but that kinda goes without saying, doesn't it? I mean, you don't say that it's a dumbassed idea to upgrade the brakes on the car just because in order to get the best performance out of them you'll need tires that have good enough grip to make use of the extra braking do you? So yeah, you'll need to get more fuel to the engine because the turbo is stuffing more air in. I thought that was pretty obvious.


Of course making it safe and reliable requires time and knowhow. I thought that also went without saying. Was I wrong? As for money, well hell, you can do it pretty damn cheap. As far as dollars per horsepower, boost is one of the absolute cheapest ways to modify a honda. I mean, you can spend $100 on an intake that gives you maybe 2hp if you're lucky, or you can spend $1000 or so on a supercharger that gives you 40. You do the math.

phyzix525

I am pretty sure that the original miata engine is from a 323 wich was a turbo engine, thus the internals can handle a turbo much better then a honda.

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It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

pocon1

Just a few points: Bad30th, the gsr has a 10:1 compression, the Type R has 10.5:1 compression.
You can put a little boost into a honda, but not much. These are small engines with very high factory output, so there is not a lot of room to play around. The Jackson racing supercharger is about 5 lbs of boost, 7 if you get the upgraded pulley.
the b18c is an open deck, which allows great coolant flow but is not as stout as a closed deck. That is why some companies make deck guards or rings. Dayton or Dart, whichever company now makes b18 blocks that are closed deck and designed to be boosted or nitroused or whatever.

Peryn, you mentioned the mazda miata as a good engine to turbo. The compression for the n/a and the turbo 323 engine are way different. I actually had for a couple of years a 323 gt (sedan). When the turbo blew, I in my ignorance asked why the same engine couldn't be used without the turbo. The new mazdaspeed turbo miata only goes up to 178 hp, about a 35 hp increase.

bad30th

Umm, ok....so? Still too high to put any decent amount of boost into. At that CR, I'd say 5-6# of boost tops, and even then, its probably just a matter of time before it pops.


Shakran: OK, I will agree to disagree with you.

shakran

Sounds good man! btw, i know that 6-9lbs of boost doesn't sound like much, but on the honda platform it makes a big difference. When you consider that many hondas come stock with under 150hp, adding that extra 20-50hp means a lot more than adding 50hp to, say, a Mustang Cobra.

bad30th

very good point....my brain likes to think in terms of V8's and such, where 40-50 hp isnt really worth all the trouble of a turbo setup, but yeah 50hp on a Honda is usually like a 50% increase I can respect that.

usualsuspect

If you want a cheap but solid motor that will swap into your accord and is good for boost try a f22b1 or f22b2 (135hp and 145 hp). It is a stock accord motor (mines in a 96) from early 90s to 2002. The have relatively low compression (8.5:1) for honda motors and have a reputation for strength and reliability.

Just something to think about. A N/A H22a in your 89 accord or 90-93 integra will make for a pretty quick street car, but a lot of handling will be lost due to added weight of the motor.

phyzix525

How much weight are we talking here? and is the F22b JDM or USDM? and if I just deceide to keep my engine N/A, what would be the recomanded engine that would be decent, but cheaper?

taylorspl

Try 10-13#'s on our shit 91 Tucson gas on stock internals just fuel mods. When I state this I do mean properly tuned as about 80% of turbo honda's aren't.

taylorspl

H22 is the only motor I know of that goes in your car easily. My friend had a swapped I wanna say 90 accord and it was decently quick it ran about as fast as my 2g tsi with intake.

bad30th

I am very sorry to hear this.....when it goes, will there be a viewing? Will you be saying a few words in its memory?

The fact that you have a turbo and are running 10+ # of boost on stock internals means absolutely nothing except that you have a greater expendable income to waste on blowing up motors than most people....

I have personally seen at least 2 stock internal'd, supposedly "well-tuned" hondas running 10-12# of boost go pop. All it takes is time....

Good luck with that