bad30th

I am really curious about this one.

I happen to love GM vehicles, but I do like other cars as well. What I dont understand is why so many people absolutely hate GM. I drive a 97 Camaro Z28, so my experience is mostly with performance oriented vehicles, and it seems like in that crowd, imports lovers are especially against GM cars. I dont know how many of my import friends have sorta looked down on my car because its a Chevrolet....and then I proceed to blow them away (accceleration and handling, by the way).....after which my favorite response---> "Its just a Chevy."

Seriously tho, if you are going to say "Because they are pieces of shit" dont even bother posting in this thread. I dont want to hear about it. That is a completely unsubstantiated claim. VALID REASONING ONLY. If you want to say "Because I dont like they way they look"...OK I can understand that.

Honestly, "I dont like the way they look" is the only reason I can see to hate GM, at least from a performance standpoint. Maybe "Well my cousins sisters boyfriend drove a Chevy for a couple years and it was a piece of shit" lol

I dunno...help me out on this one guys....

Peryn

i dunno....the only other big reason i hear is because they are "cheap POS's". Well, hardly a reason, just an uninformed opinion in my mind. Most people seem to hate their interiors though. I dont know about you....but i have noticed every single car manufacturer out there who makes a car under 25k seems to pretty much all have the same cheapo interiors. Some use a cheap sray-on type that looks good, but peels. Some use fake leather crap...and some prefer hard plastic. Either way, seems to me like its not just GM with horrible interiors these days.

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Cynthetiq

I have always found the GM interiors to be lacking just a little more than everyone elses. The interiors are quite functional and utilitatarian and that's about it.

Same goes for Ford. The Dodge/Chrysler is only slightly above but not by much.

The japanese and euro cars, while they may have a bit more "design" behind them, can also be very plain, but doesn't have that cheap look to it for some reason.

Moving onto bodystyle.... I've not liked an American GM product in many many many years.

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rogner

I'm not a big fan of the engineered failure aspects. I have family members who have designed and worked extensively on old model GM vehicles (read: buicks) and I know for a fact that they are designed to fail precisely after a certain amount of miles. Kind of like a lightbulb.

Oh, and I dont like having two keys to drive my car. I like one. :P

edit: thats not to say that things havn't changed in either the key aspect or the engineered failure. I believe that a lot of changes have occured in an effort to make GM able to compete with some of the 'foreign' designed cars (foreign questionable as the global economy has brought us all a little bit closer together).. I'm not as knowledgable about their current reliability, but I probably wouldn't buy one. Reliability and performance are my main concerns for vehicles, and my last purchase was a toyota. (Was for the woman, she only needed reliability :-D)

Scorps

I like GM also but I'm more into the older models. The new models I would like to own from 2000 to 2004 is the checy S-10, Silverado SS, 2004 GTO, any year Corvette and if they build it the new Nomad.

But some of the sedans are nice like the new Malibu.

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General Giap

i find the malibu and the cavalier to appear cross-eyed, the interiors are cheap looking and they use the same dials and knobs in all cars, they keep the exterior looking the same for too many years.

why can't people say they are pieces of shit if that is thier opinion and they can state it if they want too.

laconic1

Working at a GM dealer for several years I can say the older GM vehicles (pre mid 90's roughly) were well below foreign competition in terms of quality. GM has made huge leaps and bounds in that department though. Also, GM isn't as high tech as far as variable valve timing, multi cam emgines, hybrids and other technologies, although that too is starting to change. The only possible knock on GM now is styling and interior, although even that is improving now. Once GM's reputation begins to improve, then their resale value will improve, which will help get rid of any valid gripe naysayers have about GM.

lakefire

GM has the best quality of any other domestic company. Brands such as Buick have been top ranking in JD Power for several years. They have indeed come a long way and in a few years they will be hands down the best cars on the road.

and to Cynthetiq: I don' tknow how you can say that you haven't liked a GM product in body style in many years?

Think of all the cars/trucks GM has built and to not like one of them is just rediculous. Corvette, hummer, Saab, CTS, Cadillac, pontiac. THere are just so many different stylesa nd different cars that not liking one proves your ignorance.

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pocon1

I like the new Cadillacs and the Corvette. I think that the rest have uninspired or downright ugly styling, and the interiors are horrible, at least on the lower end cars. We have had some different rentals, and the Corolla is much nicer than an escort zx2 or a chevy cavalier. I do like Fords more than Chevys. I like the ford focus, and I thought the Taurus was much nicer than the Chrysler Sebring. I don't need or want an suv, and the hummers look cool, but are less functional than a suburban that you can get in a diesel. And the new Chevy pickup truck thingy, I saw it at the DC auto show, and it is hideous. Plus, all of that go fast look, and it takes about 7 seconds to hit 60 mph because it weighs about 4000+ pounds. I could never buy that. For that money, give me a ford lightning so I can at least use the back and still haul ass. I would like to buy a American car, but I cannot afford a cadillac or a corvette. Plus, the Firebird/Camaro is now discontinued. I want the new Dodge Magnum srt-8, when it comes with the supercharged hemi. SWEEEET!

bad30th

By that logic I'm just going to go ahead and say that everything except GM is a piece of shit. Sound reasonable? No. Thats my point. It doesnt add anything to the conversation to just say "its a piece of shit," so to answer your question, no they cant (or shouldnt) just "say what they want to" because thats not at all what I asked for.

Sorry but that is a rumor. And illegal to boot. And as an engineering student I'd even go as far as to say that it isnt possible.

I have just one on my 97

Its been my experience that foreign vehicles require just as much maintainence as domestics. In fact, its a fact (I've worked on a few hundred cars over a few years time, as a credential )

As usual, I will completely agree with you Peryn You make a good point that while yes, some (or many, depending on who you talk to) GM interiors are cheap, the same is generally true across the board for all manufacturers in a certin price range.

Valid opinion, thank you for not saying "they piece of shit" and leaving it at that lol. I happen to agree with you about some of the cars.


Why does that matter? Just because they are discontinued doesnt mean every single one disappears off the planet...

You can buy a used 01-02 Camaro/Firebird/TransAm with less than 15k miles for around $15,000 to $17,000. It doesnt get any cheaper than that for the performance.

BulletBob

Camaros and all the other GM "performance" cars just don't appeal to me. I find all of them to be ugly vehicles with uninspired and boring styling. Cavaliers are a horrible attempt to compete with cars popular on the import scene.

pocon1

Bad30th,
I was just saying that they took one of their best-performing cars and got rid of it. Remember, I was the one who was surprised to see how well camaros and mustangs performed in autocrosses.

Where is Ashton, he should weigh in on this thread any second now.

I still don't understand how mustang so heavily outsold Camaro/Firebird throughout the past decade. Through the 90's, I think Camaros were better looking and seemed to have better performance, but Mustangs clobbered them in sales. I'm not against Mustangs, but I tend to look at performance first, especially if I were getting a pony car. Now Mustangs have gotten pretty good looking, and their SVTs are pretty damn fast.

bad30th

I know...i wasnt bashing you.

I honestly think the reason that Mustangs outsold F-Bodies is due largely to Gm's shitty advertising campaign.

Think about it. How many Ford commercials do you see with Mustangs in them. How often does.did Ford offer special dealson brand new Mustangs? How many ads were there in the paper for the Mustang?

Shitloads.

Now think about how many commercials, ads, or special deals there were on F-Bodies....

I saw Zero. None. Nada. Not even a picture of a Camaro in the auto dealer pages in the newspaper lol.

bad30th

So what does appeal to you? Just curious.

SVT01Cobra

Haha, dont listen to those Import ricers, there's nothing wrong with GMs.

None of those idiots know what the fuck they are talking about, they even thought it was impossible that a Cobra could go 160.

stingc

I never really understood why people hate interiors so much. It really bothers you that a panel gap is a little too large? I've only ever been in two cars with noticeably poor interiors - an early 80's chevy nova and a new mazda protege. The mazda was better, but it was also 20 years newer.

I don't think the interiors on even the lower end GM cars are all that bad. Cavaliers for instance look cheap inside, but the seats are reasonably comfortable. Much more expensive A4's and SLK's I've been in looked really good, but I couldn't stand sitting in them. (I'm not stating that these cars are comparable to the cavalier in other ways btw)

merkerguitars

Ok ok here is my stance how I feel about GM vehicles. There are some aspects of GM that I just fucking hate and yet there are some that I really love. I hate all chevy engines. They have poor designs of how they are laid out (I'm talking about small block and big block v8s) and the only reason its the v8 that survived out of the many divisions of GM is that they where the most produced and sold the most. I love older buick cadillac, pontiac and olds engines beautiful designs and built (back in the day cadillac had some of the best quality) I do hate the olds 307 though...it's a super weak engine and it's cousin the 403 had a short production run so some of the internals for that engine can cost a pretty penny. Today I hate pretty much any engine that gm makes besides the 3.8 (one of the greatest engines I can think of for terms of reliablity and power) and the cadillac northstar. The northstar is a product of cadillac making up for their mistakes in the 80's...I sadly owned one of those shitty 4.1 v8s......THe worst new engines I hate are the damn 3.1's and 3.4's fucking christ how ass backwards can you make an engine????? I've fixed 3 3.4's that have had bad intake gaskets....it's bullshit i tell yah. Now I kinda hate GM for having most of their stuff made in mexico but assemble in the USA, compared to how most honda's and toyota's are more american made. Granted gm has made some mistakes..(aka the quad 4 and their notoriously shitty head gaskets) but what car company hasn't?

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silent_jay

another unfounded opinion. not all people like *ricers* albiet Subaru is a Japaneese company i don't consider them in the *ricer* catagory as the civic, accord, integra etc are. exactly the thing bad30th did not want, saying theydon't know what the fuck they are talking about is the same as someone saying they don't like GM because they are shit.

not trying to start anything but that is the same thing.

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Scorps

I don't give a shit about the interior..I like them....its more of the exterior that I want to look nice!

bad30th

dude...you're telling me that a '68 Camaro is a pile of shit because its a Chevy and a '68 Firebird is not because its a Pontiac?

How bout a Pontiac Tempest and a Chevy Chevelle?

Designed by basically the same people lol sorry....


Hmm...I'm gonna have to go with....outperforming every other manufacturer out there in comparable price ranges. Thats why they sold the most. Honestly, I'd rather have a better performing, more complicated engine than a lesser performing simple engine. Thats why everyone is going to DOHC designs....better performing, but more complicated.


I dont understand your logic here....have you owned EVERY engine? Probably just that 3.8 and the Northstar, huh

Let me think of a few....

4.2L inline 6: 275 hp 275 lb-ft of torque. Out of a 6 cylinder. As much or more than V8 competators. Those are BMW I6 numbers.

5.3L V8: 295 hp 330 lb-ft torque.

6.0L V8: 345 hp 380 lb-ft torque.

LT1 V8 (from back in '93 even): 275 hp 325 lb-ft torque.

LS1 V8: 350 hp 375 lb-ft

LS6 V8: 405 hp 400 lb-ft

I could go on....

I really dont think you can argue those numbers, but hey...if you hate power, thats cool hehe just kiddin



I agree....worst engine EVAR.

Mine's assembled in Canada, eh?

good point

silent_jay

thank you just trying to keep things civil

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irseg

I love GM's powertrains. They are for the most part smooth, torquey, and reliable. Like a lot of people here, my main beef with GM is the hideous interior design.

I've been looking at some sportier midsize cars lately. I intended to drive a Grand Prix GTP, but after 5 seconds of sitting in the car I just left. There's no way I'd spend $30k on a car with such an atrocious interior. It was totally outclassed by everything else I looked at in its price range.

rogner--it's standard engineering practice to design parts with a certain lifespan in mind. Any manufacturer does it. Things don't last forever, and it's foolish for a company to spend extra money designing a component to last 200k miles if the rest of the car will typically be dead at 100k. A friend of mine designs wiring and electrical connectors for a supplier to various car companies, and it's the same thing. They're designed to last the expected lifetime of the car, in the environment they'll be placed in. No more, no less.

wdsrcr

Simple. I like Fords!
For shear power the late 60's early 70's Dodge and Plymouths were faster. Their styling appealed to less people though.
It is all in the eyes of the owner.

merkerguitars

I like those cars personally....but the thing i don't like about chevy engines are how they are engineered (spark plugs under the exhaust manifolds, distributor through the intake etch...granted they did make some nice special engines for the vette...

Lots of my friends have owned all varities of GM engines....3 of my friends own 3.4's and they have all had intake problems....I'm not saying any thing foreign is junk I like most foreign stuff....GM could take some lessons from them

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bad30th

now are you talking about the in block cam 3.4 or the DOHC (quad cam) 3.4?

I ask because i know the in block cam 3.4 is a derivative of the 3.1, which is a piece...and I have heard that there was a recall or something on the DOHC 3.4...i have also known people who have had problems with it.

bad30th

See now theres an honest answer! hehe

I like some Fords too, just depends on which ones you're talking about.

MSD

Lately, they seem to be paying more attention to profit than to quality. Take, for example, the plastic intake manifold on the 3100cc (3800?) that breaks after 80,000 miles, causing a bunch of damage.

The engine in my '97 Buick Century is the 3100 with the aluminum manifold. It's unrefined, lacks low-end torque, and produces less power than it should be producing for the fuel economy it gets. The automatic transmission shifts sluggishly, and the gearing drops the engine to well below the torque band on upshifts.

I think that they could work this out fairly easily, and without costing them much, so I dont' think they're really doing what they should as a car manufacturer. I also suppose my complaints come from the fact that I'm one of three poepl in the country who is under age 60 and drives a Buick Century, but I think they could do better.

bad30th

LOL that was funny

silent_jay

i owned a 92 century with 333,000 km on it car didn't owe mw anything it went all over Ontario and the US i got the car when i was like 17 or 18 not exactly a pimpin ride.

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shakran

People hate GM because they shot themselves in the foot.

For YEARS they made piles of stinking crap. They ran ads last year ADMITTING they made piles of stinking crap for years, and begging their customers to forgive them and give them another chance by trying the new stuff, but the jury is still out on whether that will work or not. the 80's and 90's saw GM products that were sloppily put together, the fit and finish was atrocious, the reliability was crap, the attention to detail was nonexistant, the paint on several of those years was junk that peeled in as few as 5 years, every GM brand was a direct clone of every other GM brand (hint: this is why Plymouth was killed off - Chrysler didn't want to make the same mistake). And as has been mentioned, their interiors have lately been acres of cheap looking gray plastic. Before that, even the upgraded cars (lumina Euro comes to mind) were widely known as having hellish red interiors that made it look more like a 70's porn club than a nice car.

Now, the jury is still out on whether the current GM products are crap or not. They haven't been around long enough to establish good reliability ratings. I will say, however, that the fit & finish on the ones I've been in lately has seemed to be better, although many of them still sport cheap-looking interiors. The company has promised that their products will be better than they were. Hope that's true, because they make some cool things and I'd hate to see them go belly up because they can't compete with the quality manufacturers out there.

bad30th

See this is my point...I've had many a conversation with my friends (who drive Toyotas, Dodges, Hondas) about interior quality, and we all agree that the interior in my car is just as nice as any of these.

I dunno, maybe its because I look more at the performance of a car than the all important interior, but i really dont think so

silent_jay

my friend owned a tacoma it had the worst interior i have ever seen grey drab plastic just terrible. performance is definitely more important than interior but i do like a comfortable seat that can make up for a bad interior.

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Kurant

I'll call BS on your "engineered failure" all day.

Before my '02 Silverado, and my WRX that I had, I had an 87 Pontic Grand Am parked in the garage, with a rebuilt engine 1 time in 287,000 miles. It never had a starter, 1 alternator, and the only thing that EVER failed in the entire car was the fuel gauge. I replaced the CV Joints, as they finally went bad at 226,000 miles. It started every morning, including in the winter, and people know how had Alaskan winters can get. I'd still have it right now if I wouldn't have been rear ended.

I guess the "engineered failure" was coming up soon, eh? Glad I got rid of that thing!

I love my truck, except the leather seats that have cracked in our cold spell up here. The interiors are carbon copys, everything bolts in, they look cheap, but they are functional and the truck rides and drives much better then my wifes Dodge.

coventryblack

I must concurr with Kurant... Engineered Failure??? I am not necesarily a GM guy but as far as the Buicks go, My Grandfather was given his company car when he retired; an 91 Le Sabre. The car is admiddetly no looker, but its got 330,000 on the clock an still going.

Now if the demographic that buys Buicks and Pontiacs used just happens to be trailer park trash that neglect oil changes and drive drunk, then failure might occur.

And, as far as the perfomance aspect, Buick did partner with Mclaren ASC to build the GNX, a giant in the international motorsports world...

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SVT01Cobra

Referring to several experiences on Ricer forums...

silent_jay

still afew bad people doesn't mean they are all that way.


here's what you originally posted now does this mean all people who like imports because thats what it looks like and if so that is unfounded because i doubt you have spoken to everyone who likes imports.

again not flaming but that is what it looks like.

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shakran

Well I like imports, and I believe a cobra can go 160. Am I a freak?

james t kirk

I hate all new GM's.

I love just about any GM from 70 on back.

Bit of a paradox eh?

Let me explain.

I own a 1997 Buick Park Avenue with a 3800 type K motor in it. (The suposedly bullet proof 3.8 right)

Well, let me tell you it is anything but bullet proof.

It features the famous plastic intake manifold previously mentioned on this thread. It cracked at 122,000 km or about 65,00 miles and DESTROYED the engine. The engine had to be replaced.

I did the work myself and i can tell you i have never seen a bigger POS part in my life than this plastic intake manifold. Bottom line, it's cheap and easy to make.

The dealers are changing these things 2 and 3 times a day. The dealer i went to told me that he usually keeps 5 or more of these things in stock. What does that tell you?

Make a long story short, I ended up suing GM in small claims court over this one. I can't reveal how much i got, but let's just say, it was worth it to sue the bastards.

I can't tell you how poorly GM treated me right from the dealer on up. Only when the court of Ontario told them to show up at such and such a time did they stand up and take notice.

Fuck GM, I will never ever ever buy one of their overpriced underdesigned pieces of crap in my life.

Unless it's a 65 vette. Now that's a piece of art.

Other problems with my car:

Leaky trunk (sometimes as much as 10" of water in it

Burned out dash lights all over the car (irreplaceable)

Rear window defroster that caught on fire (antena module and wiring harness actually)

Rear rotors that continually warp.

Heated seat that no longer heats ($1,800 for new heating elements)

Fuel gage that doesn't work anymore (fixed - sending unit)

Third alternator

Alarm sounds as i am driving down the street.

Clunky transmission

Leaky power steering pump.

Water pump failed.

A/ C compressor main bearing failed.

Cracked up leather seating.

Front wheel bearing gone

Holes in stainless steel muffler

Power door lock switch that fell into door

etc, etc,

That's why i hate GM

Poorly engineered, poorly designed, poorly built, unreliable, every time i get in the car i wonder if it's going to end up on the hook again.

Enka

The one thing that comes to my mind with any domestic vehicles (not just GM) is that the resale value of foreign vehicles are better than domestic.

silent_jay

me too

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