BooRadley

Yeah, it impressed the hell out of me too

pocon1

ashton said:

LOL! You Ricers talk a long line of shit for people that only see the color of Camaro tailights as we smoke your little cars off the road

That really cuts to the quick dosen't it? When a stock Camaro rips your "pumped up" ricer....... Racing rice is so boring I only tear them a new one when their girlfriend is in the car, then they taste the bitter truth of a warmed over LS1....

I just want to know, if Camaros are so great, why Is GM not making them anymore? My coworker had a 96 trans am with the ram air fron, and he got rid of his after 70,000 miles because he was worried that things would start breaking soon. He still talks about when he got smoked by a 300zx and he wonders what was in it that was so powerful.
I actually like a lot of cars, but Ashton, you talk a lot of stuff about v8's and you have no respect for anything else. So I am going to tweak you about it and call you out. Besides, its getting to the point where all of these cars are starting to blend together anyways. Pontiac is importing its new gto from Australia, GM owns some of Subaru and it is going to base its new saab on a subaru, Saturn is buying engines from honda, etc... Next I am going to get on the rotary vs. piston thread and say that the piston go's boing boing bong, and the rotary go's hmmm. HAHAHA!

Spyder_Venom

Actually it goes like this

Gen I SBC - what your talking about
Gen II SBC - LT1
Gen III SBC - LS1

That is how GM classifies them Its still a small block, and its still a chevy.

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bad30th

How is this even a valid argument? There have been numerous great cars over the years that went out of production, but because they arent being made anymore, they arent even worth mentioning? I dont understand....


So this must mean that all F-Bodies will always break because you friend was worried? And that all 300zx's are better than all F-Bodies because your friend got beat by one in his TA? Theres always someone faster..... (and that goes both ways)

....and Ashton's the one who doesnt respect anything else?

Okay.....

BooRadley

The 300Z was what, $38,000 new back in 96? That would translate to a $43,000 car now , and the last year camaros/fireturds were still <$30k in most cases. Lets hope they can beat a camaro, considering they have twin turbos, weigh 800 pounds less with a better weight distribution, and cost $10,000+ more when bought new. Nevermind the fact that a $500 nitrous kit on a Z28 camaro or WS6 Fireturd would blow a stock 300Z out of the water in a drag race.

AND BTW:

Nitrous is not 'cheating'. It is a legitimate performance mod for straightline racing. In fact, for most people , it is a prefered mod as it it is cheap and is not on all the time, and has little effect on long-term reliability if you use it only when you are draggin' it.

While it can bust up blocks pretty quickly, the right nitrous control systems will insure a long life for the block, and American v8s are generally alot beefier(read : heavy) and can take the abuse better than lightweight four cylinders. Fact of life : more metal equals more resistance to exploding.

pocon1

Actually booradley, a lot of the articles I read claim that for instance a stock nissan sentra bottom end can support up to 400 hundred hp, through nitrous, turbo, whatever. That's from 140 hp. For a 5.7 v8 to match the efficiency of a sentra 1.8, it would have to make about 440 hp. If you figure that the 5.7 has 3.2 times the displacement, it would have to put out approximately 1200 hp to match the strength of a nissan sentra engine. I have never heard of any v8 going to that level without new pistons, con rods, rings, crankshaft, valvetrain, arp studs, and numerous other items. in the end, you keep the block and buy all new pieces to mount on it.
Yes, you can argue all day about no replacement for displacement, but for sheer efficiency and strength of design, the sentra wins hands down.
as far as camaros and such, the new 350z costs less than $28,000 and matches the performance of the old 300z without twin turbos. 3.5 liter with 287 hp. try a $500 dollar nitrous kit on that.

BooRadley

You got a point there... but the 300Z was a very expensive car back in the day. Yes, it could beat a camaro. I am not arguing for "no replacement for displacement" but I am arguing there is no CHEAP replacement for displacement...

Well, the sentra bottom end can hold up to 400 HP, but how about the top end? Also, peak HP probably won't help too much in a short drag race, and the camaro already has 200 ilb-ft over the sentra to begin with. You are right, no V8 could stand being boosted to 1200 HP without major work ... but you don't NEED to go that far, all you'd need would be a short jaunt into 475 horsepower land ( easily and cheaply achievable ) to win a race... and I guarentee it would be much cheapier to build a 475 horsepower camaro engine ( through use of whatever) than it would be to build a 1.8 Sentra engine that could hold the stresses.

If you would like some numbers, think about it this way.

A sentra produces 140 hp stock. If you boosted it to 400 hp, that is 285% of stock power output. Now, engines are built to withstand much more force than they can output for reliabilites sake, but how long does a 400 hp build on a sentra engine last? Point out a reference somewhere that says you can get 200,000 miles on a turbo/NOS sentra engine with stock internals. Replacing a whole engine increases overall cost, more so than replacing just the internals of an engine.

Another way to illustrate it is forces per piston. Take a 400hp camaro and a 400 horsepower sentra. If you generalize it to say "each piston has 100 horsepower" ( which would be the case of the sentra) instead of "each piston has 50 horsepower", which do you think is going to break first? Heres a hint : Not the camaro. Both have the same amount of horsepower at the crank but the camaro has twice the amount of metal to deal with the horsepower without breaking. And in realitiy, it would be more than twice the amount of metal as the camaro has wider pistons so less force over a complete area. If the camaro had to endure the amount of force on each piston as the 400hp sentra did, then it would produce 800hp ( impossible without major mods by sheer force)

Now, you have a camaro. They come with ~300 hp stock. You build it up to 400 horsepower. That is 133% more horsepower than stock. That is well within the acceptable forces and reliability range. There are plenty of Chevy V8s out there that have been modified to produce more power and still have >200k miles on them without a rebuild. I'm from Kentucky, and this describes most farm trucks that family and friends has.

Of course, the sentra would still win if both cars had 400 horsepower.

pocon1

Just to set the record straight for people like booradley and bad30th, I am not actually against domestics and v8's. I actually like all performance cars, as long as they perform. I don't expect an integra to have the power of a mustang, and I don't expect a mustang to handle as well as an integra. but there is a type of writing called satire, which I do employ in my posts occasionally. It is usually directed against people who make snide comments and digs for no reason. People like ashton. Allow me to quote from his first post:


Besides, just about any Camaro, Trans Am or Mustang with a V8 can whip a modified import STOCK!

Rice-A-Roni The American V8's Favorite Treat!

No one else had made any claim about one type of car being better than another, until ashton came along. Ashton made this comment where no one else had been aggresively obnoxious, so I proceeded to cut him down. Apparently some people got confused about my satire. I regret any inconvenience this may have caused.
BTW, here is the definition of satire, from wordnet 2.0:

1. sarcasm, irony, satire, caustic remark -- (witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"; "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Johathan Swift)

Here is an example of satire, as previously posted by me.

Bad30th, of course you have worked on thousands of those cars. Just walk down the street, you'll see them scattered all over the place. Just use your nose and sniff for the oil leaks and burned up engines. Sometimes I spend all day driving around their decrepit bodies, dodging bits of rust that they have strewn across the roadway like autumn leaves. Junkyard parts abound, because thats what they are; junkyards.

Ashton

LOL

It always amuses me when a discussion involving domestic vs import cars turns into a flamewar such as a fundie vs atheist thread at Fark,


I picked three cars that fit every one of the posters specifications,
there isn't one import or very many domestics that fit all of these specifications......

-A common car that is relatively easy to find. ~ This ones easy enough....... plenty of choices.

-Easy to find parts. ~ I assume this means stock replacement parts, this one is easy except if cost is a factor. The 350 ~ 302 are hands down the best choice when it comes to the cost of parts, and aftermarket parts for Camaros, Trans Am's and Mustangs are widely available from many companies........

-Nets big gains for little money.~ Now here's where it gets sticky, "BIG gains for LITTLE money" sure you can make any car fast, but the little money part puts a damper on most choices...... the 350 and 302 are already powerful engines, so as a inexpensive starting point you can't make a better choice.

-Cheap to buy, easy to make look good AND fast.~ A decent Camaro, Trans Am or Mustang can be bought for around $5000, they already look good and are fast stock, a perfect base to start from.

-For the tuning impaired, has lots of shops to have someone else build up the car of your dreams. ~ This ones easy enough if you forget about the cost factor, I don't know of many shops that are willing to add mods to imports cheaply...... of course having a shop add mods to a Camaro, Trans Am or Mustang isn't going to be cheap either, but the type of mods you would have them install would be much easier and take less time which means lower cost.

-For the tuning gurus, easy to access parts, does not require unbolting everything to get at one thing. ~ Now this one is the killer of most choices, "easy to access parts" dosen't even come close to any import or quite a few domestics, while a Camaro, Trans Am or Mustang's parts can be accessed without much difficulty...... not to say everything is going to be easy, but for the most part there is plenty of room to work with.

-Reliable daily driven speed. ~ This one depends, any over modded car is going to have problems......


And as to this~


I said "just about any" which is by far the truth, anybody with money can build a import that can beat a stock Camaro...... but they are few and far between, and I'm sure there are a few really expensive imports that can beat a Camaro stock, the fact of the matter is that without dumping a bunch of money into a import or buying one that is ridiculously expensive you aren't going to beat a Camaro.


My statement my seem "aggresively obnoxious" to you pocon1 but it is far less obnoxious than your statement, I never said imports were pieces of shit which is what your opinion of Camaro's sounds like with this line......

You may call that satire but I call it "flamebait"

Pragma

Seriously guys, both Ashton and pocon1. This isn't a Fark thread, we're adults. Let's behave with some maturity.

Yes, there are stock domestics (ie: Mustangs, Camaros, Trans Ams) that will beat your average tuned import (ie: your neighbor's Civic). However, there are stock imports (ie: 3000GT VR-4) that will beat your average tuned domestic (your neighbor's Focus).

In the future, let's just offer our own constructive advice without trying to rip at other people's posts. After all, we're just trying to compile a comprehensive list of cars, not an exclusive list of what we can agree on are good cars to mod. If you think that domestic cars are worthless for modding, just don't mention them. Same goes for imports.

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tfin

If you want a "ARG" factor to a car, try changing spark plug on a camaro. ACK. I love displacement and so on and so forth, but give me my neon any day over the old camaro. I only had an old v-6 and that was a mild PITA. My friend had a 3rd and 4th gen and the plugs were just a bitch. You think gm would have tried a little harder to make them more accesable.

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bad30th

Pocon1: Let me tell you a little secret about satire and sarcasm on the internet......it is impossible for the reader of your posts to judge whether or not you are being sarcastic on the internet

Do everyone (including yourself) a favor and use or or or something to help us realize when you are joking and when you are not.

Now if you like all performance cars that perform, I can comletely respect that. But keep in mind that automotive stereotypes are usually just as unfounded as all other stereotypes. When you said, "I don't expect an integra to have the power of a mustang, and I don't expect a mustang to handle as well as an integra." There are many Integras out there that will out-power a lot of 'Stangs, and there are many 'Stangs out there that will hand an Integra its ass in the handling department.

One last thing...about your Sentra-strength-and-efficiency argument.... The numbers you are talking about are correct, so technically you are right, but.......so what.
Its still only making 140 HP. The efficiency argument is completely pointless unless the engine size can be scaled up.

For example....if I have a 0.5L (no not a 5.0) engine making 100 HP. Efficient as hell, right?

Now say I can magically scale that same engine up to, say, 3.0L. Now it is making 600 HP. This magical engine is amazing and impressive, but that little 0.5L engine still sucks ass because it is still only making 100 HP , and 100 HP just plain sucks

I dont know how clear my example is, but do you see my point? If a car is super-efficient, but is still under powered, whats the point? I guess when thats the only thing to brag about.......

I dunno....not trying to start/perpetuate a flame war or anything.

And apologies to the original poster for this entire thread-jack

mighty mouse

Best plugs I ever saw....1967 Camaro with a 396 and A/C. You had to pull the engine to change spark plugs. I don't think so.

BooRadley

holy shitballs. The wheel well wasn't removable ? :S

pocon1

This is my apology to mustang and camaro fans. Like I said, I am not against these cars, and I always have said that they make a crapload of power. But I came up with an idea to check out the stock vs modified imports vs domestic idea. The most recent issue of Grassroots motorsports came out and they listed all of the top cars and times for the solo 2 nationals. For each class, cars all can only be modified to the sames standards. For instance, stock allows new tires, new struts, front roll bar, and brake pads. Here are some examples of stock cars and their top times on the course.
super stock
02 corvette zo6 113.04
03 corvette zo6 113.048
b stock
01 honda s2000 113.921
00 honda s2000 113.493
c stock
99 mazda miata 107.798
99 mazda miata 109.441
d stock
03 bmw 330ci 118.062
01 acura integra type r 118.346
f stock
95 chevrolet z-28 109.497
89 chevrolet 350 iroc-z 109.863
g stock
01 toyota celica gt 112.963
85 honda crx si 113.828
Holy crap! the only cars the 8 and 15 year old pony cars did not beat were the mazda miatas. How does an old pony car beat a new corvette zo6 with the same potential level of preparation?
Moving to the prepared classes. Again, same potential level of preparation for each car.
b prepared
87 mazda rx7 turbo 106.38
87 mazda rx7 turbo 110.024
c prepared
88 ford mustang 102.66
93 ford mustang 102.766
e prepared
86 honda civic 101.847
85 honda civic 102.79
even in the modified classes, the cars were competitive with other models out there.
So again, mea culpa. These numbers show that the domestic v8 can match on a course that requires acceleration, handling, and braking.

tfin

We really need to be a little more specific. i have friends that race SCCA and such. So have learned a lot about scca through that. One thing being is that there are 3 major cars that dominate the scca, 80's stang, miata, and the neon. I am not saying that other cars do not kick ass but those are the big 3. Now the thing with scca is that it is small curvy courses where high hp is a killer. You can break your tires loose in a second and seconds count. The fastest cars in scca are those little open wheel race cars. Most of them have motorcycle engines in them. In scca hp is not the key, good ovarall car tuning is. Now if we step to drag racing, well not massive hp is key. What about gt road racing. Well not we need good amounts of hp, great road holding and the ability to run for an hour or 2 at those levels.

So to really do this topic good we need to say, "What are the top 10 cars for, off road, what are the top for drag, top for scca, top for street racers, ease of moding, budget modding....." An the list could go one for a long time.

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tfin

Now if you really want to see a car that has hard to change spark plugs check this. 1979 ford ltd:

1st, unbolt body and seperate.

2nd, pull the fame and engine out from car.

3rd, marvel at the seperated car.

Lastl you now have complete access to the engine and you can change your plugs.


You should see how you change the oil.

Ok, just kidding. I did all of that for the lo lo project. but I had to throw that in for the spak plug thing. Oh yeah that that car, 79 ltd, basic 5.0 just like every stang on the road. You can get parts for the engine ANYWHERE. You need parts for the rest of the car, freaking for get it!

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bad30th

Pocon1: Congratulations on completely changing my perceptions of you I am not saying that domestic V8s are the be-all and end-all of power or handling, but they do definitely hold their own Thank you for actually informing yourself (and others) instead of just lashing out like so many are so inclined to do

Kudos to you

PS: I have been doing a lot of SCCA autocrossing lately and (in my area anyway) the 80's Stangs and the Neons dont exactly dominate..... I see more Miatas, WRXs, Integras, and (believe it or not) F-Bodies running the fast times, but, meh...its all fun

pocon1

I autocross in the D.C. region and there just are not that many domestics. I mostly see BMW's corvettes, Miatas. Integras, tons of Mini Coopers, Volkswagens, and other smaller cars. There are a few muscle cars, but not that many to compare to. When I think domestic autocrosser, I see Ford Focus, which is a decent little car. so seeing the times from the nationals laid out was quite a shock, because I am only used to the D.C. region.

krwlz

And as long as the poor Camaro doesnt have to turn sharp, you stay in the lead, when they do... well, watch out for telephone poles .

Just kidding man, I like camaros and whatnot, My dads got the 67 rs/ss restoration on the way. But a riced out eclipse, or wrx, or even a Civic done right is gunna handle the sharp corners so much better.

BigTruck1956

ok back to the original question......

I like the pre-1985 small blocks, as they have the cheapest parts (price, not quality) and the most abundance of parts. I cream my pants every time i get my JEGS or Summit catalogue because there are sooo many parts for my engine in there. ( I run a 350 in my truck). Not to say that imports are bad if you are into that sort of thing as you can get good performance while still maintian some shred of fuel economy. However with people driving trucks with built engines such as mine down the highway, I would rather go fast in 3800 pounds of steel than 2500 pounds of plastic....i just feel safer

it also depends on what kind of performance you want. If you want something that handle well and is quick, a Nova with a 400 hp 383 smallblock probably isnt your best option. However if you just want something to embarras that one douchebag in front of his hot girlfriend at the stoplight in a haze of tiresmoke, (which is what i enjoy doing) get yourself a big old car with an even bigger engine and you will be laying rubber in the cheapest way possible

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bad30th

Did you even read the thread??? We have already addressed exactly this kind of idiotic stereotype.

telekinetic

Mmmm...six month bump....uninformed but trendy cliche bashing knows not the boundaries of time and space.

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twisted no more

silent_jay

What the hell was this thread about? the whole 2nd page had nothing to do with the topic, ah well does my 2.5RS fit into any of these catagories? That is all.

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krwlz

I did read the thread, it was intended for semi humor, and the stats already stated support what I wrote so....

telekinetic

I would respond, but I can only read english.

__________________
twisted no more

krwlz

Dude.... why? The original post was from when I was refered here to get some info. I check it out, post something I intended mostly for humor since everyone else was flaming and I get ripped. In the end most of the people here who brag about their V8's, or ricers... Have only driven the cars they brag about, and probably dont have enough expirience in both kinds of cars to really offer an objective opinion.


Cmon man, grow the fuck up.

telekinetic

Alright. I'm going to try really hard not to flame you. However, if you don't want to start shit, don't tell me to 'grow the fuck up'...

I have autocrossed a modified-class turbo 240sx, a street-prepared NA Mr2, and a street prepared LT1 Camaro, and the LT1 Camaro kicked the liviing shit out of both of the other cars...no comparison. The MR2 is mine, and I could effortlessly turn in better times in the Camaro that I very rarely drive, on relatively low speed courses that are mostly sharp turns.

Also, now that you edited the R out of your post, you changed it from being grammatically wrong to being factually wrong.

Observe the Stats for stock cars, sorted by lap time:

So, seeing as lower times = better, the Integra Type R, the Peak of Honda Performance, got spanked by both a 95 Z28, AND an 89 Iroc

What interpretation of these stats led you to believe that they supported your statements that camaros win as long as they don't turn?








Alright, that said, there are an Integra, a Camaro, and a worked Firebird at our local autocross that are unbelivably fast cars with good drivers, and the integra usually comes out on top.

And once, just for fun, one of the instructers beat most of the "sports cars" in the field in his bone-stock civic daily driver.

bad30th

Ya that was quite the humbling experience to get spanked by a stock Civic. Driver is E V E R Y T H I N G .

krwlz

Dude, Ill readily admit Im not a "driver" and that in reality, I know a little less then most about cars, the grow the fuck up was purely for the manar in which you said the shit dude. Chill

Moving to the prepared classes. Again, same potential level of preparation for each car.
b prepared
87 mazda rx7 turbo 106.38
87 mazda rx7 turbo 110.024
c prepared
88 ford mustang 102.66
93 ford mustang 102.766
e prepared
86 honda civic 101.847
85 honda civic 102.79

These were the times I was looking at really. Hey look, honda civic... less then a ford mustang, go figure. I wouldnt expect a 4 banger to take out the V8 stock.

Just take the edge off the temper man, a fucking typos nothing to throw insults about. Thats all I ask. You dant want to feel insulted, and I dont want to feel insulted, cant we all just get along?

krwlz

repost

silent_jay

will this battle ever end, I know what side I'm on, I'd put my Subie up against a good ole V8 for shits and giggles any day.

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bad30th

its not about sides guys....thats the point.

pocon1

Cars rule, dude! Bicycles suck ass!

Walking sucks, too! The only thing my foot does is push on the gas, and kick some ass!

bad30th

Aaaand....signature

So awesome! hehe

EricPDX

search far and long for a GVR4 mits galant vr4, made for two years 90-91, 4wd turbo supa sleeper.........i get a ride in a modded one now and then ....very very fast and no one sees it comin.......

Captain Canada

1999-2001 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS

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silent_jay

Integra Type R the peak of Honda Performance? Are we forgetting the NSX, the S2000, ya the Integra is a great car but isn't the peak of Honda Performance so those numbers are useless IMO

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jakayoh

I think about skylines i heard rb25s will bolt into my r31 upping the hp from 185 to 250 not including any mods ie. exhaust air intake injectors. Also dodges are not too hard to modify like the daytona turbo any turbo for that matter just intercool them and get someone to turn the boost up to 15 and you have instant 200 plus hp especially if you have a 2200 pound omni or charger turbo. Honda with the b16 stock from the factory is a good place of origin lightweight again plus vtec juice. Corolla gts twin cam mtr in a corolla ae86 and itbs. Ford Taurus SHO perfect sleeper 24 valve dohc.

MSD

This thread is old enough that a new one might be appropriate given the dynamic nature of the subject.