Mephisto2

I travel to the US quite a bit and always have a nice car waiting for me at San Fran airport.

Two things I've noticed about American cars.

1) The suspension is always AWFUL!!

What is it that Americans like about horrible soft bouncy suspension?! It's like being in a boat, not a car! You can actually lean on a car with ONE hand and feel the whole thing tip to one side.

Absolutely no "connection" with the road... Makes driving an unpleasant experience... almost.

2) Power
I nearly fell off my chair when I found out that the car I had been driving, last trip, was not the measly 4 cylinder, 2 litre "commuter car" I had thought, but was in fact a 3 litre V6. Some kind of Pontiac. But the thing ran like an iron pig! No acceleration. No response. No power... Horrible, horrible, horrible.



The funny thing is, I know Americans can make good performance vehicles (though to be honest, I think your styling leaves a lot to be desired). It's just that your general "everyday motoring vehicles" don't seem to be engineered well.

Mr Mephisto

Pragma

Recently (within the past 10 years), most American companies have completely tossed out the sports car ideals and made nothing but slow family cars (look at the recent Mustangs, they're a dime a dozen and used as sedans by most people! Mustangs!)

It's a shame, really, as the old Trans-Ams and Mustangs were really powerful cars.

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Godfrey

Mr. Mephisto,
For some reason American auto companies can't get the concept that people like a vehicle with some power. They leave it up to their marketing departments to convince all their mindless, brain dead, potential customers that 200 horsepower is a lot. They think that a flashy TV commercial can convince us that the Monte Carlo SS or Cadillac CTS powered by that 200 horsepower engine is really going to impress us. Maybe someday they will realize we're not brain dead and all we have to do is put the "pedal to the metal" to figure out their engines are boat anchors for the most part. As far as the suspensions I think they get complaints of a rough ride whenever they put a good suspension under an average car. I believe most American customers perceive being removed from the driving experience as a sign of luxury.......hence the mushy suspensions.

Mephisto2

Godfrey,

Excellent response.

You've kinda summed it up perfectly!

I suppose I knew the answer, but wanted to rant a bit!

Mr Mephisto

MSD

IF you drive around town with me, and to school with me in a car with a tight suspension, and you'll be begging for the soft American suspension. As for the power, it's there, but cars just get heavier and heavier as the dealers strngthen the while the American ass gets wider and wider. My car weighs 3600 pounds and puts out 165HP/185lb-ft, and it suits me for everyday driving. I would love to have more power and a faster car, but I just don't need it.

lakefire

i agree w/ this comment. I would also like to point out that America is a HUGE country and people use the interstates for travelling everywhere. So when people go on 9 hour trips (which happens a lot for Americans) you don't really want to feel every bump in the road. also, i don't know how old the pontiac you were driving was. But i have a 92 bonneville w/ about 170 hp and it's got plenty of get and go for me....Racing just isn't one of my concerns (especially when there is a speed limit).

BTW, the '04 CTS is going to have 260 HP, and the '03 CTS has 220....

billege

A Monte Carlo SS is a fucking 2 door lumina. Anyone who disagrees is a marketing dept. tool.

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Mephisto2

Erm, no I won't.

Soft American suspension sucks.

That's my whole point.


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

Well, Australia is also a huge country. And the cars built here have decent engines, decent power and good suspension.

Last weekend I drove about 400km over just 2 days, along winding Australian roads. And the suspension in my car at least kept me in touch with the road.

It's obviously just a matter of taste.

The American market must want horrible mushy spongey suspension.


It was new-ish. Less than 5,000 miles on the clock. And trust me, it was crap.

The car I drive is a 330HP, 4 litre Ford with an inter-cooler Turbo-charger, so I guess I'm used to a better ride.

And I don't race around. But when you take off from the lights and you can feel the car being sluggish, then there is obviously a problem.

Well, driving a brand-new Ford XR6 Turbo, this doesn't impress me.



Mr Mephisto

irseg

The sad thing is, every now and then American car companies try to make cars with a stiffer suspension and good handling, and they get shot down by idiot customers.

I used to have a '93 Mercury Cougar. It looked like an old-fart car, but it was on Ford's most advanced platform at the time and had a pretty high-tech suspension. It had a very stiff ride and the handling was superb for a 3600 lb car. It felt totally neutral in turns and had almost no body roll.

I had a 2003 Dodge Neon as a rental, the ride was very soft and I about plowed off the damn road when I'd throw it into corners. I got so fed up with it that I traded to a Chevy Malibu, and it was even worse. On one particular curve with a 25 mph limit, at *30 mph* all 4 tires were screaming bloody murder and the car felt like it was about to flip. The old Cougar took it at 45 without complaint.

Ford really needs to ditch all its American cars and import its Australian lineup. Those are what American cars were and should be.

grumpyolddude

American marketing is toward the least common denominator. The majority of American drivers are barely in control, merely pointing the car and timidly massaging the accellerator, then mashing on the brakes.
To address this market, throttle responses are dampened, suspensions detuned and the brakes better not make ANY noise or create ANY dust.
In the US, if your 105 year old grandmother can't handle it, they won't market it.

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Pragma

grumpyolddude hit it right on the head. American drivers are horrible, barely capable of holding the car on the road while going down a straight road, let alone anything more "complicated" than that. Combine that lack of skill with a powerful car, and you've got one hell of a recipe for disaster.

So most companies produce horribly underpowered cars, in the hope of preventing people from getting injured.

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reconmike

Really?

Have you ever driven in NJ,NY, or any of the major metro areas?

Cruising at 80+mph with less than 2 car lengths in a pack,

I think it is the morons in their little rice racers is where the problem lies. They think they have a F1 with alot of ass behind them, in reality the are driving an econ-box that with a slight breeze it is all over the road.

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mortius

LOL, you are kidding right? The V8 mustang GT's are hitting 0 - 60 in no time at all, the mustang cobra's are down around 4.4 seconds or so. The new one coming out in 2005 is going to be just under 500bhp. The new mustangs blow away the old ones, have done for quite a while now

What about the viper, vett, etc???

I do agree you see V6 mustangs all over the place but a V6 in the USA isn't for the most part near as fast as a V6 in europe. Different tuning ideals I guess.

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Pragma

The 2005 Mustangs are flat out awesome, no denying that. I was referring more to the v6 mustangs that you see everywhere, or at least where I live.

Vipers are way out of my price range, you pretty much never seen them. Even vettes are pretty rare to see, though Cameros and Firebirds are around from time to time. It just seems that there's a lot of scaled-down versions of the sports cars, rather than the full-powered ones.

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badflsh

There is your problem (well, not really a problem but you know what I mean). once you get used to driving something with a turbo that's running a fair amount of boost, most stock cars will seem sluggish from the line.

Believe me, if ford would sell your car here in the states I know a ton of people who would be buying them. For some reason they think we all want big family cars powered by econobox motors.

mortius

I live in houston tx and I must agree that a lot of the people in the US can't drive worth a damn. The driving test here is a joke, if you fail it you really have some issues, try taking a test in europe and see how much harder it is then here.

They drive crazy in Houston, it will start to pour with rain and what do most people do, yep you guessed it, speed up. It also doesn't rain that often here so a lot of people are not used to it, the roads get all greasy and no one is leaving much of a gap between the cars.

There is also a serious issue with lane control, people driving so damn slow in what should be the fast lane, running red lights is also very common. When I first got here I put on the brakes to stop as the light was going to have been pretty well red when I went through it and my friends in the car all told me next time to run it because the odds on the person behind me will think I will and he/she will prob blow through it also and perhaps hit the back of my car.

Anyway just a quick rant, I'm not saying everyone in the US is a bad driver but there are a lot of people out there that just shuldn't have a license.

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Pragma

I agree completely, mortius, most people here in the US are horrible drivers. Not only do they speed, drive recklessly, and similar insane stunts, but they have no idea what the established road rules are (right of way, etc.). As such, you've got a population of morons, driving around recklessly, in cars that they want to believe are powerful.

No surprise that we have so many accidents.

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guy2003

The problem is that american car companies now have the reputation of making cars for the average soccer mom. People who care little about performance they want a smooth comfortable ride. If you want something better you get a europien car. So the american comanies just go with it.

boober

I gave up on American cars. Was Pontiac fan, but switched to Acura. Now I have an 2003 Acura RSX. That car handles better than any American car I've driven (for equivalent cost). And even tho it's only 160HP, the car is only about 2700 pounds. It really can jump if I want it to. Great car.

Mephisto2

I drive a 330HP, 4 litre Ford with intercooler Turbo-charger...

Yes, I know what you mean.

But I don't expect that kind of performance from an average car.

What I DO expect is SOME performance from a 3litre V6.

Let me put it another way.

The average car (at least the ones I have driven over 3 years) in America have:

- Big engines that are underpowered
- horrible mushy spongey suspension

A two-litre engine can give plenty of poke. Just try sitting behind the wheel of the new Mini Cooper S (and that's only a souped up 1.6litre).

I'm not suggesting (or even asking) that American companies begin producing cars that meet the higher standards of Europe or Australia.

I'm just making an observation...



Yeah, I think people would buy it. Especially when you consider the price. It cost me just under Aus$60,000. So, thats around US$40,000. Great value for such a good car.

Mr Mephisto

zfleebin

What I am trying to understand is are you driving rentals Mr. Mephisto? I will agree with you that rentals suck but I am a fan of a good amount of american vehicles. My cousin drives a 03 cobra svt his brother a 03 lightning, and I pull around my 6,000lb ram with a 345hp hemi. You are not gonna see those as rentals but they will all teach a mini cooper(can you fit in one of those?) a serious lesson any day of the week.

splck

I won't comment on the mushy ride of american cars and the lack of power( I agree with Mr Mephisto), but I will comment on drivers down there. It drives me nuts that people don't keep right except to pass and/or slower traffic keep right. Is this not taught in drivers ed? On a four-lane expressway drivers are passing on the right all the time...idiots Ad weaving in and out of traffic too...this sure sounds like good drivers to me

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DEI37

Or, just smarter than the average bear. The Monte is a 2-door Impala. There is no Lumina.
I'm a die-hard GM nut. They build a good car, make reliable powertrains, are fuel efficient for their respective classes, and offer decent performance for the dollar. I won't buy much in the way of Japanese cars, except the Nissan Maxima, and maybe the Altima. For the most part, they aren't as fuel efficient, nor have as much "pep." I agree that general build quality is a little better, but anymore, the gap between American and Japanese automakers has greatly diminished. Both countries have yet to catch the Germans.

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Mephisto2

Or the Australians...



Mr Mephisto

PS - for the record, I'm not Australian. I just live here...

WarWagon

Just what American cars have you been driving? To say "American" cars are like that is such a gross generalization, it's about as accurate as comparing a Honda Pilot to an NSX.

Mephisto2

Of course it's a generalization.

One that most posters here agree with.

OK... "American cars are great. They have lovely suspension and fantastic power to weight ratios..."

Happy now?

LOL

Mr Mephisto

WarWagon

I just asked which cars you drove in, thats all, no reason to get offended. If somebody spends most of their time in a taurus or a lincoln, then they're going to get the impression that thats what the typical American suspension is like.

Aside from the typical 4 door sedans, I can't think of any performance oriented American car that felt as though it had a truly horrendous suspension. Unless you can give a type of make/model for comparison, its apples to oranges.

Mephisto2

I wasn't offended at all.

You hit the nail on the head there.

I wasn't talking about performance cars. I was talking about "typical 4 door sedans".

That's my whole point.

The difference between average American cars and those from Europe and Australia is that American cars tend to have much softer suspension and much weaker engines. Or at least, much less responsive engines, even taking into consideration their generally larger size (ie, usually 3+ litre at least).

Let's put it another way. What cars in Europe or Australia have you driven?

I'm not fighting here. I'm just discussing...

Mr Mephisto

PS - I'll note the make & model of my next rental in two weeks when I'm back in San Fran. Ones that I can remember include Chevrolet Malibu (horrible), Dodge Intrepid (horrible), Pontiac GrandAm (horrible) and some other Pontiac I can't remember, which was just "bad"...

otter

We would pass on the left, except for the fact that the slow fuckers in our way don't realize that they need to stay to the right. Unfortunately, only a few states actually have laws that require vehicles to stay on the right except to pass.

As for the whole conversation over underpowered engines, you must first understand that the car companies do this to save money. The American gov't is pushing for more economic and "safe" cars... the better gas milage the cars get, and the safer they are, the bigger the tax break for the company.

On the opposite hand, if a manufacturer makes a car with low gas milage, they charge a big add-on tax (which ends up being passed on to the consumer.) Ever look closely at the window sticker on a Viper? Fucking huge tax because it gets bad gas milage.

Moonduck

Mr. Mephisto is some sort of evil, sadistic troll that started this thread as an excuse to remind us Americans how bloody nice the Aussie cars are. =P

Trust me, Meph, if we had the choice, we'd be buying better cars. Or at least those of us that like performance. There is a bit of a disconnect though. You said that your car was around $40kUS, right? How much do you think that rental was worth? I can probably think of a few $40kUS American cars that are pretty darned nice performers.

Still, I do wish we'd get some of the Aussie designs over here. Nice stuff!

stingc

Most Americans think cars are only a method to get from one place to another. Most don't care about driving being fun in any way. There is also a lot of political pressure to make cars that are "safe" (ie don't promote fast driving). Hence the soft suspensions, low power, and auto transmissions. If you're in america and want something else, you buy a foreign car.

Mephisto2

Heh heh

That's a very good point.

But I also said that I wasn't comparing my turbo-charged 330HP Ford to average cars.

Even "average" cars in Europe and Australia have more poke than the usual American cars...



And much nicer suspension.

It's only an opinion, after all!

Mr Mephisto

FastShark85

American manufacturers could make the suspensions a little stiffer if they could only learn how to make a seat that's comfortable for more than an hour!

Moonduck

Actually, Ford brought over one their Euro platforms (the Contour), complete with stiffer suspension and a bit more power than the platform it replaced (Tempo, blech). I drove one for a few years and was happy with it. Unfortunately, it hasn't really met with all that much sales success. Apparently handling isn't as important here, and the American idea of comfort (soft seats, booo, give me good supportive seats as they're more comfortable on long drives by far) is set in stone.

Mephisto2

Actually, that's another good point Moonduck... SEATS!

In most American cars I've driven, they're dirty big soft sofa-chair like, with poor lumbar support.

Mr Mephisto

mystic511

Mr. Mephisto,

Of course, being in Australia, you are spoiled with incredibly wonderful cars that never, ever get to american shores.

Just some cars off the top of my head:

-Mitsubishi FTO
-Ford Escort Cosworth (and the newer Focus RS's)
-Nissan Skylines

So when you get to america, of course every car seems crappy!

Well, there are a few domestics that are worth mentioning:

Ford Focus SVT, which has the best handling in it's class (car and driver 3 years running). Not much on the power side, though some Ford dealers are offering a supercharger package that is covered under warranty.

Pontiac Grand Prix GTP's have 320 horsepower(i think) and can run the quarter mile in the 14's.

Dodge Neon SRT-4 has a somewhat stiff suspension and can outrun a WRX in the quartermile by two-tenths.

Ford SVT Cobras are quick, but mustangs aren't really known for great turning.

Camaros (though they aren't made anymore) were great cars that had good suspension and low end corvette engines (LS1 block).

But yea, at a rental car place you're definately not going to find any of those cars for the average joe. Most american drivers like fluffy soft cars.

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Mephisto2

I thought the Neon was a piece of shit?!

Mr Mephisto

DEI37

It's actually 260 now, for MY2004. But the motor can easily withstand 300+hp...the older 240hp versions anyways. These engines consistently win awards for efficiency, power, and reliability. Worldwide, not just nationally. These supercharged, pushrod, 2 valve per cylinder engines can squeeze 32miles from a gallon of gas. The 405hp V8 in the Corvette can come close at 30-31mpg, on the highway.

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smithja0423

Yeah - the Neon *is* an econobox piece of shit. The SRT-4 package adds an extremely tight suspension and a turbocharged, intercooled 215 horsepower engine. 0-60 in less than 6 and a top speed of nearly 150 mph.

Lets just say the SRT-4 is in a class way above a stock neon.