American Car? WTF does that mean? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 07-10-2003, 11:08 AM

As the industrialization goes global the markets are getting more an more diluted as to how and where something is manufactured. While it's been that way for decades in Europe only recently has it started happenin in North America.

In one thread somoene vehemently stated that Saturn couldn't have a Honda engine in it, but it unfolds that maybe it will be happening more and more as parts become standard, common, and ubiquitous to manufacture.

In my opinion if it creates jobs without taking too much away from the economies and cultures, and I as a consumer get a quality product for a reasonable price, more power to them. Corporations are always going to try to find the cheapest place to manufacture and seek the highest profit margins.

It's very shocking to find out that one cannot just go by MADE IN THE USA anymore.

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Defining an American Car

by Ann Job

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Cross-ownership of automakers, widely dispersed sourcing of parts and global vehicle design and development make it difficult for consumers to know truly how "American" their vehicles are.
The 2004 Saturn VUE—the first General Motors Corp. vehicle to be offered with a Honda-built engine—is more "American" than the 2003 VUE that doesn't have the Honda engine. What? How can this be?

The proof is there in the federal government-mandated content labels affixed to the VUEs' windows.

Keith Chartrau, launch planner for VUE, said the so-called domestic content label on 2004 VUEs with Honda's 3.5-liter V6 will show "an increase" in domestic content, because the Honda-supplied engine is built in Ohio. Final, exact percentages on the 2004 VUE's content were still being worked up, he added.

Previous six-cylinder VUEs had an engine that came from and was built by GM of Europe, which did not count as domestic content because the engines were manufactured overseas and shipped to the VUE's assembly plant in Tennessee. Note, though, that Saturn's parent company—GM—is headquartered in Detroit, and Saturn was designed at GM's studios in the Detroit area.

Welcome to the weird world of automotive lineage. Tracking the content of vehicles today is a mind-numbing experience, even for folks in the auto industry.

With each car having as many as 20,000 parts, it's easy to see why automakers maintain staffs just to certify and analyze the content of each model and provide information for government-mandated labels.

Still, the required labels found on new cars and trucks that are meant to detail "domestic content" don't provide a full picture.

How We Got Here
The domestic content labels were mandated after the U.S. Congress, at the urging of the United Auto Workers union and Detroit's Big Three, passed the American Automobile Labeling Act (AALA) of 1992.

It required automakers to formulate and post on every new model the origin of the vehicle's parts and the vehicle's assembly site.

The AALA took effect with vehicles manufactured after Oct. 1, 1994.

But auto industry trends have sort of swamped the intent of the law. For one thing, the auto industry has been consolidating, with larger automakers buying into or buying altogether other car companies.

For example, Chrysler vehicles today are products of Germany-based DaimlerChrysler, and Ford Motor Co.'s portfolio of vehicles includes English-built Jaguars and Land Rovers as well as Swedish-built Volvos.

Also, foreign-based carmakers such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have opened factories in the United States and build both vehicles and parts—such as engines—on U.S. soil.

Add in the nonstop pressure on automakers to source parts globally as inexpensively and as efficiently as possible, and you can begin to see the complications inherent in any domestic content labeling.

In addition, the domestic content requirement, as it now stands, mixes U.S. and Canadian parts into a single percentage, so there's no real way to know the U.S.-only content.

And even this percentage doesn't take into account where the vehicle is ultimately assembled. This information is available on another line in the domestic content label.

Examples Easy to Find
So you think that Volkswagen's New Beetle is a fun reincarnation of the old Beetles of the '60s and '70s?

The styling may be derived from the old cars, but production is strictly modern.

While the original Beetles for U.S. customers came from Germany, every one of the New Beetles for U.S. customers today is built in Mexico. And the New Beetle's 5-speed manual transmission comes from Argentina.

Volkswagen of America spokesman Tony Fouladpour said he has heard anecdotally of some New Beetle buyers being concerned about the car's assembly in Mexico.

"I think dealers are good at dealing with it, telling people we have been producing these vehicles in Mexico (for the Mexican market) since the 1960s," he said. "And the quality there is comparable to what we have in our plants in Germany."

Also built in Mexico is Chrysler's PT Cruiser, whose looks harken back to the American gangster cars of the 1920s and '30s.

In fact, the Toyota Avalon has more domestic content than a PT Cruiser—70 percent vs. the PT Cruiser's 61 percent. The Avalon is built at a factory in Kentucky.

Not Part of Most Buying Decisions
Auto analysts say most car shoppers don't use content information to decide which model to buy.

"Consumer research indicates that for a lot of people [the Buy American issue] really doesn't come up," said George Peterson, president of the automotive research firm, AutoPacific Inc. of Tustin, Calif. "They buy what they want to buy."

Peterson noted it's especially true of younger buyers who don't have the same strong feelings about buying American as do older buyers.

"They're more open," he said, adding that many young people are employed in services, rather than in manufacturing. "As a result, they're not tied to the union jobs of old and don't have the same sensitivities as did earlier generations," Peterson said.

Dan Bonawitz, vice president of corporate planning and logistics at American Honda, also has seen little evidence that the labels impact sales. "Our experience is people don't even pay attention to it," he said.

In fact, an evaluation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in calendar 2001 found just 5 percent of the 645 people surveyed about the domestic content labels said they were influenced by the label to any degree whatsoever.

Even among consumers who described themselves as Buy American advocates, just 20 percent said they knew of the so-called content labels and only 9 percent had read one at a dealership, according to NHTSA.

No Push to Remove Labels
Still, no one seems hell-bent on getting rid of the labels. "That's not even on our radar screens, it's not on our lobbying agenda," said Ellen Dickson, who's the policy public affairs person at Ford Motor Co.

Heidi Blumenthal, director of the legislative affairs for the American International Automobile Dealers Association which represents 5,000 dealers, said while gathering the content information can be costly, it's not a front-burner issue in the auto industry right now.

She said consumers don't care about content anymore because they have seen in recent years how the auto industry has become global.

People are buying international cars now, Blumenthal said, adding "they want to buy the best."

3x0 · 07-10-2003, 01:00 PM

in europe american car means low quality (except these super expensive things).

according directly to thread -
it's not only parts that are exchanged by cheaper products which are said to be about same quality... it's natural that companies produce their goods where it is cheaper. Many many many [b]original[b] things distributed by very known companies on which you can read : "made in usa/germany/spain/any other eu country" are really made in taiwan or china.

bodypainter · 07-10-2003, 01:49 PM

True fact - I have a Honda built in Ohio, a Ford built in Mexico, and a Dodge built in Japan.

I care more about who got paid wages to build it. That being the case, my Honda is more American. Of course the Ford and the Dodge made money for the companies shareholders and that's good, too.

sixate · 07-10-2003, 02:58 PM

Heh, I laugh at people who tell me to buy American. I always say that I did. My Civic was also built in Ohio. Then I ask where was your car made? Most times people don't even know. I think it's funny. Just because it's a Ford, GM, or Chrysler product that doesn't mean that it was built in the US with parts made in America.

Nyenrodian · 07-10-2003, 03:03 PM

Cars built in America suck usually. The difference between the Merc ML (USA) and the E class (Germany) in terms of build quality, interior materials etc is just unbelievable.

The ML is inferior even to the A class MB in terms of build quality.

Then about the domestic content in a product. That's old news. If you buy a Swiss Watch about 25 to 30% of the contents come from Asia usually. Cars are far more international. ZF transmissions. Bosch engine management, Ford Engine and a Jaguar X type label.

lakefire · 07-12-2003, 09:34 PM

I will have to admit I am a GM fan, and will always be. I think they create superior cars for my needs better than any other company.

When you think about buying american, it's not about where it was built, and what the parts are. It's about how it was engineered and designed and the buyer in mind. Ever think about why Japanese companys just cannot make a full-size truck. They don't understand the concept of full-size. I visited Japan and to find a car bigger than a Camary was a rarity, find a truck.....good luck.

Buy American (cars designed for the american population in mind) ie:

BIG, lots of power, good value, and good looks.

Nyenrodian · 07-13-2003, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lakefire
I will have to admit I am a GM fan, and will always be. I think they create superior cars for my needs better than any other company.

When you think about buying american, it's not about where it was built, and what the parts are. It's about how it was engineered and designed and the buyer in mind. Ever think about why Japanese companys just cannot make a full-size truck. They don't understand the concept of full-size. I visited Japan and to find a car bigger than a Camary was a rarity, find a truck.....good luck.

Buy American (cars designed for the american population in mind) ie:

BIG, lots of power, good value, and good looks.

They very much understand the concept of fullsize. However for the Japanese it is not practical. That is because in Japan they don't have the space for big gas guzzling cars. It is too densely populated.

In my country (the Netherlands) the price for petrol is about €4,5 per gallon. Which is between $4,2/$4,7 depending on exchange rates. So driving a car can quickly be expensive. Especially if you drive a Lincoln Navigator or another American SUV that does 1 litre for every 2 km's.

neddy65 · 07-13-2003, 11:09 AM

I work in the automotive industry, and have, in various capacities, for years. I would love to see a lot of cross breeding to weed out the crap and keep the good. Every manufacturer has great highs and super lows from a maintenace point of view and combining the good stuff and losing the bad stuff would make life, and cars so much better.

phredgreen · 07-13-2003, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bodypainter
I care more about who got paid wages to build it. That being the case, my Honda is more American. Of course the Ford and the Dodge made money for the companies shareholders and that's good, too.

for all intents and purposes, i'm gonna hafta say <b>fuck the shareholders</b>, i'm more concerned about the blue collar shmucks who are out of a gig cuz big car companies only hafta pay mexican workers 5 bucks a day to build the same equipment. i appreciate the fact that foreign car companies ar ebringing their manufacturing to the united states... i realze that in the beginning it was simply a move to bring cred to their names, but it's turned into jobs for americans, and that's more important than anything else in my eyes. even more important than the bottom dollar.

Nyenrodian · 07-13-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phredgreen
i realze that in the beginning it was simply a move to bring cred to their names,

Are you serious? The BMWs and MBs made in America are not referred very favourably to

BMW and MB moved their production to the USA because it was relatively low labour cost overthere (much lower than in Germany) and very close to the main market. And also the USA customers don't care as much about the quality as the European customers do.

And if you knew the effects of the quota imposed on the Japanese car manufacturers in the early/mid 1980s you would choose to have those blue collar workers fired because it was terrible for the economy. I don't have the report here, but i'll ask tuesday at school for the effects. But in short it turned out that that an average blue collar worker costs $200.000,- per year to the state/public because of the quota. If he would have been fired it would have been in the order of $20.000,-

preluder · 10-02-2003, 06:17 PM

to me, American Car usually means a plasticky interior. it seems as though a lot of american car companies don't put that much effort into their passenger cars and put all their focus on high margin SUVs.

merkerguitars · 10-02-2003, 08:23 PM

Yeah it's funny how it works out....I guess how the story goes is pretty much how it all started is that Honda was starting a plant in Ohio to build engines for Fords but Henry Ford II said we will never put a jap engine in an American car (hehehe MAZDA) but then when imports started to take over they wanted to put high import taxes to weed out the competition. So Honda just took their new plant and started to make cars to bypass the tax.....i heard this from a friend so i don't know how true it is...

madsenj37 · 10-03-2003, 12:19 AM

When i think American i think boat sized cars and shitty gas mileage. I also think about how they tend to lose value faster than other cars.

Kurant · 10-03-2003, 05:26 AM

There is a Honda engine in the Saturn VUE, the AWD loaded version has a honda V6 in it.

Amercian cars are the prime exampe of make it, "as cheap as you can" and sell it for the most possible. That's the Amercian way. If you want something nice, solid, reliable and you'll get more then 65,000 miles from, you pay dollas for it.

07-10-2003, 01:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
3x0 Insane	in europe american car means low quality (except these super expensive things). according directly to thread - it's not only parts that are exchanged by cheaper products which are said to be about same quality... it's natural that companies produce their goods where it is cheaper. Many many many [b]original[b] things distributed by very known companies on which you can read : "made in usa/germany/spain/any other eu country" are really made in taiwan or china. Last edited by 3x0; 07-10-2003 at 01:05 PM..

07-12-2003, 09:34 PM	#6 (permalink)
lakefire Tilted Location: souf carolina	I will have to admit I am a GM fan, and will always be. I think they create superior cars for my needs better than any other company. When you think about buying american, it's not about where it was built, and what the parts are. It's about how it was engineered and designed and the buyer in mind. Ever think about why Japanese companys just cannot make a full-size truck. They don't understand the concept of full-size. I visited Japan and to find a car bigger than a Camary was a rarity, find a truck.....good luck. Buy American (cars designed for the american population in mind) ie: BIG, lots of power, good value, and good looks. __________________ .lakefire

07-13-2003, 11:09 AM	#8 (permalink)
neddy65 Loves green eggs and ham Location: I'm just sittin' here watching the world go round and round	I work in the automotive industry, and have, in various capacities, for years. I would love to see a lot of cross breeding to weed out the crap and keep the good. Every manufacturer has great highs and super lows from a maintenace point of view and combining the good stuff and losing the bad stuff would make life, and cars so much better. __________________ If you're travelling at the speed of light, and you turn the headlights on, do they do anything? My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die! Drink Dickens' Hard Cider because nothing makes a girl smile like a Hard DIckens' Cider!

10-02-2003, 08:23 PM	#12 (permalink)
merkerguitars Buffering......... Location: Wisconsin...	Yeah it's funny how it works out....I guess how the story goes is pretty much how it all started is that Honda was starting a plant in Ohio to build engines for Fords but Henry Ford II said we will never put a jap engine in an American car (hehehe MAZDA) but then when imports started to take over they wanted to put high import taxes to weed out the competition. So Honda just took their new plant and started to make cars to bypass the tax.....i heard this from a friend so i don't know how true it is... __________________ Donate now! Ask me How! Please use the search function it is your friend. Look at my mustang please feel free to comment! http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=26985

10-03-2003, 12:19 AM	#13 (permalink)
madsenj37 Still searching... Location: NorCal For Life	When i think American i think boat sized cars and shitty gas mileage. I also think about how they tend to lose value faster than other cars. __________________ "Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

07-10-2003, 01:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
bodypainter Psycho Location: Sarasota	True fact - I have a Honda built in Ohio, a Ford built in Mexico, and a Dodge built in Japan. I care more about who got paid wages to build it. That being the case, my Honda is more American. Of course the Ford and the Dodge made money for the companies shareholders and that's good, too.

07-10-2003, 02:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	Heh, I laugh at people who tell me to buy American. I always say that I did. My Civic was also built in Ohio. Then I ask where was your car made? Most times people don't even know. I think it's funny. Just because it's a Ford, GM, or Chrysler product that doesn't mean that it was built in the US with parts made in America.

07-10-2003, 03:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
Nyenrodian Tilted	Cars built in America suck usually. The difference between the Merc ML (USA) and the E class (Germany) in terms of build quality, interior materials etc is just unbelievable. The ML is inferior even to the A class MB in terms of build quality. Then about the domestic content in a product. That's old news. If you buy a Swiss Watch about 25 to 30% of the contents come from Asia usually. Cars are far more international. ZF transmissions. Bosch engine management, Ford Engine and a Jaguar X type label.

10-02-2003, 06:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
preluder Tilted Location: Houston, TX	to me, American Car usually means a plasticky interior. it seems as though a lot of american car companies don't put that much effort into their passenger cars and put all their focus on high margin SUVs.

10-03-2003, 05:26 AM	#14 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	There is a Honda engine in the Saturn VUE, the AWD loaded version has a honda V6 in it. Amercian cars are the prime exampe of make it, "as cheap as you can" and sell it for the most possible. That's the Amercian way. If you want something nice, solid, reliable and you'll get more then 65,000 miles from, you pay dollas for it.