Deltona Couple

I am curious what everyones opinions are on the current and soon-upcoming electric/hybrid vehicles. Do you like them? hate them? which ones do you like or hate? Personally I am looking forward to seeing the new Chevy Volt. Being a technician for GM, I have seen many of the GM hybrids, and have been training and learning about the Volt that is coming soon, and am excited to get my hands on one. So let me know your poinions, and why you like/dislike the particular one you mention. I am not looking for flames of the different manufactures, if you have EVIDENCE or FACT about the vehicles, then by all means post it, but lets try to leave the flaming of manufacturers out of this.

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shakran

I'm disappointed in the hybrids. The 1988 Honda CRX HF got 50mpg with a regular 4 cylinder engine. I would have hoped that exotic electric/gas hybrid engine technology would produce numbers far higher than that. The best we've gotten so far has been the Insight, and that sold about as well as the Edsel, and lost Honda money on every sale they made. The commercial success, the Prius, gets less mpg than the CRX did, which is rather silly.


And I do not understand the fixation with hybridizing SUV's. So you go from 19 to 23mpg. So what? It's still a gas guzzler.

Deltona Couple

While I dont agree with 23 mpg being considered a "gas gussler", not everyone can fit their family into something as small as a Prius. Remember that the conversion to electric and hybrid vehicles is not an overnight process. It takes time to get the power to fuel economy ratio needed to make things more efficient than their gas-only counterparts. While building electric cars and hybrids have been in the works for years(Chevy's old EV1 design started a long time ago, but failed) There is still a challenge to get the efficiency needed out of batteries, considering their weight. I think we should have started much sooner, but even a small step forward is better than not taking a step at all while waiting for the "perfect" battery car.

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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison

laconic1

I do like the potential of hybrids, but the cost of repairs is just extraordinary. Working for a warranty company I don't have any experience yet with the Escape, Civic, Malibu or Aura hybrids, but Prius parts are just stupid expensive. I can understand the hybrid specific parts like the motor and inverter costing a lot, but even normal parts like a rack and pinion cost double what the same part would cost for a Corolla. I'm not trying to flame the Prius, but one repair on that wipes out months, if not years of fuel savings. If I was in the market for a car I'd probably look at a Malibu hybrid. It seems like the right combination of improved efficiency, reasonable cost being a mild hybrid, and it doesn't stand out like a Prius does.

Willravel

I think it's good that auto companies are investing in the future instead of staying rooted in the past. We know electric cars can work, and, despite not being quite as efficient as originally advertised, hybrids work. They're both good first steps to moving on to more efficient an renewable sources of energy, better for everyone (except maybe the oil companies).

shakran

And that's the problem. We've been capable of much higher than 23mpg for over 2 decades, and yet we still think 23mpg is pretty decent.


Then we wonder why there's an oil crisis.

BadNick

I also see these as steps in the right direction. But all of these alternative motive technologies need a lot more development but you have to take one step at a time. I believe that one day we'll have clean, cost efficient and safe fission or fusion power available onboard cars and other vehicles.

One thing that bothers me about electric cars that plug into a conventional electric grid to recharge is the adverse ecological impact of many of the generating stations making that power.

blade02

If we embrace nuclear power, then I see fully electric cars as the future, and hybrid cars as a stepping stone.

I think to make electric cars viable, the automakers need to agree on a common battery cell. Small cars would use 1, larger cars could use more. These could be changed out like propane tanks are now. Go to the station, and swap out your low battery for a freshly charged one. Until then, range or cost will be a problem.

Amaras

I agree with the "step in the right direction" crowd. I hope the US manufacturers can get out ahead of this trend.

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pig

I definitely see electrics and hybrids (the current versions) as potential steps forward towards more efficient technologies, running on different production, storage, and distribution technologies than we currently employ. I'm personally somewhat less concerned about range than life-time, safety, operating condition and cost. At present, most people are looking for fuel cells or ICEs running on hydrogen as being the most probable long term energy carrier for automotive and some mid-range devices, but it might be battery technologies before all is said and done. As I was told a few months ago, it's sort of hard to imagine an electrochemical system lighter than something built on lithium, but that doesn't mean a discovery tomorrow won't change the playing field. At present, nuclear is a strong contender for the best power source of the future, but I would love to see solar cells/photovoltaics come along. As such, new technologies that serve to educate researchers, engineers, and everyone else involved in making the next generation of power technologies is a good thing. I think it's pretty clear that our current operations have a limited lifetime.

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ASU2003

I want one enough that I am making my own. Primarily because no company is making a pickup truck version for a price I'm willing to spend. If I can convert my own for under $10k, they should be able to make something in the $20k area.

The batteries are the problem, but they are also over engineering these cars. If they take out the range extending gas motor and make it a car for driving around town (30-40 miles), a lot of people will be able to use it. If you are going to work and back and then to dinner and shopping at night, and sitting in a lot of traffic and red lights, it will be a lot better than using a gas engine to idle. They had it right with the EV1. Just make a car that will run on battery power, and will last 30-40 years (by using aluminum, stainless steel, carbon fiber and plastic). Too bad that they would be out of business once everyone owned one since they would need little servicing and if they got rid of the model year, and just made the same model for 5-10 years, it would reduce costs and make finding parts easy.

If they make nuclear/radiation batteries (safely) that get basically unlimited range using spent non-reactor grade fuel (but still radioactive enough to provide 144V-400V), you will see every car become electric, and you might even be able to power your house when it is at home too. Traffic will become a major problem and states will have to find another way to tax us. But the idea that you can drive anywhere, without having to worry about the fuel cost is pretty exciting.

shakran

hey ASU:

ZAP Truck XL Reservation $99 | ZAP Electric Cars | Green Electric Car | Electric Scooters


15 grand for an all-electric pickup. The 3 wheel version is 13 grand + 1500 for an optional solar panel. You can even get it with a dump bed. There are Zap dealers springing up throughout the US. I saw a demo of one at an auto show last summer. They're no frills, but they're also no gas. I personally want the Zap Alias

Willravel

Don't forget the sedan:
Xebra Electric Sedan Reservation $99 | ZAP Electric Cars | Green Electric Car | Electric Scooters

snowy

I see Zaps around town on a regular basis. We've already got two places people can plug in while they're out and about--there is a charging station located downtown and another at the local hippie food co-op. I think they're pretty neat.

Personally, I think we ought to start by taking whatever small steps we can take. While it's fine and dandy to speculate about the technology we will have, we also ought to focus on what we can do in the meantime, like riding a bicycle, walking, or taking public transporation when feasible, and using the car only when necessary. I'd like to have an electric vehicle and a solar panel array at home to power it, but at the moment that's not economically feasible for me, so I do what I can with what I have. That means driving less.

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ASU2003

It is limited to 25mph though, and it's only 72V. It might work on a light enough car, but I would think 96V or 120V would be needed to go highway speeds with any range. Their other truck only has 3 wheels and wouldn't do as well in the US as it would in India and China.

ZAP Dude | ZAP Electric Cars | Green Electric Car | Electric Scooters
Now this ATV would be a no-brainer if I was in the market for this. I think they should also look into making electric snow machines (snow mobiles).

And they should take the Alias design and make an electric tron-like motorcycle. If they could make a removable hard top, that would be slick.

AquaFox

i think we should stop worrying about hybrids ands focus alternative fuels that are not gasoline... i studied alternative views for a bit a few months ago, too much stuff out there and it's ridiculous that our government wants to focus on gas electric hybrids. the new technology that keeps coming out every day is insane and they are not watching

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ASU2003

Like what? Ethanol? Bio-diesel? Natural Gas? LNP? Hydrogen? The only thing wrong with electric motors is the energy storage isn't there yet. But if you make cars with a electric motor powertrain, the energy generating motor can use one of these alternative fuel types with only swapping out a few parts. It would be interesting if the auto companies made electric vehicles with battery packs for city driving, but if you wanted to go out of town, you could rent a motor from them for a few days.

The main reason electric cars are an option is because the infrastructure is already in place (even though it isn't always the best). Natural gas is also in many homes and could get filling stations up and running quickly. Hydrogen could be great if the found out a simple way to use a little energy to split H20 molecules at home. Ethanol and bio-diesel have to be sold at gas stations run by companies looking to make money, not sell to a handful of customers that can use it and will use it.

BadNick

Plasma Boy Racing is having some electric car fun with their White Zombie...though not from an everyday practical point of view Welcome to Plasma Boy Racing, home of White Zombie, the world's quickest street legal electric door slammer in the 1/4 mile drag.

A video of it: Oregon Field Guide — Electric Drag Racing Oregon Public Broadcasting

Deltona Couple

Am I to assume that you are one of those "conspiracy theroists" who think that GM and Ford are hiding the technology for these "uber" efficient vehicles you are talking about so they can hold hands with "Big Oil" for large amounts of money? We DO have vehicles out there that make much better than 23 MPG, but as I have stated, not everyone can fit their entire families inside one of them, and that was the point I was making, in that a SUV or Mini-van that gets 23 MPG is not so rediculous.

As far as the EV1, even though the concept behind the vehicle was sound, the biggest problem with that vehicle, which is the same with these "home grown" electric cares was safety and longevity. If you do the research, the government has DEMANDED that the electric car must pass certain requirements to be accepted as a vehicle that can be sold in the US. It must be efficient, meaning that the range of the electric portion must be above what it can get for its gasoline equivalent. With todays technology, GM is having a challenge finding the right battery.

Currently there are two battery manufacturers that have made it to the final testing phase, one from the USA, and the other from Europe. Both batteries are undergoing severe thermal, wear, and endurance testing to see which one gets used in the new Volt. And the first mandate is that the new battery packs must be warrantied for 10 years and 150k miles...thats a HUGE requirement considering the average life expectancy of a battery. The other major requirement is safety. Each battery MUST pass certain specifications in safety. You have to understand that a charged battery is in essence a bomb. think about it, you have a large amount of potential energy just waiting on an outlet. If not working within the mandated specs, any battery that is being used in the "home grown" vehicles has a SERIOUS potential for exploding. Something that obviously the car manufacturers can't have happen. So the battery must undergo extensive safety tests as well. Its not as easy as so many of you seem to think.

Personally I wouldnt get caught DEAD in one of these home-grown electric cars out there. they havent done the testing yet for safety. and the NIMh batteries used in most of these are quite volital! Personally I don't want to take the risk there, considering how large the battery packs are. Sure the manufacturers could slap together an electric car that gets you 60 miles on a single charge, and will cost you say 25k for the finished product, but then it might only last us 3 years, for current battery designs. I dont know about you, but I want my car to last longer than 3 years before I have to replace a $10k battery!

As far as charging the vehicles, I can't say specifics about anything other than the Volt, but It has a "smart charging" system that actually is capable of monitoring the grid system for excessive loads, and cuts down on it's charging demand durring those times. The system is even smart enough to send electric current back into the grid if needed. Hows THAT for a smart car? The load required is usually only made at night anyway, which is when MOST of these cars will be plugged in, when most people on the local grid are sleeping, and demand for electricity is lowest.

And just in case any of you are curious, Yes I do love the technology involved here and have been working with the engineers and field engineers on the Tahoe hybrid since early last year when the first Tahoe hybrids hit the showrooms. And I am really looking forward to the first Volts, as I am told I might get a change to use one for the field testing next year!

__________________
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Willravel

23 mpg for a whole family is abysmal. The Volkswagen Sharan, a minivan available in Europe, gets about 45 mpg combined. It seats 7, just like any other minivan. Even here in the US we have several minivans that break 30 mpg. The only excuse for being under maybe 25 mpg is if you need to tow something heavy.
[QUOTE=Deltona Couple;2578062]As far as the EV1, even though the concept behind the vehicle was sound, the biggest problem with that vehicle, which is the same with these "home grown" electric cares was safety and longevity. If you do the research, the government has DEMANDED that the electric car must pass certain requirements to be accepted as a vehicle that can be sold in the US. It must be efficient, meaning that the range of the electric portion must be above what it can get for its gasoline equivalent. With todays technology, GM is having a challenge finding the right battery.[QUOTE]
The EV1 passed all government tests, otherwise it wouldn't have been leased in the first place. The issue, according to GM, was that there wasn't enough demand. Of course the truth is that there were steady waiting lists for leasing the EV1 from the day it was released until the day it was taken off the street. All 800 publicly leased EV1s were on the street.

ASU2003

Most of the homemade electric cars use lead acid car/golf-cart batteries. Except for the fact that there is a high voltage, it's not that unsafe. And since the batteries are under the hood or where the fuel tank used to be, they should be ok. And the cars have already passed the safety tests. I mean, a chevy s10 doesn't become less safe because it has a bunch of batteries in the back. The airbags and seatbelts still work, and the crumple zones and reinforced beams are still the same.

The NiMH battery patents are held by a large oil company and no one is allowed to make a large battery pack to sell to home builders or the auto companies. I would like to be able to buy a 156V battery with enough amp-hours to power a pickup truck from one of the battery stores around here.

But, I do worry about the life of these batteries and making sure that they can be recycled or reused again. The other thing is, if some new great and cheap battery does come out, it wouldn't take a lot of effort to change it out and make the car better.

Charging is an issue and hopefully the government and power companies can work on that. I'm not sure why it would be in the car owners interest to feed power back to the grid though. Maybe if they wanted to power their house when the power went out.

Fotzlid

Ok. Nobody else is taking this side so I will.

I think electric/hybrid cars are nothing more than a marketing ploy.
Corporate America is well versed on targeting the current consumer trend which, currently, is anything "green". For example, not that long ago the market was awash in SUV's because that was the current trend. In the 60's it was muscle cars. The price of gas spiked and there is ongoing debate about global warming and the impact autos have on this. Now everyone wants smaller, "green" vehicles.

Nuclear power is flat out unrealistic. Hydrogen power is a way off. The technology is still too new to be practical.

Battery power is actually more harmful to the enviroment than gas powered vehicles. First you have to mine the materials, then ship them to a factory to be assembled and finally it is shipped to the auto plant to be placed in the vehicle. Then there is the problem of disposing of the batteries when they are no longer useful.

The auto companies could build very high mileage cars if they thought it would bring a profit. The US consumer typically equates high mileage with small and slow. With all the advances in automotive technology over the past 20 years or so, it is not unrealistic to think much higher mileage could be obtained. Compare the drivetrain of a modern vehicle with one from the 70's and the best they can do is a paltry 10-15mpg improvement?

Jam

This reminds me of penn and teller's bullshit episode about environmental hysteria, where they had protesters signing a petition to ban water.

ASU2003

Just because oil is cheap now, doesn't mean that it will always be cheap. The easy to drill places are running out of oil, or propping up countries that have some dislike for the western world. And drilling under to ocean isn't the easiest thing to do.

And I don't care that much about the CO2 emissions, but it's the other pollutants, you wouldn't want to live in a house with a car running in the garage, but all these cars, planes and other sources are putting lots of crap into the air.
And gas powered cars have really complicated engine design compared to the few moving parts electric cars have.

cj2112

I think it's an interesting experiment, but I'm not convinced that the current trend is going to be the solution. While hybrids help people to feel like they're making a statement and helping the environment, I don't buy into the hype.

What do you do with the batteries? If everybody were to move towards electric vehicles, would we be able to generate enough electricity to handle the increased demand? What about the pollution created by generating that electricity? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think those are just a few of the issues w/ moving towards electric vehicles.

Deltona Couple

OK, I am going to try and address all the statments made after my last one, so forgive me if I miss anything:

Will, While I will have to agree that the VW you mentioned is definately higher in MPG than mine, and will seat 7, It is not available for me here in the US (personally though I don't like its looks, but to each his own right?) Personally I have a hard time finding anything that gets mileage like that that I can afford.I chose my van not just for it seating all of us, but it is quite universal in its stow-n-go seating and storage space while traveling. I mean what good does it do to have a good mileage vehicle for traveling if you have this giant bag on the roof that I see too often? lol.
As far as the EV1, It was NOT the epic advanvement that everyone thought it was. while it DID make many of the claims of distance/energy ratio, the longevity of the battery itself was low, and there were still too many problems with the design and its cost efficiency as a full production vehicle.

ASU: You need to go back and check on exactly how UNSAFE the lead-acid type batteries are. they are quite unsafe actually. The average car battery does two things, starts the car, and then helps stabilize the voltage of the alternator. It does NOT supply power to the vehicle while it is running, so on average the battery itself is not used much, while in an electric car, the batteries are being treated quite severely in discharging/charging, and when was the last time you saw a car battery last a full 10 years before replacement was needed? If you do the research you will find that the lead-acid batteries are quite unafe when used in this manner. Golf cart batteries do not last a long time, nor are they efficient enough for commercial application in a car that is to be used on the interstate. tough they work fine in short term application for the golf carts.
As far as the safety concerns I was not refering to airbags and seatbelts, I was refering to the danger of a lead acid batteries danger if it were to short out or explode when so many of them are tied together.
And with the grid system, it is merely a design for short term, not long term, as in if the grid ecomes very low on voltage output, it can send some back. it is DEFINATELY not designed to run anything. I dont think I am maybbe explaining the system as well as I am meaning.

Fotzlid: I really dont know what to say to your comment. To each his own I guess, I am not much into the conspiracy theory you seem to be bringing up.

CJ2112: The demand for charging these vehicles is much lower than you think. For example the Volt is rated as such that with a total charge needed, it will cost the average homeowner less that $30 per month, so when compared to the fuel you will save it is much more efficient that an ICE. Also, the carbon footprint of this vehicle is MUCH lower than any ICE out there. even when the ICE on the Volt is running, it has a very small footprint.

Thanks for all the responses so far. I am enjoying the feeback!

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shakran

No, and I'm kind of confused as to why you would immediately jump to that conclusion. The "conspiracy" is not hiding the technology, but failing utterly to develop it in the first place. Rather than do R&D on how to make cars more efficient, Detroit concentrated on making them more powerful. Efficiency gains in engines were eaten up by then making the engines bigger, and making the cars into SUV's.

Is it all Detroit's fault? No. The idiot American consumer who just had to have that giant SUV even though they didn't need a vehicle that size is just as, if not more, to blame. The overall American attitude regarding vehicles has been "I want what I want and anyone hurt by it can fuck off."

We saw that attitude at least twice with the SUV crowd - They didn't care that they were getting single digit to low teens mileage, even though that meant they were using up the limited resource of oil much faster than necessary, and they didn't care that buying a vehicle half the size of a semi put everyone in smaller cars in greater danger if they wreck.



The Honda CRV Diesel 4x4 gets 36 combined mpg. and it will seat you, your wife, and your three kids. But it's not available stateside. Why?



Bullshit. Look harder. The Tesla Roadster will go over 200 miles on a charge. LiIon batteries would have given the EV-1 a 300 mile range.

the Zap Zebra sedan goes something like 40 miles on a charge, and you can still buy and legally drive it here. This range issue is a load of bunk.

Yes, and we already have batteries that passed that test. You can even buy them at Sears. The electro-hybrid battery packs passed the test. The Zap cars passed the test. Tesla passed the test. Why can't GM manage to pass the test? Sure, they want to get the technology /now,/ once everyone's finally figured out that, hey, gas prices can go really high. But why weren't they researching that in the 80's, 90's, and most of this decade? Simple. They didn't want to. They wanted to go for maximizing profits today rather than worrying about what the demand would be in 20 years.





Well it'd be nice if the automakers could do more with NiMH batteries, but the oil companies bought the patents to them as applied in vehicles specifically so that they can't. Further, there are several homegrown electric cars out there that use laptop batteries.

As far as the batteries potentially exploding. . Please. The battery technology has been thoroughly researched and tested, and is in use every day by millions of Americans. It's called power wheelchairs. A series of several of those batteries would easily be enough to power a car.

At any rate, I find it highly interesting that there's such fervor over "oh my god! We can't do an electric vehicle until it's fully ready to be a long range and efficient mode of transportation!" when we're eagerly shoving ethanol, which lowers our vehicles' efficiencies, raises the price of food and gas, and requires siginficant government kickbacks in order to stay afloat, down people's throats.

As it stands now, ethanol is not a viable fuel source, especially since we'd have to convert a large portion of arable land (including leveling every structure in the US to make room for corn fields) to farmland in order to fuel the whole fleet. Yet the government is not only requiring that ethanol be blended into gasoline (and some states are getting ready to require that it be blended into gasoline at a level that will damage engines), but it's also providing over 50 cents per gallon as a tax credit for using ethanol (which explains why ethanol isn't a good deal more expensive than gas at the pump - you've already paid for it every April).

Detroit can whine and bitch about all the horrible things standing against the electric car all it wants. The fact is that until recently very little research was done on them, what research /was/ done was squelched, and for the past 3 decades we've frittered away time that could have been going into solving all the problems you bring up.

Deltona Couple

First, my apoligies I guess for jumping to conclusions. Most of the time when I hear someone start off with the "gas-guzzler" comment, it is followed by the conspiracy theory that the manufacturers are trying to squash technology instead of trying to use it or develop it better.

WOW...I didnt expect to have to wear a fire retardent suit to make this thread..lol....almost seems like it's an attack on me cause I like my van. BTW, the Honda may fit me and my wife, and 3 kids...but where will I put my 4th kid? my exchange student?...I need something larger to fit us, that is comfortable for the road trips we make often. and my van does it. At least I'm not driving around in the giant Suburbans that GM and Ford are making.

OK, a nice vehicle, the Tesla, but personally I dont want to spend the 109K price tag attatched, and neither would most of your average people. not to mention that again, I cant fit my family in a 2 seater. So fine, let them share the technology with others so that a vehicle can be mass produced at a lower cost that the average family can afford. Remember, GM is trying to make a car that is efficient, safe, and AFFORDABLE for the average consumer...no need to call BS towards me. I am merely commenting my own opinions, and research that I have made. That is why I made this thread, to find out more information and opinions...and as far as the Zap, sorry, but I cant even maintain legal highway speeds in that thing.

Actually you are wrong. according to Tesla's own website, they said thier batteries are expected to last 5 years, not the 10 required by the government for acceptance for the mass production of the electric cars. Not I applaud them for what they have done, I am just saying that what is required has not yet been met.

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Willravel

I wasn't saying that it's a good option for the US, actually my point was that we don't get the best options here. The VW is hardly the only 40 mpg+ people carrier in Europe (or Japan for that matter), but instead of having the same option, we get completely different models which barely break 30 mpg, if that. And yes, the thing looks horrible, but that's really just the outside panels. It would be easy to make an attractive minivan that gets the same mileage that looks nice. The point is that it's absolutely possible, so we're getting ripped off with these 23 mpg options. 23 mpg really should only be for diesel trucks, hauling something. How much could 7 people and some luggage weigh? Maybe 1600 lbs? That's nothing.
The battery could be replaced very easily. It could be done in an hour at the dealership, and as it was done more not only would the process become cheaper, but demand for more efficient batteries would have increased and it's likely that would have pushed the market farther, faster.

You can't deny that there were a great many people that were more than willing to deal with any perceived deficiencies for the car's benefits. I myself would certainly enjoy having an electric car, and had I been older at the time you can bet that my name would have been on that waiting list.

shakran

No, not at all. People who want family haulers should be able to get your hands on them. You should be able to drive your van if you want. But, had Detroit been doing what it should have for 3 decades, you'd be using a lot less gas to do it. There is, btw, a distinction between people like you, who apparently need to get 6 people at once into a vehicle, and people like my neighbor, who lives alone but has a jacked up Excursion that at most carries 2 people at a time.





Yes, and that's justified. Now wouldn't it be nice if your van did it and got 20mpg more than it does now? It's doable. Hell I used to drive a full sized van, back when the Fords came with the V6 and got 600 miles per tank. Now the most efficient engine you can get is the V8 that gets between 11 and 15mpg. For work we have a V10 (which also is not necssary, but it's the only engine that live trucks come with these days) and you can almost watch the fuel gauge go down when you hit the throttle.



Quite true. When the car was first invented it was just as inaccessible to the majority of people. but by mass producing it and putting effort into making a product that worked and worked for an efficient cost, now almost everyone has a car.

Electric cars are going to stay absurdly expensive (except, again, for the Zaps, which are quite reasonable if you're willing to have a pretty barebones car) until they are produced on a scale that makes them more economical to manufacture. And that isn't going to happen until serious R&D is put into it, and until the majors get behind it.

Didn't say you could. I mentioned Zap because they're slow and have very short range, yet they're able to be sold here. Therefore the government is not stopping people from selling electric vehicles just because they have short range


I'm not wrong. I never said Tesla had a 10 year battery.

Deltona Couple

You said that the Tesla DID pass the requirements, therefore I felt safe in assuming you meant even the longevity requirement which is 10 years.

While I do agree that we can all say "Coulda, woulda, shoulda" I am trying to reference what IS going on today, and what can be done to improve what we have. Anyone can be an armchair quarterack and look at the PAST, I am trying to refer to the here and now. what do we have NOW, and how well you like or dislike what we have currently on the market, and upcoming in the near future. Personally when it comes to mass production, I think the Volt is going to hit the market first, and stronger than what else may be out there.

__________________
"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison

shakran

hehe. check again. I said the Tesla's batteries pass the "won't blow the car up" test.




And I stand by my original statement. We can achieve the mileage the hybrids are getting with conventional powertrains. We did it 20 years ago. We do it now in Europe. We just aren't doing it here in the states. Why?

At any rate, if we can achieve with a conventional (and therefore less expensive to make, buy, fix, and replace) powertrain, then what advantage does the hybrid powertrain give us? It's another "I feel good about myself" "green" scheme that doesn't actually do much, if anything...Much like the recycling bins we all use even though many of them end up getting dumped into the same landfill as your garbage.


Of course it is. It's made by a (now federally-backed) megacorporation. What chance does Tesla/Zap/Tzero have against that kind of muscle? Hell the guys at Tzero can't even use the regenerative braking AC motor they want to use yet because they don't have the money.

And if it actually works, that will be great, to a point. (we'll ignore the inconvenient fact that charging the Volt requires the coal plant to produce the electricity for it, and therefore causes the emissions directly related to the car to be about on-parity with conventional cars - - at least we aren't wasting gas with it.)

The Volt is closer to what a hybrid car should be - -but I was giving my opinion on currently available hybrids, of which I remain underimpressed.

Deltona Couple

I COMPLETELY idsagree with you on your statment of "we'll ignore the inconvenient fact that charging the Volt requires the coal plant to produce the electricity for it, and therefore causes the emissions directly related to the car to be about on-parity with conventional cars - - at least we aren't wasting gas with it." You can't be further than the truth. The cost of the electricity for charging it will come nowhere NEAR the output of a conventional car. I have done the research on this. the plants yes will be used to charge the system, but the carbon fooprint will be MUCH lower than a conventional car puts out.

As far as the statement you had made, I guess I wrongfully assumed since it was in reference to my statement, that you were also including the longevity requirements that were demanded by the government.

As far as why the high mileage vehicles you say are being made today in Europe are not being sold here in the US, the only thing that I can think of is from what I have HEARD, is that those vehicles do not have the emission control requirements that we have here in place in the US.

As far as the "Megacorporation" that is being federally backed, the original backing was made by our government years ago, and the government STILL has money available to those who ask for it, once they show that they have something viable for mass production, and unit costs. Why does Tesla not ask for it? I don't know, for I don't work for them.

Now I am not saying that todays hybrids are "mega efficient" but when you take a truck that gets about 12-13 MPG average, convert it to a hybrid that is now capable of 26 to 28 MPG average, then personally I think it is a great step considering it was a 100% increase in MPG....now lets get this same technology into the other vehicles that get 30+ and if we can get 100% increase on them, them this will be even better. No we don't have the most perfect system, and no not every company did the exact best thing. But I still believe that we are heading atleast NOW in the right general direction. I almost get the impression that you MIGHT be thinking that we should just scrap the whole company?...lol

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Willravel

Solar charging stations will become more common as electric cars return to the road.

Deltona Couple

I had not thougt of that idea. But I ask this, since MOST cars will be charged at night....how can we use a solar panel setup for this? or even better, what if we used a solar panel setup that could be carefully mounted on the vehicle itself, that could help durring engine off times at work? (assuming you dont park in a parking garage..lol)

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shakran

A UK study determined that a volt charged with power provided by non-nuclear/wind/hydro/solar power plants will result in the plant emitting 124.2 g/km of carbon dioxide for electric-only driving. that's more than the BMW 118d emits. So, really, I'm not very far from the truth at all,

Assuming the power comes from a nuclear plant, yes, you're right, the environmental impact will be lessened (ignoring of course the niggling problem of storing radioactive waste that won't be safe for hundreds of thousands of years, but that's a topic for another thread), but it's important that we not run around claiming, as some have, that an electric car is a zero emissions vehicle. It's not. Moving the source of the emissions doesn't make the emissions magically disappear.


sort of, but not really. When you look at the overall energy plan in the auto industry it's 1) ADD because they're fooling around with multiple technologies at once and 2) rather annoyingly bad, because they're pushing ethanol and hydrogen, both of which cost more in either dollars or energy (or both) to make than you get out of them, neither of which is viable as a fuel.

Scrap GM? Might not be such a bad idea in the long run. They haven't made decent cars in decades, by their own admission, with the rare exception of a limited production vehicle like the Corvette. They poured R&D into making ultra powerful SUV's, rather than figuring out how to make efficient cars. And don't say they had no way of knowing an energy crisis was coming - we've known for decades that we are at the mercy of OPEC, ever since they pulled the first oil embargo in the 70's. We've known they could do it again any time they want, and we've known that we are entirely hostage to the gasoline industry if we only use gasoline to run our cars, and insist on using far more than necessary to run them. They did it out of short-term profit desires, and for no other reason. Now it's coming back to bite them.

Willravel

That's not how solar stations that exist now work. They charge batteries during the day, and the electricity from those batteries goes into the vehicle. Charging directly from solar panels would be way too slow for most people.

Still, I read about a year ago that someone had successfully tested IR nano-solar panels that use infrared, which we are bombarded with nearly 24/7. Those would be very useful.

pig

Well, I think it's sufficient to say a few things:

1. We have to do something. I don't think the current models are perfect by a longshot, and I think it's a pretty good bet that they will be outfazed within 10 years. However, that's the problem with any early adopter market. Thought you were slick with that bag phone, or that beta movie cassette, or that 8-track? Well suck it brother. But the basic concept of making portable communication and media devices has caught on big. Same thing with a lot of technologies - it's going to take time to get it to be more-or-less acceptable, and yes I think we're behind the ball. Then again, a majority of people still believe in and conduct themselves in what I would consider to be pretty archaic fashions, so I don't think it's much of a surprise. People en masse don't do shit until they have to, or it's incredibly profitable, or conversely incredibly easy.

1.a. I do think the current models are useful for those that can afford them, because we can learn from what doesn't work as a scientific and engineering community.

1.b. I think that people need to stop seeing their cars as imaginary metal dicks, and more as a tool. I've got a little thing in my toolbag (that I affectionately call my Whammy Bar) that can rip out dry wall, pull nails, split wood, and pry out most things I have a need to around the house. It's ugly as a motherfucker, but it gets the job done. I don't care if it's pretty.

2. Most technologies currently considered as viable alternatives for energy production and storage in the future are not viable right now. Pick one. I can tell you reasons it won't work right now. I can also point to cases where it's coming along, and where research needs to be conducted to get to the next step. But there is hope. Batteries are interesting because we know that they work in many cases right now, and there is something of a production and distribution setup to whip them out. Hydrogen is interesting because it has the "potential" to be clean, and the current storage capacities (albeit of fairly exotic materials) are better than those of batteries. Ethanol/bio is interesting because the materials aren't necessarily exotic, and they directly harness our only real original power source: the sun.

3. Nuclear is a different animal: it's a source, not a carrier. Given the issues with radiation/health, and the safety concerns, I don't really see active nuclear as an instantaneous source/carrier anytime soon - but as a source that we might be able to implement with reasonable energy production, and then transfer the energy to another carrier - it's worth looking at. Of course, all of these technologies run into a little problem when you consider projected energy demands versus potential for production/actual resources available; the time to put these technologies in place and the investment required to get them there.

So we continue to do research - but the field is very fractured. This is because there is no clear winner at this point. Therefore, I think that implementing and testing these electric/hybrid technologies is a positive step - even if it proves to be incorrect in hindsight. The more people concentrate on shifting their consciousness and expectations, the better off we will be. Just remember: we are in an early adopter market - so the first things that come out are almost destined to be dinosaurs in 10-20 years.

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ASU2003

There are a few parking lots/garages that have put solar panels roofs over them. When no electric cars are there, the power goes into the grid, when there are cars, it gives them some power.

We might have to build a bunch of wind turbines and hydro/wave power generation.

But that is the thing, you can make a large amount of cars really clean 'overnight' by building a different type of power station. Where, if you leave it up to the individual to scrap their current car, buy and electric car, then pay extra for green power, it is very hard to push people to do this and won't get done for decades.

And lead acid batteries are recycled and most of their components (~97%) are reused in new batteries. And if they come out with a great new battery, if you have an electric car, changing out the battery is pretty easy and will improve your car quite a bit.

Deltona Couple

Well I think the guys at Tesla would disagree with you. their study came up with much different results.

Tesla Motors - well-to-wheel

In a direct comparison the Electric car is much more efficient, and creates less emissions than any other ICE vehicle. While this is a different vehicle than the Volt, the principals are the same.

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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison