Sporty Cars in the $15,000 - $18,000 Range - Suggestions? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sean paul · 07-07-2003, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mazdarx
That car with the body kit is a Supra. You could look at a Mazdaspeed Protege, they are turbocharged with 170HP, not exactly a rocketship, but the handling is incredible.

not a supra..

if anyone would have gone to the website and looked around a little bit and seen the donor cars required. they'd see those are based off of older camaro/firebirds and one is based off a honda accord .

mazdaspeed protoge would be cool.

89transam · 07-07-2003, 10:30 AM

I think the overall consesus is.....

Dont buy a new car, you can afford a much better vehicle no matter what you buy if it is slightly used.

inbeastic · 07-07-2003, 12:20 PM

Get a 97-01 Prelude. Practical with enough speed and handling, can be had for less than 15K.

digital-linx · 07-07-2003, 05:36 PM

Look for a 1990-92 Porsche 944 S2 Turbo - they are fast as hell and turn more heads than the cheap trashy jap cars out there.

imo of course...

jhk451 · 07-07-2003, 10:39 PM

is a used wrx totally out of the question? i'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, 'cause that car with factory specs is a quick car.

evo_schen · 07-09-2003, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jhk451
is a used wrx totally out of the question? i'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, 'cause that car with factory specs is a quick car.

not likely that you'll be able to get a decent used wrx for that limit of 18k

PoteMatic · 07-09-2003, 10:13 AM

89transam what kind of car is it?

Bigheadcraig · 07-09-2003, 02:06 PM

I'd definitely go with the SRT-4. They're fast as hell, and they go for about 20k, and the only option is side curtain airbags, everything else is standard, so there's not a whole lot of crap to jack up the price. This car is an amazing deal.

stvdman · 07-09-2003, 04:52 PM

ARe you looking at both used and new cars or just one or the other???

Scott · 07-09-2003, 07:36 PM

Stvdman, really either. Still haven't made a firm decision. I've kinda ran into a bit of bills I need to pay that I wasn't expecting, so my new car has been postponed a bit.

Still looking, though

Hard to beat that Mr2, I'm really in love with that car.

zcwrx · 07-11-2003, 05:41 PM

used wrx. I got my '02 for less than 18k w/ 5000 miles on it....w00t.

zcwrx · 07-12-2003, 02:35 PM

Here is a pic.

AsianRage · 07-13-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 89transam
Rx7....looks good but they are way unrelaible I hear. I guess anything after 40 k miles and your are due for an engine faliure (some seal problem or somehting)..

Hey you want something with a body kit.... Give ya three guess what this car origonally was...

The kit runs around 7 K.

and a few links of video

http://www.k1-styling.sk/evo1/video/v3.jpg

http://www.k1-styling.sk/video/video1.avi

I'm surprise you didn't suggest the Attack...

MSD · 07-13-2003, 07:03 PM

Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo AWD

I've seen them go for 15k on ebay. Spend the extra 3k on a boost controller.

Stare At The Sun · 07-15-2003, 07:20 PM

If you havent bought it yet, get a 90-94 Eclipse/talon/laser That is turbo charged w/ AWD, can be had for under 5k, easy, then plunk about 7g's into mods, and run 10's daily. The 4g63 is one bulletproof engine, and its the same one thats in the EVO. I think you'd be impressed with them. Plus, w/ the left over 5k or so, either save for possible repairs, or go get REALLY drunk, and get lots of puntang.

89transam · 07-15-2003, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnlikedOne
and get lots of puntang.

Tee He he

puddlesmilo · 07-17-2003, 03:19 AM

93-95 RX-7 Generation 3

They're way cool looking (stock), fairly rare.

I've had one for ten years. If you leave it stock it last a real long time. If you mod it and do the research it will also last. The reason people say that they're unreliable is they didn't do their homework. Stuck a loud exhaust on it etc and the engine will pop.

EleqTrizi'T · 07-18-2003, 01:18 PM

Tiburon V6's have extremely weak blocks. Very poor for performance upgrading.

For your money, you can get a cheap Turbo Eclipse (the 1990-94's are built better, not as cool looking) and spend wads of dough on parts.

For new, I'm also partial to the Neon. The Mopar performance upgrades are great. Stage 1 is like $399 and puts the Neon at 250hp.

<img src="http://www.thestardock.com/imgs/personal/semaias/images/IM001243.jpg">
<img src="http://www.thestardock.com/imgs/personal/semaias/images/IM001133.jpg">

Das Eighty · 07-21-2003, 06:49 AM

A Neon will always be a Neon. I don't really mean to be ripping on that car, but, years of production have led that car to be bought buy people who really can't get anything better and is also a car that is considered "cheap" Interior on the new Neon is shabby too. If this is going to be your first car, then don't buy a new one. Try and find yourself a nice Mark 3 Volkswagen GTI VR6, you can get them anywhere from 7 to 13 thousand with less than 50 or 60K miles. Excellent cars, and engines that will last you for a LONG time. My .02

Stinky Pee · 07-22-2003, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 89transam
Rx7....looks good but they are way unrelaible I hear. I guess anything after 40 k miles and your are due for an engine faliure (some seal problem or somehting)..

Hey you want something with a body kit.... Give ya three guess what this car origonally was...

All you need to do is throw the goonie-bird back on the hood or put the IROC stickers back on the doors.

Stinky Pee · 07-22-2003, 08:36 PM

That much power in a neon will only serve to crack the block faster, and wind-blast even more paint off sooner.

Stinky Pee · 07-22-2003, 08:38 PM

Oh yeah, don't get the toyota: perverts drive those 'cause they can still convince 17 year old girls it's a porche.

Edvard_Grieg · 07-22-2003, 10:11 PM

Hmmm....
Sleepers:
Ford SVT Contour (Friend has one and it kicks ass)
Lincoln Mark VIII (Basically a cobra engine and tuning in lincoln tails

)

If you are looking at a kit car potentially, check out www.factoryfive.com they will send you free info (got mine in a week) The kits are built off of the 5.0 Mustang into Shelby replicas. They perform like none other and are sexy as hell

TwistedFate · 07-22-2003, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott
Hard to beat that Mr2, I'm really in love with that car.

hmmm gonna have to give the nod to the MR2

. I own the 2nd generation, and I've driven several of the 1st and 3rd Gen Spyders (including a turbo charged one rated around 210 HP in a car that barely breaks the 2000lb mark, talk about extreme grin factor). I'd actually suggest getting a 2nd Gen ('90-'95) Turbo MR2. You can get a nice one for about $7-8K, 180hp stock. They can be brought into the 200+ range easily. Mid engine, rear wheel drive configuration means it handles like it's on rails, once you get used to a few quirks inherent in all MR setups. (Flooring the gas when the rear end breaks loose just defies all logic at first). They aren't the quickest cars on the block. By this I mean the 1/4 mile times aren't spectacular but the it wasn't designed to do the 1/4 quickly. It's designed to go through a turn faster than anybody else so you don't waste time accelerating back up to speed, which it does very well. I don't know if all out speed is your thing but I'll tell you my NA got up to 122 before I ran out of room. It didn't have much left but I probably could've squeezed out another 5 mph. The Turbo owners have reported speeds of up to 140 on a stock setup. Again not the fastest out there, but fast enough to get you killed if you aren't careful.

For more info, here is the MR2 message board: http://www.board.mr2faq.com I'm a mod over there. The board has a few problems because of a mangled, bloated database that we are fixing when the new software is released, but it's full of friendly, helpful people.

I also have to give a nod to the Miata. That's a good, fun car.

newman · 07-23-2003, 12:39 AM

Very surprised no one mentioned it, but for gods sake...

1991+ Nissan 300zx Twin Turbo.

They run around 8-14k with low miles. Stock 300HP. Awesome awesome car. For next to nothing you can have them running 450+HP.

SRT-4 is also an awesome car.

My input.

trigger123 · 07-24-2003, 07:23 AM

for something new, Saturn is releasing a supercharged 200hp version of the quad coupe this fall called "redline" I think. Cool design, no door dings, and warranty.

doctorphibes · 07-24-2003, 02:53 PM

I can't believe someone actually recommended a V6 Mustang. What are you, a dental hygienist?

Anyway, the Miata gets a ton of flack, something about being a "chick car" or whatever, but it's hard to beat for the money. Considering the other cars in the class/price range, I'd take a RWD roadster with an optional 6-speed and the handling of much more expensive cars any day.

sp00g3 · 07-24-2003, 04:29 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VirFighter
[B]If you like the MR2 have you looked at the miata?

Not sure if are aware or not but the MR2 has only slightly more storage space than a motorcycle. I know that practicality isn't really an issue with sports cars but at least the miata can store an overnight bag.
[QUOTE]

Miata however costs 23k+ and I think the MR2 looks better.

pezking4 · 07-24-2003, 05:18 PM

Finding a decent, low mileage 300zx TT that hasn't been beaten to death can be hard. But if you do find one, grab it!

tupacalypse1622 · 07-27-2003, 10:45 PM

i agree with newman...also the tiburon looks pretty nice and the aftermarket seems to be supporting it quite well....dont get the mr2...looks like a poor man's wannabe porsche

newman · 07-28-2003, 12:20 AM

Tiburons really aren't bad looking, and they perform better than you'd think, but it's a Hyundai

I have nothing against the MR2, I like the looks of them.

Just throwing out ideas really. 3rd gen Mazda Rx-7's look awesome and can be had for 14k or less, you'd just have to get a factory rebuild on them for ~$1,500 at around ~80,000 miles and they're good to go for another 100k miles if you treat it right.

The.Lunatic · 07-28-2003, 01:34 AM

That is a nice amount of cash.

Are you buying it straight up?

Or are you making a down payment then finacing it?

Regardless, I'm not sure what kinda car you want.

But I gurantee a Camero will get you the pussay!

However, If i were you i would go with your first instinct and get the MR2 140 hp isn't much, but it won't break either. really small block engines like that one generally hold together forever and ever. Toyotas also have excelent reputations. I don't think i'd put the body kit on it. Use that spare money to add some nice speakers and an amp in there. Cars are kinda like you IF you look good on the outside they don't mind getting it, but if its trick on the inside they'll love it and it will reflect on you.

Then again thats a very materialistc aproach, but hey i think you'd like that car.

Caser · 07-28-2003, 09:05 AM

why dont u grab a prelude or integra???
those r sporty cars that have so much u can do to them

The.Lunatic · 07-28-2003, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by newman
Tiburons really aren't bad looking, and they perform better than you'd think, but it's a Hyundai

I have nothing against the MR2, I like the looks of them.

Just throwing out ideas really. 3rd gen Mazda Rx-7's look awesome and can be had for 14k or less, you'd just have to get a factory rebuild on them for ~$1,500 at around ~80,000 miles and they're good to go for another 100k miles if you treat it right.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/...mitt/m3016.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/...mitt/m3017.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/...mitt/m3021.jpg

I agree to this you would love an RX7, and if you get it used.

If its a car that depreciates a lot after you drive it off the lot, always buy it one year used. Then again this is what i said to my mom who bought a Toyota Highlander ther other day and used ones were only 1-4 thousand less than the dealer was going to give us. So she ovbiously went for the new one.

Toyotas just don't depreciate like american cars.

theguyondacouch · 07-28-2003, 05:13 PM

pinto wagon with a small block chevy

32v4c · 07-31-2003, 01:29 PM

You're probably aware, but the 2nd gen MR2 turbo was an amazing car. If you can find one in your area in decent condition GET IT. There were very few produced, but the prices on them are reasonable. I've seen some killer body kits for them (not that the rakish body needs any more).

Im not too sure about 18s on any MR2 though. I dont think bigger than 16s would be a good idea. You'd really fuck your gearing, and probably rub the fender wall.

ctembreull · 08-03-2003, 01:43 PM

One car that I found in that price range (when I was doing my car shopping a couple of months ago) was the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V.

This car is packed - I mean packed - with power. Very powerful and extremely torquey at only 170HP, with a 6-speed manual and a limited-slip differential that really cleans up your power distribution on slick surfaces. It looks like a baseline sedan, but it packs a major wallop for the money. It does have drawbacks: the shifter's hard to navigate without a flashlight and a map. I don't think it has a speed lockout, so you can theoretically find yourself heading for reverse when trying to grab high gears. And a lot of the extras aren't cheap. But even at baseline, this car impressed the hell out of me.

Caveat: I didn't buy it. I got the Acura RSX Type-S instead. But the Sentra's a great deal for the price.

mirage · 08-03-2003, 07:42 PM

i say you get a SRT-4... really wait it out and get the extra cash, it will be worth it in the end

Ramega · 08-06-2003, 07:52 PM

I gotta second the SVT Contour or the SVT Focus (have to find a used one). SVT cars rock (I drive a Cobra). The Contour compared favorably to the 3-Series BMW and the Audi A4 in the last review that was done by Car and Driver. The SVT Focus is an awesome pocket rocket.

psykosis · 08-07-2003, 04:31 PM

I suggest any of the following:

SRT-4 Neon:

300ZX TT

Honda S2000

Mini

1991 Acura NSX (check nsxprime.com for important info). If you look hard enough, you can find a 91 for $20-25k.

07-07-2003, 10:30 AM	#42 (permalink)
89transam Psycho Location: Central California	I think the overall consesus is..... Dont buy a new car, you can afford a much better vehicle no matter what you buy if it is slightly used. __________________ I'd rather be rich than stupid.

07-11-2003, 05:41 PM	#51 (permalink)
zcwrx Ouchie Location: USA	used wrx. I got my '02 for less than 18k w/ 5000 miles on it....w00t. Last edited by zcwrx; 07-11-2003 at 05:44 PM..

07-22-2003, 08:36 PM	#61 (permalink)
Stinky Pee Crazy Location: In My Pants	That much power in a neon will only serve to crack the block faster, and wind-blast even more paint off sooner. __________________ Eat my fuck.

07-22-2003, 08:38 PM	#62 (permalink)
Stinky Pee Crazy Location: In My Pants	Oh yeah, don't get the toyota: perverts drive those 'cause they can still convince 17 year old girls it's a porche. __________________ Eat my fuck.

07-22-2003, 10:11 PM	#63 (permalink)
Edvard_Grieg Upright Location: Denver	Hmmm.... Sleepers: Ford SVT Contour (Friend has one and it kicks ass) Lincoln Mark VIII (Basically a cobra engine and tuning in lincoln tails ) If you are looking at a kit car potentially, check out www.factoryfive.com they will send you free info (got mine in a week) The kits are built off of the 5.0 Mustang into Shelby replicas. They perform like none other and are sexy as hell __________________ Do be do be do

07-07-2003, 12:20 PM	#43 (permalink)
inbeastic Upright	Get a 97-01 Prelude. Practical with enough speed and handling, can be had for less than 15K.

07-07-2003, 05:36 PM	#44 (permalink)
digital-linx Upright	Look for a 1990-92 Porsche 944 S2 Turbo - they are fast as hell and turn more heads than the cheap trashy jap cars out there. imo of course...

07-07-2003, 10:39 PM	#45 (permalink)
jhk451 Upright	is a used wrx totally out of the question? i'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet, 'cause that car with factory specs is a quick car.

07-09-2003, 10:13 AM	#47 (permalink)
PoteMatic Registered User	89transam what kind of car is it?

07-09-2003, 02:06 PM	#48 (permalink)
Bigheadcraig Upright	I'd definitely go with the SRT-4. They're fast as hell, and they go for about 20k, and the only option is side curtain airbags, everything else is standard, so there's not a whole lot of crap to jack up the price. This car is an amazing deal.

07-09-2003, 04:52 PM	#49 (permalink)
stvdman Upright Location: Providence, RI	ARe you looking at both used and new cars or just one or the other???

07-09-2003, 07:36 PM	#50 (permalink)
Scott Tilted	Stvdman, really either. Still haven't made a firm decision. I've kinda ran into a bit of bills I need to pay that I wasn't expecting, so my new car has been postponed a bit. Still looking, though Hard to beat that Mr2, I'm really in love with that car.

07-12-2003, 02:35 PM	#52 (permalink)
zcwrx Ouchie Location: USA	Here is a pic.

07-13-2003, 07:03 PM	#54 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo AWD I've seen them go for 15k on ebay. Spend the extra 3k on a boost controller.

07-15-2003, 07:20 PM	#55 (permalink)
Stare At The Sun Eh? Location: Somewhere over the rainbow	If you havent bought it yet, get a 90-94 Eclipse/talon/laser That is turbo charged w/ AWD, can be had for under 5k, easy, then plunk about 7g's into mods, and run 10's daily. The 4g63 is one bulletproof engine, and its the same one thats in the EVO. I think you'd be impressed with them. Plus, w/ the left over 5k or so, either save for possible repairs, or go get REALLY drunk, and get lots of puntang.

07-17-2003, 03:19 AM	#57 (permalink)
puddlesmilo Psycho	93-95 RX-7 Generation 3 They're way cool looking (stock), fairly rare. I've had one for ten years. If you leave it stock it last a real long time. If you mod it and do the research it will also last. The reason people say that they're unreliable is they didn't do their homework. Stuck a loud exhaust on it etc and the engine will pop.

07-18-2003, 01:18 PM	#58 (permalink)
EleqTrizi'T Insane	Tiburon V6's have extremely weak blocks. Very poor for performance upgrading. For your money, you can get a cheap Turbo Eclipse (the 1990-94's are built better, not as cool looking) and spend wads of dough on parts. For new, I'm also partial to the Neon. The Mopar performance upgrades are great. Stage 1 is like $399 and puts the Neon at 250hp. <img src="http://www.thestardock.com/imgs/personal/semaias/images/IM001243.jpg"> <img src="http://www.thestardock.com/imgs/personal/semaias/images/IM001133.jpg">

07-21-2003, 06:49 AM	#59 (permalink)
Das Eighty Upright	A Neon will always be a Neon. I don't really mean to be ripping on that car, but, years of production have led that car to be bought buy people who really can't get anything better and is also a car that is considered "cheap" Interior on the new Neon is shabby too. If this is going to be your first car, then don't buy a new one. Try and find yourself a nice Mark 3 Volkswagen GTI VR6, you can get them anywhere from 7 to 13 thousand with less than 50 or 60K miles. Excellent cars, and engines that will last you for a LONG time. My .02

07-23-2003, 12:39 AM	#65 (permalink)
newman Upright Location: San Marcos, CA	Very surprised no one mentioned it, but for gods sake... 1991+ Nissan 300zx Twin Turbo. They run around 8-14k with low miles. Stock 300HP. Awesome awesome car. For next to nothing you can have them running 450+HP. SRT-4 is also an awesome car. My input. __________________ -woot-

07-24-2003, 07:23 AM	#66 (permalink)
trigger123 Upright	for something new, Saturn is releasing a supercharged 200hp version of the quad coupe this fall called "redline" I think. Cool design, no door dings, and warranty.

07-24-2003, 02:53 PM	#67 (permalink)
doctorphibes Crazy	I can't believe someone actually recommended a V6 Mustang. What are you, a dental hygienist? Anyway, the Miata gets a ton of flack, something about being a "chick car" or whatever, but it's hard to beat for the money. Considering the other cars in the class/price range, I'd take a RWD roadster with an optional 6-speed and the handling of much more expensive cars any day.

07-24-2003, 04:29 PM	#68 (permalink)
sp00g3 Upright Location: Bluegrass	[QUOTE]Originally posted by VirFighter [B]If you like the MR2 have you looked at the miata? Not sure if are aware or not but the MR2 has only slightly more storage space than a motorcycle. I know that practicality isn't really an issue with sports cars but at least the miata can store an overnight bag. [QUOTE] Miata however costs 23k+ and I think the MR2 looks better. __________________ They're all gonna laugh at you!

07-24-2003, 05:18 PM	#69 (permalink)
pezking4 Crazy Location: NC	Finding a decent, low mileage 300zx TT that hasn't been beaten to death can be hard. But if you do find one, grab it!

07-27-2003, 10:45 PM	#70 (permalink)
tupacalypse1622 Tilted	i agree with newman...also the tiburon looks pretty nice and the aftermarket seems to be supporting it quite well....dont get the mr2...looks like a poor man's wannabe porsche __________________ "I do not propose to discuss my love life. I will say that I still can't get over how women are shaped, and that I will go to my grave wanting to pet their butts and boobs." -Kurt Vonnegut

07-28-2003, 12:20 AM	#71 (permalink)
newman Upright Location: San Marcos, CA	Tiburons really aren't bad looking, and they perform better than you'd think, but it's a Hyundai I have nothing against the MR2, I like the looks of them. Just throwing out ideas really. 3rd gen Mazda Rx-7's look awesome and can be had for 14k or less, you'd just have to get a factory rebuild on them for ~$1,500 at around ~80,000 miles and they're good to go for another 100k miles if you treat it right. __________________ -woot-

07-28-2003, 01:34 AM	#72 (permalink)
The.Lunatic Psycho Location: Somewhere just beyond the realm of sanity...	That is a nice amount of cash. Are you buying it straight up? Or are you making a down payment then finacing it? Regardless, I'm not sure what kinda car you want. But I gurantee a Camero will get you the pussay! However, If i were you i would go with your first instinct and get the MR2 140 hp isn't much, but it won't break either. really small block engines like that one generally hold together forever and ever. Toyotas also have excelent reputations. I don't think i'd put the body kit on it. Use that spare money to add some nice speakers and an amp in there. Cars are kinda like you IF you look good on the outside they don't mind getting it, but if its trick on the inside they'll love it and it will reflect on you. Then again thats a very materialistc aproach, but hey i think you'd like that car.

07-28-2003, 09:05 AM	#73 (permalink)
Caser Tilted Location: langley	why dont u grab a prelude or integra??? those r sporty cars that have so much u can do to them __________________ ( . Y . )

07-28-2003, 05:13 PM	#75 (permalink)
theguyondacouch salmon? Location: Outside Providence	pinto wagon with a small block chevy __________________ "Lick my frozen metal ass!"

07-31-2003, 01:29 PM	#76 (permalink)
32v4c Upright	You're probably aware, but the 2nd gen MR2 turbo was an amazing car. If you can find one in your area in decent condition GET IT. There were very few produced, but the prices on them are reasonable. I've seen some killer body kits for them (not that the rakish body needs any more). Im not too sure about 18s on any MR2 though. I dont think bigger than 16s would be a good idea. You'd really fuck your gearing, and probably rub the fender wall.

08-03-2003, 01:43 PM	#77 (permalink)
ctembreull Crazy Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA, Earth	One car that I found in that price range (when I was doing my car shopping a couple of months ago) was the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V. This car is packed - I mean packed - with power. Very powerful and extremely torquey at only 170HP, with a 6-speed manual and a limited-slip differential that really cleans up your power distribution on slick surfaces. It looks like a baseline sedan, but it packs a major wallop for the money. It does have drawbacks: the shifter's hard to navigate without a flashlight and a map. I don't think it has a speed lockout, so you can theoretically find yourself heading for reverse when trying to grab high gears. And a lot of the extras aren't cheap. But even at baseline, this car impressed the hell out of me. Caveat: I didn't buy it. I got the Acura RSX Type-S instead. But the Sentra's a great deal for the price. __________________ Mac "If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!

08-03-2003, 07:42 PM	#78 (permalink)
mirage Upright	i say you get a SRT-4... really wait it out and get the extra cash, it will be worth it in the end

08-06-2003, 07:52 PM	#79 (permalink)
Ramega Crazy	I gotta second the SVT Contour or the SVT Focus (have to find a used one). SVT cars rock (I drive a Cobra). The Contour compared favorably to the 3-Series BMW and the Audi A4 in the last review that was done by Car and Driver. The SVT Focus is an awesome pocket rocket.

08-07-2003, 04:31 PM	#80 (permalink)
psykosis Tilted Location: Under a shitpatty in the field of life	I suggest any of the following: SRT-4 Neon: 300ZX TT Honda S2000 Mini 1991 Acura NSX (check nsxprime.com for important info). If you look hard enough, you can find a 91 for $20-25k. __________________ One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching... Last edited by psykosis; 08-07-2003 at 04:33 PM..