Does buying a new hybrid vehicle actually save you money? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Painted · 03-25-2007, 08:43 PM

...as opposed to buying a used vehicle?

Let's say you can buy a nice 2001 Honda Accord for $5000. Not everyone has $5 grand laying around, so probably going to need a relatively minor loan. No problem. It'll just increase your credit score. Major repairs at 70,000 miles? Maybe some, but not many, especially for a Honda. I would give it 50,000 miles, at which point something engine related may be needed. $2000, then it's set for at least another 50,000 miles. Don't worry, it'll all tie together later.

Or, you can buy a new Toyota Prius. $22,000, but gets 55-60 MPG, compared to the Accord's ~30 MPG. Definately going to need financing. Again with the credit scores, but this time the payments are likely to be substatially larger and over a longer period of time. Yet, it's almost improbable that you would need any major servicing in the next 100,000 miles.

Now the part where the calculator comes in. 100,000 miles divided by 30 (MPG) equals 3333 gallons of fuel. 3333 gallons of fuel times the average of $2.85 for gas (around here anyways) equals $9,500. So, total cost of buying a Honda Accord and running it for 100,000 miles is roughly $16,500.

The Prius. I feel that I was generous with the MPG of the Accord, so I will be with the Prius. 100,000 miles divided by 60 MPG is 1666 gallons of fuel. So, to make this quick, that's half the amount of the Accord, which would make $4,750. Total cost would be $26,750 for buying a Toyota Prius and running it for 100,000 miles.

Although I have made many errors and left out many factors, I believe my basic findings will get through unharmed. I concur that you may save money by purchasing a hybrid vehicle over another new vehicle, however, one does not, for the sake of saving money, save money by purchasing a Hybrid over most used vehicles.

Of course, they've been making these Hybrids for several years now, probably not too hard to find a used one for much less $$ than a new one. And, a used car simply does not give the same pleasure as a new car off the lot.

Thoughts? Reactions? Suggestions? Was I stating the obvious?

dcbullet · 03-25-2007, 09:07 PM

As far as saving money the best way to do it is buy a used, small displacement gas/diesel engine that gets great mileage. There are plenty of them out there.

Buying a new car is never the way to save money. But I think your question relates more to the hybrid vs. ICE discussion. Small displacement ICE is the cheapest for now. As time goes by, hybrids will become more economical, perhaps.

waltert · 03-25-2007, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painted

stating the obvious?

they werent really created for saving money. its more of an environmentally friendly status symbol than anything.

Daniel_ · 03-26-2007, 12:14 PM

You're not comparing like with like.

Compare a new prius with a new accord and your mathematics works in favour of the prius.

ubertuber · 03-26-2007, 12:17 PM

I think Daniel_ is right - especially when you consider the tax credit available in the U.S.

FYI, my 2007 Accord (v4) is getting 30/37 without me trying very hard.

catback · 03-26-2007, 04:32 PM

really looking to save money on gas, get a bicycle...need something gas powered a small engine (50cc) scooter would be next best, need 4 wheels a tiny compact tiny engine car (a geo for example) would be 3rd most gas saving.

desal75 · 03-27-2007, 11:25 AM

With the new 2008 EPA testing procedures I think the Prius will be down to about 48 MPG for highway driving. All cars' rating will suffer but I think the hybrids will decrease the most.

The new tests are supposed to be more like real world driving.

telekinetic · 03-27-2007, 11:43 AM

Getting a Prius as an Environmentally Friendly stance is a rather short sighted opinion. There is a lot of pollution associated with producing the batteries, which are then a toxic hazard once they need to be disposed of. They are also tremendously expensive to replace, with Prius batteries currently weighing in at around $5000, with a known neccessary replacement life of a few years.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't get a hybrid, just at this point, buying one probably won't save you money or have a reduced environmental impact.

Daemon1313 · 03-28-2007, 10:31 AM

Hybrids may or may not save you money it depends on a lot of different things; miles you drive on average, gas prices, type of driving you do, what you're comparing it against, etc.

You're leaving a lot of important details from your math though, like the fact the prius is still worth way more at the end of that time than the accord would be. Cost per mile is hardly a new concept but it takes in to consideration a lot more than mpg. There's maintenance costs, depreciation, reliability, and much more.

If you want a way to check it, edmunds has a great little tool that will break it down for you (for new cars over 5 years).
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/CTOintroController

newtx · 03-28-2007, 07:56 PM

I would go for the the cheaper Honda myself. It will take many years of driving the hybrid to come even close to breaking even. The math gets easy when you are comparing 5 grand and 22 grand. I have 3 Honda Accords which all have over 120k miles and haven't spent $2000 on the engines of all 3 combined. Save your money.

cadre · 03-28-2007, 10:39 PM

They took out all those tax incentives. So no, it's not any cheaper. In fact, hybrids are probablly more expensive in the long run (think maintenance and engine repair).

cyrnel · 03-28-2007, 10:54 PM

Isn't there a certain amount of optimistic/desperate voting going on with hybrid purchases? To me it's a little like buying "made from recycled" products. You do pay a little more but it's part of a larger effort to create demand, eventually improving our choices.

cadre · 03-28-2007, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrnel

Isn't there a certain amount of optimistic/desperate voting going on with hybrid purchases? To me it's a little like buying "made from recycled" products. You do pay a little more but it's part of a larger effort to create demand, eventually improving our choices.

This might be true but that means you're stuck with something that isn't as good as it should be. When the sell decent hybrids or full electrics then maybe I'd think about it but right now consumers are getting the short end of the stick so to speak.

cyrnel · 03-28-2007, 11:52 PM

Certainly, no car is perfect without rose-colored glasses. It's always about compromise.

I'm not about to plunk down $20+K on any current hybrid either. Yet Prius/EV1/etc enthusiasm shows there's a healthy market for eco-friendly vehicles even in their infancy.

ubertuber · 03-29-2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadre

They took out all those tax incentives. So no, it's not any cheaper. In fact, hybrids are probablly more expensive in the long run (think maintenance and engine repair).

Thanks cadre - it turns out that I'm mostly wrong on this one. I work at an accounting firm and I clarified this with one of my partners this morning.

The credit DOES exist, but it varies between cars and seems to be tied to the number either manufactured or sold. It decreases as more cars of a particular make/model are on the road. Since the Prius is so popular, their credit pretty much disappeared last October. On the other hand, something that doesn't sell as well, like an Accord hybrid, or an Escape hybrid would still be eligible. And the credit is no joke - it's a credit, not a deduction. So if you got a $2000 credit, that's sort of like taking 2 grand off the price of the car (plus the financing charges you would have paid on that money over time - after your presumable tax refund). You could also think of this as being like taking an $8000 deduction if you're in the 25% bracket - that's no small thing!

So anyway, I still think that the consensus is right on. An efficient V4 is probably the best bet, and they are making these on extremely reliable models. I hope to get a couple hundred thousand out of my new Honda... I just didn't want my mistake to be misinterpreted by anyone.

EDIT: This article says the Prius is still good for a credit of around $1500, if you buy it soon. I don't know that this amount is large enough to change the logic behind what people have said before though...

The_Jazz · 03-29-2007, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber

The credit DOES exist, but it varies between cars and seems to be tied to the number either manufactured or sold. It decreases as more cars of a particular make/model are on the road. Since the Prius is so popular, their credit pretty much disappeared last October. On the other hand, something that doesn't sell as well, like an Accord hybrid, or an Escape hybrid would still be eligible. And the credit is no joke - it's a credit, not a deduction. So if you got a $2000 credit, that's sort of like taking 2 grand off the price of the car (plus the financing charges you would have paid on that money over time - after your presumable tax refund). You could also think of this as being like taking an $8000 deduction if you're in the 25% bracket - that's no small thing!

One of my best friends lobbies for an environmental organization here in town, and I showed him this thread last night. I was going to post what uber stated, but it probably wouldn't have been as well argued. There's one thing that wasn't stated - the Big 3 automakers are actively trying to get this credit reduced or removed altogether for non-American made hybrids. It's one of the biggest issues on my friend's plate and has been for about 2 years.

ubertuber · 03-29-2007, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

There's one thing that wasn't stated - the Big 3 automakers are actively trying to get this credit reduced or removed altogether for non-American made hybrids. It's one of the biggest issues on my friend's plate and has been for about 2 years.

I didn't know that. I kinda think those guys should focus on making money by selling more cars, and on selling more cars by, you know, making better cars.

The_Jazz · 03-29-2007, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber

I didn't know that. I kinda think those guys should focus on making money by selling more cars, and on selling more cars by, you know, making better cars.

Wow, for an accountant, you don't know much about business. Don't you know that it's not about providing a better product or better service? It's all about running down the competition!

The problem is that Ford has a crappy hybrid in the Escape, GM doesn't have one that's even worth mentioning and Chrysler is in such a big hole that the Germans are considering shitcanning the whole thing. It's really sad that an American industry that used to be the world-innovator has deteriorated to the point that they have to resort to unfair trade practices to sell their product in their own country.

hambone · 03-29-2007, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber

EDIT: This article says the Prius is still good for a credit of around $1500, if you buy it soon. I don't know that this amount is large enough to change the logic behind what people have said before though...

I'm still considering the prius. And yeah, the tax credit is 1500 until April 2nd, so not much more time at all. I think it then gets cut in half.

Plaid13 · 03-30-2007, 06:23 AM

My mom drives a prius and she loves it. For her its about as good as it gets because with her job she drives alot and gets paid for milage. In stop and go traffic the hybred really shows what its good at. But if your driving isnt alot of long distance stop and go i doubt its worth it with the extra cost of the car. Basicly just get something you think you will be happy with. If you dont mind driving a old used car that gets good milage go for it. If you want something new and fancy get a hybred. If your stuck in the middle get a new econamy car thats not a hybred. No matter how you look at it trying to justify buying any brand new car will just give you a headache.

souzafone · 04-02-2007, 03:33 PM

Hybrids today are meant to be a symbol of political and environmental awareness, but they are really throw aways, only good for a limited period of time. It doesn't cost more to be economical, if you don't have the need to ease your guilt. That being said my contribution to global warming is a VW TDI. With the new ULSD fuel (or bio) my car barely stinks, gets 46 mpg if I beat on it, and it's long engine life work for me. The best part is it gets that mileage after being modded.

03-25-2007, 08:43 PM	#1 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	Does buying a new hybrid vehicle actually save you money? ...as opposed to buying a used vehicle? Let's say you can buy a nice 2001 Honda Accord for $5000. Not everyone has $5 grand laying around, so probably going to need a relatively minor loan. No problem. It'll just increase your credit score. Major repairs at 70,000 miles? Maybe some, but not many, especially for a Honda. I would give it 50,000 miles, at which point something engine related may be needed. $2000, then it's set for at least another 50,000 miles. Don't worry, it'll all tie together later. Or, you can buy a new Toyota Prius. $22,000, but gets 55-60 MPG, compared to the Accord's ~30 MPG. Definately going to need financing. Again with the credit scores, but this time the payments are likely to be substatially larger and over a longer period of time. Yet, it's almost improbable that you would need any major servicing in the next 100,000 miles. Now the part where the calculator comes in. 100,000 miles divided by 30 (MPG) equals 3333 gallons of fuel. 3333 gallons of fuel times the average of $2.85 for gas (around here anyways) equals $9,500. So, total cost of buying a Honda Accord and running it for 100,000 miles is roughly $16,500. The Prius. I feel that I was generous with the MPG of the Accord, so I will be with the Prius. 100,000 miles divided by 60 MPG is 1666 gallons of fuel. So, to make this quick, that's half the amount of the Accord, which would make $4,750. Total cost would be $26,750 for buying a Toyota Prius and running it for 100,000 miles. Although I have made many errors and left out many factors, I believe my basic findings will get through unharmed. I concur that you may save money by purchasing a hybrid vehicle over another new vehicle, however, one does not, for the sake of saving money, save money by purchasing a Hybrid over most used vehicles. Of course, they've been making these Hybrids for several years now, probably not too hard to find a used one for much less $$ than a new one. And, a used car simply does not give the same pleasure as a new car off the lot. Thoughts? Reactions? Suggestions? Was I stating the obvious? __________________ I came across a nice rack at the department store

03-26-2007, 12:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	You're not comparing like with like. Compare a new prius with a new accord and your mathematics works in favour of the prius. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

03-26-2007, 12:17 PM	#5 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	I think Daniel_ is right - especially when you consider the tax credit available in the U.S. FYI, my 2007 Accord (v4) is getting 30/37 without me trying very hard. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

03-27-2007, 11:25 AM	#7 (permalink)
desal75 Psycho Location: Western New York	With the new 2008 EPA testing procedures I think the Prius will be down to about 48 MPG for highway driving. All cars' rating will suffer but I think the hybrids will decrease the most. The new tests are supposed to be more like real world driving. __________________ The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

03-27-2007, 11:43 AM	#8 (permalink)
telekinetic zomgomgomgomgomgomg Location: Fauxenix, Azerona	Getting a Prius as an Environmentally Friendly stance is a rather short sighted opinion. There is a lot of pollution associated with producing the batteries, which are then a toxic hazard once they need to be disposed of. They are also tremendously expensive to replace, with Prius batteries currently weighing in at around $5000, with a known neccessary replacement life of a few years. I'm not saying that you shouldn't get a hybrid, just at this point, buying one probably won't save you money or have a reduced environmental impact. __________________ twisted no more

03-25-2007, 09:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
dcbullet Upright	As far as saving money the best way to do it is buy a used, small displacement gas/diesel engine that gets great mileage. There are plenty of them out there. Buying a new car is never the way to save money. But I think your question relates more to the hybrid vs. ICE discussion. Small displacement ICE is the cheapest for now. As time goes by, hybrids will become more economical, perhaps.

03-26-2007, 04:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
catback Psycho Location: North America	really looking to save money on gas, get a bicycle...need something gas powered a small engine (50cc) scooter would be next best, need 4 wheels a tiny compact tiny engine car (a geo for example) would be 3rd most gas saving.

03-28-2007, 10:31 AM	#9 (permalink)
Daemon1313 Crazy Location: Atlanta	Hybrids may or may not save you money it depends on a lot of different things; miles you drive on average, gas prices, type of driving you do, what you're comparing it against, etc. You're leaving a lot of important details from your math though, like the fact the prius is still worth way more at the end of that time than the accord would be. Cost per mile is hardly a new concept but it takes in to consideration a lot more than mpg. There's maintenance costs, depreciation, reliability, and much more. If you want a way to check it, edmunds has a great little tool that will break it down for you (for new cars over 5 years). http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/CTOintroController __________________ A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

03-28-2007, 07:56 PM	#10 (permalink)
newtx Addict	I would go for the the cheaper Honda myself. It will take many years of driving the hybrid to come even close to breaking even. The math gets easy when you are comparing 5 grand and 22 grand. I have 3 Honda Accords which all have over 120k miles and haven't spent $2000 on the engines of all 3 combined. Save your money.

03-28-2007, 10:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
cadre The Worst Influence Location: Arizona	They took out all those tax incentives. So no, it's not any cheaper. In fact, hybrids are probablly more expensive in the long run (think maintenance and engine repair). __________________ My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.

03-28-2007, 10:54 PM	#12 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Isn't there a certain amount of optimistic/desperate voting going on with hybrid purchases? To me it's a little like buying "made from recycled" products. You do pay a little more but it's part of a larger effort to create demand, eventually improving our choices. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

03-28-2007, 11:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Certainly, no car is perfect without rose-colored glasses. It's always about compromise. I'm not about to plunk down $20+K on any current hybrid either. Yet Prius/EV1/etc enthusiasm shows there's a healthy market for eco-friendly vehicles even in their infancy. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

03-30-2007, 06:23 AM	#20 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	My mom drives a prius and she loves it. For her its about as good as it gets because with her job she drives alot and gets paid for milage. In stop and go traffic the hybred really shows what its good at. But if your driving isnt alot of long distance stop and go i doubt its worth it with the extra cost of the car. Basicly just get something you think you will be happy with. If you dont mind driving a old used car that gets good milage go for it. If you want something new and fancy get a hybred. If your stuck in the middle get a new econamy car thats not a hybred. No matter how you look at it trying to justify buying any brand new car will just give you a headache.

04-02-2007, 03:33 PM	#21 (permalink)
souzafone Insane	Hybrids today are meant to be a symbol of political and environmental awareness, but they are really throw aways, only good for a limited period of time. It doesn't cost more to be economical, if you don't have the need to ease your guilt. That being said my contribution to global warming is a VW TDI. With the new ULSD fuel (or bio) my car barely stinks, gets 46 mpg if I beat on it, and it's long engine life work for me. The best part is it gets that mileage after being modded.