Discuss book ‘Koran: Forbid or Rewrite?’ - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dewanand · 07-10-2011, 06:28 AM

Topic: Discuss book ‘Koran: Forbid or Rewrite?’

Namaste Friends,

Koran: Forbid or Rewrite? A Guide for Peaceful De-Islamicization provides an inside look into the Muslim religion. Raised as a Muslim, Hindu writer Dewanand answers many of the questions asked about the religion. His book is written to commemorate the Islamic attack on the Twin Towers 10 years ago, and to reconsider how best to tackle terrorism.

Why is the Koran the deeper abstract cause of terrorism, and what can Muslims and non-Muslims do about it? How can we help liberate Muslims from medieval ways of thinking? What is a real Muslim and how should we define an anti-Muslim? “I wanted to reform Islam and end the suffering and violence in many Islamic nations. I was raised as a Muslim by my mother and later on I converted to Hinduism,” Dewanand states. His book represents the meeting point of three civilizations: Islam, Western and Hinduism.

dlish · 07-10-2011, 06:43 AM

-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+-
I have edited the OP so that the opening poster is not selling his book. I was inclined to ban him off the bat for spamming, but i thought id give the topic a chance since it may actually be interesting.

dewanand, if you decide to advertise here again, you will be banned

The_Jazz · 07-10-2011, 06:48 AM

I'm inclined to make it a point to never read a book written by a big enough asshole that he's going to spam a message board with it. It must not be very well written if this is the best press he can manage.

dlish · 07-10-2011, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dewanand

Topic: Discuss book ‘Koran: Forbid or Rewrite?’

Namaste Friends,

Koran: Forbid or Rewrite? A Guide for Peaceful De-Islamicization provides an inside look into the Muslim religion. Raised as a Muslim, Hindu writer Dewanand answers many of the questions asked about the religion. His book is written to commemorate the Islamic attack on the Twin Towers 10 years ago, and to reconsider how best to tackle terrorism.

It wasnt an 'islamic attack'. Islam didnt attack the towers...muslims did. There is a stark difference. Islam is an ideology and cant attack buildings.

As far as releasing books to comemorate the 10 year anniversary of a dispicable act, i think its a low blow that someone would try and make money at the expense of peoples suffering, but someone's got to do it right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dewanand

Why is the Koran the deeper abstract cause of terrorism, and what can Muslims and non-Muslims do about it? How can we help liberate Muslims from medieval ways of thinking? .

is the Quran the cause of terrorism? If that is the case, why arent more muslims terrorists? Did Hitler act in the name of the church and the Bible? I think not.

i really do hope the OP coes come back. Im interested to see how he can liberate me from my faith, because apparently im still stuck in the 7th century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dewanand

What is a real Muslim and how should we define an anti-Muslim? “I wanted to reform Islam and end the suffering and violence in many Islamic nations. I was raised as a Muslim by my mother and later on I converted to Hinduism,” Dewanand states. His book represents the meeting point of three civilizations: Islam, Western and Hinduism.

you want to know what a real muslim is? its people like me, who work their butts off every day for the sake of their families and provide a decent meal on the table. People like me who want peace, solitude and understanding between humankind. People like me who accept and is accepted amongst muslim and non muslim peers. People like me who respect, share and discuss other peoples view points, and who appreciates open communication between all faiths and all walks of life. Thats what a muslim is. Normal every day people who dont want war, famine, poverty or death on their doorsteps.

I dont need you to tell me what a real muslim is, or what an anti muslim is. Those are just overused buzzwords that you use for your self stimulation when selling your book. We're all just human trying to get by without having to get labelled and harassed by people such as yourselves who think that they need to save muslims from themselves.

I think your books sounds like a mish-mash of rambling and incoherent thoughts to be honest. Trying to fuse Islam, Hinduism and 'western' together for an opportunistic grab to comemorate a massacre is as classy as a stripper in spider stockings and fake fur.

mixedmedia · 07-10-2011, 07:51 AM

If it weren't so sad and pathetic, someone using divisiveness to bring about peace and unity would be amusing. I don't know how it is that folks can believe stuff like "if it weren't for <insert broad generalization based on race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, etc.> we (the good people) would be free from <insert bad event>" and not see the inner perversity and ugliness of their own thinking and not relate it back to the same kind of ugly, perverse thinking that led to their own irrational biases. Prejudice is tricky and circular. That's why people so often don't realize when they are practicing it.

Daniel_ · 07-10-2011, 08:52 AM

Hmmmm.

Dlish, you know the logic here...

Some people from group X did thing Y, therefore all people from group X are in favour of Y.

Strange Famous · 07-10-2011, 10:57 AM

If I wrote a book I would like to think I could talk about it here.

On the issue of Islam and Violence, it is not as black and white as the OP makes out in my opinion, but I also think a lot of Muslims and Western liberals duck the issue.

Of course there are Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Atheirst nutcases.

But in American the Christian nutcases are people like the Westboro Baptists

In Pakistan there are nutcases hanging rape victims out in the countryside, and in Saudi there are nutcases refusing to let female pupils flee a burning building with their faces uncovered.

Yes, you have to consider the context

Yes, you have to understand why the issues of religious violence are given high prominence in the Western media when they involve Islam.

But... yes, women who are raped have been executed for this "crime" in rural Pakistan and in Saudi in the last couple of years by the state. Thats a reality, and Islam as a global movement needs to face up to this and address it rather than hiding behind the claim that "these people dont represent us or our believes"

The Westboro Baptist church dont represent me, but they arent carrying out executions.

There is a significant and powerful minority movement in Islam that advocates violence against innocent people, the repression and abuse of women, and preaches hate to non believers. I am neither claiming that there are no human rights abuses in Western countries, nor that I believe these beliefs truly represent Islam - but I recognise that many crimes are committed in the name of Allah today.

Another example, Jerry Springer the Opera vs the Muhammad cartoons

in the UK the portrayal of Jesus in that stage show attracted a nationwide movement by Christians. The result was that they handed in a strongly worded letter to the people who ran the show and encouraged people to boycot it and asked the state to prosecute under blasphemy laws.

The Muhammad cartoons attracted death threats, arson, murder.

_

Were I live now, I have a lot of Indian mates, and I appreciate there are a lot strong and sometimes volatile feelings with regards to Pakistan and Islam. I dont think that changes the fact that the Islamic community does have serious issues with radicalism and violent religious propoganda preached by some leaders.

Whether asking whether to rewrite or destroy the holy book of Islam is a helpful way to start the debate is maybe another question, but there should be a debate.

dlish · 07-10-2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

If I wrote a book I would like to think I could talk about it here.

On the issue of Islam and Violence, it is not as black and white as the OP makes out in my opinion, but I also think a lot of Muslims and Western liberals duck the issue.

Of course there are Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Atheirst nutcases.

But in American the Christian nutcases are people like the Westboro Baptists

In Pakistan there are nutcases hanging rape victims out in the countryside, and in Saudi there are nutcases refusing to let female pupils flee a burning building with their faces uncovered.

Yes, you have to consider the context

Yes, you have to understand why the issues of religious violence are given high prominence in the Western media when they involve Islam.

But... yes, women who are raped have been executed for this "crime" in rural Pakistan and in Saudi in the last couple of years by the state. Thats a reality, and Islam as a global movement needs to face up to this and address it rather than hiding behind the claim that "these people dont represent us or our believes"

The Westboro Baptist church dont represent me, but they arent carrying out executions.

There is a significant and powerful minority movement in Islam that advocates violence against innocent people, the repression and abuse of women, and preaches hate to non believers. I am neither claiming that there are no human rights abuses in Western countries, nor that I believe these beliefs truly represent Islam - but I recognise that many crimes are committed in the name of Allah today.

Another example, Jerry Springer the Opera vs the Muhammad cartoons

in the UK the portrayal of Jesus in that stage show attracted a nationwide movement by Christians. The result was that they handed in a strongly worded letter to the people who ran the show and encouraged people to boycot it and asked the state to prosecute under blasphemy laws.

The Muhammad cartoons attracted death threats, arson, murder.

_

Were I live now, I have a lot of Indian mates, and I appreciate there are a lot strong and sometimes volatile feelings with regards to Pakistan and Islam. I dont think that changes the fact that the Islamic community does have serious issues with radicalism and violent religious propoganda preached by some leaders.

Whether asking whether to rewrite or destroy the holy book of Islam is a helpful way to start the debate is maybe another question, but there should be a debate.

if you wrote a book, you could talk about it here. but the OP wanted to just sell his book here by cutting and pasting his preface. that's why i edited out the hard sell with the website and left everything else. the OP is welcome to re-join the thread and the discussion without linking to his website.

Violence by christians isnt flagged as as violence in the name of Christianity, so why is violence by muslims flagged as being carried out in the name of islam? Based on the wording, the OP would have you believe that Islam ordered the attacks on the twin towers. To that end, no body denies that islam has some work to do, but most of their issues are issues that are at least a result of the political systems they run. This is why i see the arab uprisings are a breath of fresh air.

SF, you mentioned isolated incidents in pakistan a few times and saudi, two countries who have repressive regimes who would rather an uneducated mass than a forward thinking one and in no way represents a large % of muslims.... which was really my point, even within those societies there are 'normal' muslims who want nothing to do with honour killings and want to live normal lives, have a family and a backyard and a tree house... i think you get my point.

I'd like to highlight that Islam came to the arabian peninsula during a time when the arabs viewed women as a shame and would bury their baby daughters alive. it was a dark period in arab history, so portraying islam as purely anti-women in the light of pakistani/saudi brutality is skewed at best.

Crimes commited in the name of Allah are not necesarily ordained by Allah.

Strange Famous · 07-10-2011, 11:17 PM

America commits human rights abuses in the illegal prison camp they have in Cuba, but they do not do it in the name of Jehova.

Russian government is very corrupt, but not in the name of Jesus.

The UK illegally imprisoned without trial ethnic Irish in the 70's, but they never claimed this was a policy ordained by God.
_

The fact that a significant number of people who call themselves Muslim commit violent acts which they claim are justified by Islam, including the nation state of Saudi in an issue. The difference is that the abuses of human rights by Russia, the US, the UK are not done in the name of a religion or under the banner of religion. The abuses in Saudi or Iran often are.

I would say again that the majority of ordinary muslims cannot wash their hands of the violent streak in their religious community.

There is a sensitivity in Islam which does not exist in other major religions (see the reaction to the Danish cartoons compared to reaction to blasphemy against other religious figures).

I would say that difference between the saved and the non belivers is more stressed in Islam than in any other religion I know of, and this is a fundamental issue within Islamic belief that creates hostility.

It is the responsibility of the majority of muslims to reclaim their religion from the nutcases who support the 9/11 attacks or the abuse of women or violence against non believers (I wouldnt include honour killings in this, because this is a social issue)

It is also the responsibility of majority of Christians to reclaim their religion from the nutcases in rural parts Nigeria or other western african countries who still execute witches and kill disabled children.

Neither religion can afford to turn their backs on the ugliness that is a part of their community, neither can just wash their hands of it and say "oh well, *I* dont believe in things like that, thats just the extremists...."

Baraka_Guru · 07-11-2011, 04:47 AM

All of this sounds like blaming the wrong thing. Let's blame Islam for violent Muslims. So let's also blame Christianity for violent Christians.

We still are way overdue rewriting the Bible after the Crusades. At least it will give us a chance to correct all the errors and inconsistencies.

The problem isn't with Islam of Christianity; it's with religion more generally, and with culture/society more broadly.

Changing books won't change much regarding issues of violence. It's not the book that makes people violent.

It's ignorance and delusion.

And the idea of forbidding Islam/the Koran is ridiculous. If you're going to essentially ban one religion, why not ban them all? Only then will you actually foment change. Though I'm not sure this is a route I'd like for us to go.

Strange Famous · 07-11-2011, 09:40 AM

I agree that proposing to rewrite the holy books is not sensible.

I certainly would have plenty to say about the approval of violence and slave taking in the Bible before I was in the position to comment on other people's religions.

But within the church itself, certainly churches can be held to account for their violent intrepretation or preaching of religions that in essence peaceful.

ASU2003 · 07-11-2011, 08:35 PM

I know there is some anti-Islam feelings in India due to Pakistan being on their border and the Kasmir region, but it sounds like he wants to start another 'crusade' to destroy Islam (or change their society).

I'm not going to say that there aren't a few things I would like seen changed in that part of the world, but I know that I could travel there in the 'good' Islamic countries and not have a problem. So, I doubt it is the religion, it is some countries interpretation that I have a problem with. But, as an outsider, I have no say in the matter. The other Islamic countries need to lead the way and prove that they can lead great lives and still allow some greater freedoms.

The biggest threat to the Islam are MTV, the Internet, and porn. Economic (oil) isolation would be another one, but that isn't happening (not for my lack of trying). Also seeing how the rest of the world lives might help push some of them to change their views on some of the practices. But, Christianity is having a harder time modernizing than Islam is so far.

07-10-2011, 06:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
dewanand Upright Location: delft	Discuss book ‘Koran: Forbid or Rewrite?’ Topic: Discuss book ‘Koran: Forbid or Rewrite?’ Namaste Friends, Koran: Forbid or Rewrite? A Guide for Peaceful De-Islamicization provides an inside look into the Muslim religion. Raised as a Muslim, Hindu writer Dewanand answers many of the questions asked about the religion. His book is written to commemorate the Islamic attack on the Twin Towers 10 years ago, and to reconsider how best to tackle terrorism. Why is the Koran the deeper abstract cause of terrorism, and what can Muslims and non-Muslims do about it? How can we help liberate Muslims from medieval ways of thinking? What is a real Muslim and how should we define an anti-Muslim? “I wanted to reform Islam and end the suffering and violence in many Islamic nations. I was raised as a Muslim by my mother and later on I converted to Hinduism,” Dewanand states. His book represents the meeting point of three civilizations: Islam, Western and Hinduism. Last edited by dlish; 07-10-2011 at 06:34 AM..

07-10-2011, 06:48 AM	#3 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I'm inclined to make it a point to never read a book written by a big enough asshole that he's going to spam a message board with it. It must not be very well written if this is the best press he can manage. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

07-10-2011, 07:51 AM	#5 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	If it weren't so sad and pathetic, someone using divisiveness to bring about peace and unity would be amusing. I don't know how it is that folks can believe stuff like "if it weren't for <insert broad generalization based on race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, etc.> we (the good people) would be free from <insert bad event>" and not see the inner perversity and ugliness of their own thinking and not relate it back to the same kind of ugly, perverse thinking that led to their own irrational biases. Prejudice is tricky and circular. That's why people so often don't realize when they are practicing it. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

07-10-2011, 08:52 AM	#6 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	Hmmmm. Dlish, you know the logic here... Some people from group X did thing Y, therefore all people from group X are in favour of Y. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

07-10-2011, 10:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	If I wrote a book I would like to think I could talk about it here. On the issue of Islam and Violence, it is not as black and white as the OP makes out in my opinion, but I also think a lot of Muslims and Western liberals duck the issue. Of course there are Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Atheirst nutcases. But in American the Christian nutcases are people like the Westboro Baptists In Pakistan there are nutcases hanging rape victims out in the countryside, and in Saudi there are nutcases refusing to let female pupils flee a burning building with their faces uncovered. Yes, you have to consider the context Yes, you have to understand why the issues of religious violence are given high prominence in the Western media when they involve Islam. But... yes, women who are raped have been executed for this "crime" in rural Pakistan and in Saudi in the last couple of years by the state. Thats a reality, and Islam as a global movement needs to face up to this and address it rather than hiding behind the claim that "these people dont represent us or our believes" The Westboro Baptist church dont represent me, but they arent carrying out executions. There is a significant and powerful minority movement in Islam that advocates violence against innocent people, the repression and abuse of women, and preaches hate to non believers. I am neither claiming that there are no human rights abuses in Western countries, nor that I believe these beliefs truly represent Islam - but I recognise that many crimes are committed in the name of Allah today. Another example, Jerry Springer the Opera vs the Muhammad cartoons in the UK the portrayal of Jesus in that stage show attracted a nationwide movement by Christians. The result was that they handed in a strongly worded letter to the people who ran the show and encouraged people to boycot it and asked the state to prosecute under blasphemy laws. The Muhammad cartoons attracted death threats, arson, murder. _ Were I live now, I have a lot of Indian mates, and I appreciate there are a lot strong and sometimes volatile feelings with regards to Pakistan and Islam. I dont think that changes the fact that the Islamic community does have serious issues with radicalism and violent religious propoganda preached by some leaders. Whether asking whether to rewrite or destroy the holy book of Islam is a helpful way to start the debate is maybe another question, but there should be a debate. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

07-10-2011, 11:17 PM	#9 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	America commits human rights abuses in the illegal prison camp they have in Cuba, but they do not do it in the name of Jehova. Russian government is very corrupt, but not in the name of Jesus. The UK illegally imprisoned without trial ethnic Irish in the 70's, but they never claimed this was a policy ordained by God. _ The fact that a significant number of people who call themselves Muslim commit violent acts which they claim are justified by Islam, including the nation state of Saudi in an issue. The difference is that the abuses of human rights by Russia, the US, the UK are not done in the name of a religion or under the banner of religion. The abuses in Saudi or Iran often are. I would say again that the majority of ordinary muslims cannot wash their hands of the violent streak in their religious community. There is a sensitivity in Islam which does not exist in other major religions (see the reaction to the Danish cartoons compared to reaction to blasphemy against other religious figures). I would say that difference between the saved and the non belivers is more stressed in Islam than in any other religion I know of, and this is a fundamental issue within Islamic belief that creates hostility. It is the responsibility of the majority of muslims to reclaim their religion from the nutcases who support the 9/11 attacks or the abuse of women or violence against non believers (I wouldnt include honour killings in this, because this is a social issue) It is also the responsibility of majority of Christians to reclaim their religion from the nutcases in rural parts Nigeria or other western african countries who still execute witches and kill disabled children. Neither religion can afford to turn their backs on the ugliness that is a part of their community, neither can just wash their hands of it and say "oh well, I dont believe in things like that, thats just the extremists...." __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

07-11-2011, 04:47 AM	#10 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	All of this sounds like blaming the wrong thing. Let's blame Islam for violent Muslims. So let's also blame Christianity for violent Christians. We still are way overdue rewriting the Bible after the Crusades. At least it will give us a chance to correct all the errors and inconsistencies. The problem isn't with Islam of Christianity; it's with religion more generally, and with culture/society more broadly. Changing books won't change much regarding issues of violence. It's not the book that makes people violent. It's ignorance and delusion. And the idea of forbidding Islam/the Koran is ridiculous. If you're going to essentially ban one religion, why not ban them all? Only then will you actually foment change. Though I'm not sure this is a route I'd like for us to go. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 07-11-2011 at 04:51 AM..

07-11-2011, 09:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I agree that proposing to rewrite the holy books is not sensible. I certainly would have plenty to say about the approval of violence and slave taking in the Bible before I was in the position to comment on other people's religions. But within the church itself, certainly churches can be held to account for their violent intrepretation or preaching of religions that in essence peaceful. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

07-11-2011, 08:35 PM	#12 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I know there is some anti-Islam feelings in India due to Pakistan being on their border and the Kasmir region, but it sounds like he wants to start another 'crusade' to destroy Islam (or change their society). I'm not going to say that there aren't a few things I would like seen changed in that part of the world, but I know that I could travel there in the 'good' Islamic countries and not have a problem. So, I doubt it is the religion, it is some countries interpretation that I have a problem with. But, as an outsider, I have no say in the matter. The other Islamic countries need to lead the way and prove that they can lead great lives and still allow some greater freedoms. The biggest threat to the Islam are MTV, the Internet, and porn. Economic (oil) isolation would be another one, but that isn't happening (not for my lack of trying). Also seeing how the rest of the world lives might help push some of them to change their views on some of the practices. But, Christianity is having a harder time modernizing than Islam is so far.