Sage

I did a nutritional analysis with my chiropractor today, and he uses some non-traditional ways to determine nutritional deficiency. Mainly, having one lie down, hold all kinds of different substances (in little bottles) with the right hand right between the breasts, and pushing down on the raised left arm.

I say, I really trust and like my chiropractor. I know he wouldn't do something to me that he doesn't fully understand and trust. Personally, if it works, I don't care. Martel, on the other hand, thinks it's all kinda hooey.

My question is- does anyone know what kind of holistic medicine he's doing? Is there a scientific basis to this kind of treatment or what? I feel like, as long as it works I'm happy, but I would like to know more about it. Where do I start? Asheville is so full of new-age medicine practitioners I don't feel like just asking someone will get me anywhere, as everyone has their own opnions.

So what's your opnion?

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Ustwo

As America becomes a more superstitious nation, we get to see more and more of this, with untested gobbly gook being foisted as science on an undereducated public.

Is quackery, its BS, it has no basis in anything beyond your belief it will help you, and if you are like most people, no amount of logic will dissuade you. You are looking for someone to give you an affirmation and make you feel better about it.

Did you ask him how it works? Did you ask for any studies done in the scientific literature?

One of the common responses is that its biased doctors and evil pharmaceutical companies who try to 'suppress' holistic medicine. What it is is conscientious doctors trying to educate the public vrs the unsubstantiated lies of a 16 BILLION dollar a year industry in the US known as alternative medicine.

Check out this site, do your own research, and figure if its something you feel is worth your money and health. http://www.quackwatch.org/ also check out their http://www.chirobase.org/

Next, I'll tell you how I really feel about it.

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Ustwo

What are you a slot machine? Did you ask why he was doing that? Was your magical chi going into the vials?

As a dentist I know the most important thing is not my skill but being liked by my patients. I know plenty of iffy dentists who do well because they are liked.

Then he should have NO problem explaining it to you. I spend a VERY large part of my day explaining why I do what I do to patients, when I visited a M.D. recently he explained my issues to me quite well and what the treatment would be. This is a Chiropractor, and what he is doing has NOTHING to do with Chiropractic theory, so he better damn well be able to explain why he is doing something he didn't go to school for. It would be like me doing cancer exams. (Edit: I screen for oral cancer all the time now that I think about it, but that is something I was trained and qualified for, I was thinking all other 'traditional' cancer types which are well outside of my field)

Its a nutritional analysis, hes going to tell you to eat right and exercise with some gobbly gook thrown in, of course it will work.

Amen, trust someone who has your best interests at heart.

Its a called a con game, and its even better if the con artists believes in it in terms of convincing you.

Not a lick. Think about it, all you at most gave the vials was some heat from your hands.

Links above.

I know this makes me seem like a be meany asshole (bow Charlatan) but use your own head here. What do you think is happening? If it doesn't make sense and the 'doctor' can't explain it to you in language you understand should you do it?

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Martel

To be fair, let me stick my opinion in here...

I've been with Sage to her chiropractor plenty of times when he was doing plain ol' back-cracky kind of stuff to her and while I was skeptical of the whole thing at first I've seen first-hand how much better she feels after it and I say if paying 20 bucks every month or two (our insurance covers most of it) keeps her feeling good (she used to not be able to walk around the whole mall without getting terrible back and neck pain and general fatigue and now she can outlast me sometimes) then thats great.

Its just some of the other things he does that I don't really buy. One thing this particular chiropractor uses as a test of back nerves and such is to have you hold out your arm and see how hard it is for him to push down on it. Then, if you have nerves that are being compressed in your spine, it will be a lot easier for him to push down when they are being pinched than when they are straight. For example, he demonstrated on me by having me stand with one of my feet on a half-inch thick block of wood. When he pushed down I couldn't hold against it at all, whereas when both of my feet were on the same level I could resist fairly well. So I figure yeah, sure, makes sense, and he could show me exactly what he was doing.

Then he had me hold a vial of water up next to my chest and did the same thing. Supposedly this told him that I was dehydrated, because he could push my arm down. Meanwhile I'm thinking wait a minute, my arm's tired from the last time he did this, plus now my body is not symmetrical (I'm holding something against my chest with one arm and sticking my other one out to the side for him to push on). As far as I can tell (I wasn't with Sage this morning when he did the nutritional whatnot) this is the same thing he did for her.

Now I want to be clear in saying that I support Sage in whatever she feels is the best thing for her to do about her own health, and that if this is what she feels she wants to do then I'm behind her 100%. I am concerned, though, about it. When she told me all that the chiropractor told her I said that it sounded like he didn't say anything she didn't already know (eat less fat and sugar, eat more vegetables) and that I thought selling her a bunch of supplements (especially of things like raw pancreas extract) based on the "hold this bottle and let me push your arm down" technique sounded... well, less than medically justified.

I think what it comes down to for me is that I personally would not be comfortable receiving and carrying out medical/nutritional advice with that "test" as the basis, and I expressed as much to Sage. I don't think any of the things the chiro gave her to take could be harmful, but I do think that they might be unnecessary, and I don't think it's a good idea to be taking a bunch of stuff in pill form that one doesn't need.

Like I said, I'll support whatever she decides. Just wanted to throw in my two cents.

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Anamnesis

Martian

Right. The way I see it, if things like this worked they'd be common practice. My gastroenterologist has never used an 'arm bend' test to determine the nutritive value of my diet and rightly so; his practice is at stake. If he orders a blood test and tells me based on the result that I'm anemic and need an iron supplement in my diet, I'm inclined to trust him. If he could tell me the same thing just by trying to bend my arm, why would he bother sending a sample to the lab?

The medical establishment, including the AMA, hospitals and small practices across the world all have a vested interest in getting you well and keeping you that way. At the end of the day, doctors are running a business; the service they provide is maintenance of your health. Just as it behooves GM or Chrysler to include the latest and greatest in their new automobiles, doctors are best served by using the most effective diagnosis and treatment techniques available to them. If they don't, they'll lose business to someone who will.

So, that being said, why don't you see this being done by nutritionists across the country? That raises a red flag for me right there.

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Charlatan

Interestingly, I agree with Ustwo on this (sadly his delivery still makes him a "meany asshole").

I don't trust the whole holistic, eastern medicine thing. Practitioners of of these sorts of medicine are naive at best, charlatans at worst.

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Willravel

Admittedly, a lot of holistic medicine works as well as a placibo, but occasionally it stumbles on something like penecilin or asprin. Don't discount the whole just because it only occasionally yields results. That being said, I won't try it unless I see the tests that prove it won't make my balls fall off or my head shrink. I also will not ingest eye of newt.

BigBen

Please understand that the Chiropractic field does not hold any credence in my opinion. I think that they are collectively trying to help their patients, but fall short due to bad science.

What we have here is the classic conflict of Evidence Based Medicine (EBM). Scientists must measure things, control for outside influences, hold randomized control trials, et cetera. Holistic medicine (of which chiropractic practitioners belong) takes a general view and looks at the patient from a one-off standpoint. After all, aren't we all just a bit different?

Truth is, chiropractors only clinically treat lower back pain caused by misalignment of the vertebrae. That is the only thing that is scientifically proven in EBM. Everything else they tell you about "Energy Fields", "Pathways", and other things that I have not been exposed to is absolute quackery.


But wait! What if some of that quackery works? People often ignore that point. What if that herbal supplement does nothing, but my body reacts because I am paying attention to it? Who knows?

Please, pretty please, do one thing for me: There is a device that chiropractors use, and I think it is called an "Adjuster". Don't quote me on that. It is a spring loaded blunt object the size of a pen. The chiropractor uses it to jab you in different places, and the reflex of getting jabbed often creates a muscle spasm. Chiropractors say this is a good thing. The use of that device has caused several deaths, due to stroke. The jabbing of the device collapses a blood vessel under the skin, and the resulting clot travels to your brain (or lungs) and kills you. NEVER LET A CHIROPRACTOR COME ANYWHERE NEAR YOU WITH ONE OF THOSE THINGS.

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BigBen

BTW, I take offence to chiropractors calling themselves Doctor.

I would take that social standing away from the group. People are lulled into a false sense of security.

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Toaster126

Wow, I saw hoo-ha in the thread title and thought something completely different was going to be discussed.

As for the actual thread... licensed chiropractors have to go through all sorts of training\classes for the title, and they can help people. This paticular one seems seems to be mixing things that work and quackery.

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maleficent

A few years ago... a friend of mine decided that I was too stressed out (sadly, I'm much more stressed out now) and made an appointment for us to go for Reiki Massages... Laughter is truly good for what ails you - because I never laughed so hard in my entire life.. The practioner - an absolute idiot in love with herself named Madame Anastacia (pronounced Ahnastazzzzzzeeeeah) decided that she could cure my migraines and stress level simply by waving her hands over my head and laying her hands very near my scalp... (downing a bottle of good tequilla would have been cheaper and i would have felt less idiotic)

I waited for Anastacia to do chanting or whatever the hell it was she was suppose to do to drive the evil spirits out of me... Did't work -- I laughed - she said i wasn't a believer so it wouldn't work... She was right... She didn't realize it but she basically said it was all placebo... that if a person beleived it would work - it does... OK -fine... whatever... (the girlfriend of a buddy of mine - for kicks - is a certified reike practioner (to some high level degree) because the idiot that authorized her -- said he could feel her vibes (or whatever) over the internet.... Yah Ok... (insert eyerolling and more laughter here)

Chiropracters CAN perhaps do some good, but they don't fix the problem -- they adjust the problem and you are sucked into constantly going to them - -I'd much rather spend the money and go to a physical therapist and have the problem fixed... Having my back or my neck cracked can't be good in the long term...

I think the mind can go a long way in fixing what ails the body... I've seen people's ailments go away simply because they believed that the alternative treatment they received would work...more power to 'em... But I don't think for one moment that there's anything to what the practioner is doing... it's all mind over matter.

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ubertuber

I'd much rather go to a D.O. or M.D. that was open to alternative treatments. I think that doctors (to a degree) can lose sight of some of the holistic nature of bodily function - but I also wouldn't trust my health to a holistic healer that didn't have medical school under their belt.

Also, you have to admit this bit was funny:

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Sage

Alright, based on what everyone has said, and on what I've been thinking about, I think it would be a good idea to get a second opnion on what was told to me about my general nutrition level. I know it's not that good to begin with. So, what kind of doctor should I see to visiting? I would like to have my body checked to see if I have any kind of nutrition deficiency, pre-diabeties (my dad has diabeties), etc. Do I go to a nutritionist, or what?

I have a good friend at college who is head of the Health and Fitness department, and he knows a *ton* about all this stuff, just can't actually do bloodwork to tell me if something is wrong. I'm thinking about going to see him, just to talk about what my chiropractor said and what he recommended. I *do* agree with the diet plan that my chiropractor recommended- the South Beach diet, as it is basically the same diet that my dad (who is diabetic) has been on at his specalist doctor's advice (low carb, lots of protein, lots of veggies, not a lot of fat).

*Sigh* I just want to be healthy.... I didn't know it would be so hard

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snowy

That's why I go to a D.O. Not only are they as fully trained as a regular M.D., they're also trained in osteopathic manipulation, which I've found very helpful for my back and neck problems.

Take the treatment my D.O. gave me for my back and neck problems, all posture-related:
1) a nutrition program to follow so I could lose weight
2) she sent me to the physical therapist
3) she provided me with osteopathic manipulation until my back/neck improved with the PT

I'd been to M.D.s with this problem before this and all I'd received in return was a demand to lose weight (no help in how to do it) and muscle relaxants. Yeah, real helpful.

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maleficent

Given family history, you might want to see a general practioner - or internist for blood work and to discuss your concerns with him/her. When is the last time you had a complete physical (not counting Gyn visit?) You could then get a referral for a nutritionist but at you age, and being relatively healthy, that might not be necessary.

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JustJess

^^^ Yes, go to an internist. They will give you a physical including blood work and you can start from there.

As for your chiropracter... I wouldn't go back to him if he started paying me for the privilege. I'm sure there are lots of chiros who help people's backs, but when they start to think they have the knowledge to treat any other area, RUN do not walk away. As Ustwo said (*shudder*) I wouldn't ask a dentist if I had cancer or something. Same diff.

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Ustwo

I have to say I'm pleasently surprised by the responses to chiropractic 'therapy' here.

I wasn't going to go into it, nor will I for this, but sometimes it gets frusterating.

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Willravel

During the bird flu outbreak in 1918, holistic clinics only saw a 2% mortality rate, compared to the much higher death rate of traditional medicine (close to 20%). Of course, that's because the bird flu has been around for A LONG TIME, and we've had hundreds of years to perfect madicines for it. Chiropractic 'therapy', on the other hand, is pseudo science. The end.

thingstodo

I think good chiropractors are great (and there are many bad ones that only want to build their practice). I've experienced back problems that doctors couldn't solve short of surgery but some back cracking did the trick. That was 15 years ago and I can still squat 490 these days.

That said, I would go to a nutritionist if I had a nutritional concern. Or a dentist for my teeth. Or a cardiologist for my heart. I think you see a pattern here, right?

This guy sounds like a nut case!

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sprocket

I saw alot of this crap going through massage therapy school. The thing is, lots of these psuedo science quack ideas like polarity therapy, reiki, and the energy testing that was done to you are actually presented in these schools as valid fact. The national exams even test you on some of it. Chinese medicine ideas in particular, chakras, medians, etc. I imagine its the same in chiropractic school. These are government mandated tests you must take in order to be licensed by the way. So even though this stuff has no scientific merit you still must learn much of it to be licensed. Luckily the massage school i want to taught very clinical structural massage that was based on real science and real research, but the quackery still gets mixed in.

A lot of the students are well meaning people, but lack a solid scientific education. They go to school and learn the trade but dont have any knowledge of the scientific method. Spending a couple months surrounded by the quackery with other people who just want to be the best "healer" possible it can be hard not to beleive the bullshit. When your told you have mystical powers to cure diseases simply by waving your hands in teh right place it can be comforting to beleive that.

Now as far as what he was doing when he put the vial of water near you is a tactic used by holistic stores to sell supplements and treatment sessions.. usually something along the lines of chakra realignment therapy. They put different supplement bottles in your hands etc and "test" you to see if you need it, usually by pushing down on your arm. If you resist the push then you dont need the supplement... sometimes its not an arm push, sometimes its pinching something with your fingers. The energy feild given off by those chemicals is supposed to react in a certain way with your energy feild (aura). If your deficient, you will not be able to resist the push as well supposedly. It all boils down to this wishy wash crap of interacting energy feilds, auras, the flow of your chi and chakras.. its hard for me to type this with a straight face, I dont know how people do that for a living:P

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VitaminH

Coming in kind of late, but I'll say as a pharmacist that Ustwo pretty much hit all the nails on the head for my opinions on this as well.

You can't tell jack crap holding a bottle over you and pushing on your arm.

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Sage

Alright, next question- I'm supposed to go for a follow-up in two weeks. I really like the guy as a chiropractor- if it weren't for him I would not be able to walk around for more than fifteen minutes without having to sit down. However, based on what you guys have said (which makes sense to me) I would like to go to a nutritionist or some such instead. What is the best way I can leave off the "holistic thearapy" and not annoy the guy?

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Ustwo

Find a good physical therapist, the guy is a nice guy, maybe he can make your back better (btw thats the ONLY thing that has been proven that chiropractors can help to some degree) but he is still a quack, maybe he is a nice quack, but you are talking about your health.

One thing about Chiropractors is you will never get healed and you will always need to go in for 'adjustments', what you need is someone to find the root of your issue and find a long term fix.

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snowy

I'll echo what Ustwo has said here about the PT. Seeing a physical therapist helped me more than anything with my horrible back problems. Furthermore, if you are interested in manipulation, go see an osteopath. All of them know osteopathic manipulation and most of them are crosstrained in chiropractic. Additionally, they're medical doctors who went to medical school, so when they see a problem, they know who to refer you to.

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divagrrrl

I am a licensed massage therapist, and I lease space in a chiropractic office. I have been seeing the chiropractor there for treatments of various ailments for the past 8 years. Having constant chiropractic care at my disposal for that long, I can tell you... it really does work in the short-term for pain. However, it is then the patient's responsibility to continue to improve the condition so it will not return. In my case, it has meant working out to strengthen my low back and abs, being constantly aware of my posture, and doing a lot of stretching to keep my body supple and strong. When I have flare-ups, or simply over-do it, my chiropractor gives me pretty much instantaneous relief.

She's not all about backs either. I sprained my ankle horribly, 3 times in the space of 8 days, several years ago when I was out of the country. It was so bad that my left tibialis anterior muscle was pulled away from the bone all the way up to my knee. The whole foot was bruised, extremely swollen, and could not bear any weight without excruciating pain... this says a lot, because between track injuries, car accidents, and equestrian injuries, I know a little about pain. Not even an AC joint separation with torn rotator cuff hurt as bad as this did.

I of course when to an orthopedic MD the very day I got home. He was quite impressed with my condition (I think he was the type who pulled the wings off of flies as a boy to watch them squirm) and suspected ligament damage in addition to the obvious muscle damage. He wanted to put me in an "air cast" during the days, which I could take off for sleep at night. He also wanted me to stay off it as much as I could for the next month, and ordered me not to work. After four weeks or so, I could gradually resume activity, get PT, etc, and should be right as rain within 6 months or so.

Well, being an MT, there is NO WAY I could stay off my feet for a month. I told him that, and he said I would certainly heal badly, and that I would have pain and bad function and little strength in that ankle, possibly permanently, if I chose to forego his protocol. He stopped short of actually saying "I curse you" though.

So... on to my chiro I went. She took a couple of x-rays (yes she is certified to take AND read x-rays), examined my ankle, and said she would help me through it. She never said she could cure it. She did say she could help my own healing process along. Her protocol:

1. Sublingual and topical arnica
2. tight figure-8 wrap of the ankle to stay on all day, take off at night.
3. Heat in the morning. Ice and elevation between massage appointments. To this I added self-massage three times a day on the entire lower leg from foot to knee.
4. "drawing the alphabet" with my foot three times per day, stopping if the pain level was more than a 7 on a 10-scale.
5. Daily chiropractic manipulation of the affected foot, and spinal manipulation to help prevent postural imbalance from compensation.
6. I was NOT to let myself limp under any circumstances.

One month later, much of the bruising was gone, no more edema, no pain, no weakness, and complete restoral of full range of motion. Had I followed the MD's treatment plan, I would have just been getting out of a cast and starting PT. So... I will not agree that chiropractic in general is quackery. She offered me some alternative treatment, and it worked beautifully.

Who came off as the quack in this scenario?



PS. She does do nutritional analysis as well. You keep a food diary for two weeks, and fill out a six page questionnaire. She looks those over and finds the areas where you may be deficient in nutrients. She then makes recommendations for either changes in diet or use of supplements.

Sounds to me like a lot of you simply have not been to good chiropractors?

JustJess

She sounds wonderful, divagrrl, but she isn't trying to fix things she knows nothing about, nor is she turning her practice into a new-age haven (not that that's bad, but it's not good chiropracty), and that's what most people are complaining about. I'm glad you were able to have such great advice and care for your ankle!

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.