Nothing larger than a $20??? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

xepherys · 01-05-2006, 10:58 AM

So, what is the legality of stores that won't accept any bill larger than a $20? It seems to me that since a $100 bill is US Legal Tender, any US-based retail store would be required by law to accept and make change for this bill. I understand a small store that may legitimately not have change in the till at open. But a Subway? The one near me, I know, does not drop money more than once an hour or so. I KNOW they have change for that hundred... but they refuse to take it. That shit pisses me off. As a side note, what about the allowance of "minimum purchases" for credit card use? I recall from my days in retail that Visa and Mastercard, and I believe Discover have mandates in their merchant contracts that the merchants cannot require a minimum purchase amount. Is this still the case? Does anyone have links or documentation on either? Thanks!!!

Charlatan · 01-05-2006, 11:11 AM

Your only recourse is to shop somewhere else.

They don't have to serve you if they don't want to and they don't have to take anything over a $20 if they don't want to. The only risk to them is the loss of your business, the flipside is that they have received too many counterfeit bills and it has cost them a lot of money.

They'd rather risk losing your business.

xepherys · 01-05-2006, 11:16 AM

It just seems to defeat the purpose of legal tender if you can choose to or not to take it. A check, a card - not legal tender, and therefore it seems acceptable (albeit not a good business decision) to not take it. But cold hard cash? With the cheap ability to print decent looking money today, lots of places get burned with fake $10 and $20 bills as well. Especially since most places don't use the marker to "check" for valid tens and twenties. All it takes is a little $1.95 marker to make sure the bill is legit (within reason). I don't get it... :-/

Charlatan · 01-05-2006, 11:20 AM

Getting passed a fake $20 is nowhere near as costly as getting passed a fake $50 or $100.

The assumption is that most people get their money from the bank machine and therefore $20s are what most people have. The number of $50s and $100s that they have to turn down would be minimal.

BigBen · 01-05-2006, 11:28 AM

Hey there kids:

What bird is on the back of the $1000 bill? The Pine Grossbeak, that's what...

Having participated in this discussion with meaningless trivia, let me say this: The merchant must accept the currency for "Necessities of Life", and nothing more. Like Charlatan said, they don't have to accept your business;

You will not see the sign on grocery stores, utilities, the landlord, and in some cases, at the gas station. Those places that the court deems "Necessary" cannot refuse you service, prima facie.

I haven't touched a large bill in ages, and have to agree with the whole "20$ at the ATM" idea.

Then again, I use my interac card so much that I often find myself without cash of any kind. When a retailer doesn't take interac, I get really flustered.

xepherys · 01-05-2006, 11:31 AM

I've seen many gas stations with signs for nothing larger than $20. Big Ben, are you speaking specifically for Canada? Is it the same in the US? Also, how do you pay for utilities with cash? Most of my utility companies don't have payment centers anymore... you either mail a check or pay online.

Poppinjay · 01-05-2006, 11:42 AM

I don't think there's any ruling in the US regarding sale of neccessities.

I did a retail stint over Christmas holidays, and we were told to call a manager whenever we were tendered a $100 bill. Additionally, we had to vacate the till if it accumulated more than $300. My till hardly ever ran much over $100. One day, I handled nothing but credit card payments.

The latest big busts in counterfiting have been small denominations. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of retailers refusing large numbers of $1's.

Eventually we'll all just have our personal debit number tatooed on our arm. What could wrong with that?

xepherys · 01-05-2006, 11:45 AM

Haha, seriously. I'm going to start trying to pay for everything with gold nuggets, and get VERY upset when they don't weigh them and take it as payment. I mean, if they can be picky, I can be a dick, right? *g*

ShaniFaye · 01-05-2006, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

I've seen many gas stations with signs for nothing larger than $20. Big Ben, are you speaking specifically for Canada? Is it the same in the US? Also, how do you pay for utilities with cash? Most of my utility companies don't have payment centers anymore... you either mail a check or pay online.

every single utility I have has payment centers (I should know Im always behind and have to go make the payment hehehe and always pay with cash...they have no problems with big bills)

most of the gas stations around here wont take larger than a $50

Cynthetiq · 01-05-2006, 11:59 AM

I don't think that they can truly deny it for the same reasons that the toll collectors MUST accept pennies. They can REQUEST that you not use them, but HAVE to accept them since they are legal tender for all public and private debts.

BigBen · 01-05-2006, 12:04 PM

I can only comment on the legality of business contracts entered into in Canada.

In true Canadian fashion, I would like to take this opportunity to appologize for not being more aware of international Business Law.

xepherys · 01-05-2006, 12:29 PM

Hmmm... http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/c...l-tender.shtml

Quote:

Question I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

Answer The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

Rodney · 01-05-2006, 05:38 PM

I can see the store's argument, but it really depends on things that you can't know. They _may_ have enough people passing big bills that it screws up their supply of change. They _may_ have had trouble with counterfeit 100s, and have decided not to bother with them anymore. I know, people can learn to tell the difference, but a harried 16-year-old counter clerk probably isn't very good at it, especially if the scammer is putting verbal pressure on him or her. And you can bet that people passing counterfeit $$ try to find the most inexperienced-looking clerks.

100s are the only thing worth counterfeiting anymore. You have to pass too many 20s, even too many 50s, to make a decent score, and there's a risk every time you pass one.

optik_nerve · 01-05-2006, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney

I can see the store's argument, but it really depends on things that you can't know. They _may_ have enough people passing big bills that it screws up their supply of change.

I have to agree here. If everyone decides to pay with hundreds, there may not be enough change for someone else with smaller bills.

And it kind of got me thinking...the signs at gas stations that say "not more than 50 dollars in register" or something to that extent. I've gotten gas and seen people drop 40 bucks into their tanks...that's bullshit.

Cynthetiq · 01-06-2006, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by optik_nerve

I have to agree here. If everyone decides to pay with hundreds, there may not be enough change for someone else with smaller bills.

And it kind of got me thinking...the signs at gas stations that say "not more than 50 dollars in register" or something to that extent. I've gotten gas and seen people drop 40 bucks into their tanks...that's bullshit.

they could be doing safe drops ala 7-11 every 30 minutes leaving only $50 in the register. there are lots of businesses that do that so they limit the amounts of robberies and losses from the robberies.

maleficent · 01-06-2006, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I don't think that they can truly deny it for the same reasons that the toll collectors MUST accept pennies. They can REQUEST that you not use them, but HAVE to accept them since they are legal tender for all public and private debts.

to the best of my knowledge, Illinois (land of lincoln) is the only state that does accept pennies in the exact change machines on toll roads... Other states I've driven thru, do not.

Cynthetiq · 01-06-2006, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

to the best of my knowledge, Illinois (land of lincoln) is the only state that does accept pennies in the exact change machines on toll roads... Other states I've driven thru, do not.

I don't remember which toll booths it was GSP/Turnpike/Thruway... but i remember a black sign stating no pennies please after the increases people boycotted by paying with pennies and it was taken to court. that's about all i recall, need to look that up and find out the reality of it.

optik_nerve · 01-06-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

they could be doing safe drops ala 7-11 every 30 minutes leaving only $50 in the register. there are lots of businesses that do that so they limit the amounts of robberies and losses from the robberies.

It would seem though, if the business is busy it would be a pain in the ass to drop every 30 minutes.

Cynthetiq · 01-06-2006, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by optik_nerve

It would seem though, if the business is busy it would be a pain in the ass to drop every 30 minutes.

it is and that's when robbers tend to strike when the cashier doesn't have enough time to make drops, it still limits how much the company loses instead of the whole register drawer.

optik_nerve · 01-06-2006, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

it is and that's when robbers tend to strike when the cashier doesn't have enough time to make drops, it still limits how much the company loses instead of the whole register drawer.

Understood,

The_Jazz · 01-22-2006, 08:31 AM

There is no law that anyone HAS to take your money for anything. The only folks that by law have to accept any form of legal tender is the federal government, including the post office. By the way, stamps are legal tender as well under most circumstances (I don't suggest trying to pay your IRS bill in stamps). As for anyone else, they can take payment in any way that they see fit. Technically, they could only accept credit cards if they wanted or only barter. Hey, they could require Canadian money if they wanted. Most businesses are going to try to make it as easy as possible for their customers to do business with them, however, and are going to pretty much accept most things, within reason. For instance, if you walk into a Subway and are willing to sign over your car title for a sandwich, they can accept that as payment. The oposite side of the equation is true too - they could only accept $1 bills if they want.

I very well could be wrong on this, but I think that the term "legal tender" came up back when the US was on the gold standard, and every paper dollar was redeemable for a dollar's worth of gold.

superiorrain · 01-22-2006, 04:01 PM

Nothing above a $20 that's just plain crazy. However, the europeans have out done themselves with coming up with a note that is 500€. One note worth so much you do start to wonder what the logic behind that is. I once had a 100€ and they weren't too impressed with that. On the other hand i would like to say i once worked in a small shop were i accepted all legal tender as long as the money in the till would provide enough change. I never once accepted a forged note although did come across 3 in my two years. Easy to tell when you know what you are looking for and only one made me check all security measures - it failed on the hologram, as in it wasn't

cheeterbo · 01-30-2006, 08:09 PM

wow, this thread is kinda bizzare! i use hundreds and fifties almost exclusively and have never, never ever been refused in any city (nyc, phil, bost and anywhere in my home area of upstate ny). the fact that most of the time i use them i am in a suit and tie might have something to do with it.

aKula · 01-31-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superiorrain

Nothing above a $20 that's just plain crazy. However, the europeans have out done themselves with coming up with a note that is 500€. One note worth so much you do start to wonder what the logic behind that is. I once had a 100€ and they weren't too impressed with that. On the other hand i would like to say i once worked in a small shop were i accepted all legal tender as long as the money in the till would provide enough change. I never once accepted a forged note although did come across 3 in my two years. Easy to tell when you know what you are looking for and only one made me check all security measures - it failed on the hologram, as in it wasn't

Well the German Mark had a DM1000 note which was worth around the same as the the 500euro. Singapore outdoes them however with a $10000 note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Dollar

A quick google:
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=10...in+us+dollars&

Yes it's worth 6154.6 U.S. dollars, try paying in Subway with that!

01-05-2006, 10:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Nothing larger than a $20??? So, what is the legality of stores that won't accept any bill larger than a $20? It seems to me that since a $100 bill is US Legal Tender, any US-based retail store would be required by law to accept and make change for this bill. I understand a small store that may legitimately not have change in the till at open. But a Subway? The one near me, I know, does not drop money more than once an hour or so. I KNOW they have change for that hundred... but they refuse to take it. That shit pisses me off. As a side note, what about the allowance of "minimum purchases" for credit card use? I recall from my days in retail that Visa and Mastercard, and I believe Discover have mandates in their merchant contracts that the merchants cannot require a minimum purchase amount. Is this still the case? Does anyone have links or documentation on either? Thanks!!!

01-05-2006, 11:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Your only recourse is to shop somewhere else. They don't have to serve you if they don't want to and they don't have to take anything over a $20 if they don't want to. The only risk to them is the loss of your business, the flipside is that they have received too many counterfeit bills and it has cost them a lot of money. They'd rather risk losing your business. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-05-2006, 11:20 AM	#4 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Getting passed a fake $20 is nowhere near as costly as getting passed a fake $50 or $100. The assumption is that most people get their money from the bank machine and therefore $20s are what most people have. The number of $50s and $100s that they have to turn down would be minimal. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-05-2006, 11:28 AM	#5 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Hey there kids: What bird is on the back of the $1000 bill? The Pine Grossbeak, that's what... Having participated in this discussion with meaningless trivia, let me say this: The merchant must accept the currency for "Necessities of Life", and nothing more. Like Charlatan said, they don't have to accept your business; You will not see the sign on grocery stores, utilities, the landlord, and in some cases, at the gas station. Those places that the court deems "Necessary" cannot refuse you service, prima facie. I haven't touched a large bill in ages, and have to agree with the whole "20$ at the ATM" idea. Then again, I use my interac card so much that I often find myself without cash of any kind. When a retailer doesn't take interac, I get really flustered. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

01-05-2006, 11:42 AM	#7 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I don't think there's any ruling in the US regarding sale of neccessities. I did a retail stint over Christmas holidays, and we were told to call a manager whenever we were tendered a $100 bill. Additionally, we had to vacate the till if it accumulated more than $300. My till hardly ever ran much over $100. One day, I handled nothing but credit card payments. The latest big busts in counterfiting have been small denominations. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of retailers refusing large numbers of $1's. Eventually we'll all just have our personal debit number tatooed on our arm. What could wrong with that? __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

01-05-2006, 11:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	It just seems to defeat the purpose of legal tender if you can choose to or not to take it. A check, a card - not legal tender, and therefore it seems acceptable (albeit not a good business decision) to not take it. But cold hard cash? With the cheap ability to print decent looking money today, lots of places get burned with fake $10 and $20 bills as well. Especially since most places don't use the marker to "check" for valid tens and twenties. All it takes is a little $1.95 marker to make sure the bill is legit (within reason). I don't get it... :-/

01-05-2006, 11:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	I've seen many gas stations with signs for nothing larger than $20. Big Ben, are you speaking specifically for Canada? Is it the same in the US? Also, how do you pay for utilities with cash? Most of my utility companies don't have payment centers anymore... you either mail a check or pay online.

01-05-2006, 11:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Haha, seriously. I'm going to start trying to pay for everything with gold nuggets, and get VERY upset when they don't weigh them and take it as payment. I mean, if they can be picky, I can be a dick, right? g

01-05-2006, 11:59 AM	#10 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I don't think that they can truly deny it for the same reasons that the toll collectors MUST accept pennies. They can REQUEST that you not use them, but HAVE to accept them since they are legal tender for all public and private debts. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

01-05-2006, 12:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	I can only comment on the legality of business contracts entered into in Canada. In true Canadian fashion, I would like to take this opportunity to appologize for not being more aware of international Business Law. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

01-05-2006, 05:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	I can see the store's argument, but it really depends on things that you can't know. They _may_ have enough people passing big bills that it screws up their supply of change. They _may_ have had trouble with counterfeit 100s, and have decided not to bother with them anymore. I know, people can learn to tell the difference, but a harried 16-year-old counter clerk probably isn't very good at it, especially if the scammer is putting verbal pressure on him or her. And you can bet that people passing counterfeit $$ try to find the most inexperienced-looking clerks. 100s are the only thing worth counterfeiting anymore. You have to pass too many 20s, even too many 50s, to make a decent score, and there's a risk every time you pass one.

01-22-2006, 08:31 AM	#21 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	There is no law that anyone HAS to take your money for anything. The only folks that by law have to accept any form of legal tender is the federal government, including the post office. By the way, stamps are legal tender as well under most circumstances (I don't suggest trying to pay your IRS bill in stamps). As for anyone else, they can take payment in any way that they see fit. Technically, they could only accept credit cards if they wanted or only barter. Hey, they could require Canadian money if they wanted. Most businesses are going to try to make it as easy as possible for their customers to do business with them, however, and are going to pretty much accept most things, within reason. For instance, if you walk into a Subway and are willing to sign over your car title for a sandwich, they can accept that as payment. The oposite side of the equation is true too - they could only accept $1 bills if they want. I very well could be wrong on this, but I think that the term "legal tender" came up back when the US was on the gold standard, and every paper dollar was redeemable for a dollar's worth of gold.

01-22-2006, 04:01 PM	#22 (permalink)
superiorrain Psycho Location: London	Nothing above a $20 that's just plain crazy. However, the europeans have out done themselves with coming up with a note that is 500€. One note worth so much you do start to wonder what the logic behind that is. I once had a 100€ and they weren't too impressed with that. On the other hand i would like to say i once worked in a small shop were i accepted all legal tender as long as the money in the till would provide enough change. I never once accepted a forged note although did come across 3 in my two years. Easy to tell when you know what you are looking for and only one made me check all security measures - it failed on the hologram, as in it wasn't __________________ "The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible." - Arthur C. Clarke

01-30-2006, 08:09 PM	#23 (permalink)
cheeterbo Crazy Location: newyork	wow, this thread is kinda bizzare! i use hundreds and fifties almost exclusively and have never, never ever been refused in any city (nyc, phil, bost and anywhere in my home area of upstate ny). the fact that most of the time i use them i am in a suit and tie might have something to do with it.