On the need for engagement/marriage - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Bob Biter · 10-26-2005, 08:06 AM

I was checking out the Ladies' Lounge for anything interesting and thought-provoking, when I came across a thread about a woman's desire to get married, and her SO's apparent aloofness about it. She expressed her unwillingness to propose to him herself, as she feels it's his job.

Now, as a man, I can fully understand why some men put off marriage. We get comfortable with just living with our SO and if no kids are in the picture, we usually don't feel the need to take the relationship to that level. Personally, I have a hard time with the notion that love isn't "true" unless there's a wedding. In fact, I believe a couple can be just as faithful and perfect to each other as b/g than in marriage. The latter just adds extra social benefits and makes the relationship APPEAR more permanent, especially to society at large.

However, I understand that some women just plain need to be engaged/married when they find the right guy. Whether this is a result of social traditions or basic emotional need isn't that important. What IS important, IMHO, is the fact that the actual proposal, the "moving-forward", has to be accomplished by the man. Why? In this day and age, why cling to essentially pointless traditions? If a woman loves a man and wants to marry him, why can't she propose? A man who proposes runs the risk of getting shot down. Is this what women fear?

Judging by the responses to the thread I'm referring to, some women feel that if a man truly loves his SO, he will ask her to marry him. Why can't the situation be reversed? After all, a man who asks someone to marry him runs the same risk of the love not being genuine in the long run.

As an aside, I would also like to ask the thread starter this question: If your SO said to you one day: "Alright, let's go to the courthouse and get married." Would you then be happy, or would you require the ring and the full-blown traditonal wedding? I ask this because I want to understand if what you want is simply the married status, or the recognition/big day/whole 9 yards.

So, how would men feel if their beloved SO would propose to them? Ladies, do you have a problem with proposing to someone?

Coppertop · 10-26-2005, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Judging by the responses to the thread I'm referring to, some women feel that if a man truly loves his SO, he will ask her to marry him. Why can't the situation be reversed?

Exactly. If the woman truly loves her man, why can't she be happy with what they've got? I think it is because the opinions of others matter more than they perhaps should. And for the record, my girl has already stated that it is my job to propose to her, not the other way around. If that is the way she feels, then she needs to be prepared to wait.

maleficent · 10-26-2005, 09:27 AM

I'm not a big beleiver in marriage... and it's not monogamy that I don't beleive in... I think if two people want to spend the rest of their lives together, that's great, and it's a wonderful thing... that committment comes from the heart and not from a piece of paper and prancing downthe aisle in a white dress.

If I were to meet "prince charming" and decide that I did want to prance, I wouldn't have a problem with doing the asking... Women of a certain age have it drummed into us by our mothers that we can be whatever we want and we can do whatever we want. Why should that stop at proposing marriage?

Girlfriends will tell you that if you aren't being satisfied sexually, to ask for what you want, but most girlfriends will tell you that ou have to wait on pins and needles for him to ask you to marry him... I don't get it. I'm not sure why it's OK for a woman to tell a man to go a little to the left and harder harder oh baby harder... but it violates every rule of etiquette to say, Sweetheart, I love you and want us to spend the rest of our lives together and file our tax returns jointly..

JustJess · 10-26-2005, 09:41 AM

I completely agree with Mal ^^. We got married because we wanted to, we both wanted that celebration and all that goes with it, but mostly cause we're mushy ("I'm going to declare my love for you to the whole entire world!!!!"). I don't think it was necessary in any practical sense.

I would have proposed to Quadro, but he wanted to do the asking, and told me so. That was fine with me - although I would have asked a lot sooner!! I don't think the societal pressure is only on women - men feel like they have to do the proposal thing as well. I think it's probably very hard to be the man in the relationship - there are a lot of expectations of his taking charge, when that doesn't work for everyone.

Besides, since it seems like men often need more time to feel ready, maybe it's not so bad that they're "supposed" to ask - maybe women would ask "too" soon!

serlindsipity · 10-26-2005, 09:49 AM

i think women dont propose that often is fear of scaring the guy away. Granted, i know they should instead first ask what their opinion is on marriage, but no less, sometimes i wonder if guys will say they are the marrying type just to keep the girl around. not to say its lying, but there exists relief in knowing there is that need to settle down as much as it tends to exist in women (usually more so).

Its difficult both ways. When youre married, youre married. There seems to be a sense of finality associated with marriage, and i think that is what women find comfort in. it helps them believe it is long term and not going to change. Socially it is comforting (i think, from what ive seen) to know you have that ring and you both said "i do, forever" and people acknowledge and accept that better than people living together. SOmetimes it comes off as a weakness in the commitment if there is no final commitment.

Comfortable couples deal with both sides too. They have more freedom (or socially it is believed to be) and they dont have messy paperwork. They are missing out on benefits such as being on each other's insurance plans, but that isnt relative to this.

Anyways, i dont see any problem or reason not to propose as a women. However, finding the courage would be difficult. And if a woman proposes to a man, do we give them a ring? I dont know how that works....

snowy · 10-26-2005, 09:52 AM

My SO and I have basically already agreed we're going to get married after we both finish up our college educations, and I have informed him that if he "wishes" to really propose, he had better not do it the way my dad did it (My dad turned to my mother, tapped her on the shoulder, and said, "We should get married."), as I really would prefer something a little more romantic.

Now, if the time comes when I think we should be formalizing that proposal (say his graduation, which is the furthest out, is impending, and nothing has been said...though I doubt this scenario sincerely), I'd have no problem proposing to him. But then I've always been headstrong and independent.

maleficent · 10-26-2005, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serlindsipity

And if a woman proposes to a man, do we give them a ring? .

Why does there have to be a ring? It's always seemed to be that the engagement ring -- especially some of the 2 carat honkers I've seen, were bribes...

For some guys, just give him a plasma television and a case of really good beer..

ShaniFaye · 10-26-2005, 10:09 AM

Considering that common law marriage is only legal in about 7 states now....there ARE reasons to "get that piece of paper" it sure makes things a lot easier (for the reasons onesnowyowl posted in the ladies forum)

Sure a woman can propose to a man....I did it with my first husband

JustJess · 10-26-2005, 10:11 AM

HAHAHAHA! Quadro would have LOVED that. (well, the TV part anyway.

)

snowy · 10-26-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serlindsipity

Anyways, i dont see any problem or reason not to propose as a women. However, finding the courage would be difficult. And if a woman proposes to a man, do we give them a ring? I dont know how that works....

I know my guy wants a ring for himself when we get engaged, which I think is sweet. Guess it just depends on the guy

Poppinjay · 10-26-2005, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Why does there have to be a ring? It's always seemed to be that the engagement ring -- especially some of the 2 carat honkers I've seen, were bribes...

For some guys, just give him a plasma television and a case of really good beer..

The beer doesn't have to be great, and you can put the TV over there.

I never felt any pressure to propose. I figured it was the better of two things - I would never have a live-in SO if I weren't married. I'm not a moralist, but I REALLY liked being on my own, shutting off the world at 5pm, unanswerable to anybody. My SO spent all of three nights at my place the entire time we dated. No teefbrush in the cabinet. No scenty shampoo in the shower.

And yet, there was this drive to start working towards the best possible future together which over rode that desire for having my own cave. Ergo, marriage was the thing to make that start.

As for the engagement period, I planned to be an up to date groom and help with the planning of our small wedding and brief honeymoon. After the freight train ran me over like Wile E. Coyote, we ended up with "only" 96 guests (because of the terrorist attacks occured 4 days earlier - no transportation for most guests).

I bought a book on what the groom can do during the engagement. It was bullshit. If I were to re-write it for a newly engaged guy, it would have one page.

"Stop this."

"Put me down."

"Walk out of the bookstore."

"Don't even think about it."

"Say, 'I do' when everybody looks at you."

onodrim · 10-26-2005, 11:36 AM

I agree that the whole "waiting excitedly for it to happen" thing is silly. If you've reached a point in your relationship where marriage is a definite option, then there shouldn't have to be any element of surprise or uncertainty at all. Sure, you can have an "official" proposal, but it shouldn't have to be such a big deal. It can be a simple verbal confirmation between two people in which case it doesn't matter who starts the initial conversation. Also, the whole thing with the ring is also overdone. Either both people should have a ring, or none at all really. Why should only the one getting asked be a ring, and why should a man feel he needs to spend a year's salary on a piece of jewelry? Save the money and the symbolism for the actual marriage.

Rodney · 10-26-2005, 01:04 PM

I lived with my wife for a long time befor we actually got legally married; and it was understood that we were together forever. Nevertheless, occasionally she'd bring it up, and I'd just get all stuttery. After a while, she did it just to watch me stutter.

Don't know why. As far as I was concerned, I'd committed to her forever, and yet the whole thing about Making It Legal panicked me on some level; maybe because it meant things would change in some mysterious way beyond my control. Maybe because what was mine would now be _legally_ half hers instead of just, well, because I said it was. And I had the freedom to change my mind. Dunno.

From a legal standpoint, this is how an attorney once defined marriage for me: "Marriage is a package of mutual responsibilities and obligations." And I think most guys realize that on a basic level: once you say, "I do," it's not just about supporting each other because you want to, but because you now _have to._ Even if at some later date you in theory decide you don't love that person anymore, or they don't love you.

As to why women seem more interested in formalizing it than men; well, who has the most to lose if a long-term relationship breaks up? Often the woman. Frankly, a guy with reasonable looks and a good wallet has a much later "sell by" date than most women, and the woman knows that.

The flip side of getting married, of course, is that you _do_ have responsibility for that person. So when they get sick, for example, you can be the one making the decisions instead of his or her family. Because unless you're married or have a medicalYouc power of attorney, you the partner have no rights in that hospital room.

You can build a set of marriage-like responsibilities through getting married through a set of legal agreements, but in the end we took the lawyer's advice and bought the "package" -- tried and true, no possibility of legal challenge or ambiguity.

And in the end, I "proposed" to her. After saying for years, "real soon now," one day I just booked a timeslot at the county courthouse and told her we could go if she was ready. She was ready.

But if she'd have proposed to me, I'd have had no problem. In fact, I'm surprised she didn't. She's pretty assertive about most other things.

denim · 10-26-2005, 01:32 PM

Just once, I'd like to see a couple get married in black, with a wedding dirge playing.

If that's not good enough, how about in plaid, with a polka? White is just so, "yeah, right, she's a virgin".

ShaniFaye · 10-26-2005, 02:37 PM

denim does emerald green and black work for you?

denim · 10-26-2005, 03:11 PM

I don't know. I'd have to see how it combines with my skin tone.

Actually, I was expecting some kind of indignant comment about my statement with the female being virgin but not the male.

abaya · 10-26-2005, 03:35 PM

Man, there are some GREAT posts on this thread. Very insightful!!

I agree with Jess that most women don't propose because men, on average, seem to be a little slow on the marriage draw compared to their partners. Men need a longer period of time to give up their cave and "freedom," as they say (hell, a lot of women need that time, too... I do!) Rodney and Poppinjay had really nice explanations of the man's side.

I see no moral or social reason against a woman proposing, but proposing when the man isn't ready is asking for the shit to hit the fan. I think it has to do with the fact that men might see marriage as losing control (or a degree of autonomy/non-responsibility, as the guys said above)... so it's really important for them to feel okay with that decision of losing autonomy, which means it comes down to their decision and their timing, essentially.

Onodrim: I agree with your reflection on the ring stuff. I've always liked the idea of both people having engagement rings (yay, SnowyOwl!)... I mean, both people end up with wedding rings, so why not both have engagement rings?... (or both people have nothing, I guess, but I do like the idea of a ring as a symbol.) Maybe it doesn't have to be an engagement ring... it could be some other piece of jewelry, or just something else physical/symbolic that both people agree on (beer and TV

). Hell, it could just be the act of moving in together... for me, that would be really important. I don't like the idea of living together as being merely a "trial period." I like the idea of it being a sign of commitment, a final step before marriage. Anyway.

guthmund · 10-26-2005, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I'm not a big beleiver in marriage... and it's not monogamy that I don't beleive in... I think if two people want to spend the rest of their lives together, that's great, and it's a wonderful thing... that committment comes from the heart and not from a piece of paper and prancing downthe aisle in a white dress.

If I were to meet "prince charming" and decide that I did want to prance, I wouldn't have a problem with doing the asking... Women of a certain age have it drummed into us by our mothers that we can be whatever we want and we can do whatever we want. Why should that stop at proposing marriage?

Girlfriends will tell you that if you aren't being satisfied sexually, to ask for what you want, but most girlfriends will tell you that ou have to wait on pins and needles for him to ask you to marry him... I don't get it. I'm not sure why it's OK for a woman to tell a man to go a little to the left and harder harder oh baby harder... but it violates every rule of etiquette to say, Sweetheart, I love you and want us to spend the rest of our lives together and file our tax returns jointly..

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Except the 'prince charming' thing and the prancing....I'm a big man, prancing....well, it ain't pretty.

As for the rings, to me anyway, I think both parties should get rings (or whatever). To me that says, "We pledge ourselves to each other," rather than just the woman getting a ring, which is more in line with, "She's mine. I've claimed and marked her. Stay away."

serlindsipity · 10-26-2005, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Why does there have to be a ring? It's always seemed to be that the engagement ring -- especially some of the 2 carat honkers I've seen, were bribes...

For some guys, just give him a plasma television and a case of really good beer..

mmm... beer. i could handle that.

I just didnt know about the ring. And yea, the giant rocks i usually saw it as a really expensive way to mark your territory. I guess its cleaner than peeing on her...

Dragonknight · 10-26-2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onodrim

I agree that the whole "waiting excitedly for it to happen" thing is silly. If you've reached a point in your relationship where marriage is a definite option, then there shouldn't have to be any element of surprise or uncertainty at all. Sure, you can have an "official" proposal, but it shouldn't have to be such a big deal. It can be a simple verbal confirmation between two people in which case it doesn't matter who starts the initial conversation. Also, the whole thing with the ring is also overdone. Either both people should have a ring, or none at all really. Why should only the one getting asked be a ring, and why should a man feel he needs to spend a year's salary on a piece of jewelry? Save the money and the symbolism for the actual marriage.

For the some the expensive ring is a symbol of the mans financial stability. It's his way of saying, "I will be able to support you/her" depending on weather he wants to show her family, or her. For some it's just to show up other people by saying I could afford it and you couldn't.

Beside some women actually want that type of thing as a "true sign of affection."

SecretMethod70 · 10-26-2005, 11:35 PM

Which is exactly the problem. Symbols that the man can care for the helpless female are hardly indicative of a society that values equality. "Showing other people up" is yet another demonstration of a vapid and materialist culture, as is believing that the purchase of an overvalued rock has any relation to the feeling of love.

denim · 10-27-2005, 04:06 AM

It can also mean "I was financially stable until I paid more than I should have for something which doesn't add any real value. Now I'm in debt. Thanks so much."

maleficent · 10-27-2005, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonknight

For the some the expensive ring is a symbol of the mans financial stability. It's his way of saying, "I will be able to support you/her" depending on weather he wants to show her family, or her. For some it's just to show up other people by saying I could afford it and you couldn't.

There's lots of symbolism in weddings that (in my overly feministic mindset) take women back to the 1950s mindset of the little woman not being able to do anything for herself.

Why should a man have to be able to prove his ability to support a woman. If a woman can't support herself, she shouldn't be getting married. It sounds like its going from Daddys house to Hubbies house and always expecting someone to take care of her. Women are capable of taking care of themselves...

Don't even get me started on the whole 'giving away the bride' concept...

denim · 10-27-2005, 04:19 AM

I don't see how they can call it "giving away the bride" when she is supposed to come with a dowry to help provide for her. Instead, call it "selling the bride to her next supporting cast", maybe. IOW, not only doesn't she have any value, her new hubby is being paid to get her off her father's hands. Lovely.

Bob Biter · 10-27-2005, 04:29 AM

Great responses everyone! However, just to get this thread a bit more back on track, who, amongst us men, wouldn't mind being proposed to by a woman, and who, amongst the ladies, don't mind proposing. As an added question, if women proposed, would they want to do it earlier in the relationship? If so, at which point and why?

ShaniFaye · 10-27-2005, 04:50 AM

I just cant read these kinds of threads anymore...I will say I'd have no problem proposing to Dave if he hadnt asked me first and if he'd WANTED a ring (which he had no desire for anything other than a wedding band) I'd have presented him with one.

Redlemon · 10-27-2005, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Biter

Great responses everyone! However, just to get this thread a bit more back on track, who, amongst us men, wouldn't mind being proposed to by a woman, and who, amongst the ladies, don't mind proposing. As an added question, if women proposed, would they want to do it earlier in the relationship? If so, at which point and why?

We met Freshman year of college. I proposed 6 years later (2 years out of college). My wife told me that, prior to my proposal, she had decided to give me one more year, then she was going to ask me. It would have been fine with me. Also, I wore a Claddagh ring as an engagement ring.

Charlatan · 10-27-2005, 05:59 AM

When I was much younger, I vowed I would never get married. My parents made "sacred vows" and did the traditional wedding, and where did it get them? Ten years later and two kids in, divorce.

I could see no benefit to going through the motions of a wedding. The feminist in me dispised the "who gives this woman", "who takes this woman" nonsense... what? Is a woman just property to be exchanged? No woman I love would be considered property.

And don't get me started on having it in a church. I'm an atheist, for God's sake

why would I take vows before a god I don't think even exists...

The litany would go on from here... I was a passionate little nipper.

The thing is, when I met my wife, we dated just like anyone else. We feel in love and after a time, I knew I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her.

When I asked her to marry me, what I asked her was, "Will you grown old with me and have kids with me". I still did not plan on "marriage". My wife, knew my feelings on weddings and yet she still wanted to "wear the pretty dress".

I did a lot of thinking and talking and more thinking and talking. In the end, we boiled down, for us, what a wedding and what a marriage is. We decided that making a committment to each other to "grow old and have kids together" was a noteworthy event. It should be marked somehow. We decided that a wedding is two things:

1) a public declaration of committment.
2) a celebration of said committment.

How one acheives these two things is entirely up to the couple. We chose a mix of traditional and non-traditional elements for our wedding.

We walked down the aisle together as equals.
We had no religious leader.
We signed no city licenses.
We each made a speech about why we were there and what the other mean to us and made a vow of committment.
She wore a dress of her own design made by a friend.
I wore a jacket of my own design and made by a friend.
We made most of the decorations and did a lot of it ourselves (I silkscreened and sewed the table cloths, she made the centre pieces, etc.).

We were lucky to have parents that respected our wishes (after some long talks and explainations).

In the end we had a wedding that meant something to us. We were boycotted by only a few members of her family (ultra religious). To this day, people who were there still bring up our wedding...

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that weddings are important, as are the traditions associated with them. Regardless of the initial meanings of things like "giving away the bride" etc. These traditions represent way in which we mark the passage from one part of life into another. It is also a way in which we formalize our committments in a public setting and how we share this with our friends, family and community at large.

It is very easy to be snide and say, "who needs it" but we do. The celebration, the declaration of commitment *are* important. It changes the nature of your relationship and should not be entered into lightly.

As to the OP: I have no problem with a woman asking me to committ to her. A ring is just a token of that committment... the true committment is in the heart and jewelry or not, once you've made that committment, your countenance will change.

ngdawg · 10-27-2005, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

There's lots of symbolism in weddings that (in my overly feministic mindset) take women back to the 1950s mindset of the little woman not being able to do anything for herself.

Why should a man have to be able to prove his ability to support a woman. If a woman can't support herself, she shouldn't be getting married. It sounds like its going from Daddys house to Hubbies house and always expecting someone to take care of her. Women are capable of taking care of themselves...

Don't even get me started on the whole 'giving away the bride' concept...

Interesting as I have been trying to explain the 'daddy's house to hubby's house' emotions to my spouse forever and he doesn't get it. I grew way too dependent on him over the years and when I finally made decisions independent of the marriage (going on trips alone, doing the photography, etc), he blew a gasket because he 'wasn't involved'.
We also lived together for 9 months until I basically whined that I wanted to get married, so I suppose I did the proposing. But I felt that this was the person I wanted to grow old with-being a girlfriend while sharing his home and life just didn't cut it.
Now all these years later, I see what I did wrong in leaning on him too much. Statistics, both national and personal, tell me I'll be widowed in the not too distant future. I need to find my own self NOW before I'm left thinking 'WTF just happened here?'
And, no ring....guess my doing the proposing screwed me out of that but no biggy.

Poppinjay · 10-27-2005, 08:24 AM

You know, in hindsight I don't think I would have liked to have been asked. In my case it would never have been a problem because my SO would be the type to make stronger and stronger hints. That never happened. But given that the planning was doen by her and her mother, the asking and giving of a ring was the only part I had control over. I really enjoyed that part.

There something to be said for being chedder headed and in love.

abaya · 10-27-2005, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It is very easy to be snide and say, "who needs it" but we do. The celebration, the declaration of commitment *are* important. It changes the nature of your relationship and should not be entered into lightly.

Charlatan, thanks for your post... I found it really good to read. After years of the usual girly expectations, in my current relationship I've worked hard on changing those assumptions/expectations and just allowing things to evolve on their own. Thus I have come to agree with much of what you've said. I still believe in marriage, that as a form of public commitment and celebration, it is inherently different than just cohabiting for the rest of your lives. But the term is not as loaded as it used to be, for me. Which feels good.

Like I said, though, I think the whole who-does-the-asking thing depends on each relationship. I think that in general, guys just take longer to get to the "I am ready" point... not always, but often. And many guys do like to maintain control over that declaration of commitment, rather than letting the girl make that decision for them. And girls, if they admit it, aren't always ready when they think they are... we just get impatient.

snowy · 10-27-2005, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

I still believe in marriage, that as a form of public commitment and celebration, it is inherently different than just cohabiting for the rest of your lives. But the term is not as loaded as it used to be, for me. Which feels good.

For my SO and I...well, we both come from families where marriage is extremely important (his parents 25+ years of marriage, mine 23+ years of marriage) and not a commitment to be entered into lightly. We also both know already that it's something that is extremely important to us, too. We're just not the "not marrying" kind.

Bob Biter · 10-27-2005, 09:19 AM

Great post, Charlatan! You gave some good ideas that I might use when I decide to settle down.

Abaya, I can understand why women might get impatient and start dropping hints, but not pop the question themselves. Perhaps, they're just as afraid as men, but would rather get into it (marriage) sooner, to get the stress over with and move on, while men are content with how things are beforehand and don't see that stress.

SecretMethod70 · 10-27-2005, 05:02 PM

Charlatan, your post was great and is, for the most part, how I feel about it as well. I think marriage can be a very important symbol/declaration/celebration of committment to one another.

As for who asks, I'm pretty ambivalent about it. I will say though, regarding the possibility of asking before the other person is ready (brought up mostly in the context of the female asking), if you don't already know what the answer will genuinely be, I don't think you're at a point in your relationship where you should be considering marriage.

abaya · 10-27-2005, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

if you don't already know what the answer will genuinely be, I don't think you're at a point in your relationship where you should be considering marriage.

Yes, SM, I agree. I think that more often, though, women convince themselves that they are more ready than they actually are, out of a need for security and getting-it-over-with. So they either jump the gun and ask the guy before he is ready, or they say yes when they are not 100% sure, but don't want to hurt the guy's feelings. I think for either person to ask, without knowing with 99.9% certainty that the other person is ready, is selfish (and yes, I have felt that selfish, in the recent past).

Amnesia620 · 10-27-2005, 08:51 PM

For me, being a total head-over-heels romantic, I don't know if I could see myself proposing to my guy. I always like to be the submissive one, my partner the dominant in most every sense. When I meet him, the one I'm to be with forever, then he'll be the one to ask me...if I'm never asked, then well, guess I'm going to be single until I pass away.

I agree, for others, that things are different in this day and age and there is no rule book when it comes to the standards and roles of men and women. I think that it mostly has to do with personal preference.

nightstuff · 10-28-2005, 02:41 AM

I'm also a hopeless romantic, and I know that a) I want to be the one taking the lead and b) it has to be something memorable and very special feeling.

Another thing, the wedding is of course a public thing, but the engagement i see as private. Doing things like inviting friends along to participate in the occassion just feels wrong for me...puts this weird pressure on her that i wouldnt want. Same thing with these sensational public displays, where the guy has the question popped via blimps or at a football game (*makes nauseous face*). Nope, I'm more the "while up in a cottage in the mountains, snowed in just the two of us" kind of guy.

OTK · 11-10-2005, 09:02 AM

I understand the wanting to be independant and strong, but I think if I was a chick a part of me would definetly say, "you bring home the moola for food and rent, and I will hang at home and watch movies." Sounds like a deal!

Dragonknight · 11-10-2005, 09:42 AM

I would not have minded my wife asking me to marry her one bit. I knew she wanted to ask me she wanted it really bad (I was leaving to Iraq). I also knew she wasn't going to ask. (I waited to see if she would) So I asked her the first chance that I had some time to be at home with her. I didn't want to ask her, and have to leave back to work (we lived in three hours away from each other).

little_tippler · 11-10-2005, 10:22 AM

I have to say that Charlatan's post hits the nail on the head for me. Marriage is not important, the commitment is. And it has to be meant, first and foremost, between the two people who make it. I don't think it's that important to make it public though I can see why it would help.

so at risk of being repetitive, here's what I said in the Ladies' Lounge Thread about the OP there who wanted her SO to propose, which still stands IMO:

what difference really, and practically, does being married make? I don't think it's fair to force him to do it, or give him an ultimatum. It's a case of what's more important to you - him, or the ring. If you want it to confirm some sort of status, then I think you want it for the wrong reasons.

A much better approach if you really feel that strongly about him, is to propose to him yourself. You can always exchange "rings" later. I have a friend who did that with her SO. They went out and got each other plain silver rings, with an inscription along the lines of "I love you, I don't want to live without you" and the date. Much more romantic - demanding it is just aggressive.

To answer the OP, I think it's possible if I wanted to get married in the future that I would propose. I would only do that if I was sure the answer would be yes and he just hadn't thought to ask.

10-26-2005, 08:06 AM	#1 (permalink)
Bob Biter Non-smokers die everyday Location: Montreal	On the need for engagement/marriage I was checking out the Ladies' Lounge for anything interesting and thought-provoking, when I came across a thread about a woman's desire to get married, and her SO's apparent aloofness about it. She expressed her unwillingness to propose to him herself, as she feels it's his job. Now, as a man, I can fully understand why some men put off marriage. We get comfortable with just living with our SO and if no kids are in the picture, we usually don't feel the need to take the relationship to that level. Personally, I have a hard time with the notion that love isn't "true" unless there's a wedding. In fact, I believe a couple can be just as faithful and perfect to each other as b/g than in marriage. The latter just adds extra social benefits and makes the relationship APPEAR more permanent, especially to society at large. However, I understand that some women just plain need to be engaged/married when they find the right guy. Whether this is a result of social traditions or basic emotional need isn't that important. What IS important, IMHO, is the fact that the actual proposal, the "moving-forward", has to be accomplished by the man. Why? In this day and age, why cling to essentially pointless traditions? If a woman loves a man and wants to marry him, why can't she propose? A man who proposes runs the risk of getting shot down. Is this what women fear? Judging by the responses to the thread I'm referring to, some women feel that if a man truly loves his SO, he will ask her to marry him. Why can't the situation be reversed? After all, a man who asks someone to marry him runs the same risk of the love not being genuine in the long run. As an aside, I would also like to ask the thread starter this question: If your SO said to you one day: "Alright, let's go to the courthouse and get married." Would you then be happy, or would you require the ring and the full-blown traditonal wedding? I ask this because I want to understand if what you want is simply the married status, or the recognition/big day/whole 9 yards. So, how would men feel if their beloved SO would propose to them? Ladies, do you have a problem with proposing to someone? __________________ A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

10-26-2005, 09:27 AM	#3 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I'm not a big beleiver in marriage... and it's not monogamy that I don't beleive in... I think if two people want to spend the rest of their lives together, that's great, and it's a wonderful thing... that committment comes from the heart and not from a piece of paper and prancing downthe aisle in a white dress. If I were to meet "prince charming" and decide that I did want to prance, I wouldn't have a problem with doing the asking... Women of a certain age have it drummed into us by our mothers that we can be whatever we want and we can do whatever we want. Why should that stop at proposing marriage? Girlfriends will tell you that if you aren't being satisfied sexually, to ask for what you want, but most girlfriends will tell you that ou have to wait on pins and needles for him to ask you to marry him... I don't get it. I'm not sure why it's OK for a woman to tell a man to go a little to the left and harder harder oh baby harder... but it violates every rule of etiquette to say, Sweetheart, I love you and want us to spend the rest of our lives together and file our tax returns jointly.. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

10-26-2005, 09:41 AM	#4 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	I completely agree with Mal ^^. We got married because we wanted to, we both wanted that celebration and all that goes with it, but mostly cause we're mushy ("I'm going to declare my love for you to the whole entire world!!!!"). I don't think it was necessary in any practical sense. I would have proposed to Quadro, but he wanted to do the asking, and told me so. That was fine with me - although I would have asked a lot sooner!! I don't think the societal pressure is only on women - men feel like they have to do the proposal thing as well. I think it's probably very hard to be the man in the relationship - there are a lot of expectations of his taking charge, when that doesn't work for everyone. Besides, since it seems like men often need more time to feel ready, maybe it's not so bad that they're "supposed" to ask - maybe women would ask "too" soon! __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

10-26-2005, 09:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
serlindsipity Psycho Location: Boulder Baby!	i think women dont propose that often is fear of scaring the guy away. Granted, i know they should instead first ask what their opinion is on marriage, but no less, sometimes i wonder if guys will say they are the marrying type just to keep the girl around. not to say its lying, but there exists relief in knowing there is that need to settle down as much as it tends to exist in women (usually more so). Its difficult both ways. When youre married, youre married. There seems to be a sense of finality associated with marriage, and i think that is what women find comfort in. it helps them believe it is long term and not going to change. Socially it is comforting (i think, from what ive seen) to know you have that ring and you both said "i do, forever" and people acknowledge and accept that better than people living together. SOmetimes it comes off as a weakness in the commitment if there is no final commitment. Comfortable couples deal with both sides too. They have more freedom (or socially it is believed to be) and they dont have messy paperwork. They are missing out on benefits such as being on each other's insurance plans, but that isnt relative to this. Anyways, i dont see any problem or reason not to propose as a women. However, finding the courage would be difficult. And if a woman proposes to a man, do we give them a ring? I dont know how that works.... __________________ My third eye is my camera's lens.

10-26-2005, 09:52 AM	#6 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	My SO and I have basically already agreed we're going to get married after we both finish up our college educations, and I have informed him that if he "wishes" to really propose, he had better not do it the way my dad did it (My dad turned to my mother, tapped her on the shoulder, and said, "We should get married."), as I really would prefer something a little more romantic. Now, if the time comes when I think we should be formalizing that proposal (say his graduation, which is the furthest out, is impending, and nothing has been said...though I doubt this scenario sincerely), I'd have no problem proposing to him. But then I've always been headstrong and independent. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

10-26-2005, 10:09 AM	#8 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Considering that common law marriage is only legal in about 7 states now....there ARE reasons to "get that piece of paper" it sure makes things a lot easier (for the reasons onesnowyowl posted in the ladies forum) Sure a woman can propose to a man....I did it with my first husband __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

10-26-2005, 10:11 AM	#9 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	HAHAHAHA! Quadro would have LOVED that. (well, the TV part anyway. ) __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

10-26-2005, 11:36 AM	#12 (permalink)
onodrim Cosmically Curious Location: Chicago, IL	I agree that the whole "waiting excitedly for it to happen" thing is silly. If you've reached a point in your relationship where marriage is a definite option, then there shouldn't have to be any element of surprise or uncertainty at all. Sure, you can have an "official" proposal, but it shouldn't have to be such a big deal. It can be a simple verbal confirmation between two people in which case it doesn't matter who starts the initial conversation. Also, the whole thing with the ring is also overdone. Either both people should have a ring, or none at all really. Why should only the one getting asked be a ring, and why should a man feel he needs to spend a year's salary on a piece of jewelry? Save the money and the symbolism for the actual marriage. __________________ "The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides" -Carl Sagan

10-26-2005, 01:04 PM	#13 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	I lived with my wife for a long time befor we actually got legally married; and it was understood that we were together forever. Nevertheless, occasionally she'd bring it up, and I'd just get all stuttery. After a while, she did it just to watch me stutter. Don't know why. As far as I was concerned, I'd committed to her forever, and yet the whole thing about Making It Legal panicked me on some level; maybe because it meant things would change in some mysterious way beyond my control. Maybe because what was mine would now be _legally_ half hers instead of just, well, because I said it was. And I had the freedom to change my mind. Dunno. From a legal standpoint, this is how an attorney once defined marriage for me: "Marriage is a package of mutual responsibilities and obligations." And I think most guys realize that on a basic level: once you say, "I do," it's not just about supporting each other because you want to, but because you now _have to._ Even if at some later date you in theory decide you don't love that person anymore, or they don't love you. As to why women seem more interested in formalizing it than men; well, who has the most to lose if a long-term relationship breaks up? Often the woman. Frankly, a guy with reasonable looks and a good wallet has a much later "sell by" date than most women, and the woman knows that. The flip side of getting married, of course, is that you _do_ have responsibility for that person. So when they get sick, for example, you can be the one making the decisions instead of his or her family. Because unless you're married or have a medicalYouc power of attorney, you the partner have no rights in that hospital room. You can build a set of marriage-like responsibilities through getting married through a set of legal agreements, but in the end we took the lawyer's advice and bought the "package" -- tried and true, no possibility of legal challenge or ambiguity. And in the end, I "proposed" to her. After saying for years, "real soon now," one day I just booked a timeslot at the county courthouse and told her we could go if she was ready. She was ready. But if she'd have proposed to me, I'd have had no problem. In fact, I'm surprised she didn't. She's pretty assertive about most other things.

10-26-2005, 01:32 PM	#14 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	Just once, I'd like to see a couple get married in black, with a wedding dirge playing. If that's not good enough, how about in plaid, with a polka? White is just so, "yeah, right, she's a virgin".

10-26-2005, 02:37 PM	#15 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	denim does emerald green and black work for you? __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

10-26-2005, 03:11 PM	#16 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	I don't know. I'd have to see how it combines with my skin tone. Actually, I was expecting some kind of indignant comment about my statement with the female being virgin but not the male.

10-26-2005, 03:35 PM	#17 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Man, there are some GREAT posts on this thread. Very insightful!! I agree with Jess that most women don't propose because men, on average, seem to be a little slow on the marriage draw compared to their partners. Men need a longer period of time to give up their cave and "freedom," as they say (hell, a lot of women need that time, too... I do!) Rodney and Poppinjay had really nice explanations of the man's side. I see no moral or social reason against a woman proposing, but proposing when the man isn't ready is asking for the shit to hit the fan. I think it has to do with the fact that men might see marriage as losing control (or a degree of autonomy/non-responsibility, as the guys said above)... so it's really important for them to feel okay with that decision of losing autonomy, which means it comes down to their decision and their timing, essentially. Onodrim: I agree with your reflection on the ring stuff. I've always liked the idea of both people having engagement rings (yay, SnowyOwl!)... I mean, both people end up with wedding rings, so why not both have engagement rings?... (or both people have nothing, I guess, but I do like the idea of a ring as a symbol.) Maybe it doesn't have to be an engagement ring... it could be some other piece of jewelry, or just something else physical/symbolic that both people agree on (beer and TV ). Hell, it could just be the act of moving in together... for me, that would be really important. I don't like the idea of living together as being merely a "trial period." I like the idea of it being a sign of commitment, a final step before marriage. Anyway. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

10-26-2005, 11:35 PM	#21 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Which is exactly the problem. Symbols that the man can care for the helpless female are hardly indicative of a society that values equality. "Showing other people up" is yet another demonstration of a vapid and materialist culture, as is believing that the purchase of an overvalued rock has any relation to the feeling of love. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

10-27-2005, 04:06 AM	#22 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	It can also mean "I was financially stable until I paid more than I should have for something which doesn't add any real value. Now I'm in debt. Thanks so much."

10-27-2005, 04:19 AM	#24 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	I don't see how they can call it "giving away the bride" when she is supposed to come with a dowry to help provide for her. Instead, call it "selling the bride to her next supporting cast", maybe. IOW, not only doesn't she have any value, her new hubby is being paid to get her off her father's hands. Lovely.

10-27-2005, 04:29 AM	#25 (permalink)
Bob Biter Non-smokers die everyday Location: Montreal	Great responses everyone! However, just to get this thread a bit more back on track, who, amongst us men, wouldn't mind being proposed to by a woman, and who, amongst the ladies, don't mind proposing. As an added question, if women proposed, would they want to do it earlier in the relationship? If so, at which point and why? __________________ A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

10-27-2005, 04:50 AM	#26 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I just cant read these kinds of threads anymore...I will say I'd have no problem proposing to Dave if he hadnt asked me first and if he'd WANTED a ring (which he had no desire for anything other than a wedding band) I'd have presented him with one. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

10-27-2005, 05:59 AM	#28 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	When I was much younger, I vowed I would never get married. My parents made "sacred vows" and did the traditional wedding, and where did it get them? Ten years later and two kids in, divorce. I could see no benefit to going through the motions of a wedding. The feminist in me dispised the "who gives this woman", "who takes this woman" nonsense... what? Is a woman just property to be exchanged? No woman I love would be considered property. And don't get me started on having it in a church. I'm an atheist, for God's sake why would I take vows before a god I don't think even exists... The litany would go on from here... I was a passionate little nipper. The thing is, when I met my wife, we dated just like anyone else. We feel in love and after a time, I knew I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. When I asked her to marry me, what I asked her was, "Will you grown old with me and have kids with me". I still did not plan on "marriage". My wife, knew my feelings on weddings and yet she still wanted to "wear the pretty dress". I did a lot of thinking and talking and more thinking and talking. In the end, we boiled down, for us, what a wedding and what a marriage is. We decided that making a committment to each other to "grow old and have kids together" was a noteworthy event. It should be marked somehow. We decided that a wedding is two things: 1) a public declaration of committment. 2) a celebration of said committment. How one acheives these two things is entirely up to the couple. We chose a mix of traditional and non-traditional elements for our wedding. We walked down the aisle together as equals. We had no religious leader. We signed no city licenses. We each made a speech about why we were there and what the other mean to us and made a vow of committment. She wore a dress of her own design made by a friend. I wore a jacket of my own design and made by a friend. We made most of the decorations and did a lot of it ourselves (I silkscreened and sewed the table cloths, she made the centre pieces, etc.). We were lucky to have parents that respected our wishes (after some long talks and explainations). In the end we had a wedding that meant something to us. We were boycotted by only a few members of her family (ultra religious). To this day, people who were there still bring up our wedding... Over the years I have come to the conclusion that weddings are important, as are the traditions associated with them. Regardless of the initial meanings of things like "giving away the bride" etc. These traditions represent way in which we mark the passage from one part of life into another. It is also a way in which we formalize our committments in a public setting and how we share this with our friends, family and community at large. It is very easy to be snide and say, "who needs it" but we do. The celebration, the declaration of commitment are important. It changes the nature of your relationship and should not be entered into lightly. As to the OP: I have no problem with a woman asking me to committ to her. A ring is just a token of that committment... the true committment is in the heart and jewelry or not, once you've made that committment, your countenance will change. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-27-2005, 08:24 AM	#30 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	You know, in hindsight I don't think I would have liked to have been asked. In my case it would never have been a problem because my SO would be the type to make stronger and stronger hints. That never happened. But given that the planning was doen by her and her mother, the asking and giving of a ring was the only part I had control over. I really enjoyed that part. There something to be said for being chedder headed and in love. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-27-2005, 09:19 AM	#33 (permalink)
Bob Biter Non-smokers die everyday Location: Montreal	Great post, Charlatan! You gave some good ideas that I might use when I decide to settle down. Abaya, I can understand why women might get impatient and start dropping hints, but not pop the question themselves. Perhaps, they're just as afraid as men, but would rather get into it (marriage) sooner, to get the stress over with and move on, while men are content with how things are beforehand and don't see that stress. __________________ A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

10-27-2005, 05:02 PM	#34 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Charlatan, your post was great and is, for the most part, how I feel about it as well. I think marriage can be a very important symbol/declaration/celebration of committment to one another. As for who asks, I'm pretty ambivalent about it. I will say though, regarding the possibility of asking before the other person is ready (brought up mostly in the context of the female asking), if you don't already know what the answer will genuinely be, I don't think you're at a point in your relationship where you should be considering marriage. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

10-27-2005, 08:51 PM	#36 (permalink)
Amnesia620 Forget me not... Location: See that dot on the map? I don't live there.	For me, being a total head-over-heels romantic, I don't know if I could see myself proposing to my guy. I always like to be the submissive one, my partner the dominant in most every sense. When I meet him, the one I'm to be with forever, then he'll be the one to ask me...if I'm never asked, then well, guess I'm going to be single until I pass away. I agree, for others, that things are different in this day and age and there is no rule book when it comes to the standards and roles of men and women. I think that it mostly has to do with personal preference. __________________ For example, I find that a lot of college girls are barbie doll carbon copies with few differences...Sadly, they're dumb, ditzy, immature, snotty, fake, or they are the gravitational center to orbiting drama. - Amnesia620

10-28-2005, 02:41 AM	#37 (permalink)
nightstuff Tilted Location: where polar bears walk the streets	I'm also a hopeless romantic, and I know that a) I want to be the one taking the lead and b) it has to be something memorable and very special feeling. Another thing, the wedding is of course a public thing, but the engagement i see as private. Doing things like inviting friends along to participate in the occassion just feels wrong for me...puts this weird pressure on her that i wouldnt want. Same thing with these sensational public displays, where the guy has the question popped via blimps or at a football game (makes nauseous face). Nope, I'm more the "while up in a cottage in the mountains, snowed in just the two of us" kind of guy.

11-10-2005, 09:02 AM	#38 (permalink)
OTK Upright Location: Ohio	I understand the wanting to be independant and strong, but I think if I was a chick a part of me would definetly say, "you bring home the moola for food and rent, and I will hang at home and watch movies." Sounds like a deal!

11-10-2005, 09:42 AM	#39 (permalink)
Dragonknight Insane Location: Hawaii	I would not have minded my wife asking me to marry her one bit. I knew she wanted to ask me she wanted it really bad (I was leaving to Iraq). I also knew she wasn't going to ask. (I waited to see if she would) So I asked her the first chance that I had some time to be at home with her. I didn't want to ask her, and have to leave back to work (we lived in three hours away from each other). __________________ Freedom is NOT Free.

11-10-2005, 10:22 AM	#40 (permalink)
little_tippler Leaning against the -Sun- Super Moderator Location: on the other side	I have to say that Charlatan's post hits the nail on the head for me. Marriage is not important, the commitment is. And it has to be meant, first and foremost, between the two people who make it. I don't think it's that important to make it public though I can see why it would help. so at risk of being repetitive, here's what I said in the Ladies' Lounge Thread about the OP there who wanted her SO to propose, which still stands IMO: what difference really, and practically, does being married make? I don't think it's fair to force him to do it, or give him an ultimatum. It's a case of what's more important to you - him, or the ring. If you want it to confirm some sort of status, then I think you want it for the wrong reasons. A much better approach if you really feel that strongly about him, is to propose to him yourself. You can always exchange "rings" later. I have a friend who did that with her SO. They went out and got each other plain silver rings, with an inscription along the lines of "I love you, I don't want to live without you" and the date. Much more romantic - demanding it is just aggressive. To answer the OP, I think it's possible if I wanted to get married in the future that I would propose. I would only do that if I was sure the answer would be yes and he just hadn't thought to ask. __________________ Whether we write or speak or do but look We are ever unapparent. What we are Cannot be transfused into word or book. Our soul from us is infinitely far. However much we give our thoughts the will To be our soul and gesture it abroad, Our hearts are incommunicable still. In what we show ourselves we are ignored. The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged By any skill of thought or trick of seeming. Unto our very selves we are abridged When we would utter to our thought our being. We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams, And each to each other dreams of others' dreams. Fernando Pessoa, 1918 Last edited by little_tippler; 11-10-2005 at 10:33 AM..