Bf camping w/out me... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

abaya · 05-23-2005, 12:25 PM

(Pardon the long story... if you get bored, skip to the last couple of paragraphs for the important questions.)

Many of you know about me and ktspktsp. He is currently in PA, and I had to fly home to WA for 10 days to spend time w/my family. He couldn't come because of work (last year he was still a student, so he came home with me several times). It so happened that the one weekend we'll be apart is Memorial Day weekend, which is sad because we'd been hoping to spend more time camping before I leave for Africa on June 12th (will be gone for 2.5 months).

At one point several months ago, when I bought the tickets, I told him there was a great concert at a great venue (the Gorge), and that if he flew out for the 3-day weekend we could go camping there and see the concert. He looked into it briefly but said it was too expensive (over $300)... this also sorta bothered me since he has spent as much (or more) money on other things that he enjoys doing, without a second thought, and it seemed he just didn't want the hassle of flying out for the weekend. But that's not the main issue, and I was trying hard to not let his spending decisions get to me.

Fast-forward to last weekend. We had a wonderful night out with friends, and he was helping me (very graciously) to pack up my apartment and move out before I flew home to Seattle. He had been saying that he wished we could be together on Memorial Day weekend, and that he didn't realize until now that it was a 3-day weekend. I didn't understand that, since we had talked about it earlier, but I let it go and said I would miss him, too.

He then says that he and one of my ex-roommates (a relatively close friend) were thinking of going camping, since she would be close by and bored as well.

I tried to be fine with it for a little bit, but then I started asking if other people would be going along (he wasn't sure yet)... and he saw my red flags going up. This turned into an hours-long discussion of why it made me uncomfortable to imagine him going camping, and specifically sleeping next to and waking up with (on our inflatable mattress) another woman. I tried to express my feelings, rational and irrational; a lot of it has to do with not trusting the woman, because I've seen her make questionable decisions in the past. Part of it, I hate to admit, is that I know my bf liked her at a point before we got together. And also that I know they'll be spending more time together this summer while I am away for so long, possibly camping again.

He really felt that I wasn't trusting him, which is valid enough. I felt like my mother accusing me of things I hadn't done, or had no intention of doing. But I couldn't control my reaction; for me it just hurt because in my mind, camping and sharing a tent and mattress with someone of the opposite sex is something I've only done with him, and something that I associate with intimacy and sex with one person. I would not do that with another guy, even if my bf was fine with it... it's just one of my boundaries. He said that I'm being selfish, but that if I am really uncomfortable with it, he would tell our friend that I'm not okay with it and they wouldn't go... but that he would be irritated by being held back from doing something fun.

So I am trying really hard to be okay with this, because I don't want to be the type to "own" someone and keep him from enjoying something just because I freak out about it. I really appreciate him telling me about it beforehand, and listening to me go on and on about how I feel. I am also having a really hard time because I thought we had the same standards for this kind of thing, and now I'm starting to feel like a jealous prude and that we aren't compatible in this sense. That he'll start to resent me over the long-term. But it is how I feel... I don't know how to change it. I don't mind him doing something else with our friend during the day, but to me the line is drawn at sharing a bed (in my mind) with her when I am not there.

The other half of me wants to just let him do whatever he wants, and try to deal with it from my side of things... even if I feel really hurt, then to just try my hardest to trust him, and not assume he'll be like my past boyfriends (all of whom ended up hooking up with one of my friends after getting bored with me). I just feel so weighed down by my self, and I find myself wishing we just had our boundaries in common again so this wouldn't even be an issue.

I am not afraid of something out-of-control happening, but I am more afraid of the little things... gradual increase of intimacy, which happens when spending lots of time close together with someone in a small space and talking while falling asleep, etc etc... b/c that's what always killed my other relationships. The guy never saw it coming... he just spent more and more "innocent" time with someone else, not having sex, and after a while, our emotional connection and relationship had crumbled.

What do you guys think? I know some of you will think I am insane for being so possessive... and believe me, I see myself that way too... I just don't know how else to be, since we're both trying to be honest and communicative.

Does anyone else feel uncomfortable with the idea of their significant other going camping alone with someone of the opposite sex when you are out of town? Please be honest, either way... I need some advice and direction here.

Cynthetiq · 05-23-2005, 12:36 PM

the only misstep that I see here is that he didn't disclose it from the beginning when he said he was going camping with other friends that it wasn't just guys and that there could be a potential coed situation for sleeping accommodations.

This is where the road meets the rubber, where we must walk the talk we put of saying that we are fine with things and having to actually be fine with them.

And sometimes, we're just downright human beings, and it feels sucky, no more explanation needed and hug given.

abaya · 05-23-2005, 12:41 PM

Cyn, he did disclose from the beginning that he was going camping with our female friend... he said there might be another guy going along, but that it wasn't sure. So there wasn't any misstep at all, in that sense.

But you're right... here's the thing, I don't know if I ever talked the talk of being fine with things, since he knows how I am and I know how he is about certain things. We are both sucky human beings about particular things, and this is one of them for me. That's my predicament.

How to rise above my gut feelings?

veruca · 05-23-2005, 12:41 PM

I think it is totally inappropriate for him to go camping alone and share a bed with another woman. You are not being unreasonable at all, especially if they have a past history of possibly liking each other.

If they were going with other people, I don't feel it would be a problem at all, but they're not. It is disrespectful of you and your relationship for him to go and do something that makes you so uncomfortable.

I am the most non-jealous person EVER...but, there is no way in hell my husband would go on a trip alone with another woman.

MEAD · 05-23-2005, 12:42 PM

I know how you feel, because the similar situation put strain on my realtionship and was a factor in it ending. And it ended up that she did like him and wanted to be with him. Don't hate yourself for being jealous and possesive, he is putting you in a situation where you can do almost nothing but act that way. But in all honesty if he goes or not the damage has been done, he already wants to go and already doesnt understand why you cant be comfortable with it, and still wants to go. It doesnt really matter now if he goes or not. So I say let him go. Leave the decision up to him, and if he doesn't act how you think is appropriate then you will have some issues to settle. You are already hurt, keeping him from going when he wants to go will not make you feel any better, your trust in him has already been shaken, tell him that, and see if he doesnt try and make it up to you.

Cynthetiq · 05-23-2005, 12:53 PM

LOL I reversed it in my head... I got the guy going and the girl being iffy...

Well we can never talk of every permutation and situation, they change all the time. I'm okay with this, but not with that or this in variation A and C. We all tend to generalize a little bit to some degree, and then those generalizations can also lead to some assumption on the recieving end.

But let's focus on you because that's what we can control and effect change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

But you're right... here's the thing, I don't know if I ever talked the talk of being fine with things, since he knows how I am and I know how he is about certain things. We are both sucky human beings about particular things, and this is one of them for me. That's my predicament. How to rise above my gut feelings?

First I'm going to give a more hardline answer (I'm trying to see if I sometimes don't look before I leap)
While you do try to not put the fox in the chicken coop, it's no surprise when the fox does eat the chickens. Since we are talking human beings, ultimately you have to trust him and her since you making an ultimatum will force a more negative outcome.

------

He does know that this is a particular hot issue for you? Is camping an intimate bonding activity for you two even when you go with other people?

ShaniFaye · 05-23-2005, 12:54 PM

with the circle of friends we have I wouldnt have a problem with it at all, even sleeping on the same mattress, but thats our friends and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that nothing untowards would go on. If I couldnt do something I wouldnt stop Dave from going and having fun just because a female friend, but thats us, and thats the way our relationship is and thats the way our friends are.

I can understand if he's hurt by the reaction you had, because it kind of does look like you dont trust him to go and for nothing to happen. Im not in anyway bashing how you feel, I am aware lots of people in the world arent of the same mindset as me, but to me its as easy as knowing the person Im in love with and knowing he'd never do anything to jeapordize it.

snowy · 05-23-2005, 01:07 PM

Is it human to feel as you do, abaya? Sure. Is it normal? You bet. Is it unreasonable? Nope. Is it hard to deal with? Yeah, but if your desire is to protect your relationship and move forward, identifying your jealousy and discomfort for what it is is the first step, and the second is to just trust that your S.O. will do the right thing and make the right choice--you could tell him "I'm not comfortable with you going with her as I know you have had a history of liking her and I don't trust how she will act around you. I am uncomfortable with the fact that the two of you will be alone and sharing a tent together--in my mind that is an act of intimacy. I'm not telling you NOT to go, I'm just sharing with you some of the things that are making me uncomfortable about the situation, and I would appreciate it if there is something you could do to change it." For example, you might share with him that you would be more comfortable if he took another friend along or they slept in separate tents.

Abaya, I know plenty of girls who would put their foot down and tell him it's completely unacceptable to go--myself included, so this is sticky for me. I did have an S.O. who went off on a trip with another girl--a girl he used to like--with other people and ended up cheating on me with her. But you guys seem to have a generally healthy relationship, so I think you can work through this. Good luck.

cellophanedeity · 05-23-2005, 01:08 PM

My love and I have been together for a long time, and we trust eachother deeply. Both of us are close friends with most of our exes, and we get together with them often, even alone.

Mind you, I wouldn't be comfortable with Simon going camping alone with another woman. Not because I don't trust him, or even who he would be going with. Sleeping next to someone can be intimate, even if that's not the intention.

I'd let him go though. If it's a one-time thing and him and this girl are close friends, then I don't really see the harm. It would be a little exercise in trust. It would drive me crazy while he was away, but I'd need to trust him. There's not much else I could do.

And abaya, you're not insane. You're just human.

maleficent · 05-23-2005, 01:15 PM

You've got a lot of history with other incidents that would lead you to beleive that bad things might happen. Ask your self one question... Has he ever given you a reason not to trust him? What about your friend?

A less honest person, or a person who was up to something, I wouldn't think would be as honest as he's been. Sounds like he sees her as a friend and nothing more.

Take a look in the mirror. You are a beautiful woman, who is also very intelligent and has a ton of stuff going for her. Unless he's a complete moron (and why would you want to be with him if he was) he's not going to throw that away for a fling. Have faith in yourself that right now, at this point in your life, with this particular guy, are worthy of his faithfulness. Whatever happened in the past, you were a different person and they were different guys.

When you go off to Africa for your wonderful trip, are you going to spend that time wondering and worrying about what he's doing? If you can trust him for 2 1/2 months, give him the benefit of the doubt for a weekend. Have faith in yourself that you are worth it.

StormBerlin · 05-23-2005, 01:24 PM

Ok, take this from someone who's been in your boyfriends shoes. Camping with a member of the opposite sex (when there's only two of you) is innapropriate when he has a girlfriend. I don't care what his intentions are, it's just not appropriate. he shouldn't be spending any kind of quality time with another girl alone while he is with you. especially if he's had feelings for this girl before you guys started dating. you were right to question it, and if he still goes after knowing how you feel about it then that should tell you a lot about his character.

Sugar&Spice · 05-23-2005, 02:06 PM

I would not feel comfortable if I were in your shoes. You acted the same way I would've. I wouldn't care if they were going with a group of people, but I wouldn't want them sharing a bed no matter what. Plus, he used to like her. I think I would explain to him how the whole situation made me feel uncomfortable and let him decide for himself what to do. How would he feel if the situation was reversed? If he still decides to go after knowing how you feel, then maybe you guys should sit down and have a little chit chat.

abaya · 05-23-2005, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellophanedeity

I'd let him go though. If it's a one-time thing and him and this girl are close friends, then I don't really see the harm. It would be a little exercise in trust. It would drive me crazy while he was away, but I'd need to trust him. There's not much else I could do.

This is pretty much the conclusion I've come to (also after talking w/my dad before coming back to read all these replies; thank you, all!!!). The only issue is, it may not be a one-time thing... I will be gone for 2.5 months, and my bf plans to go camping more (I encouraged him to do so, but did not know he offered to go with our female friend over the summer... it hadn't even entered my head, since I always assumed he'd go with a group, or at least with another guy).

So it may be something that happens more times... and that is where some of my fear comes from. I trust him enough about not doing something major (fooling around or something)... but for me, yes, sharing a tent and especially a mattress IS INTIMATE, I don't care if you're doing it with Mother Teresa. And to me you cannot help but become more intimate, even just emotionally, with someone that you do this with. So I don't fear something huge happening, but I fear the emotional bond that may develop in my absence, esp. if this happens many times over the summer. And my fear is not irrational, because I've seen it happen so many times (even in myself), so I have solid data to back up my gut feelings. That's why I don't put myself in those situations anymore, and that's why most of you guys have learned to not put the fox in the chicken house, so to speak. Does that mean I sacrifice some of my fun because of a relationship? Well, yeah. And I don't resent the other person, either... to me it's not a control issue, it's a respect and honoring of the relationship issue.

My dad was really helpful here. My dad has major resentment of my mother for trying to control him, and that's a red-button issue for me to avoid... I will not control ktspktsp, no matter what. My dad also said that in his 20s he made a lot of careless, naive mistakes that cost him relationships with women... because he thought he knew better and that he was less human than he actually was. My dad says now that there is no way in hell he would go camping with another woman while dating someone else, even if it was the most innocent thing in the world... he called it playing with fire. So basically, even though my dad resented my mom for her trust issues, he is backing me up on this one.

On the other hand, my dad and I agree that I have no control here, and I cannot assume any. I have to let go and just TRUST, because to do anything else would create resentment and greater issues. I have told ktspktsp how I feel, in great depth, and I know that's not gonna change anytime soon (even if I try to make it change)... it's too deeply-rooted.

However, I do not want to lay a guilt trip on him that makes him not go because of that. I want him to decide what he'll decide, and it's my (and our) responsibility to deal with afterwards. I trust him to be honest with me, no matter what (about physical and/or emotional boundary-crossing), and that's what it comes down to. Our relationship is built on honesty and communication, and I want that to continue regardless of circumstances that may test us.

abaya · 05-23-2005, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Since we are talking human beings, ultimately you have to trust him and her since you making an ultimatum will force a more negative outcome.

Yep, that is what it's coming down to. I see this clearly, and I know that the greater danger is creating resentment. So I am working towards letting it go and dealing w/it on my own.

abaya · 05-23-2005, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Unless he's a complete moron (and why would you want to be with him if he was) he's not going to throw that away for a fling. Have faith in yourself that right now, at this point in your life, with this particular guy, are worthy of his faithfulness. Whatever happened in the past, you were a different person and they were different guys. -snip- Have faith in yourself that you are worth it.

Mal, this is what I am also trying to hold on to. Confidence in myself rather than my insecurity (based on real experiences). He has been fighting my insecurities for the last year, and this will just be another proving ground for us. I am trying to take the positive view, even though I appreciate all of you understanding my point of view. It means A LOT to me to hear you guys' words.

maleficent · 05-23-2005, 02:53 PM

If he's been dealing with your and what you beleive your insecurities to be (they are usually not as obvious as we think they are) for a year... it's clear to me he thinks you are a keeper...

and the cold hard truth time... if he's going to cheat, he's going to cheat... the opportunity would make itself available and he probably wouldn't tell you the who and the where... which is why I beleive this is innocent...

We love ya, and we'll tell him how great you are. and we'll also beat the stuffing out of him (or pluck his eyebrows out one by one) if he does hurt you... You can tell him I said so...

spindles · 05-23-2005, 03:03 PM

The fact he told you who he was going with would make it seem to me that this is innocent - he is being up front about it.

I have been away with other women camping without my wife - you just have to trust him (or not...). In the end, if your relationship is strong enough it will survive this weekend and the 2.5 months apart.

chickentribs · 05-23-2005, 03:12 PM

Abaya, my ex would go with guy friends all the time to concerts and stay in hotels together instead of driving home late, etc. I believe that you have to let people make their own decisions because if they have weak character, you won't change that. The end result becomes a matter of when, not if. This is part of loving somebody, trusting he is the guy who will protect and care for your relationship whether you are around or not. Give him the opportunity to show you his love back.

With that said, this stood out to me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

He said that I'm being selfish, but that if I am really uncomfortable with it, he would tell our friend that I'm not okay with it and they wouldn't go... but that he would be irritated by being held back from doing something fun.

I am very big on loyalty, probably over-sensitive to it. If he didn't go on the trip, he doesn't need to explain to your friend that it is your issue. First, it looks like a thinly veiled threat to "tell on you" and look like a victim to whoever will listen. Second, trust issues in your relationship aren't for your friends to mull over, and a level of privacy should be expected from each other in an intimate relationship.

Can you tell it hit a button??

I am sure it will be fine! One last thing - I double Cyn's statement, well put!

Quote:

And sometimes, we're just downright human beings, and it feels sucky, no more explanation needed and hug given

tecoyah · 05-23-2005, 03:56 PM

..............communicate...............

shakran · 05-23-2005, 04:52 PM

I suppose I'm fairly conservative when it comes to relationships. If he's with you, then he's with you. He does not go out in the middle of nowhere and sleep in the same bed as another woman. Whether he means to cheat or not, the temptation will be there- a temptation that would not exist if he were not in the middle of nowhere with a woman lying 6 inches from him.

I'm also troubled by the fact that he has a choice to either go camping in the middle of nowhere with this other woman, or to go camping in the middle of nowhere with you, and he is choosing her.

Whether he intends to cheat or not, whether he actually does cheat or not, he is willingly putting himself into a situation where not only is cheating a distinct possibility, but one which it is very likely that you will have bad feelings about.

He needs to be more sensitive to your feelings.

abaya · 05-23-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickentribs

If he didn't go on the trip, he doesn't need to explain to your friend that it is your issue. First, it looks like a thinly veiled threat to "tell on you" and look like a victim to whoever will listen.

Yep ribs, this hit a button for me, too... but he says he doesn't want to lie to her, since she's his friend. He also said that it's my issue, not his, so he wants her to know that. I asked him if he could consider to be "our" issue, since he'd be making a decision to respect my feelings, but he said it was still mostly my problem and he wanted to make that clear. I told him that on the other hand, if he did go, and my family asked what he was up to that weekend (which they prob will), I would be pressed to tell them the truth... but at the same time, I feel like it's safer to just say "he's hanging out with friends" and leave it at that, since essentially it comes down to the two of us, our communication, and our decisions, and other people don't have to know.

That said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickentribs

Second, trust issues in your relationship aren't for your friends to mull over, and a level of privacy should be expected from each other in an intimate relationship.

Heh, I think this is true, BUT!!... what's the TFP for, then?

I think outside opinions can be very insightful, and for me they bring me back to the bigger picture usually. So even though the decision comes down to two people, I think outside views can be helpful (if they are wise people).

Tec... we are doing a good job of that, I think. Communication is something we are always striving to do more of.

Demeter · 05-23-2005, 05:00 PM

Something gives me the feeling this isn't right. I am not a jealous person by any means, and I know my BF isn't either,
but there is no way in hell I would go camping & share a tent with a male friend (nevermind share a mattress!) and expect him to be okay with it in any way, shape, or form!
This reminds me of advice my sister gave a friend of ours who had been accused of fooling around on her husband...if you don't want people to make assumptions your reputation, don't put yourself in situations that look bad.

chickentribs · 05-23-2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Heh, I think this is true, BUT!!... what's the TFP for, then?

I think outside opinions can be very insightful, and for me they bring me back to the bigger picture usually. So even though the decision comes down to two people, I think outside views can be helpful (if they are wise people).

Damn. I knew you were going to call me out on that! I was considering that as I typed, but decided there is a big difference between our on-line friends and our in-live friends when it comes to privacy for the obvious reasons. I thought I could slip it by without any smell of hipocracy. Next time.

ktspktsp · 05-23-2005, 05:21 PM

Hi all,

Thanks for the valuable input. Abaya described the situation pretty accurately.

To clarify something, the issue here (I believe) is not that Abaya doubts my intentions, but that she's afraid of me gradually slipping into liking someone else.

I understand the issues she has with this.. But it makes me feel constrained, and frankly, not so trusted. I have trust in my feelings, though I know I'm human and no one is flawless. I'm also in my first and only relationship, so it is true that I'm not as "tested" by this stuff as I could be. But.. should all situations where there could be temptations be avoided? I don't have a definite answer to that question. But somehow having to downgrade friendships, for instance, doesn't feel like the right answer to me. And being sheltered from 'threats' makes me doubt the strength of the relationship.

But in all this though, I am committed to Abaya.

chickentribs, you do raise a good point. I guess part of my desire to tell our friend the facts is, aside from my dislike of lying, also due to some passive-agressiveness on the issue. I've decided that I will tell her that it's "our" decision if I have to do so. Since I would not go on with this if Abaya didn't feel OK with it.

I also don't feel like going on this trip with her anymore if no one else comes.. I would feel that Abaya is stressed all during that weekend (even if she decides she's OK with it), and I don't want that. In turn, I wouldn't enjoy the trip either because of this. The whole trip would become just weird to me.

Sweetpea · 05-23-2005, 05:48 PM

If you are committed but Not in an "open" relationship (where you do give each other permission to be intimate with other people) . . . then i don't see how sleeping in the same tent with another woman would be appropriate at all. It's just not.

If there were seperate tents involved, then it would be fine . . . but why the need to sleep in the same small tent? Is there a shortage of tents in the world?

Botton line:
If it's gonna cause stress, then just avoid it.

You and ktspktsp seem to be doing a great job of communicating and obviously are taking each other's feelings into account

Bravo on that

you're a great couple.

Sweetpea

chickentribs · 05-23-2005, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktspktsp

chickentribs, you do raise a good point. I guess part of my desire to tell our friend the facts is, aside from my dislike of lying, also due to some passive-agressiveness on the issue. I've decided that I will tell her that it's "our" decision if I have to do so. Since I would not go on with this if Abaya didn't feel OK with it.

Hey ktspktsp... What a stand-up guy

I can imagine that Abaya's looming trip this summer and the distance issue you guys are managing doesn't make any of this easier for either of you. I've been in a similar situation and all I have to offer is everything I did wrong! I will let you walk me through the right way to get through this when Abaya comes home to you from her trip, deal? Good luck with the new job, too!

abaya · 05-23-2005, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktspktsp

In turn, I wouldn't enjoy the trip either because of this. The whole trip would become just weird to me.

I just don't want him to be irritated with me or resent me for impinging on his freedom...

That sort of defeats the whole point.

Btw, I would say more but we are still right in the middle of discussing things, so I will get back to y'all. Thank you again, though... you have helped us both so much.

maleficent · 05-23-2005, 06:09 PM

I'm glad to see that you are both still talking, and more importantly, listening to each other...

xxSquirtxx · 05-23-2005, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veruca

I think it is totally inappropriate for him to go camping alone and share a bed with another woman. You are not being unreasonable at all, especially if they have a past history of possibly liking each other.

If they were going with other people, I don't feel it would be a problem at all, but they're not. It is disrespectful of you and your relationship for him to go and do something that makes you so uncomfortable.

I am the most non-jealous person EVER...but, there is no way in hell my husband would go on a trip alone with another woman.

I think Veruca nailed it.

iamnormal · 05-23-2005, 10:17 PM

Isn't the main problem here that ktspktsp makes rash decisions with little thought about how it effects the long term and others around him?

abaya · 05-24-2005, 12:16 AM

^ iamnormal... thanks for your candor. But do remember that you are talking about the person I love, and I would not be with someone who is consistently immature and out of line (I know that when I see that, since I made that mistake w/a different guy).

I will defend ktspktsp here and say that he does not always make rash decisions, at least no more than is to be expected at this stage in his life. We are both in different learning stages in that sense: for him, he has had major changes in the last 12 months of his life (first girlfriend + first sexual experience + first serious relationship, finishing MS thesis, first job + first serious job, first apartment alone, first car--which was a lemon and ended up being VERY stressful, and also doing all this in a foreign country and in his 3rd language), and I think he is bound to make some errors during all that change. That's a lot for one person to handle, and I think he has done it with relative grace (and especially with me watching/commenting on it all!).

For me, my changes are not "life" ones, since I've already been through much of what he's going through for the first time, but they are emotional ones; this is my first stable, long-term relationship (his too, but he is emotionally-stable by nature and had a good model of his parents to work from, which is the opposite of me), and he is helping me to grow in a healthy relational sense of trust and stability (hence why this camping issue became a big deal, because I was trying so hard to trust him but just couldn't get past the situation itself). Before we got together, I had become very cynical about relationships and felt that I might never meet someone whom I could grow with and trust. He is helping to transform my ability to love and be loved, which is no small feat.

The only thing is that once he makes a decision, ktspktsp is usually quite stubborn about defending it under fire (usually my fire, since I have already lived through a bit of life that he is now experiencing for the first time, and I am trying to save him some of the stress/mistakes that I went through). I can be stubborn too, but it is a slow process of learning to listen to each other and trust that the other person may see or feel something that we as individuals are blind to. If either of us makes rash decisions, we are learning to communicate about them and be as honest as possible in reaction... and while the reception may at first be negative, usually we come to a positive end, learn more about the other, and grow onward.

That's what happened over the last 2-3 days. We talked further tonight after both of us read this thread, and his irritation finally began to fade away as I explained some of my own boundary-crossings in the past, and the actions I took to reign myself/others in from temptation. I really feel that he did come to understand my feelings and concerns (you TFP'ers really helped, with your own reactions and experiences), and that he no longer resents me for feeling so strongly about this. We are beginning to really communicate about boundaries and where our differences are, and how to compromise for each other.

He only wished, in a way, that instead of being told what to do by others, that he had experienced himself firsthand the "mistake" of going camping, and then decided on his own that it was a bad idea. I don't have an answer for this... it's fair enough, and I'm a learn-by-experience person too, but I also think it's even wiser to learn from others' mistakes and save yourself the heartache and stress from the aftereffect.

To me, that's what makes a person different from the crowd... they are smart enough to listen and learn from others, not to screw it up themselves the first time. It takes real humility to do that, and humility is something I put at the very top of my list of things that I find downright sexy.

So I think we're on the right road again, and I'm so very grateful to have resolved this issue. Not to say there won't be others in the future! But this one seems to have played out well. Thank you again, TFP'ers.

Demeter · 05-24-2005, 12:27 AM

It takes a big man to admit something like that & to listen to anothers opinions, abaya. Tell him so for me!
I'm glad you two worked things out. Tecoyah hit it dead on.

abaya · 05-24-2005, 12:39 AM

^ Oh Demeter, you know it... he's a keeper!

We are working on growing up together as well as we can. While we're bound to step on a few toes along the way, situations like this one make me so very grateful for what we have, and for how much work we are willing to put into our love. We are becoming something extraordinary together!!

Johnny Rotten · 05-24-2005, 01:04 AM

Now all you have to do is tear your ex-roommate a new one. Because it takes two to tango.

abaya · 05-24-2005, 01:15 AM

^ Ha.

Well, I'm not going to say anything to her, at least not in the near future. She is quite new to "life situations" as well, and she is learning the hard way by making spontaneous decisions to the detriment of her relationships (she's done this many times in the last year, much more so than ktspktsp).

For me, the only "tearing her a new one" occurs in my decision to not trust her as much (less than I already did) in the future. Almost all of my other female friends would immediately see red flags in an offer to go camping, regardless of who made it, because they know me well and they know these situations. The ones I trust would say, "How does Abaya feel about this? Have you asked her yet? I wouldn't be comfortable in this situation if I were her..." (that's what I'd say to someone who asked me).

However, I will give our friend the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to inexperience and naivete. She may also have just assumed that since ktspktsp was asking her, that he must have already checked it out with me and that I was okay with it. She didn't ask him that though, so it was an iffy assumption on her part. She'll learn. I hope.

Cynthetiq · 05-24-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

He only wished, in a way, that instead of being told what to do by others, that he had experienced himself firsthand the "mistake" of going camping, and then decided on his own that it was a bad idea. I don't have an answer for this... it's fair enough, and I'm a learn-by-experience person too, but I also think it's even wiser to learn from others' mistakes and save yourself the heartache and stress from the aftereffect.

To me, that's what makes a person different from the crowd... they are smart enough to listen and learn from others, not to screw it up themselves the first time. It takes real humility to do that, and humility is something I put at the very top of my list of things that I find downright sexy.

So I think we're on the right road again, and I'm so very grateful to have resolved this issue. Not to say there won't be others in the future! But this one seems to have played out well. Thank you again, TFP'ers.

wonderful that you two are interacting and communicating, that's quite important. I do find it interesting that the couples who are here as couples and resolve things with community members helping hash out candidly different view points and positions.

I quoted the above part because I find that an interesting line that I tow as an older brother, mentor, model citizen.

There's a point in time where the rhetoric and verbiage of learning and wisdom giving stops and actions have to take place.

I wrestled with this most my life as my father put a large burden on my shoulders to be a good brother to my younger sister.

Some of what makes me more resilient than my sister is because I had to navigate and figure it out by myself without the benefit of any wisdom from others.

abaya · 05-24-2005, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Some of what makes me more resilient than my sister is because I had to navigate and figure it out by myself without the benefit of any wisdom from others.

Interesting, Cyn. Does that mean you made a lot of mistakes?

And did you end up advising your sister a lot, and that's why she isn't as resilient as you are?

For me, I am an only child so I had no sibling advice, but my parents laid a pretty heavy burden on me to be a good kid and to make them (esp. my mom) happy. I may have rebelled very slightly when I went to grad school (finally!), but even then I reigned myself in after a short time and a huge mistake.

This may become a threadjack, so maybe you or I should start a new one about which is better: wisdom via experience/mistakes, or via someone else imparting their experience/mistakes to you, and you being smart enough to listen to them.

JustJess · 05-24-2005, 12:09 PM

You two are really impressive. I thought Q and I communicated well! As a million people have said, your feelings are definitely valid, as are his, actually.
If it had been me, I would have said that the situation as it stood (just those two, and one mattress) made me uncomfortable for the high level of intimacy. If there were TWO mattresses and/or three people, I would be much more comfortable.

I'm sorry we ruined it a bit for ktspktsp, but I am so happy for you both that you can talk things out. There will be other camping trips.

Oh, and naive she might be... but she might not be either. I would agree that you should examine her motives in the future quite carefully. We women can be trickier even than what we ourselves imagine.

abaya · 05-24-2005, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

Oh, and naive she might be... but she might not be either. I would agree that you should examine her motives in the future quite carefully. We women can be trickier even than what we ourselves imagine.

Thank you for all that you said in your post, Jess. And yes, I completely agree with your point about women... I am just giving her the benefit of the doubt, which I have to do because she is my friend. For the last year I have been watching her, and have examined her motives each time, and I will do this until she proves her character is stronger by making good decisions over time. It doesn't mean I like her less, but that I just know her better. Way better, I think, than she knows me.

Men or women, sometimes we really don't know what we're doing... we just go about things without considering all the ramifications. That's when things happen, when we're being careless about other people's feelings, real or imagined. I've been guilty of it many, many times in the past, and that's what I told ktspktsp yesterday. Women are socially programmed to be as subtle as possible in their dealings with others... almost subtle beyond our own recognition, if we're not careful. I'm not a cynic, but I know myself, and I know many other women.

Lead543 · 05-24-2005, 03:28 PM

I've had a not really similar expierence at all, but it's a little bit like yours.

A few weeks ago my boyfriend mentioned a camping trip brought up by a fellow employee. When I asked who he replied *insert female name here* Now, my initial reaction was anger, I know how awesome my boyfriend is, most other people do too. Girls flirt with him, I accept that, as long as he doesn't reciporcate. The wheels were turning in my head and I wasn't too happy about that.

After a while, he said a group of them were going, no one would be sleeping in the same tent and now it's fine with me. However, if he was to go with just this one lady, he shouldn't expect to come back home to me.

I'm a little old fashioned in my views about relationships, it's okay to have same sex friends, but if you want to keep me around you have to keep them at a level that doesn't make me question.

Anyways, that's just my opinion.

05-23-2005, 12:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Bf camping w/out me... (Pardon the long story... if you get bored, skip to the last couple of paragraphs for the important questions.) Many of you know about me and ktspktsp. He is currently in PA, and I had to fly home to WA for 10 days to spend time w/my family. He couldn't come because of work (last year he was still a student, so he came home with me several times). It so happened that the one weekend we'll be apart is Memorial Day weekend, which is sad because we'd been hoping to spend more time camping before I leave for Africa on June 12th (will be gone for 2.5 months). At one point several months ago, when I bought the tickets, I told him there was a great concert at a great venue (the Gorge), and that if he flew out for the 3-day weekend we could go camping there and see the concert. He looked into it briefly but said it was too expensive (over $300)... this also sorta bothered me since he has spent as much (or more) money on other things that he enjoys doing, without a second thought, and it seemed he just didn't want the hassle of flying out for the weekend. But that's not the main issue, and I was trying hard to not let his spending decisions get to me. Fast-forward to last weekend. We had a wonderful night out with friends, and he was helping me (very graciously) to pack up my apartment and move out before I flew home to Seattle. He had been saying that he wished we could be together on Memorial Day weekend, and that he didn't realize until now that it was a 3-day weekend. I didn't understand that, since we had talked about it earlier, but I let it go and said I would miss him, too. He then says that he and one of my ex-roommates (a relatively close friend) were thinking of going camping, since she would be close by and bored as well. I tried to be fine with it for a little bit, but then I started asking if other people would be going along (he wasn't sure yet)... and he saw my red flags going up. This turned into an hours-long discussion of why it made me uncomfortable to imagine him going camping, and specifically sleeping next to and waking up with (on our inflatable mattress) another woman. I tried to express my feelings, rational and irrational; a lot of it has to do with not trusting the woman, because I've seen her make questionable decisions in the past. Part of it, I hate to admit, is that I know my bf liked her at a point before we got together. And also that I know they'll be spending more time together this summer while I am away for so long, possibly camping again. He really felt that I wasn't trusting him, which is valid enough. I felt like my mother accusing me of things I hadn't done, or had no intention of doing. But I couldn't control my reaction; for me it just hurt because in my mind, camping and sharing a tent and mattress with someone of the opposite sex is something I've only done with him, and something that I associate with intimacy and sex with one person. I would not do that with another guy, even if my bf was fine with it... it's just one of my boundaries. He said that I'm being selfish, but that if I am really uncomfortable with it, he would tell our friend that I'm not okay with it and they wouldn't go... but that he would be irritated by being held back from doing something fun. So I am trying really hard to be okay with this, because I don't want to be the type to "own" someone and keep him from enjoying something just because I freak out about it. I really appreciate him telling me about it beforehand, and listening to me go on and on about how I feel. I am also having a really hard time because I thought we had the same standards for this kind of thing, and now I'm starting to feel like a jealous prude and that we aren't compatible in this sense. That he'll start to resent me over the long-term. But it is how I feel... I don't know how to change it. I don't mind him doing something else with our friend during the day, but to me the line is drawn at sharing a bed (in my mind) with her when I am not there. The other half of me wants to just let him do whatever he wants, and try to deal with it from my side of things... even if I feel really hurt, then to just try my hardest to trust him, and not assume he'll be like my past boyfriends (all of whom ended up hooking up with one of my friends after getting bored with me). I just feel so weighed down by my self, and I find myself wishing we just had our boundaries in common again so this wouldn't even be an issue. I am not afraid of something out-of-control happening, but I am more afraid of the little things... gradual increase of intimacy, which happens when spending lots of time close together with someone in a small space and talking while falling asleep, etc etc... b/c that's what always killed my other relationships. The guy never saw it coming... he just spent more and more "innocent" time with someone else, not having sex, and after a while, our emotional connection and relationship had crumbled. What do you guys think? I know some of you will think I am insane for being so possessive... and believe me, I see myself that way too... I just don't know how else to be, since we're both trying to be honest and communicative. Does anyone else feel uncomfortable with the idea of their significant other going camping alone with someone of the opposite sex when you are out of town? Please be honest, either way... I need some advice and direction here. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran Last edited by abaya; 05-23-2005 at 12:28 PM..

05-23-2005, 12:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	the only misstep that I see here is that he didn't disclose it from the beginning when he said he was going camping with other friends that it wasn't just guys and that there could be a potential coed situation for sleeping accommodations. This is where the road meets the rubber, where we must walk the talk we put of saying that we are fine with things and having to actually be fine with them. And sometimes, we're just downright human beings, and it feels sucky, no more explanation needed and hug given. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

05-23-2005, 12:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Cyn, he did disclose from the beginning that he was going camping with our female friend... he said there might be another guy going along, but that it wasn't sure. So there wasn't any misstep at all, in that sense. But you're right... here's the thing, I don't know if I ever talked the talk of being fine with things, since he knows how I am and I know how he is about certain things. We are both sucky human beings about particular things, and this is one of them for me. That's my predicament. How to rise above my gut feelings? __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

05-23-2005, 12:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
veruca Psycho Location: 4 privet drive	I think it is totally inappropriate for him to go camping alone and share a bed with another woman. You are not being unreasonable at all, especially if they have a past history of possibly liking each other. If they were going with other people, I don't feel it would be a problem at all, but they're not. It is disrespectful of you and your relationship for him to go and do something that makes you so uncomfortable. I am the most non-jealous person EVER...but, there is no way in hell my husband would go on a trip alone with another woman. __________________ How you turned my world, you precious thing You starve and near exhaust me Everything I've done, I've done for you I move the stars for no one

05-23-2005, 12:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
MEAD Insane Location: South Florida	I know how you feel, because the similar situation put strain on my realtionship and was a factor in it ending. And it ended up that she did like him and wanted to be with him. Don't hate yourself for being jealous and possesive, he is putting you in a situation where you can do almost nothing but act that way. But in all honesty if he goes or not the damage has been done, he already wants to go and already doesnt understand why you cant be comfortable with it, and still wants to go. It doesnt really matter now if he goes or not. So I say let him go. Leave the decision up to him, and if he doesn't act how you think is appropriate then you will have some issues to settle. You are already hurt, keeping him from going when he wants to go will not make you feel any better, your trust in him has already been shaken, tell him that, and see if he doesnt try and make it up to you. __________________ Here are some phrases I'd like to be able to say, in all honesty, before I die. "That's it, send out the ninjas!" "So then I had to kill my way to the second floor."

05-23-2005, 12:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	with the circle of friends we have I wouldnt have a problem with it at all, even sleeping on the same mattress, but thats our friends and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that nothing untowards would go on. If I couldnt do something I wouldnt stop Dave from going and having fun just because a female friend, but thats us, and thats the way our relationship is and thats the way our friends are. I can understand if he's hurt by the reaction you had, because it kind of does look like you dont trust him to go and for nothing to happen. Im not in anyway bashing how you feel, I am aware lots of people in the world arent of the same mindset as me, but to me its as easy as knowing the person Im in love with and knowing he'd never do anything to jeapordize it. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

05-23-2005, 01:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Is it human to feel as you do, abaya? Sure. Is it normal? You bet. Is it unreasonable? Nope. Is it hard to deal with? Yeah, but if your desire is to protect your relationship and move forward, identifying your jealousy and discomfort for what it is is the first step, and the second is to just trust that your S.O. will do the right thing and make the right choice--you could tell him "I'm not comfortable with you going with her as I know you have had a history of liking her and I don't trust how she will act around you. I am uncomfortable with the fact that the two of you will be alone and sharing a tent together--in my mind that is an act of intimacy. I'm not telling you NOT to go, I'm just sharing with you some of the things that are making me uncomfortable about the situation, and I would appreciate it if there is something you could do to change it." For example, you might share with him that you would be more comfortable if he took another friend along or they slept in separate tents. Abaya, I know plenty of girls who would put their foot down and tell him it's completely unacceptable to go--myself included, so this is sticky for me. I did have an S.O. who went off on a trip with another girl--a girl he used to like--with other people and ended up cheating on me with her. But you guys seem to have a generally healthy relationship, so I think you can work through this. Good luck. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

05-23-2005, 01:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
cellophanedeity Heliotrope Location: A warm room	My love and I have been together for a long time, and we trust eachother deeply. Both of us are close friends with most of our exes, and we get together with them often, even alone. Mind you, I wouldn't be comfortable with Simon going camping alone with another woman. Not because I don't trust him, or even who he would be going with. Sleeping next to someone can be intimate, even if that's not the intention. I'd let him go though. If it's a one-time thing and him and this girl are close friends, then I don't really see the harm. It would be a little exercise in trust. It would drive me crazy while he was away, but I'd need to trust him. There's not much else I could do. And abaya, you're not insane. You're just human.

05-23-2005, 01:15 PM	#10 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	You've got a lot of history with other incidents that would lead you to beleive that bad things might happen. Ask your self one question... Has he ever given you a reason not to trust him? What about your friend? A less honest person, or a person who was up to something, I wouldn't think would be as honest as he's been. Sounds like he sees her as a friend and nothing more. Take a look in the mirror. You are a beautiful woman, who is also very intelligent and has a ton of stuff going for her. Unless he's a complete moron (and why would you want to be with him if he was) he's not going to throw that away for a fling. Have faith in yourself that right now, at this point in your life, with this particular guy, are worthy of his faithfulness. Whatever happened in the past, you were a different person and they were different guys. When you go off to Africa for your wonderful trip, are you going to spend that time wondering and worrying about what he's doing? If you can trust him for 2 1/2 months, give him the benefit of the doubt for a weekend. Have faith in yourself that you are worth it. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

05-23-2005, 01:24 PM	#11 (permalink)
StormBerlin Happy as a hippo Location: Southern California	Ok, take this from someone who's been in your boyfriends shoes. Camping with a member of the opposite sex (when there's only two of you) is innapropriate when he has a girlfriend. I don't care what his intentions are, it's just not appropriate. he shouldn't be spending any kind of quality time with another girl alone while he is with you. especially if he's had feelings for this girl before you guys started dating. you were right to question it, and if he still goes after knowing how you feel about it then that should tell you a lot about his character. __________________ "if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

05-23-2005, 02:06 PM	#12 (permalink)
Sugar&Spice Psycho	I would not feel comfortable if I were in your shoes. You acted the same way I would've. I wouldn't care if they were going with a group of people, but I wouldn't want them sharing a bed no matter what. Plus, he used to like her. I think I would explain to him how the whole situation made me feel uncomfortable and let him decide for himself what to do. How would he feel if the situation was reversed? If he still decides to go after knowing how you feel, then maybe you guys should sit down and have a little chit chat. __________________ -Speak your mind even if your voice shakes

05-23-2005, 02:53 PM	#16 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	If he's been dealing with your and what you beleive your insecurities to be (they are usually not as obvious as we think they are) for a year... it's clear to me he thinks you are a keeper... and the cold hard truth time... if he's going to cheat, he's going to cheat... the opportunity would make itself available and he probably wouldn't tell you the who and the where... which is why I beleive this is innocent... We love ya, and we'll tell him how great you are. and we'll also beat the stuffing out of him (or pluck his eyebrows out one by one) if he does hurt you... You can tell him I said so... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

05-23-2005, 03:03 PM	#17 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	The fact he told you who he was going with would make it seem to me that this is innocent - he is being up front about it. I have been away with other women camping without my wife - you just have to trust him (or not...). In the end, if your relationship is strong enough it will survive this weekend and the 2.5 months apart. __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

05-23-2005, 03:56 PM	#19 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	..............communicate............... __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

05-23-2005, 04:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	I suppose I'm fairly conservative when it comes to relationships. If he's with you, then he's with you. He does not go out in the middle of nowhere and sleep in the same bed as another woman. Whether he means to cheat or not, the temptation will be there- a temptation that would not exist if he were not in the middle of nowhere with a woman lying 6 inches from him. I'm also troubled by the fact that he has a choice to either go camping in the middle of nowhere with this other woman, or to go camping in the middle of nowhere with you, and he is choosing her. Whether he intends to cheat or not, whether he actually does cheat or not, he is willingly putting himself into a situation where not only is cheating a distinct possibility, but one which it is very likely that you will have bad feelings about. He needs to be more sensitive to your feelings.

05-23-2005, 05:00 PM	#22 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	Something gives me the feeling this isn't right. I am not a jealous person by any means, and I know my BF isn't either, but there is no way in hell I would go camping & share a tent with a male friend (nevermind share a mattress!) and expect him to be okay with it in any way, shape, or form! This reminds me of advice my sister gave a friend of ours who had been accused of fooling around on her husband...if you don't want people to make assumptions your reputation, don't put yourself in situations that look bad. __________________ I am not bound to please thee with my answers. William Shakespeare

05-23-2005, 05:21 PM	#24 (permalink)
ktspktsp Addict Location: Reykjavik, Iceland	Hi all, Thanks for the valuable input. Abaya described the situation pretty accurately. To clarify something, the issue here (I believe) is not that Abaya doubts my intentions, but that she's afraid of me gradually slipping into liking someone else. I understand the issues she has with this.. But it makes me feel constrained, and frankly, not so trusted. I have trust in my feelings, though I know I'm human and no one is flawless. I'm also in my first and only relationship, so it is true that I'm not as "tested" by this stuff as I could be. But.. should all situations where there could be temptations be avoided? I don't have a definite answer to that question. But somehow having to downgrade friendships, for instance, doesn't feel like the right answer to me. And being sheltered from 'threats' makes me doubt the strength of the relationship. But in all this though, I am committed to Abaya. chickentribs, you do raise a good point. I guess part of my desire to tell our friend the facts is, aside from my dislike of lying, also due to some passive-agressiveness on the issue. I've decided that I will tell her that it's "our" decision if I have to do so. Since I would not go on with this if Abaya didn't feel OK with it. I also don't feel like going on this trip with her anymore if no one else comes.. I would feel that Abaya is stressed all during that weekend (even if she decides she's OK with it), and I don't want that. In turn, I wouldn't enjoy the trip either because of this. The whole trip would become just weird to me.

05-23-2005, 05:48 PM	#25 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	If you are committed but Not in an "open" relationship (where you do give each other permission to be intimate with other people) . . . then i don't see how sleeping in the same tent with another woman would be appropriate at all. It's just not. If there were seperate tents involved, then it would be fine . . . but why the need to sleep in the same small tent? Is there a shortage of tents in the world? Botton line: If it's gonna cause stress, then just avoid it. You and ktspktsp seem to be doing a great job of communicating and obviously are taking each other's feelings into account Bravo on that you're a great couple. Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

05-23-2005, 06:09 PM	#28 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I'm glad to see that you are both still talking, and more importantly, listening to each other... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

05-23-2005, 10:17 PM	#30 (permalink)
iamnormal Addict Location: In the id	Isn't the main problem here that ktspktsp makes rash decisions with little thought about how it effects the long term and others around him?

05-24-2005, 12:16 AM	#31 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	^ iamnormal... thanks for your candor. But do remember that you are talking about the person I love, and I would not be with someone who is consistently immature and out of line (I know that when I see that, since I made that mistake w/a different guy). I will defend ktspktsp here and say that he does not always make rash decisions, at least no more than is to be expected at this stage in his life. We are both in different learning stages in that sense: for him, he has had major changes in the last 12 months of his life (first girlfriend + first sexual experience + first serious relationship, finishing MS thesis, first job + first serious job, first apartment alone, first car--which was a lemon and ended up being VERY stressful, and also doing all this in a foreign country and in his 3rd language), and I think he is bound to make some errors during all that change. That's a lot for one person to handle, and I think he has done it with relative grace (and especially with me watching/commenting on it all!). For me, my changes are not "life" ones, since I've already been through much of what he's going through for the first time, but they are emotional ones; this is my first stable, long-term relationship (his too, but he is emotionally-stable by nature and had a good model of his parents to work from, which is the opposite of me), and he is helping me to grow in a healthy relational sense of trust and stability (hence why this camping issue became a big deal, because I was trying so hard to trust him but just couldn't get past the situation itself). Before we got together, I had become very cynical about relationships and felt that I might never meet someone whom I could grow with and trust. He is helping to transform my ability to love and be loved, which is no small feat. The only thing is that once he makes a decision, ktspktsp is usually quite stubborn about defending it under fire (usually my fire, since I have already lived through a bit of life that he is now experiencing for the first time, and I am trying to save him some of the stress/mistakes that I went through). I can be stubborn too, but it is a slow process of learning to listen to each other and trust that the other person may see or feel something that we as individuals are blind to. If either of us makes rash decisions, we are learning to communicate about them and be as honest as possible in reaction... and while the reception may at first be negative, usually we come to a positive end, learn more about the other, and grow onward. That's what happened over the last 2-3 days. We talked further tonight after both of us read this thread, and his irritation finally began to fade away as I explained some of my own boundary-crossings in the past, and the actions I took to reign myself/others in from temptation. I really feel that he did come to understand my feelings and concerns (you TFP'ers really helped, with your own reactions and experiences), and that he no longer resents me for feeling so strongly about this. We are beginning to really communicate about boundaries and where our differences are, and how to compromise for each other. He only wished, in a way, that instead of being told what to do by others, that he had experienced himself firsthand the "mistake" of going camping, and then decided on his own that it was a bad idea. I don't have an answer for this... it's fair enough, and I'm a learn-by-experience person too, but I also think it's even wiser to learn from others' mistakes and save yourself the heartache and stress from the aftereffect. To me, that's what makes a person different from the crowd... they are smart enough to listen and learn from others, not to screw it up themselves the first time. It takes real humility to do that, and humility is something I put at the very top of my list of things that I find downright sexy. So I think we're on the right road again, and I'm so very grateful to have resolved this issue. Not to say there won't be others in the future! But this one seems to have played out well. Thank you again, TFP'ers. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

05-24-2005, 12:27 AM	#32 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	It takes a big man to admit something like that & to listen to anothers opinions, abaya. Tell him so for me! I'm glad you two worked things out. Tecoyah hit it dead on. __________________ I am not bound to please thee with my answers. William Shakespeare

05-24-2005, 12:39 AM	#33 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	^ Oh Demeter, you know it... he's a keeper! We are working on growing up together as well as we can. While we're bound to step on a few toes along the way, situations like this one make me so very grateful for what we have, and for how much work we are willing to put into our love. We are becoming something extraordinary together!! __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

05-24-2005, 01:04 AM	#34 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	Now all you have to do is tear your ex-roommate a new one. Because it takes two to tango. __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

05-24-2005, 01:15 AM	#35 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	^ Ha. Well, I'm not going to say anything to her, at least not in the near future. She is quite new to "life situations" as well, and she is learning the hard way by making spontaneous decisions to the detriment of her relationships (she's done this many times in the last year, much more so than ktspktsp). For me, the only "tearing her a new one" occurs in my decision to not trust her as much (less than I already did) in the future. Almost all of my other female friends would immediately see red flags in an offer to go camping, regardless of who made it, because they know me well and they know these situations. The ones I trust would say, "How does Abaya feel about this? Have you asked her yet? I wouldn't be comfortable in this situation if I were her..." (that's what I'd say to someone who asked me). However, I will give our friend the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to inexperience and naivete. She may also have just assumed that since ktspktsp was asking her, that he must have already checked it out with me and that I was okay with it. She didn't ask him that though, so it was an iffy assumption on her part. She'll learn. I hope. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

05-24-2005, 12:09 PM	#38 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	You two are really impressive. I thought Q and I communicated well! As a million people have said, your feelings are definitely valid, as are his, actually. If it had been me, I would have said that the situation as it stood (just those two, and one mattress) made me uncomfortable for the high level of intimacy. If there were TWO mattresses and/or three people, I would be much more comfortable. I'm sorry we ruined it a bit for ktspktsp, but I am so happy for you both that you can talk things out. There will be other camping trips. Oh, and naive she might be... but she might not be either. I would agree that you should examine her motives in the future quite carefully. We women can be trickier even than what we ourselves imagine. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

05-24-2005, 03:28 PM	#40 (permalink)
Lead543 Registered User Location: Calgary	I've had a not really similar expierence at all, but it's a little bit like yours. A few weeks ago my boyfriend mentioned a camping trip brought up by a fellow employee. When I asked who he replied insert female name here Now, my initial reaction was anger, I know how awesome my boyfriend is, most other people do too. Girls flirt with him, I accept that, as long as he doesn't reciporcate. The wheels were turning in my head and I wasn't too happy about that. After a while, he said a group of them were going, no one would be sleeping in the same tent and now it's fine with me. However, if he was to go with just this one lady, he shouldn't expect to come back home to me. I'm a little old fashioned in my views about relationships, it's okay to have same sex friends, but if you want to keep me around you have to keep them at a level that doesn't make me question. Anyways, that's just my opinion.