Bf camping w/out me...
 

(Pardon the long story... if you get bored, skip to the last couple of paragraphs for the important questions.)

Many of you know about me and ktspktsp. He is currently in PA, and I had to fly home to WA for 10 days to spend time w/my family. He couldn't come because of work (last year he was still a student, so he came home with me several times). It so happened that the one weekend we'll be apart is Memorial Day weekend, which is sad because we'd been hoping to spend more time camping before I leave for Africa on June 12th (will be gone for 2.5 months).

At one point several months ago, when I bought the tickets, I told him there was a great concert at a great venue (the Gorge), and that if he flew out for the 3-day weekend we could go camping there and see the concert. He looked into it briefly but said it was too expensive (over $300)... this also sorta bothered me since he has spent as much (or more) money on other things that he enjoys doing, without a second thought, and it seemed he just didn't want the hassle of flying out for the weekend. But that's not the main issue, and I was trying hard to not let his spending decisions get to me.

Fast-forward to last weekend. We had a wonderful night out with friends, and he was helping me (very graciously) to pack up my apartment and move out before I flew home to Seattle. He had been saying that he wished we could be together on Memorial Day weekend, and that he didn't realize until now that it was a 3-day weekend. I didn't understand that, since we had talked about it earlier, but I let it go and said I would miss him, too.

He then says that he and one of my ex-roommates (a relatively close friend) were thinking of going camping, since she would be close by and bored as well.

I tried to be fine with it for a little bit, but then I started asking if other people would be going along (he wasn't sure yet)... and he saw my red flags going up. This turned into an hours-long discussion of why it made me uncomfortable to imagine him going camping, and specifically sleeping next to and waking up with (on our inflatable mattress) another woman. I tried to express my feelings, rational and irrational; a lot of it has to do with not trusting the woman, because I've seen her make questionable decisions in the past. Part of it, I hate to admit, is that I know my bf liked her at a point before we got together. And also that I know they'll be spending more time together this summer while I am away for so long, possibly camping again.

He really felt that I wasn't trusting him, which is valid enough. I felt like my mother accusing me of things I hadn't done, or had no intention of doing. But I couldn't control my reaction; for me it just hurt because in my mind, camping and sharing a tent and mattress with someone of the opposite sex is something I've only done with him, and something that I associate with intimacy and sex with one person. I would not do that with another guy, even if my bf was fine with it... it's just one of my boundaries. He said that I'm being selfish, but that if I am really uncomfortable with it, he would tell our friend that I'm not okay with it and they wouldn't go... but that he would be irritated by being held back from doing something fun.

So I am trying really hard to be okay with this, because I don't want to be the type to "own" someone and keep him from enjoying something just because I freak out about it. I really appreciate him telling me about it beforehand, and listening to me go on and on about how I feel. I am also having a really hard time because I thought we had the same standards for this kind of thing, and now I'm starting to feel like a jealous prude and that we aren't compatible in this sense. That he'll start to resent me over the long-term. But it is how I feel... I don't know how to change it. I don't mind him doing something else with our friend during the day, but to me the line is drawn at sharing a bed (in my mind) with her when I am not there.

The other half of me wants to just let him do whatever he wants, and try to deal with it from my side of things... even if I feel really hurt, then to just try my hardest to trust him, and not assume he'll be like my past boyfriends (all of whom ended up hooking up with one of my friends after getting bored with me). I just feel so weighed down by my self, and I find myself wishing we just had our boundaries in common again so this wouldn't even be an issue. :( I am not afraid of something out-of-control happening, but I am more afraid of the little things... gradual increase of intimacy, which happens when spending lots of time close together with someone in a small space and talking while falling asleep, etc etc... b/c that's what always killed my other relationships. The guy never saw it coming... he just spent more and more "innocent" time with someone else, not having sex, and after a while, our emotional connection and relationship had crumbled.

What do you guys think? I know some of you will think I am insane for being so possessive... and believe me, I see myself that way too... I just don't know how else to be, since we're both trying to be honest and communicative.

Does anyone else feel uncomfortable with the idea of their significant other going camping alone with someone of the opposite sex when you are out of town? Please be honest, either way... I need some advice and direction here.

the only misstep that I see here is that he didn't disclose it from the beginning when he said he was going camping with other friends that it wasn't just guys and that there could be a potential coed situation for sleeping accommodations.

This is where the road meets the rubber, where we must walk the talk we put of saying that we are fine with things and having to actually be fine with them.

And sometimes, we're just downright human beings, and it feels sucky, no more explanation needed and hug given.

Cyn, he did disclose from the beginning that he was going camping with our female friend... he said there might be another guy going along, but that it wasn't sure. So there wasn't any misstep at all, in that sense.

But you're right... here's the thing, I don't know if I ever talked the talk of being fine with things, since he knows how I am and I know how he is about certain things. We are both sucky human beings about particular things, and this is one of them for me. That's my predicament. :( How to rise above my gut feelings?

I think it is totally inappropriate for him to go camping alone and share a bed with another woman. You are not being unreasonable at all, especially if they have a past history of possibly liking each other.

If they were going with other people, I don't feel it would be a problem at all, but they're not. It is disrespectful of you and your relationship for him to go and do something that makes you so uncomfortable.

I am the most non-jealous person EVER...but, there is no way in hell my husband would go on a trip alone with another woman.

I know how you feel, because the similar situation put strain on my realtionship and was a factor in it ending. And it ended up that she did like him and wanted to be with him. Don't hate yourself for being jealous and possesive, he is putting you in a situation where you can do almost nothing but act that way. But in all honesty if he goes or not the damage has been done, he already wants to go and already doesnt understand why you cant be comfortable with it, and still wants to go. It doesnt really matter now if he goes or not. So I say let him go. Leave the decision up to him, and if he doesn't act how you think is appropriate then you will have some issues to settle. You are already hurt, keeping him from going when he wants to go will not make you feel any better, your trust in him has already been shaken, tell him that, and see if he doesnt try and make it up to you.

LOL I reversed it in my head... I got the guy going and the girl being iffy...

Well we can never talk of every permutation and situation, they change all the time. I'm okay with this, but not with that or this in variation A and C. We all tend to generalize a little bit to some degree, and then those generalizations can also lead to some assumption on the recieving end.

But let's focus on you because that's what we can control and effect change.

First I'm going to give a more hardline answer (I'm trying to see if I sometimes don't look before I leap)
While you do try to not put the fox in the chicken coop, it's no surprise when the fox does eat the chickens. Since we are talking human beings, ultimately you have to trust him and her since you making an ultimatum will force a more negative outcome.


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He does know that this is a particular hot issue for you? Is camping an intimate bonding activity for you two even when you go with other people?

with the circle of friends we have I wouldnt have a problem with it at all, even sleeping on the same mattress, but thats our friends and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that nothing untowards would go on. If I couldnt do something I wouldnt stop Dave from going and having fun just because a female friend, but thats us, and thats the way our relationship is and thats the way our friends are.

I can understand if he's hurt by the reaction you had, because it kind of does look like you dont trust him to go and for nothing to happen. Im not in anyway bashing how you feel, I am aware lots of people in the world arent of the same mindset as me, but to me its as easy as knowing the person Im in love with and knowing he'd never do anything to jeapordize it.

Is it human to feel as you do, abaya? Sure. Is it normal? You bet. Is it unreasonable? Nope. Is it hard to deal with? Yeah, but if your desire is to protect your relationship and move forward, identifying your jealousy and discomfort for what it is is the first step, and the second is to just trust that your S.O. will do the right thing and make the right choice--you could tell him "I'm not comfortable with you going with her as I know you have had a history of liking her and I don't trust how she will act around you. I am uncomfortable with the fact that the two of you will be alone and sharing a tent together--in my mind that is an act of intimacy. I'm not telling you NOT to go, I'm just sharing with you some of the things that are making me uncomfortable about the situation, and I would appreciate it if there is something you could do to change it." For example, you might share with him that you would be more comfortable if he took another friend along or they slept in separate tents.

Abaya, I know plenty of girls who would put their foot down and tell him it's completely unacceptable to go--myself included, so this is sticky for me. I did have an S.O. who went off on a trip with another girl--a girl he used to like--with other people and ended up cheating on me with her. But you guys seem to have a generally healthy relationship, so I think you can work through this. Good luck.

My love and I have been together for a long time, and we trust eachother deeply. Both of us are close friends with most of our exes, and we get together with them often, even alone.

Mind you, I wouldn't be comfortable with Simon going camping alone with another woman. Not because I don't trust him, or even who he would be going with. Sleeping next to someone can be intimate, even if that's not the intention.

I'd let him go though. If it's a one-time thing and him and this girl are close friends, then I don't really see the harm. It would be a little exercise in trust. It would drive me crazy while he was away, but I'd need to trust him. There's not much else I could do.

And abaya, you're not insane. You're just human. :icare:

You've got a lot of history with other incidents that would lead you to beleive that bad things might happen. Ask your self one question... Has he ever given you a reason not to trust him? What about your friend?

A less honest person, or a person who was up to something, I wouldn't think would be as honest as he's been. Sounds like he sees her as a friend and nothing more.

Take a look in the mirror. You are a beautiful woman, who is also very intelligent and has a ton of stuff going for her. Unless he's a complete moron (and why would you want to be with him if he was) he's not going to throw that away for a fling. Have faith in yourself that right now, at this point in your life, with this particular guy, are worthy of his faithfulness. Whatever happened in the past, you were a different person and they were different guys.

When you go off to Africa for your wonderful trip, are you going to spend that time wondering and worrying about what he's doing? If you can trust him for 2 1/2 months, give him the benefit of the doubt for a weekend. Have faith in yourself that you are worth it.

Ok, take this from someone who's been in your boyfriends shoes. Camping with a member of the opposite sex (when there's only two of you) is innapropriate when he has a girlfriend. I don't care what his intentions are, it's just not appropriate. he shouldn't be spending any kind of quality time with another girl alone while he is with you. especially if he's had feelings for this girl before you guys started dating. you were right to question it, and if he still goes after knowing how you feel about it then that should tell you a lot about his character.

I would not feel comfortable if I were in your shoes. You acted the same way I would've. I wouldn't care if they were going with a group of people, but I wouldn't want them sharing a bed no matter what. Plus, he used to like her. I think I would explain to him how the whole situation made me feel uncomfortable and let him decide for himself what to do. How would he feel if the situation was reversed? If he still decides to go after knowing how you feel, then maybe you guys should sit down and have a little chit chat.

This is pretty much the conclusion I've come to (also after talking w/my dad before coming back to read all these replies; thank you, all!!!). The only issue is, it may not be a one-time thing... I will be gone for 2.5 months, and my bf plans to go camping more (I encouraged him to do so, but did not know he offered to go with our female friend over the summer... it hadn't even entered my head, since I always assumed he'd go with a group, or at least with another guy).

So it may be something that happens more times... and that is where some of my fear comes from. I trust him enough about not doing something major (fooling around or something)... but for me, yes, sharing a tent and especially a mattress IS INTIMATE, I don't care if you're doing it with Mother Teresa. And to me you cannot help but become more intimate, even just emotionally, with someone that you do this with. So I don't fear something huge happening, but I fear the emotional bond that may develop in my absence, esp. if this happens many times over the summer. And my fear is not irrational, because I've seen it happen so many times (even in myself), so I have solid data to back up my gut feelings. That's why I don't put myself in those situations anymore, and that's why most of you guys have learned to not put the fox in the chicken house, so to speak. Does that mean I sacrifice some of my fun because of a relationship? Well, yeah. And I don't resent the other person, either... to me it's not a control issue, it's a respect and honoring of the relationship issue.

My dad was really helpful here. My dad has major resentment of my mother for trying to control him, and that's a red-button issue for me to avoid... I will not control ktspktsp, no matter what. My dad also said that in his 20s he made a lot of careless, naive mistakes that cost him relationships with women... because he thought he knew better and that he was less human than he actually was. My dad says now that there is no way in hell he would go camping with another woman while dating someone else, even if it was the most innocent thing in the world... he called it playing with fire. So basically, even though my dad resented my mom for her trust issues, he is backing me up on this one.

On the other hand, my dad and I agree that I have no control here, and I cannot assume any. I have to let go and just TRUST, because to do anything else would create resentment and greater issues. I have told ktspktsp how I feel, in great depth, and I know that's not gonna change anytime soon (even if I try to make it change)... it's too deeply-rooted.

However, I do not want to lay a guilt trip on him that makes him not go because of that. I want him to decide what he'll decide, and it's my (and our) responsibility to deal with afterwards. I trust him to be honest with me, no matter what (about physical and/or emotional boundary-crossing), and that's what it comes down to. Our relationship is built on honesty and communication, and I want that to continue regardless of circumstances that may test us.

Yep, that is what it's coming down to. I see this clearly, and I know that the greater danger is creating resentment. So I am working towards letting it go and dealing w/it on my own.

Mal, this is what I am also trying to hold on to. Confidence in myself rather than my insecurity (based on real experiences). He has been fighting my insecurities for the last year, and this will just be another proving ground for us. I am trying to take the positive view, even though I appreciate all of you understanding my point of view. It means A LOT to me to hear you guys' words.

If he's been dealing with your and what you beleive your insecurities to be (they are usually not as obvious as we think they are) for a year... it's clear to me he thinks you are a keeper...

and the cold hard truth time... if he's going to cheat, he's going to cheat... the opportunity would make itself available and he probably wouldn't tell you the who and the where... which is why I beleive this is innocent...

We love ya, and we'll tell him how great you are. and we'll also beat the stuffing out of him (or pluck his eyebrows out one by one) if he does hurt you... You can tell him I said so... :D

The fact he told you who he was going with would make it seem to me that this is innocent - he is being up front about it.

I have been away with other women camping without my wife - you just have to trust him (or not...). In the end, if your relationship is strong enough it will survive this weekend and the 2.5 months apart.

Abaya, my ex would go with guy friends all the time to concerts and stay in hotels together instead of driving home late, etc. I believe that you have to let people make their own decisions because if they have weak character, you won't change that. The end result becomes a matter of when, not if. This is part of loving somebody, trusting he is the guy who will protect and care for your relationship whether you are around or not. Give him the opportunity to show you his love back.

With that said, this stood out to me...
I am very big on loyalty, probably over-sensitive to it. If he didn't go on the trip, he doesn't need to explain to your friend that it is your issue. First, it looks like a thinly veiled threat to "tell on you" and look like a victim to whoever will listen. Second, trust issues in your relationship aren't for your friends to mull over, and a level of privacy should be expected from each other in an intimate relationship.

Can you tell it hit a button?? :) I am sure it will be fine! One last thing - I double Cyn's statement, well put!

..............communicate...............

I suppose I'm fairly conservative when it comes to relationships. If he's with you, then he's with you. He does not go out in the middle of nowhere and sleep in the same bed as another woman. Whether he means to cheat or not, the temptation will be there- a temptation that would not exist if he were not in the middle of nowhere with a woman lying 6 inches from him.

I'm also troubled by the fact that he has a choice to either go camping in the middle of nowhere with this other woman, or to go camping in the middle of nowhere with you, and he is choosing her.

Whether he intends to cheat or not, whether he actually does cheat or not, he is willingly putting himself into a situation where not only is cheating a distinct possibility, but one which it is very likely that you will have bad feelings about.

He needs to be more sensitive to your feelings.

Yep ribs, this hit a button for me, too... but he says he doesn't want to lie to her, since she's his friend. He also said that it's my issue, not his, so he wants her to know that. I asked him if he could consider to be "our" issue, since he'd be making a decision to respect my feelings, but he said it was still mostly my problem and he wanted to make that clear. I told him that on the other hand, if he did go, and my family asked what he was up to that weekend (which they prob will), I would be pressed to tell them the truth... but at the same time, I feel like it's safer to just say "he's hanging out with friends" and leave it at that, since essentially it comes down to the two of us, our communication, and our decisions, and other people don't have to know.

That said, Heh, I think this is true, BUT!!... what's the TFP for, then? :D I think outside opinions can be very insightful, and for me they bring me back to the bigger picture usually. So even though the decision comes down to two people, I think outside views can be helpful (if they are wise people).

Tec... we are doing a good job of that, I think. Communication is something we are always striving to do more of.

Something gives me the feeling this isn't right. I am not a jealous person by any means, and I know my BF isn't either,
but there is no way in hell I would go camping & share a tent with a male friend (nevermind share a mattress!) and expect him to be okay with it in any way, shape, or form!
This reminds me of advice my sister gave a friend of ours who had been accused of fooling around on her husband...if you don't want people to make assumptions your reputation, don't put yourself in situations that look bad.

Damn. I knew you were going to call me out on that! I was considering that as I typed, but decided there is a big difference between our on-line friends and our in-live friends when it comes to privacy for the obvious reasons. I thought I could slip it by without any smell of hipocracy. Next time. :D

Hi all,

Thanks for the valuable input. Abaya described the situation pretty accurately.

To clarify something, the issue here (I believe) is not that Abaya doubts my intentions, but that she's afraid of me gradually slipping into liking someone else.

I understand the issues she has with this.. But it makes me feel constrained, and frankly, not so trusted. I have trust in my feelings, though I know I'm human and no one is flawless. I'm also in my first and only relationship, so it is true that I'm not as "tested" by this stuff as I could be. But.. should all situations where there could be temptations be avoided? I don't have a definite answer to that question. But somehow having to downgrade friendships, for instance, doesn't feel like the right answer to me. And being sheltered from 'threats' makes me doubt the strength of the relationship.

But in all this though, I am committed to Abaya. :icare:

chickentribs, you do raise a good point. I guess part of my desire to tell our friend the facts is, aside from my dislike of lying, also due to some passive-agressiveness on the issue. I've decided that I will tell her that it's "our" decision if I have to do so. Since I would not go on with this if Abaya didn't feel OK with it.

I also don't feel like going on this trip with her anymore if no one else comes.. I would feel that Abaya is stressed all during that weekend (even if she decides she's OK with it), and I don't want that. In turn, I wouldn't enjoy the trip either because of this. The whole trip would become just weird to me.

If you are committed but Not in an "open" relationship (where you do give each other permission to be intimate with other people) . . . then i don't see how sleeping in the same tent with another woman would be appropriate at all. It's just not.

If there were seperate tents involved, then it would be fine . . . but why the need to sleep in the same small tent? Is there a shortage of tents in the world? :D

Botton line:
If it's gonna cause stress, then just avoid it.

You and ktspktsp seem to be doing a great job of communicating and obviously are taking each other's feelings into account :) Bravo on that :) you're a great couple.

Sweetpea

Hey ktspktsp... What a stand-up guy :) I can imagine that Abaya's looming trip this summer and the distance issue you guys are managing doesn't make any of this easier for either of you. I've been in a similar situation and all I have to offer is everything I did wrong! I will let you walk me through the right way to get through this when Abaya comes home to you from her trip, deal? Good luck with the new job, too!

I just don't want him to be irritated with me or resent me for impinging on his freedom... :( That sort of defeats the whole point.

Btw, I would say more but we are still right in the middle of discussing things, so I will get back to y'all. Thank you again, though... you have helped us both so much.

I'm glad to see that you are both still talking, and more importantly, listening to each other...

I think Veruca nailed it.

Isn't the main problem here that ktspktsp makes rash decisions with little thought about how it effects the long term and others around him?

^ iamnormal... thanks for your candor. But do remember that you are talking about the person I love, and I would not be with someone who is consistently immature and out of line (I know that when I see that, since I made that mistake w/a different guy).

I will defend ktspktsp here and say that he does not always make rash decisions, at least no more than is to be expected at this stage in his life. We are both in different learning stages in that sense: for him, he has had major changes in the last 12 months of his life (first girlfriend + first sexual experience + first serious relationship, finishing MS thesis, first job + first serious job, first apartment alone, first car--which was a lemon and ended up being VERY stressful, and also doing all this in a foreign country and in his 3rd language), and I think he is bound to make some errors during all that change. That's a lot for one person to handle, and I think he has done it with relative grace (and especially with me watching/commenting on it all!).

For me, my changes are not "life" ones, since I've already been through much of what he's going through for the first time, but they are emotional ones; this is my first stable, long-term relationship (his too, but he is emotionally-stable by nature and had a good model of his parents to work from, which is the opposite of me), and he is helping me to grow in a healthy relational sense of trust and stability (hence why this camping issue became a big deal, because I was trying so hard to trust him but just couldn't get past the situation itself). Before we got together, I had become very cynical about relationships and felt that I might never meet someone whom I could grow with and trust. He is helping to transform my ability to love and be loved, which is no small feat.

The only thing is that once he makes a decision, ktspktsp is usually quite stubborn about defending it under fire (usually my fire, since I have already lived through a bit of life that he is now experiencing for the first time, and I am trying to save him some of the stress/mistakes that I went through). I can be stubborn too, but it is a slow process of learning to listen to each other and trust that the other person may see or feel something that we as individuals are blind to. If either of us makes rash decisions, we are learning to communicate about them and be as honest as possible in reaction... and while the reception may at first be negative, usually we come to a positive end, learn more about the other, and grow onward.

That's what happened over the last 2-3 days. We talked further tonight after both of us read this thread, and his irritation finally began to fade away as I explained some of my own boundary-crossings in the past, and the actions I took to reign myself/others in from temptation. I really feel that he did come to understand my feelings and concerns (you TFP'ers really helped, with your own reactions and experiences), and that he no longer resents me for feeling so strongly about this. We are beginning to really communicate about boundaries and where our differences are, and how to compromise for each other.

He only wished, in a way, that instead of being told what to do by others, that he had experienced himself firsthand the "mistake" of going camping, and then decided on his own that it was a bad idea. I don't have an answer for this... it's fair enough, and I'm a learn-by-experience person too, but I also think it's even wiser to learn from others' mistakes and save yourself the heartache and stress from the aftereffect.

To me, that's what makes a person different from the crowd... they are smart enough to listen and learn from others, not to screw it up themselves the first time. It takes real humility to do that, and humility is something I put at the very top of my list of things that I find downright sexy. :thumbsup:

So I think we're on the right road again, and I'm so very grateful to have resolved this issue. Not to say there won't be others in the future! But this one seems to have played out well. Thank you again, TFP'ers. :D

It takes a big man to admit something like that & to listen to anothers opinions, abaya. Tell him so for me!
I'm glad you two worked things out. Tecoyah hit it dead on.

^ Oh Demeter, you know it... he's a keeper! :D We are working on growing up together as well as we can. While we're bound to step on a few toes along the way, situations like this one make me so very grateful for what we have, and for how much work we are willing to put into our love. We are becoming something extraordinary together!! :thumbsup:

Now all you have to do is tear your ex-roommate a new one. Because it takes two to tango.

^ Ha. :) Well, I'm not going to say anything to her, at least not in the near future. She is quite new to "life situations" as well, and she is learning the hard way by making spontaneous decisions to the detriment of her relationships (she's done this many times in the last year, much more so than ktspktsp).

For me, the only "tearing her a new one" occurs in my decision to not trust her as much (less than I already did) in the future. Almost all of my other female friends would immediately see red flags in an offer to go camping, regardless of who made it, because they know me well and they know these situations. The ones I trust would say, "How does Abaya feel about this? Have you asked her yet? I wouldn't be comfortable in this situation if I were her..." (that's what I'd say to someone who asked me).

However, I will give our friend the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to inexperience and naivete. She may also have just assumed that since ktspktsp was asking her, that he must have already checked it out with me and that I was okay with it. She didn't ask him that though, so it was an iffy assumption on her part. She'll learn. I hope.

wonderful that you two are interacting and communicating, that's quite important. I do find it interesting that the couples who are here as couples and resolve things with community members helping hash out candidly different view points and positions.

I quoted the above part because I find that an interesting line that I tow as an older brother, mentor, model citizen.

There's a point in time where the rhetoric and verbiage of learning and wisdom giving stops and actions have to take place.

I wrestled with this most my life as my father put a large burden on my shoulders to be a good brother to my younger sister.

Some of what makes me more resilient than my sister is because I had to navigate and figure it out by myself without the benefit of any wisdom from others.

Interesting, Cyn. Does that mean you made a lot of mistakes? :D And did you end up advising your sister a lot, and that's why she isn't as resilient as you are?

For me, I am an only child so I had no sibling advice, but my parents laid a pretty heavy burden on me to be a good kid and to make them (esp. my mom) happy. I may have rebelled very slightly when I went to grad school (finally!), but even then I reigned myself in after a short time and a huge mistake.

This may become a threadjack, so maybe you or I should start a new one about which is better: wisdom via experience/mistakes, or via someone else imparting their experience/mistakes to you, and you being smart enough to listen to them. :)

You two are really impressive. I thought Q and I communicated well! As a million people have said, your feelings are definitely valid, as are his, actually.
If it had been me, I would have said that the situation as it stood (just those two, and one mattress) made me uncomfortable for the high level of intimacy. If there were TWO mattresses and/or three people, I would be much more comfortable.

I'm sorry we ruined it a bit for ktspktsp, but I am so happy for you both that you can talk things out. There will be other camping trips.

Oh, and naive she might be... but she might not be either. I would agree that you should examine her motives in the future quite carefully. We women can be trickier even than what we ourselves imagine.

Thank you for all that you said in your post, Jess. And yes, I completely agree with your point about women... I am just giving her the benefit of the doubt, which I have to do because she is my friend. For the last year I have been watching her, and have examined her motives each time, and I will do this until she proves her character is stronger by making good decisions over time. It doesn't mean I like her less, but that I just know her better. Way better, I think, than she knows me.

Men or women, sometimes we really don't know what we're doing... we just go about things without considering all the ramifications. That's when things happen, when we're being careless about other people's feelings, real or imagined. I've been guilty of it many, many times in the past, and that's what I told ktspktsp yesterday. Women are socially programmed to be as subtle as possible in their dealings with others... almost subtle beyond our own recognition, if we're not careful. I'm not a cynic, but I know myself, and I know many other women.

I've had a not really similar expierence at all, but it's a little bit like yours.

A few weeks ago my boyfriend mentioned a camping trip brought up by a fellow employee. When I asked who he replied *insert female name here* Now, my initial reaction was anger, I know how awesome my boyfriend is, most other people do too. Girls flirt with him, I accept that, as long as he doesn't reciporcate. The wheels were turning in my head and I wasn't too happy about that.

After a while, he said a group of them were going, no one would be sleeping in the same tent and now it's fine with me. However, if he was to go with just this one lady, he shouldn't expect to come back home to me.

I'm a little old fashioned in my views about relationships, it's okay to have same sex friends, but if you want to keep me around you have to keep them at a level that doesn't make me question.

Anyways, that's just my opinion.

If you trust him that much then this dosn't have to do with him going camping with her.
Is it because of you have been hurt in the past?
Is it because she is pissing in your territory?
Is it because he didn't foresee how the situation would make you feel? If he did then he'd know that it wouldn't be a good thing to do because he wouldn't want to make you feel bad.
Is it because the thought of cheating never crossed his mind so he didn't think it was a big deal?
Is it because he told the truth and didn't lie and say he was going camping with the guys so he could get some ass on the bed you two have shared?

I agree Lead, and I don't think this is "old-fashioned." It's just good practice for maintaining boundaries and keeping a healthy relationship (unless one is in an open-relationship, where intimate settings can be shared w/others, but that doesn't apply here).

I definitely want ktspktsp to have same-sex friends, and I think that's a good thing. But what we are working on is an awareness of how to "keep them at a level that doesn't make me question," and that is something that I am always working on, too (keeping guy friendships at an emotional distance, even moreso than a physical one). In this situation, I'm totally fine w/3+ people camping, or 2 people in separate tents, or 2 people who are the same gender in the same tent (assuming both are heterosexual... would be the other way 'round if they were homosexual or bi).

I am curious, though, whether anyone who has replied to this thread would have felt differently when you were a teenager? I have a feeling most of us would have heard our parents telling us this stuff (don't share tents with someone of the opposite sex), and resented them for not trusting us... I know I would have. What happened in the interim, to make you change your mind and see things the way your parents would?

Also, I asked ktspktsp at one point, what if we were married in this situation? Would you still want to go? (This was a couple days ago, so he may have a different perspective now.) He said that if we were married, he hoped we'd trust each other even more than we do now, and that it wouldn't be an issue. I don't agree, but I was wondering what you guys thought. For me, the longer you know someone, the better you know what makes them tick, and what ticks them off!... and the better you learn how to honor and respect them. So I take the opposite view I guess (unless, of course, it becomes an open relationship.)

First, whatever works for both of you and if you both agree on it, then more power to you :) And you know i love ya both :icare:

However . . . wow . . . so interesting. I think if you were married . . . it would be even less appropriate. I was discussing this thread with my husband and his comment was "well, are they a committed couple? Are they thinking about marriage, if they are, then they need to act on behalf of that level of committment. Not like some casual couple." Now, he doesn't know you and ktspktsp like i see you, so that was his completely non-biased comment. If you were just a casual BF and GF . . . going off camping with another woman for your BF would be okay i guess. . . but sorta odd . . .
But if ktspktsp is going to be a committed individual to you, sleeping in the same tent with another woman, in the same BED with another women would just be inappropriate. . . It's not about Trust . . . at all, it's about having respect for your partner. It's about being appropriate, when you are committed . . . in our society, we all have boundaries that most everyone observes.

And why would ktspktsp even have the urge to share such an intimate setting with another woman?
My husband noted he wouldn't want too, it would be too wierd and he would feel like he was not being respectful of me.... Just because that would be blurrying the boundaries between him and his women friends and it would therefore be uncomfortable for him.

Where is this urge coming from? And doesn't the fact it's even making you a little uncomfortable (it would make ANY woman uncomfortable) just make him want to say right away . . . "it's not worth it."
And if he really wants to go camping . . . why not go with guy friends and her or just his guy friends... Seems like it's not about camping, but camping with her?? . . . why would he think just the two of them would be appropriate?? I could be slow on the uptake . . . I'm just really trying to understand where this is coming from :)

I'm just trying to understand where ktspktsp was coming from and understand why you are blaming yourself Abaya for 'holding him back' when every other woman i know would totally flip out and say 'no way in hell' in their BF or husband suggested something like camping with another woman.

Now, no need to get on the defense . . . i know that ktspktsp is a wonderful and respectful guy and how great you two are at communicating, i'm just trying to understand where you are coming from . . . and maybe i'm stuck in my perspective and you guys are the next evolution :)
:)

Sweetpea

Hi Sweetpea,
Thanks for the input.

Basically, since I don't have 'intimate' thoughts about our friend, I just treated it like going with a male friend in my head.

I've also camped for a week in Puerto Rico with a bunch of friends, and I was in the same tent as that girl and her roommate (this was before I got together with Abaya, although I was interested in her already :)). And it was all nonsexual to me, so I assumed it would feel the same.

I guess our boundaries (Abaya's and I) on this issue were not defined.. Hence the problem. I'm also on my first relationship so I don't have those boundaries defined for me yet. I just assumed "we're friends, and that's all she is to me now, so I'll just camp with her and it'll be fine". Of course after talking with Abaya I realized things were not that simple.

2 more things: (1) the goal was to go camping, and our friend lives nearby so it was a natural choice (I don't have many friends around me since I move to a different place). I also intend to ask another guy I know in the area to see if he's interested. Although I'm now realizing that campgrounds will be booked for the holiday, but then again planning is not my greatest strength :P
(2) I was actually thinking of bringing a pad just for my sleeping bag, and I had another one which I could've brought for the trip too. I wasn't interested in sleeping on the same mattress, I agree that feels a bit odd since it's more like a bed.

^^^^ I see where you are coming from ktspktsp, thanks for explaining your perspective. Although it still seems too intimate for my taste if it were my husband going... But i do see your perspective now and it makes much more sense, thank for for taking the time to explain to me :)

everything is about boundaries and how we define them . . . everyone defines them differently. I think each couple should find what makes BOTH people happy and adhere to that boundary in each given situation . . . boundaries can change as well over time, flowing one way or another . . . always communicate and remember to put each other's happiness first . . .

Bottom line: I think Abaya is the most amazing woman ( i don't even know her that well yet) she's smart, lovely and kind . . . so i just want to see her happy :) As you do too i know.

You two are a great couple . . . you're going to do well together :)

:)

Sweetpea

Thanks for your candor and concern, Sweetpea. :D I think you were right to say that I shouldn't blame myself for my feelings... they were valid, and I had no need to apologize for them (unless I used an angry tone, which I didn't). I also agree with you and your husband, as I said earlier, that this kind of thing would not be cool in any kind of committed relationship, particularly marriage (UNLESS it was an open one). I stand by that.

I also think ktspktsp was right in his earlier post, that my concern was not about his intentions at all, but for my fear of him drifiting emotionally from me especially when we are out of touch this summer (100% incommunicado) and may drift toward someone else. In that situation, camping is just putting oneself in harm's way, as many of you have noticed. So I was not concerned about his intentions/"urges" so much as just what any human being would do in the same situation (lying next to someone of the opposite sex when their SO is distant in every way possible)... including me as a human being, as I know my own weakness too well!

That said, we did have a major miscommunication about the mattress-sharing. When he and I talked (in person) on Sunday, I expressed several times that I was concerned about him sharing a mattress with her, undressing in the same tent, etc. The idea of having two mattresses (inflatable) never came up, so I assumed it was one that they would share... that didn't get clarified until a couple of days ago.

Anyway, I think we've worked towards a resolution. I know that for the 2.5 months I'm gone, I have no choice but to trust him, and that it's actually imperative that I trust him completely in order for us to have anything going when I get back! I actually feel a lot better about us being apart for the summer than I did before this whole discussion occurred... his willingness to listen and change makes it quite clear how much he cares about me. So I feel more confident in general about us! (I don't know why I always need that affirmation, but I do, at least for now.)

EDIT: Just read your last post, Sweetpea... thank you so much for your compliments, kind words, and for "watching out" for us and challenging us both. I appreciate you!!! :D

:) I'm a protective TFP friend . . . what can i say :) More protective of you than ktspktsp . . . but he's growing on me ;) :thumbsup:

And if you need any more validation than ktspktsp gives . . . just know that you are one of the most beautiful, compassionate and intelligent women i've had the blessing of knowing in a long time . . . You're one in a million and i'm sure that is a fact that doesn't escape ktspktsp ;)

:)

Sweetpea

^ Wow, thank you! :D Those are very kind words. It means a lot to hear them (I'm a highly verbal person, can anyone tell from my posts?) :) You're pretty darn cool yourself, Sweetpea... always offering people encouragement and constructive criticism, you're a very welcome member on all threads! :thumbsup: I'm so glad for this community; it's just an amazing place with fascinating and wise (or at least honest!) individuals. :)

Yeah, we are definitely NOT the next evolution. :) The opposite, actually... we haven't evolved enough! I think the main conflict between us is that we still haven't learned to avoid reacting defensively... since really, when someone is defensive, they're expressing that they distrust the other person's intentions. (I think Lurkette and Ratbastid have this as one of their "fair fighting" rules: always assume the other person loves you and that this is behind everything they say). Ktspktsp and I are both a bit immature in this sense (among others!)... we need to learn to anticipate each other's feelings/needs a lot more, which requires setting ourselves aside and really listening, asking good questions, etc.

Also, I've seen so many people make relational mistakes that to me, it's asking for trouble to not use boundaries EVERYwhere, rather than trust fallible human beings (including myself, again). I guess I'm a cynic, or a realist.

I mean, like w/driving, I might be a good driver (ha ha) but that doesn't mean situations aren't any less dangerous, just because of what they are (bad weather, other drivers, etc). If I trusted myself completely but failed to take into account the danger of certain situations, I would be asking for an accident to happen (and proving myself to be quite arrogant as well, for thinking I was above it). So I have to follow certain laws to keep myself and others safe, even when it takes away from my driving enjoyment (and I ain't too good at this, believe me!... I'm in the middle of traffic school for accidentally going the wrong way on a one-way street!!!) :rolleyes:

Now ktspktsp, having not been in a relationship before we got together, and also having grown accustomed to the stability of his parents being married for 30 years, hasn't been exposed to as much relational strife/conflict as I have... at least not the kind that results in break-ups and divorce. So we have conflict here, in that I over-anticipate, and he under-anticipates. As a result, his decisions come under fire from me, and then he starts to feel like I'm disrespecting his level of experience and questioning his judgment... which is a threat to his pride, so he gets a little stubborn and defensive. And vice versa, if he's questioning something I'm doing. We never, ever yell at each other, or become anything other than civil (though I can't help crying at times)... but it makes for some really draining discussions.

So the TFP has been so helpful in giving us outside perspective on stuff like this. Yay! :thumbsup: :D Thanks guys, I'll keep saying it because you don't know how much I've come to value you all! :)

Boys play with boys. Girls play with girls. Boys stay on their side, girls on theirs.

And one day down the road, they get married. And fuck. And this is when they can be together. This is the only way.

People don't go camping anymore. In the woods, all alone. In a tent. Must be sexual. It just has to be.

I think your concerns are valid. It's a shame that they should be.

I know this is way to late to make any real difference, but I think your concerns are well founded abaya and you have every right to feel the way you do, but I also think you should have let him go.

Complete avoidance of temptation doesn't build strong relationships or trust. You can build a bridge and claim it the strongest bridge ever built, but if you never test it, you will never know. Relationships are tempered by temptation. For me, saying I'm not to go camping with her is to say you don't trust me. If my intentions are honest, I'm going to be totally about front about all my plans(as he was), and about everything that happened after the fact. She shouldn't be a factor. If she tries something, that is an immediate end to our camping trip and you'll be the first to know what happened. Her trying putting the moves on him isn't cheating, him running with it is. For me, sleeping beside someone is not intimate at all, it can be, but it can also just be sleeping.

Part of being in a relationship is allowing yourself to be vulnerable, and a necesary part. If the person can't hurt you, they can never truly show you they care. If the person can't hurt you, you have no need to be concerned whether or not you trust them not to. I know it's hard, it's one of the hardest things to do - to allow yourself to be vulnerable to another person, but when you find someone who truly cares who you can truly trust, its one of the most pleasing things a person can find.

I doubt any of you need me to spell it out though, you seem to much better at the relationship thing that I am, I don't open communication very well...ahem...Best of luck to both of you (though I don't think you'll need it).

Oh, one last note:
I'm going to have to call total BS on this whole thing. All of my nearest and dearest friends have been 'girls', they just have always listened better and cared more - or at least showed they cared more. Sure I have my buddies that I hang out with all the time, but when I need to talk about something real, I turn to one of my female friends.

And nobody camps anymore? Please, maybe not where you're from but here where I'm at in Pa, I'll go camping at the drop of a hat for any reason. None of the RV crap either. I take a sleeping bag, pocket knife, box of matches, and a fishing pole. The tent comes only if it's supposed to rain. My friends are all the same way. Weekend trips, maybe some food, sometimes not (psuedo-macho competition seeing who will ask about bringing food first /sigh)

//sometimes I think my posts are too long *shrug*

So, we're not familiar with sarcasm...got it.

I don't understand why the guy would do this. It's against all common sense...you don't go camping alone with another girl, when your girlfriend is hundreds of miles away. They'll bring booze, maybe some weed...who knows what else. Man when I invite a girl to camping its because im VERY comfortable with her, and I want to get high, drunk, and fuck like a rabbit till the wee hours. Maybe they just want to have long talks over marshmellows, but from everything else you've said...for instance him liking her in the past, this girl having done questionable stuff to guys...it just doesn't add up to PG.

Personally, I have absolutely NO tolerance for this kind of bullshit. Go camping with your boys and chill, or with your girls. You do NOT go about it like this...just out of respect for the other person...you just don't. If a girl ever did this to me with another guy, unless he was beyond a doubt gay, I would tell her to do whatever she wanted on the trip because she wouldn't be answering to me for anything ever again when she came back.

A lot of people have to prove over and over to you that they aren't worth your time before you finally realize it...stuff like this would be a clear signal to me though.

People like him piss me off...

Sarcasm and text only communication don't get along very well, Sorry.

Hektore, I agree with a lot of what you said in your post. However, I take issue with the stuff that I am quoting above...

#1, I do not think that a relationship is "tempered" by temptation... at least not in the sense that hey, our relationship isn't worth much since we haven't tempted it much, so let's throw ourselves in the fire and see what happens! I think that if temptation comes naturally, then people have to deal with it, but I don't know if it necessarily makes the relationship stronger to just go willingly into a situation that would tempt anyone with reproductive organs and hormones. Rather, the whole discussion w/ktspktsp last week about this topic was what made us stronger, simply because we learned how to communicate and consider each other's feelings more... NOT because we put ourselves in harm's way and said "let's see how strong this is."

#2, I never enforced my will upon ktspktsp. I realize that he has a choice in everything, and so do I. I did not say "Don't go camping." The important thing for me was not to control his behavior, but to communicate my feelings about his decision and leave it at that. Once I knew that we understood each other properly (which took a couple days of very honest communication), I felt that I definitely trusted his decision and would be fine with whatever direction it went. Trust is built by the willingness to listen and consider feelings, not a categorical laying-down-the-law or "I'll do whatever the hell I want, thanks." Neither ktspktsp nor I wanted the latter.

Now, kangaeru... I also agree with some of your points, but your reasoning is misinformed and I disagree with your first two sentences quoted above. You don't know ktspktsp, and you are reading your own behavior into what he, a total stranger, would do. It is not in his character to bring booze or weed, nor to want to fuck like rabbits (at least with anyone other than me) :) ... I trust ktspktsp's intentions entirely.

It is the "long talks over marshmallows" stuff that I was wary about, and the history, yes... because those things build an emotional bond (esp. in the absence of the significant other) that is quite subtle and sneaks up on you when such bonding is repeated over and over, with even the most innocent of intentions. This is how affairs generally happen... it's not random strangers, but best friends of the opposite sex getting too close to one spouse or another, because emotional and physical boundaries were not drawn early enough.

Thank you for your concern. But I just wanted to clarify that I had a different worry; that it was not running off with a bottle of whiskey and bag of pot to fuck in the woods. Ktspktsp is just not the type.

For what it's worth, I would like to agree with Abaya... ktspktsp seems to have put himself in front of the firing squad here a couple of times and took some pretty rough criticism because he wanted to be able to understand what abaya needs out of the relationship. Not a lot of guys I know would check the ego and do that. I think he deserves a little more than "bag of weed and fucking" comparisons, and I think Abaya deserves better as well.

Missed this part... ktspktsp is a member of these forums and would give you quite a bit of patience and respect. Please respect him as well. Thanks, man.

kangaeru, all I'm gonna say is: don't assume that I would have the same intentions as you (or the same behavior) in a similar situation. And I'll leave it at that.

Thanks for those posts chickentribs, I appreciate that.

(And thank you too Abaya! :icare: )

I was in a charged mood when I wrote that due to other stuff, so I'm sorry for coming off a bit harsh. It sounds like I completely misjudged you, but then I don't know you. I still stand behind what I said though. I wouldn't do that / let someone I was with do what you did. They'd be free to, but they'd be walking out of whatever relationship we were in.

But that's me though. Best of luck to ya.

Kangaeru, thanks. It's alright that you stand behind what you said... I felt strongly about the issue too, obviously. But... I think you missed the fact though, that ktspktsp did NOT go camping, after all. He listened to my feelings. So, there's that. :)

Haha sorry, I missed that somehow in my haste =P

All good in the hood then, my foot is officially in my mouth.

Indeed, this is a good point. I was HIGHLY impressed with ktspktsp's willingness to talk issues out . . . i respect him immensely for that and both of them for talking it out. Communication isn't always easy . . . but these two made it seem efortless... kudos! abaya and ktspktsp!! :icare:

Sweetpea

no it's not... we just got the distilled down text version which makes it seem even easier.

^ Yep Cyn, you got it!! :) You wouldn't BELIEVE how much we talk on MSN! :) Sweetpea has a point though, that communication seems to come a little more naturally to us than to some other couples that we know. It's new for us to make part of our discussion "public" (on TFP), but I think you guys add so much and make our relationship that much richer, just because we have other people's experiences to consider when we talk (esp. since we haven't had tons of relationships ourselves).

I didn't mean to say that without temptation relationships aren't worth anything, bad analogy I guess. Only meant to say something along the lines of you don't know until you know. I also didn't mean to say to rush off into temptation just because you can, or to prove a point, only to say not to avoid it in an 'at all costs' fashion. Not that I think that is what went on with you two at all. I just think when temptation pops up, sometimes you have to live and let live and see what happens so you know for sure. And it feels like hell to do it, but when it works out its a great thing...Ok, so sometimes I hate this place(the TFP) because it makes me explain myself and then I end up doing this whole moral gutcheck thing, very annoying to have to put up with when you get into these types of discussions

So basically I was going to post something defending what I had to say, but then I was thinking about what you said. You didn't tell ktspktsp not to go(I did read all you said the first time, I apologize for putting words in your mouth), you simply explained to him it made you uncomfortable and why. For me as a caring boyfriend when I have a decision to make, and you tell me one of the choices is going to make you unhappy, it seems your saying to pick the other one. Telling me it would make you unhappy isn't saying don't do it, the end result is the same because of my priorities, but they don't equate when I thought and acted as they had. Bleh, chalk one up against me.

Then I put myself in his shoes (naturally since I'm a guy I put myself in the guys shoes). I'm thinking, man this is totally innocent, if anything happens I'll immediately come clean about it, but nothing will happen because I won't let it. Bummer, I understand why she doesn't feel comfortable with it, but I think she should trust me enough to let me go(Bunk after previous thought process you didn't tell him that he couldn't go). But if I just go and she didn't say anything and if nothing happens, which it won't, this won't be an issue because she should be comfortable with it in all future occasions.

I was going to say, if he had gone and nothing happened; problem solved as well. There is a problem with that too though, because when I put myself in your shoes, it occured to me: I'm not going to feel comfortable with it the second time, or the third, or ever. My girl and a guy, even if I know and trust him, in the same tent just isn't going to be something I can gloss over. Ever. *inserts foot in mouth* chalk two up against me. *Deep Breath* Looks like I was wrong...Thanks.

Hektore, your response was really honest and humble... thanks for your whole thought process. :) It's threads like this on TFP that make me love this place so much! :)

However, I didn't understand this quote.... Were you being sarcastic? I wasn't sure. Say more if you can.

This was a really cool quote. I really appreciated you taking time to walk in both ktspktsp's and my shoes... that's serious empathy, and I never take it for granted when someone does that.

You're right, I may not ever feel comfortable with the idea... but at the same time, I know that ktspktsp and I understand each other, and that we will communicate all the better for this. All that can be done is to live and let live in this situation, and to continue being honest about our feelings.

it may come more naturally, but it is what people should aspire to...

There a number of couples I know that can really express themselves as individuals without prejudice to their SO.

There's a few pieces to this "natural communication" that I can tell, first is being a bit more comfortable, true and honest with yourself. Second is being able to articulate, vocalize and share that honesty with your SO. Next is the receiver has to also be in that same state.

thanks sweetpea :)

It was sarcastic, I really don't hate the TFP.

I come from a small town full of small minded people, most aren't willing to try to have a semi-intelligent or coherent conversation when they disagree with you, they just want to call you names instead. Therefore I don't often get put into a place where I may have to genuinely change my opinion and/or fully explain why I think what I think. I ended up with a right until proven wrong attitude as a result. I'm trying to get better but I've only been out in the 'real' world for a short while.

Here(the TFP) people will tell you they disagree, respectfully tell you why and expect a respectful, intelligible response in return - not something I'm used to at all. So it ends up being this love/hate thing, something I have to do, something that is truly good for me to do, something I want to be glad to do, but something that is still trained into my head as annoying. I know it shouldn't be...I'm trying. I really am.

^ I'm glad you're here with us. :) Things that annoy me are usually things that I should pay attention to most (since the annoyance comes from buttons getting pushed that I preferred to ignore). Yes, sometimes even love can be annoying... since it's a heck of a lot harder to respond to (as you pointed out) than just calling someone names and having an incoherent conversation.

I hope you two are getting married soon.