iamnormal

If you trust him that much then this dosn't have to do with him going camping with her.
Is it because of you have been hurt in the past?
Is it because she is pissing in your territory?
Is it because he didn't foresee how the situation would make you feel? If he did then he'd know that it wouldn't be a good thing to do because he wouldn't want to make you feel bad.
Is it because the thought of cheating never crossed his mind so he didn't think it was a big deal?
Is it because he told the truth and didn't lie and say he was going camping with the guys so he could get some ass on the bed you two have shared?

abaya

I agree Lead, and I don't think this is "old-fashioned." It's just good practice for maintaining boundaries and keeping a healthy relationship (unless one is in an open-relationship, where intimate settings can be shared w/others, but that doesn't apply here).

I definitely want ktspktsp to have same-sex friends, and I think that's a good thing. But what we are working on is an awareness of how to "keep them at a level that doesn't make me question," and that is something that I am always working on, too (keeping guy friendships at an emotional distance, even moreso than a physical one). In this situation, I'm totally fine w/3+ people camping, or 2 people in separate tents, or 2 people who are the same gender in the same tent (assuming both are heterosexual... would be the other way 'round if they were homosexual or bi).

I am curious, though, whether anyone who has replied to this thread would have felt differently when you were a teenager? I have a feeling most of us would have heard our parents telling us this stuff (don't share tents with someone of the opposite sex), and resented them for not trusting us... I know I would have. What happened in the interim, to make you change your mind and see things the way your parents would?

Also, I asked ktspktsp at one point, what if we were married in this situation? Would you still want to go? (This was a couple days ago, so he may have a different perspective now.) He said that if we were married, he hoped we'd trust each other even more than we do now, and that it wouldn't be an issue. I don't agree, but I was wondering what you guys thought. For me, the longer you know someone, the better you know what makes them tick, and what ticks them off!... and the better you learn how to honor and respect them. So I take the opposite view I guess (unless, of course, it becomes an open relationship.)

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Sweetpea

First, whatever works for both of you and if you both agree on it, then more power to you And you know i love ya both

However . . . wow . . . so interesting. I think if you were married . . . it would be even less appropriate. I was discussing this thread with my husband and his comment was "well, are they a committed couple? Are they thinking about marriage, if they are, then they need to act on behalf of that level of committment. Not like some casual couple." Now, he doesn't know you and ktspktsp like i see you, so that was his completely non-biased comment. If you were just a casual BF and GF . . . going off camping with another woman for your BF would be okay i guess. . . but sorta odd . . .
But if ktspktsp is going to be a committed individual to you, sleeping in the same tent with another woman, in the same BED with another women would just be inappropriate. . . It's not about Trust . . . at all, it's about having respect for your partner. It's about being appropriate, when you are committed . . . in our society, we all have boundaries that most everyone observes.

And why would ktspktsp even have the urge to share such an intimate setting with another woman?
My husband noted he wouldn't want too, it would be too wierd and he would feel like he was not being respectful of me.... Just because that would be blurrying the boundaries between him and his women friends and it would therefore be uncomfortable for him.

Where is this urge coming from? And doesn't the fact it's even making you a little uncomfortable (it would make ANY woman uncomfortable) just make him want to say right away . . . "it's not worth it."
And if he really wants to go camping . . . why not go with guy friends and her or just his guy friends... Seems like it's not about camping, but camping with her?? . . . why would he think just the two of them would be appropriate?? I could be slow on the uptake . . . I'm just really trying to understand where this is coming from

I'm just trying to understand where ktspktsp was coming from and understand why you are blaming yourself Abaya for 'holding him back' when every other woman i know would totally flip out and say 'no way in hell' in their BF or husband suggested something like camping with another woman.

Now, no need to get on the defense . . . i know that ktspktsp is a wonderful and respectful guy and how great you two are at communicating, i'm just trying to understand where you are coming from . . . and maybe i'm stuck in my perspective and you guys are the next evolution


Sweetpea

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ktspktsp

Hi Sweetpea,
Thanks for the input.

Basically, since I don't have 'intimate' thoughts about our friend, I just treated it like going with a male friend in my head.

I've also camped for a week in Puerto Rico with a bunch of friends, and I was in the same tent as that girl and her roommate (this was before I got together with Abaya, although I was interested in her already ). And it was all nonsexual to me, so I assumed it would feel the same.

I guess our boundaries (Abaya's and I) on this issue were not defined.. Hence the problem. I'm also on my first relationship so I don't have those boundaries defined for me yet. I just assumed "we're friends, and that's all she is to me now, so I'll just camp with her and it'll be fine". Of course after talking with Abaya I realized things were not that simple.

2 more things: (1) the goal was to go camping, and our friend lives nearby so it was a natural choice (I don't have many friends around me since I move to a different place). I also intend to ask another guy I know in the area to see if he's interested. Although I'm now realizing that campgrounds will be booked for the holiday, but then again planning is not my greatest strength :P
(2) I was actually thinking of bringing a pad just for my sleeping bag, and I had another one which I could've brought for the trip too. I wasn't interested in sleeping on the same mattress, I agree that feels a bit odd since it's more like a bed.

Sweetpea

^^^^ I see where you are coming from ktspktsp, thanks for explaining your perspective. Although it still seems too intimate for my taste if it were my husband going... But i do see your perspective now and it makes much more sense, thank for for taking the time to explain to me

everything is about boundaries and how we define them . . . everyone defines them differently. I think each couple should find what makes BOTH people happy and adhere to that boundary in each given situation . . . boundaries can change as well over time, flowing one way or another . . . always communicate and remember to put each other's happiness first . . .

Bottom line: I think Abaya is the most amazing woman ( i don't even know her that well yet) she's smart, lovely and kind . . . so i just want to see her happy As you do too i know.

You two are a great couple . . . you're going to do well together



Sweetpea

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abaya

Thanks for your candor and concern, Sweetpea. I think you were right to say that I shouldn't blame myself for my feelings... they were valid, and I had no need to apologize for them (unless I used an angry tone, which I didn't). I also agree with you and your husband, as I said earlier, that this kind of thing would not be cool in any kind of committed relationship, particularly marriage (UNLESS it was an open one). I stand by that.

I also think ktspktsp was right in his earlier post, that my concern was not about his intentions at all, but for my fear of him drifiting emotionally from me especially when we are out of touch this summer (100% incommunicado) and may drift toward someone else. In that situation, camping is just putting oneself in harm's way, as many of you have noticed. So I was not concerned about his intentions/"urges" so much as just what any human being would do in the same situation (lying next to someone of the opposite sex when their SO is distant in every way possible)... including me as a human being, as I know my own weakness too well!

That said, we did have a major miscommunication about the mattress-sharing. When he and I talked (in person) on Sunday, I expressed several times that I was concerned about him sharing a mattress with her, undressing in the same tent, etc. The idea of having two mattresses (inflatable) never came up, so I assumed it was one that they would share... that didn't get clarified until a couple of days ago.

Anyway, I think we've worked towards a resolution. I know that for the 2.5 months I'm gone, I have no choice but to trust him, and that it's actually imperative that I trust him completely in order for us to have anything going when I get back! I actually feel a lot better about us being apart for the summer than I did before this whole discussion occurred... his willingness to listen and change makes it quite clear how much he cares about me. So I feel more confident in general about us! (I don't know why I always need that affirmation, but I do, at least for now.)

EDIT: Just read your last post, Sweetpea... thank you so much for your compliments, kind words, and for "watching out" for us and challenging us both. I appreciate you!!!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Sweetpea

I'm a protective TFP friend . . . what can i say More protective of you than ktspktsp . . . but he's growing on me

And if you need any more validation than ktspktsp gives . . . just know that you are one of the most beautiful, compassionate and intelligent women i've had the blessing of knowing in a long time . . . You're one in a million and i'm sure that is a fact that doesn't escape ktspktsp



Sweetpea

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abaya

^ Wow, thank you! Those are very kind words. It means a lot to hear them (I'm a highly verbal person, can anyone tell from my posts?) You're pretty darn cool yourself, Sweetpea... always offering people encouragement and constructive criticism, you're a very welcome member on all threads! I'm so glad for this community; it's just an amazing place with fascinating and wise (or at least honest!) individuals.

Yeah, we are definitely NOT the next evolution. The opposite, actually... we haven't evolved enough! I think the main conflict between us is that we still haven't learned to avoid reacting defensively... since really, when someone is defensive, they're expressing that they distrust the other person's intentions. (I think Lurkette and Ratbastid have this as one of their "fair fighting" rules: always assume the other person loves you and that this is behind everything they say). Ktspktsp and I are both a bit immature in this sense (among others!)... we need to learn to anticipate each other's feelings/needs a lot more, which requires setting ourselves aside and really listening, asking good questions, etc.

Also, I've seen so many people make relational mistakes that to me, it's asking for trouble to not use boundaries EVERYwhere, rather than trust fallible human beings (including myself, again). I guess I'm a cynic, or a realist.

I mean, like w/driving, I might be a good driver (ha ha) but that doesn't mean situations aren't any less dangerous, just because of what they are (bad weather, other drivers, etc). If I trusted myself completely but failed to take into account the danger of certain situations, I would be asking for an accident to happen (and proving myself to be quite arrogant as well, for thinking I was above it). So I have to follow certain laws to keep myself and others safe, even when it takes away from my driving enjoyment (and I ain't too good at this, believe me!... I'm in the middle of traffic school for accidentally going the wrong way on a one-way street!!!)

Now ktspktsp, having not been in a relationship before we got together, and also having grown accustomed to the stability of his parents being married for 30 years, hasn't been exposed to as much relational strife/conflict as I have... at least not the kind that results in break-ups and divorce. So we have conflict here, in that I over-anticipate, and he under-anticipates. As a result, his decisions come under fire from me, and then he starts to feel like I'm disrespecting his level of experience and questioning his judgment... which is a threat to his pride, so he gets a little stubborn and defensive. And vice versa, if he's questioning something I'm doing. We never, ever yell at each other, or become anything other than civil (though I can't help crying at times)... but it makes for some really draining discussions.

So the TFP has been so helpful in giving us outside perspective on stuff like this. Yay! Thanks guys, I'll keep saying it because you don't know how much I've come to value you all!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Prince

Boys play with boys. Girls play with girls. Boys stay on their side, girls on theirs.

And one day down the road, they get married. And fuck. And this is when they can be together. This is the only way.

People don't go camping anymore. In the woods, all alone. In a tent. Must be sexual. It just has to be.

I think your concerns are valid. It's a shame that they should be.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

Hektore

I know this is way to late to make any real difference, but I think your concerns are well founded abaya and you have every right to feel the way you do, but I also think you should have let him go.

Complete avoidance of temptation doesn't build strong relationships or trust. You can build a bridge and claim it the strongest bridge ever built, but if you never test it, you will never know. Relationships are tempered by temptation. For me, saying I'm not to go camping with her is to say you don't trust me. If my intentions are honest, I'm going to be totally about front about all my plans(as he was), and about everything that happened after the fact. She shouldn't be a factor. If she tries something, that is an immediate end to our camping trip and you'll be the first to know what happened. Her trying putting the moves on him isn't cheating, him running with it is. For me, sleeping beside someone is not intimate at all, it can be, but it can also just be sleeping.

Part of being in a relationship is allowing yourself to be vulnerable, and a necesary part. If the person can't hurt you, they can never truly show you they care. If the person can't hurt you, you have no need to be concerned whether or not you trust them not to. I know it's hard, it's one of the hardest things to do - to allow yourself to be vulnerable to another person, but when you find someone who truly cares who you can truly trust, its one of the most pleasing things a person can find.

I doubt any of you need me to spell it out though, you seem to much better at the relationship thing that I am, I don't open communication very well...ahem...Best of luck to both of you (though I don't think you'll need it).

Oh, one last note:
I'm going to have to call total BS on this whole thing. All of my nearest and dearest friends have been 'girls', they just have always listened better and cared more - or at least showed they cared more. Sure I have my buddies that I hang out with all the time, but when I need to talk about something real, I turn to one of my female friends.

And nobody camps anymore? Please, maybe not where you're from but here where I'm at in Pa, I'll go camping at the drop of a hat for any reason. None of the RV crap either. I take a sleeping bag, pocket knife, box of matches, and a fishing pole. The tent comes only if it's supposed to rain. My friends are all the same way. Weekend trips, maybe some food, sometimes not (psuedo-macho competition seeing who will ask about bringing food first /sigh)

//sometimes I think my posts are too long *shrug*

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The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

Prince

So, we're not familiar with sarcasm...got it.

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Who is John Galt?

kangaeru

I don't understand why the guy would do this. It's against all common sense...you don't go camping alone with another girl, when your girlfriend is hundreds of miles away. They'll bring booze, maybe some weed...who knows what else. Man when I invite a girl to camping its because im VERY comfortable with her, and I want to get high, drunk, and fuck like a rabbit till the wee hours. Maybe they just want to have long talks over marshmellows, but from everything else you've said...for instance him liking her in the past, this girl having done questionable stuff to guys...it just doesn't add up to PG.

Personally, I have absolutely NO tolerance for this kind of bullshit. Go camping with your boys and chill, or with your girls. You do NOT go about it like this...just out of respect for the other person...you just don't. If a girl ever did this to me with another guy, unless he was beyond a doubt gay, I would tell her to do whatever she wanted on the trip because she wouldn't be answering to me for anything ever again when she came back.

A lot of people have to prove over and over to you that they aren't worth your time before you finally realize it...stuff like this would be a clear signal to me though.

People like him piss me off...

Hektore

Sarcasm and text only communication don't get along very well, Sorry.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

abaya

Hektore, I agree with a lot of what you said in your post. However, I take issue with the stuff that I am quoting above...

#1, I do not think that a relationship is "tempered" by temptation... at least not in the sense that hey, our relationship isn't worth much since we haven't tempted it much, so let's throw ourselves in the fire and see what happens! I think that if temptation comes naturally, then people have to deal with it, but I don't know if it necessarily makes the relationship stronger to just go willingly into a situation that would tempt anyone with reproductive organs and hormones. Rather, the whole discussion w/ktspktsp last week about this topic was what made us stronger, simply because we learned how to communicate and consider each other's feelings more... NOT because we put ourselves in harm's way and said "let's see how strong this is."

#2, I never enforced my will upon ktspktsp. I realize that he has a choice in everything, and so do I. I did not say "Don't go camping." The important thing for me was not to control his behavior, but to communicate my feelings about his decision and leave it at that. Once I knew that we understood each other properly (which took a couple days of very honest communication), I felt that I definitely trusted his decision and would be fine with whatever direction it went. Trust is built by the willingness to listen and consider feelings, not a categorical laying-down-the-law or "I'll do whatever the hell I want, thanks." Neither ktspktsp nor I wanted the latter.

Now, kangaeru... I also agree with some of your points, but your reasoning is misinformed and I disagree with your first two sentences quoted above. You don't know ktspktsp, and you are reading your own behavior into what he, a total stranger, would do. It is not in his character to bring booze or weed, nor to want to fuck like rabbits (at least with anyone other than me) ... I trust ktspktsp's intentions entirely.

It is the "long talks over marshmallows" stuff that I was wary about, and the history, yes... because those things build an emotional bond (esp. in the absence of the significant other) that is quite subtle and sneaks up on you when such bonding is repeated over and over, with even the most innocent of intentions. This is how affairs generally happen... it's not random strangers, but best friends of the opposite sex getting too close to one spouse or another, because emotional and physical boundaries were not drawn early enough.

Thank you for your concern. But I just wanted to clarify that I had a different worry; that it was not running off with a bottle of whiskey and bag of pot to fuck in the woods. Ktspktsp is just not the type.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

chickentribs

For what it's worth, I would like to agree with Abaya... ktspktsp seems to have put himself in front of the firing squad here a couple of times and took some pretty rough criticism because he wanted to be able to understand what abaya needs out of the relationship. Not a lot of guys I know would check the ego and do that. I think he deserves a little more than "bag of weed and fucking" comparisons, and I think Abaya deserves better as well.

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

chickentribs

Missed this part... ktspktsp is a member of these forums and would give you quite a bit of patience and respect. Please respect him as well. Thanks, man.

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

ktspktsp

kangaeru, all I'm gonna say is: don't assume that I would have the same intentions as you (or the same behavior) in a similar situation. And I'll leave it at that.

Thanks for those posts chickentribs, I appreciate that.

(And thank you too Abaya! )

kangaeru

I was in a charged mood when I wrote that due to other stuff, so I'm sorry for coming off a bit harsh. It sounds like I completely misjudged you, but then I don't know you. I still stand behind what I said though. I wouldn't do that / let someone I was with do what you did. They'd be free to, but they'd be walking out of whatever relationship we were in.

But that's me though. Best of luck to ya.

abaya

Kangaeru, thanks. It's alright that you stand behind what you said... I felt strongly about the issue too, obviously. But... I think you missed the fact though, that ktspktsp did NOT go camping, after all. He listened to my feelings. So, there's that.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

kangaeru

Haha sorry, I missed that somehow in my haste =P

All good in the hood then, my foot is officially in my mouth.

Sweetpea

Indeed, this is a good point. I was HIGHLY impressed with ktspktsp's willingness to talk issues out . . . i respect him immensely for that and both of them for talking it out. Communication isn't always easy . . . but these two made it seem efortless... kudos! abaya and ktspktsp!!

Sweetpea

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"I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

Cynthetiq

no it's not... we just got the distilled down text version which makes it seem even easier.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

^ Yep Cyn, you got it!! You wouldn't BELIEVE how much we talk on MSN! Sweetpea has a point though, that communication seems to come a little more naturally to us than to some other couples that we know. It's new for us to make part of our discussion "public" (on TFP), but I think you guys add so much and make our relationship that much richer, just because we have other people's experiences to consider when we talk (esp. since we haven't had tons of relationships ourselves).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Hektore

I didn't mean to say that without temptation relationships aren't worth anything, bad analogy I guess. Only meant to say something along the lines of you don't know until you know. I also didn't mean to say to rush off into temptation just because you can, or to prove a point, only to say not to avoid it in an 'at all costs' fashion. Not that I think that is what went on with you two at all. I just think when temptation pops up, sometimes you have to live and let live and see what happens so you know for sure. And it feels like hell to do it, but when it works out its a great thing...Ok, so sometimes I hate this place(the TFP) because it makes me explain myself and then I end up doing this whole moral gutcheck thing, very annoying to have to put up with when you get into these types of discussions

So basically I was going to post something defending what I had to say, but then I was thinking about what you said. You didn't tell ktspktsp not to go(I did read all you said the first time, I apologize for putting words in your mouth), you simply explained to him it made you uncomfortable and why. For me as a caring boyfriend when I have a decision to make, and you tell me one of the choices is going to make you unhappy, it seems your saying to pick the other one. Telling me it would make you unhappy isn't saying don't do it, the end result is the same because of my priorities, but they don't equate when I thought and acted as they had. Bleh, chalk one up against me.

Then I put myself in his shoes (naturally since I'm a guy I put myself in the guys shoes). I'm thinking, man this is totally innocent, if anything happens I'll immediately come clean about it, but nothing will happen because I won't let it. Bummer, I understand why she doesn't feel comfortable with it, but I think she should trust me enough to let me go(Bunk after previous thought process you didn't tell him that he couldn't go). But if I just go and she didn't say anything and if nothing happens, which it won't, this won't be an issue because she should be comfortable with it in all future occasions.

I was going to say, if he had gone and nothing happened; problem solved as well. There is a problem with that too though, because when I put myself in your shoes, it occured to me: I'm not going to feel comfortable with it the second time, or the third, or ever. My girl and a guy, even if I know and trust him, in the same tent just isn't going to be something I can gloss over. Ever. *inserts foot in mouth* chalk two up against me. *Deep Breath* Looks like I was wrong...Thanks.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

abaya

Hektore, your response was really honest and humble... thanks for your whole thought process. It's threads like this on TFP that make me love this place so much!

However, I didn't understand this quote.... Were you being sarcastic? I wasn't sure. Say more if you can.

This was a really cool quote. I really appreciated you taking time to walk in both ktspktsp's and my shoes... that's serious empathy, and I never take it for granted when someone does that.

You're right, I may not ever feel comfortable with the idea... but at the same time, I know that ktspktsp and I understand each other, and that we will communicate all the better for this. All that can be done is to live and let live in this situation, and to continue being honest about our feelings.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

it may come more naturally, but it is what people should aspire to...

There a number of couples I know that can really express themselves as individuals without prejudice to their SO.

There's a few pieces to this "natural communication" that I can tell, first is being a bit more comfortable, true and honest with yourself. Second is being able to articulate, vocalize and share that honesty with your SO. Next is the receiver has to also be in that same state.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ktspktsp

thanks sweetpea

Hektore

It was sarcastic, I really don't hate the TFP.

I come from a small town full of small minded people, most aren't willing to try to have a semi-intelligent or coherent conversation when they disagree with you, they just want to call you names instead. Therefore I don't often get put into a place where I may have to genuinely change my opinion and/or fully explain why I think what I think. I ended up with a right until proven wrong attitude as a result. I'm trying to get better but I've only been out in the 'real' world for a short while.

Here(the TFP) people will tell you they disagree, respectfully tell you why and expect a respectful, intelligible response in return - not something I'm used to at all. So it ends up being this love/hate thing, something I have to do, something that is truly good for me to do, something I want to be glad to do, but something that is still trained into my head as annoying. I know it shouldn't be...I'm trying. I really am.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

abaya

^ I'm glad you're here with us. Things that annoy me are usually things that I should pay attention to most (since the annoyance comes from buttons getting pushed that I preferred to ignore). Yes, sometimes even love can be annoying... since it's a heck of a lot harder to respond to (as you pointed out) than just calling someone names and having an incoherent conversation.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

EULA

I hope you two are getting married soon.