lurkette

Some of you know that we are moving to Greensboro NC - bought a great old house built in 1890 - and are trying to sell our own house. We had our first showing yesterday, and while the couple loved it, they opted to buy a smaller house with less charm and fewer features that cost $10K more because it was in a subdivision.

Now, the irony is that we chose to buy this house because it was NOT in a subdivision! There are 10 houses on the street, across from an apartment complex. There's no homeowner's association, we don't have a name, it's just...10 houses. Cute ones, at that, with woods in the back yards, but literally walking distance from a supermarket, Target, cineplex, etc.

To each their own, I suppose, but I've always been baffled why anyone would want to live in a subdivision. When I wrote out a list of pros and cons, everything that was a "pro" for most people (uniformity, heterogeneity, predictability, quiet neighborhood) was a "con" for me. The things I love about our neighborhood are

1. it's close to everything so we don't have to drive as much,

2. there aren't any covenances so if we want to paint our mailbox purple with gold swirls....er, hypothetically speaking, of course...or hang Tibetan prayer flags from the porch, nobody gives a crap;

3. on any given day we can see people walking by on the sidewalk who hail from Guatemala, India, Korea, Mexico, Duke - we have the best ethnic food around here;

4. REAL COMMUNITY! Our neighbors are different from us in a lot of ways and are real friends - not people who have coffee with us and then turn us in to the homeowner's association for not mowing our grass. We all watch out for the older couple that lives a few doors down; we sit on the porch with the lesbians with 3 dogs and trade dog biscuit recipes; we go out to dinner every Friday night with 3 other people who live on the street.

From our perspective, living in a subdivision means hanging out with people who are exactly like you and live in houses that look exactly like yours and drive family cars to the grocery store a few miles away. How dull. Are we missing something? Part of me wants to say "how can we market our house to people who want to live in a subdivision" but the rest of me says screw em - let them go live in cookie-cutterland, I'd rather not bother to appeal to the masses and instead sell the house to someone who appreciates the neighborhood and will be happy here.

So, if you're a subdivision-dweller, or aspire to be, can you explain the appeal to me?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

liquidlight

The only advantages that I've seen to developed subdivision would be if they have the community ammenities. The pool, workout room, landscaping crew, etc. Aside from that, I'm with you, living in a cookie cutter house, that I'm not allowed to customize, with a bunch of cookie cutter people would drive me BONKERS!

I'll buy your house Do you take IOU's?

__________________
Halfway to hell and picking up speed.

lindseylatch

I hate subdivisions, my family hates subdivisions, my boyfriend hates subdivisions. They're ugly, they have no character, they're all the same. They cover beautiful land and totally ruin the area. They're GROSS.
In my area, it seems like people live in them so they can feel like they live in the country, but not actually have to deal with the animals, or grass, or views, or distance from town/neighbors...But they can say "oh, I live in the country!"

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

kutulu

The only appeal I see is that the house in a subdivision is likely to be newer and therefore have less things that need to be repaired. People also buy into the myth that their property value will hold better because the HOA is run by psychos.

I'd prefer a more custom looking house but here in the Phoenix area there are few non-subdivision houses that are not small, old, or expensive. The incentive for buying a cookie cutter 4br house for under 170k vs a 2br house for 250k is pretty easy to see.

I can see the point of an HOA but their powers need to be extremely limited to making sure that residents are keeping up on the maintenance of the houses only. They shouldn't be able to tell you what you can and cannot put on/in your house.

Cynthetiq

having used to live in a subdivision or tract home... eh. It's Speilberg americana. For some they like the whole white picket fence community look and feel. Bunch of marketing hooey if you ask me.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

sapiens

I don't like subdivisions. Often every house looks the same and every community member looks the alike. When I buy a house, I would like a neighborhood with a diversity of people and a diversity of homes. However, I would not want to live across the street from an apartment building or within walking distance of a target. I would like a community with residents that are planning on staying in place for an extended period of time (often not the case with renters). Big box stores and cineplexes do not appeal to me at all. They're ugly and they bring lots of cars and strangers into the neighborhood. I do like local supermarkets and theaters.

Also, I do shop at target and every once in a while I go to a cineplex, but I wouldn't want either where I live.

Bill O'Rights

Cookie cutter people, driving cookie cutter cars, living in cookie cutter homes, shopping in cookie cutter stores, and eating in cookie cutter restaurants. Why, it must be a Utopia...Right? Hmmm...Stepford, anyone?
I want no part of it. I am an individual, and will remain so.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

StanT

I'm guessing subdivision means something different where most of you live than it does to me.

I live in a small subdivision of 100 or so families in the national forest about 20 miles NW of Boulder. This was a ranch that existed before the national forest was created, that was subdivided up into 1 acre lots. I simply cannot afford the 35 acre minimum that would be required to live in the national forest outside the subdivision. The ethnic diversity of my neighborhood matches the rest of Colorado (not terribly diverse). The subdivision covenants expired before I moved in, however most of them were common sense and a few were peculiar (no burning outside ... no shit, no grazing male llama with female ones ... uhhh,ok).
We get along fine with our neighbors, but we're far from a homogenous community. Our HOA is all about managing our lakes and common land. No cineplexes or shopping malls, hell, the nearest gas station is 20 miles away and there is only 1 business within 10 (a bar).

Homogenous gated communities don't appeal to me, but I don't think that really defines a subdivision.

lurkette

Yeah, I wish we lived closer to neighborhood shops, local supermarkets, and stuff, but unfortunately that's just not something our urban planning committee sees as a priority. There really AREN'T any of those things in Durham, except by Duke U or downtown, and we can't afford to live in the neighborhoods there that aren't slums. That's one reason we want to live in Greensboro. The house we're looking at is 4 blocks from our favorite veg restaurant, a locally-owned coffee shop, and good sushi; and about 6 blocks from downtown Greensboro. We're going to love it.

Just my plug, but petition your community for smart growth, sustainable development, and human scale planning. And sidewalks!!! There are no sidewalks in Durham!

And StanT, out here in NC, "subdivision" generally refers to a bunch of homes from 1-10 floorplans on 1/10-1/3 acre lots arranged in cul de sacs with meaningless, pretentious-sounding names. They're McMansions, often brick-facade with hideous side and back faces, few trees (because they cut down the indigenous forest and planted ornamental pears), and usually too big for their lots. There are a few subdivisions that have "done it right" - varying the lot sizes, offering a wider range of floor plans or custom options, mixing use so you get a central commerce area with surrounding single family homes and townhouses, etc. But I can count them on 2 fingers.

What you are describing almost sounds more like "co-housing" - now THAT I'm for - communal maintenance of centrally owned resources like gardens, lakes, etc.; blending the community into the surrounding nature. I'm actually looking into starting a co-housing project that would be mixed-income, mixed-housing sustainable building. But that comes with its own challenges and is another thread entirely.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Rodney

Some people just don't trust older houses. They like newer houses because, in theory, there are fewer surprises and the technology is more modern and more straightforward. The financial world reinforces this predisposition: in California, anyway, you can't get a regular homeowner's insurance package for an older home. You have to buy a special, and more expensive policy.

Old homes are cool, but a lot of people are a little cowed by them, even if they've been retrofitted with modern systems. They're just not sure everything's "safe." And to a lot of people 100 years old is less desirable than 10 years old; sounds creakier, potentially faulty, even though the home is probably sounder even now than most modern homes.

Here's an analogy. I would love to own an old car called a Checker; they're the original old-time taxicab, and they stopped making them in '82. You can get civilian Checkers, fully restored with new engines and in great working order, for $20K. And they're loaded with character, powerful, give decent gas mileage, and have leg room to burn. But given a choice, your average person would rather have a used Lexus than an older restored car like a Checker. Perceived as safer, longer lasting, and "more like what everyone else has."

Personally, I would buy an older home, but I would have a _long_ list of questions. I lived in SF Victorians, and have vivid memories of primitive plumbing, rat-gnawed bare wiring, swapping fuses in the basement in pitch darkness, and even bees in the walls. Most of these are non-issues for new homes. Not that they don't have their _own_ issues.

lurkette

True...but our house was built in 1998. But not in a subdivision.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

StanT

Some of us prefer them.

I have one of the oldest homes where I live (1977). I have one of the few basements, it was put in with dynamite (can't do that anymore). It's also obvious who got first choice of lots, the view from mine is the best in the subdivision. I've replaced the roof, septic system, windows, and flooring; but the price I paid reflected all of that.

guthmund

It may seem alien to most of us here, but I believe the teeming masses long to live a life of conformity.

Everybody knows that guy that just blends in, no matter where he is or what he's doing. The guy who you see in pictures after the big party and say, "WTF? I didn't Bob was there?!" I think most people are like Bob.

I could also see those that just don't care too much about where they live and find the cookie-cutter lifestyle preferable to giving a damn about what color the house is. Adhering to rules and standards just means it's one less creative activity they have to deal with. No muss, no fuss, and no hassle.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

amonkie

I need a house that has character and personality, otherwise I feel like I'm not an individual. Our house is unique in that it's one of 4 in the entire 500+ houses in our neighborhood with a basement. No one has our layout, no one has our corner plot. I'd rather take a 100 year old house knowing it's going to have a personality and come to love it, than have the comfort or similiarity of a sub division. Can your house be transplanted, Lurkette?

__________________
Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

Cynthetiq

my sister doesn't want to ever live in an house where someone else lived before her. She's afraid of ghosts or someone dying in the house or something like that....

heck... here in NYC we look at obituaries to get good deals on apartments.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

hrdwareguy

I have lived in older neighborhoods that have had no HOA and have just recently moved into a house in a subdivision with an HOA. I can tell you why we moved into it but I can't speak for other people.

The first house I had wasn't bad, it did need some work, but what would you expect. After my first child was born, the house started becoming to small for us. The second house I lived in was a rental. We were doing a rent to own thing but in the process found that there were to many things we didn't like about the house and decided not to buy it. Also, it was starting to get small as well after my second son was born.

When we began looking, we looked at existing houses in non-cookie cutter editions, existing houses in cookie cutter editions and new houses. We finally decided to go with a new house because we found a developer that had nice houses, non-cookie cutter and were afordable. We didn't want to move into a house and spend a small fortune having to fix things we found wrong.

The subdivision we moved into has about 10-12 different floor plans which can be reversed. Also people have customized the floorplans for their individual tastes. The only common thing about the exterior of the house is the shape. Everyone gets to choose their own brick color, brick design, paint color, flower bed plants and tree. Lots are generally the same width, but vary in length and then of course there are the cul de sac (sp) lots. Some people even added the third car garage.

The HOA isn't bad, they don't restrict what you can do on/with your property to any great length. If you have a boat or RV, it can not be seen from the street, gotta keep your grass mowed (duh) and no long term parking on the street. As far as diversity goes, we do have a mix of backgrounds in the neighborhood. I do wish the stores were a bit closer but they aren't. Neighborhood becomes a big thing when you start thinking about your kids playing outside with other kids. Things like other kids in the neighborhood, cars speeding down the streets and other things.

Our decision was not based on a lets live here to look like everyone else, it was lets live here because it's affordable, in a nice area, and we will probably be in this house for the next 20 years or more.

__________________
Gun Control is hitting what you aim at

Aim for the TFP, Donate Today

ShaniFaye

I dont aspire to be in a subdivision.....ever. Home owners associations? I dont get them...you are required to pay to be part of a group that can tell you what you can and cant do on/with a piece of property that YOU are paying for...not them. If I wanna keep my christmas lights (including ones on the mailbox) up from halloween to easter Im gonna do it. If I dont feel like cutting my grass for two weeks, I wont do it. And if you dont pay your home owners association dues to be told that this year, cedar chips for landscaping arent allowed...they can put a lien on your property....wtf?

Give me an old farmhouse in the middle of no where so that if I want to go get my mail in the nude I wont be fined by the neighbors or so that I dont have to buy christmas wrapping paper or fundraising popcorn/cand bars from every kid in the neighborhood so that I dont look like scrooge.

Im jealous of lurkette and ratbastids new house

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Gilda

I guess I'm going to have to go against the grain here.

We live in a townhome. We own all four units in our fourplex, rent two of them, live in the fourth, and leave the third vacant for guests and as a buffer in case of loud neighbors or if we want to get loud. All four units have identical floorplans, with 2 and 4 mirroring 1 and 3. There are four other fourplexes in the complex, all with identical arrangements. Having all the homes jammed up together frees up what would have been private yard space for things like a nice park in the quad that the units surround. About half of the residents own their units, and about half are renters; our tenants have both been with us for more than two years now.

I don't mind in the least that our floor plan is the same as everyone elses, or that all of the exteriors look the same. It's not as if I spend a lot of time out front gazing at my home. I've been in a bunch of the units, and those that have been decorated don't all look the same; the individualization creates a different character to each home. I love that all of the yard maintenance is taken care of by paying a small monthly fee, one that is less than we'd have to pay for a single family home anyway.

We've contemplated renting out the last two units and buying a home, but we have more than enough room for the three of us currently, and an entire extra home for spillover as needed. If we do decide to buy, we've decided to get the best deal we can for what we can afford, and given the lower maintenance on new homes, we'll probably go that direction.

The nieghborhood is walking distance to two grocery stores, a half dozen fast food places, and Outback Steakhouse, and forty or fifty boutique stores in mini-malls.

Having all of the homes jammed in together frees up what would have been private lawns for a nice little park in the center of the quad, and a jogging track going around the outside with circuit training stations. To me, the advantages greatly outweigh the disadvantages.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

snowy

I spent all of my formative years and my high school years in a subdivision.

However, the subdivision I lived in as a wee one was very different from the one I lived in as a teenager. The first was in the country on an island in the Puget Sound. The lots were enormous and the houses were all custom homes (that's generally how they do things around there as most people on the island can afford that kind of thing). I knew all of my neighbors, there were tons of kids around my age, and we all ran around together.

When I was 13 my dad got a job in Oregon and we moved to the suburbs of Portland. After living in a rental house for a couple months my parents purchased a brand-spankin'-new house in a half-finished subdivision in NW Hillsboro, across the street from the urban growth boundary and backing up onto the sportsfields of the local middle school. It was and is what people in Hillsboro refer to as an "Intel" neighborhood--most everyone who lives in that neighborhood works for Intel or one of the other employers in the Silicon Forest. As for ethnic diversity--well, let me just say you don't get much more colorful in OREGON of all places--our neighbors next door were Chinese, the ones down the street were Indian, the ones over across the way were Pakistanis, and even the Americans were from all over the United States--California, Texas, Michigan, etc. I liked my subdivision because it straddled the area between three schools (now four). I could literally jump the fence and be on the grounds of my middle school. I played lacrosse on that same field for years, and my parents never had to leave the house to watch me play. They would trim our photinia hedge down in early spring so they could see the games from our back patio. Sure, our lot wasn't the largest, we didn't really have a view, and the neighbors were sometimes a little too close, but all in all it was a good place to be a teenager--everything was close including my friends.

While I don't think I would live in such an enormous subdivision again, I would say that there are things subdivisions offer that other places don't. For instance, if you move into a brand-new home on a brand-new street at the same time as a bunch of other people, you're ALL new and therefore it's easier to make REAL friends among them (this is something I learned from my friend's mother). These people all live on the same cul-de-sac in the subdivision next to mine--they take vacations together, babysit each other's children, regular card parties, have a huge barbeque together on Fourth of July , and organize a golf tournament on Labor Day Weekend.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both--it totally depends on your perspective. As someone who has spent most of her life in subdivisions, I hope I've provided everyone with another point of view.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau