Antagony

Knowing theory isn't knowing a martial art.

The martial arts are physical, spiritual, and mental. You can learn the theory by reading a book, although many books don't lay out much theory because they expect you to learn most of it from your master. The physical and spiritual elements (which are far more emphasized than the mental) can only be attained through physical practice.

Beating a martial artist in a fight doesn't make you a martial artist. It just means you found a way to circumvent what they've practiced. I could probably defeat anyone who has practiced boxing and is relatively near my weight simply because I'd be using my long legs to prevent them from making any effective attacks. This doesn't mean I am a boxer.

The practical side of martial arts (meaning the ability to actually defend one's self in a physical conflict) is mostly about what I've heard coined as "muscle memory". The term refers to reflexive responses between our brains and bodies.

For a simple example, take a short kata. Martial artists frequently learn katas. One of the purposes behind this is for effectively learning patterns. We can eventually apply these patterns without the slightest thought, because it is a reflexive response. But this connection only happens through physical practice. You can think about it all day long, but your brain isn't going to just spit it out in the middle of combat unless you have physically done the movements. The connection isn't made otherwise -- cognition simply isn't enough.

Surely you've read about these things in your "study of the martial arts".

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ms.kitty

capoeira (regional)

Duck2Day

Anatgony are you making fun of me? Hahaha, I'm just kidding. I realize that I don't study any of these martial arts without masters but I had a ex-friend that taught me somethings and I use them as just about instinct when anyone even tries to touch me to tickle me or something (I don't actually hit them or anything but I catch myself before I do it). I believe I could hold my own against a martial artist because even though I don't study under someone I do train and I am physichally fit for fighting. But if you say I'm not a martial artist than what does that make me?

I also don't really believe in all those katas and forms of karate and gung-fu. Yeah they might help but real fights don't happen like that, espically if someone is pissed and spontaneously rushes in and attacks. I can fight, but I don't practice any set martial art, does that make me just a fighter or something? I want to know what people really think if you don't think that I am a martial artist just because I don't study under a master.

If I circumvent a martial artists style of how they attack and defend doesn't that give me my own style? Not exactly martial arts but it does give me something. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like an expert on martial arts and that I study them and everything, just interested and researching it.

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Antagony

Okay, I'll kind of get these with a catch-all response. If a person doesn't practice the martial arts, they cannot be a martial artist. You got this concept from my previous post. So that brings your new question . . .

I wouldn't call you a "fighter" either unless you practice fighting. That's just how language works. I would just say that you think about fighting. You think about possibility for blocks, attacks, counter-attacks and what-not.

As for you having your "own style", of course you do. Everyone has their own style of fighting. No two people fight the same, not even two people in the same martial arts school. That's a given. Some fellow who has never been in a fight before is going to be using his own unpracticed style.

Until you actively participate in something, you aren't going to be able to classify yourself. Except maybe "guy who reads about fighting".

This is a pretty common sentiment among people outside of the arts. I think it's mainly due to ignorance of what the kata is used for.

Kata isn't meant to be a template for what to do in a fight. It's absurd that anyone would believe that. Here are some of the reasons for learning kata that I can think of off the top of my head:

Spiritual/Mental - Practicing a kata entails much concentration and focus. I hesitate to say it, but it's even a bit meditative. Zen-like, if you fancy. To practice kata to the fullest and best, we must purge our minds of thoughts and obtrusive emotions. As such, it serves as a way to exercise our mind and spirit.

Remember how I mentioned before that the martial arts very much involve the mind and spirit. Martial arts are more about winning fights.

Combat Application - First off, all combat application from the kata is an indirect affector on our combat skills. What I mean is that we don't take the actual kata into combat. That's silly, and it would never work in any real situation.

The benefits we develop from kata for combat comes in three different, but closely related forms: fluidity, reflexes, and combat thinking.

Practicing kata helps us move around in real situations. Again, this is indirect. We learn to be as fluid as possible in the kata. So in real application, we can easily shift body weight, change stances, perform successive strikes, etc.

Reflexes are developed through kata. A kata is really just a long collection of many useable moves. Of course a kata isn't going to directly apply to a real situation, but a martial artist will have a developed "muscle memory" of what to do when he is in position X and the opponent just performed action Y. Sure, you could sit down by yourself and think about moves for that situation, but practicing such a movement makes it reflexive. In combat you don't have time to think.

Once a kata is learned pretty well, the brain kicks in high gear when practicing them. A martial artist can go through his kata and think about possible variations in both his movements and his imaginary opponents. I think the benefits there don't need to be explained.

Someone who has been practicing the arts longer than myself could probably provide a much better, thorough, and correct explanation for the benefits of learning kata, but at least I gave it a try


Anyway, I hope I answered your question and helped you understand why the kata is so widely practiced. Martial arts have been around for thousands of years and kata still exist in the vast majority of these arts. That alone would make me think a lot deeper than, "But you can't use a kata in real life!"

p.s. - If you want further discussion on this, please PM me and perhaps we can start another thread. I don't think this material is appropriate to the intention of this thread.

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rockzilla

I took Tae Kwon Do way back in the day, and I've found a Tai Chi school that I'm going to start at after my surgery, mostly to help heal my weakened shoulder and groin.

I'd also like to echo Antagony on what he said about practicing kata. You may never use the exact motions of a kata in a fight, but you will learn how to defend and attack (theoretically) against multiple attackers. Memorizing a long string of precise motions is also a great mental and physical excersize. And like Antagony said, martial arts have been around for thousands of years, those motions are probably backed up by generations of martial experience.

carl0z

The best i could do was 9 years in Tae Kwon Do, and about 1 1/2 a year of Krav Maga(SP) which is really israli street fighting(1st class was where i learned how to groin kick efficently and swiftly)

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Minorci

Aikido

Washington

Tae Kwan Do for 2 years when I was younger. I made it to blue belt, then I just got too busy. My younger brother is into it now, forget what he is studying but its a lot of swords/wepon usage.

It was a good experiance when I was younger but its not for me. :}

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Sun Tzu

Just a couple of observations / questions:

With reference to what you said about your friends; good for you. It may be that you have a heightend development of attributes through genetics (I wish I did), but Im suprised you would see that as you did after reading philosophies of JKD. Thats OK because part JKD is finding your own way; which may mean interpreting things differently as human beings. There is a set foundation for the beginning though. I'd be interested to know what book or books you read about it.

Secondly when you mentioned your Muay Thai experience after observing some similarities in the training to western boxing you state "and the guy was Fillipino", I wanted to know what you mean by that.

Do you think there is a student of Joyce Gracie out there whose not Brazilian that can beat his; his own instructor?

Some of the best teachers Ive had that I consider Sensei, Sifu, Guru, or Master consider themselves a pupil

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TaLoN

Capoeira, shotokan, and jeet kune do

bermuDa

as a kid I took kung-fu for 8 years, going to as many as 5 classes a week (which was a task considering the sensei travelled around instead of having his own dojo). I was a 2nd degree brown belt when I realized that I've only been learning katas to progress to the next level, no one was teaching me exactly what all of those movements were for. We hardly sparred at all, and very rarely even had target bags to practice our attacks. I was good at memorizing all the movements, but I would've been ashamed to call myself a black belt if I didn't feel I earned it.

I quit kung-fu and all but forgot about it for several years. Just recently a friend of mine convinced me to train Shorin-Ryu Karate with him at my old buddhist temple under the tuteledge of some truly amazing people. The stretches alone are worth it, and I'm learning more about actual combat than before. I'm only saddened that there's only one class a week, but it gives my muscles a chance to reccuperate.

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Darkblack

I am very lucky to have the Pai family in my area. There are classes everyday and free time in the gym anytime there are no classes. My Sifu is a 5th Higher degree (30 Years) and is a great teacher. I am glad so many people are getting into martial arts. It is a great way to deal with everyday life and release stress.

shoe

I took TKD for 6-7 years and got quite bood at it. We had good workouts , a nice philosophical side and great people. Too bad TKD is so poor in actual self defence.

I was looking into other MAs possibly MT or JKD but my eyesight sucks and blows to the head wih either glasses/contacts can lead to serious eye injury so i thought id look into something thats less combat oriented. Capoeira has cought my eye..

bermuDa

capoeira looks like great cardio; my cousin was into it for a while and it almost looks like a dance more than martial arts. If i could find a local dojo I'd love to take classes.

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Sion

I studied Shito-Ryu Itosu-Kai (Okinawan Kara-te) for about a year before heading off to college. I wish I could find a similar school where I live, but there is only a Kung Fu/Tae Kwon Do dojo, which doesnt interest me.

interesting note about the style I took. My sensei's sensei, Fumio Demura (I THINK I spelled that right) was the stunt director/coordinator for the Karate Kid movies. Remember the scene in the first one where the kid is being chased on his bicycle by the thugs on dirtbikes? Then Pat Morita's character jumps over the fence and kicks their asses? That was Master Demura. I got to meet him once when he visited our dojo. Amazing guy. five foot nothing, about 250 lbs of solid muscle, fast as greased lightning. He was leading us as we did front snap kicks. His foot would be back on the ground before mine was halfway out. And I have (or had, back then) a pretty fast snap kick.

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Antagony

Speed is great. It's especially useful for skinny guys like myself. It's impressive that he had that much bulk and retained so much speed.

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Fire

ITF Taekwondo for 7 years- cross trained w/ judo and akido, mainly to learn how not to suddenly connect with the ground- then moved to european martial arts, fencing , two handed sword, etc... always gravitated toward functional arts- no interest in "point Sparring", more focused on events likely to occur in dark alleys. (not that a sword is likely to be present in that situation)

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shoe

ohhh nice ! if i could find 2 handed sword fightning i would be all over it.. sounds original

fhqwhgads

I took TKD for awhile as a kid, and I've actually been interested lately in getting back into a martial art.

I'm very interested in taking Krav Maga, but the only place I can find in my area is about an hour away...

Antagony

Errr, I don't think I'd call Krav Maga a martial art, but that's my lowly opinion

It's mean.

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Darkblack

http://www.kravmaga-sf.com/

They don't think it is a martial art either it seems

Sun Tzu

Brazilian Jiujitsu; your training wont be consildated with the striking type of movements that your trying to avoid. Not to mention having a solid base of the ground is a good thing.

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kod

I've practiced aikido on and off (currently on) since junior high.

People often talk about "effectiveness", but i've had the privilege of meeting a few very long-term aikidoka, and effectiveness is beside the point - these guys / women have so much personal presence no one in their right mind would ever attack them.

frankx

Shotokan Karate Do - Couple of years - My sensei is Takayuki Mikami.

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fhqwhgads

Perhaps I misspoke, but I'm just starting to learn about it. I'm not looking for self defense per se, but as a cop, I think it would be beneficial...

Antagony

Yeah, you're right on the money. It was designed for people in professions like your own.

It's very practical, and I'm sure you'll find it easily applicable to what you do!

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zampolit

I bop around too much for my own good. In chrono order eldest first. 1 year TKD, 1 year JiuJitsu, 4 years SCA heavy stick and shield/single stick, 2 years JKD/Kali/Mui Tai/Western Boxing, 6 months Aikido. BTW what do you guys think about the SCA heavy? I've always wondered wether or not it could be called it's own style or not. Or if it is even a true martial art.

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numist

Ive been around a little...

Tae Kwon Do, kickboxing, classical armed fighting (katana, nightstick, nun-chucks, staff), and SCA with shinai.

Xell101

Hap Ki do

urizenxvii

aikido, tong su do, jeet kune do, penjak silat. running the spectrum from calm to agressive...

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timmy701

Two Years of Hakkoryu Karate
Somewhere between traditional Japaneese Karate and Traditional Judo.

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tedrlord

I'm jumping in late into the discussion here.

I've taken a few styles in the past: judo, shotokan, shorinji kempo, and tai chi. It was only really a couple of years with each. The training never took. I just started taking Wun Hop Kuen Do from Sifu Doug Jones in Oakland recently, and I'm really getting into it. It's a form of kajukenbo, which is itself a blend of karate, jiujitsu, kenpo, and shaolin. Wun Hop Kuen Do is heavy on the shaolin, and is really intense. The philsophy seems to be to create such a quick and overwhelming offensive that the opponent has great difficulty once a hit has landed. It's made to be practical for the streets, but it is still quite fluid and fun to practice. The class atmosphere is great too. I'm going to stay with these guys as long as possible.

Subform

Im practicing Taek Won Do. Been doing it for alittle under a year by now .. Gonna get my 8 kup next time .. Yay

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more fire

I used to do karate, been thinking about getting back into it

bigO

Well, it turns out a lot of people do a lot of weird martial arts, most of which I've never heard of.
I do Yoshinkan Aikido (http://www.aikido.org.il/). I've been doing it for a couple of years I guess but too a few years off in the middle (school). I love the motion and the relaxed state you get to in doing Jiu Waza techniques (flow motion). It's really amazing what you can do to a man without using almost no force at all, simply by redirecting the motion of the opponent.

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Sun Tzu

Has anyone here had a good length of experience in a discipline of martial arts especially more agressive ones like kali/escrima/muay thai turned to akido? I just had a couple of questions.

I hope this doesnt tear up the thread too much but it seems to be the only gathering area for martial artists

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Jonsgirl

I just started, but I'm learning Tae Kwon Do and Silat.

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kel

.357 sig with a GL-31... for personal defence (of which I have no need so that stays @ home in the safe) But for fitness I practice and study from a friend (age 50+) who has been practicing his whole life and studied a variety of flavors. What I get from him isn't directly attributable to any particular school. The emphasis mostly is on forms forms forms and actually fighting. Obviously the fighting doesn't last to long so most of what we do is forms and "playfighting" where I don't get hurt to bad :-P
Been @ it for a year and half now since I started college.

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bobw

not technically a martial art, but boxing.

Sun Tzu

Bruce Lee repsected western boxing as one of the best martial arts used to develop key attributes.

Boxers may not train to chop to the throat, or do spinning reverse crescent inverted double snapped flying kicks, but in comparrison to the sparring Ive seen in many dojos they have tools to be reckoned with (if they are a hard training boxer)

IMHO a jab right cross is better than a reverse punch from a horse stance any day.

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