I see that I haven't done a very good job of making my ideas clear at all either.
Speed limits are just a part of what protects poor dumb ignorant people, like me, from people that feel that they should be able to do whatever, whenever, and wherever they want. They help to keep chaos from reigning supreme. They help keep society just a tad bit more...civilized.

But that's just not true.

What makes you think that people who feel that they should be able to do whatever they want will suddenly have respect for others because you post a sign telling them they can't speed? Those people are going to speed whether you have laws against it or not. You're just inconveniencing the rest of us on our way to the store and costing everybody more money.

Now, I agree that when these people start killing and hurting others, we should put a stop to it, then the costs of not doing something begin to outweigh the costs of doing something.

*takes deep breath*..... erm, i am wasting my time here, arent i? my tongue in cheek response was actually trying to bait you a little, but now i see you really are 100% serious in what you are saying. but i guess everybody is entitled to there view.

I don't. That's why I pay the cops. To ensure that those that have no respect for others, have at least some motivation to show some.

Can you tell me why you find it necessary to speed to the grocerry store. How is that inconveniencing you?

Have you ever scraped what was left of a 7 year old up from off of the pavement? Picking up pieces that you don't even know what the hell are anymore? Have you ever found a little girls shoe three houses down from where it was literaly blown off of her foot...never mind the foot? Have you watched on as the Fire Dept. hoses down the street to obliterate the red streak that stretches for over 75 feet? Have you listened to a mother wail in anguish, as she rock herself back and forth, kneeling over a pile of twisted scrap metal that used to be a little girls bicycle?
I have. In fact, that's why I'm not a cop anymore. That one did me in. 20 year old kid screaming how it was all her fault. How he couldn't see her pedal out of her driveway and onto the street. How he couldn't possibly have stopped. Well...I agree with him there. He was doing at least 50 in a residential 25 zone.
So...yeah...I agree. A stop does have to be put to it. Before some other poor dumb sonofabitch has to clean another Meredith off the asphalt. That was her name, by the way. 12 years later...I still know her name.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/...eedercams.html
The city of Cinncinati will bring in $12 million from traffic cameras. If people obeyed the traffic laws the city would lose all this revenue. How can you possibly believe that this city wants people to obey the traffic laws?

I don't think I have to justify my actions, I think you should have to justify prohibiting them, but to answer your question: I am inconvenienced by your laws because I am charged fines if I go too fast.

And no, I've never had to do those things. However,

1. Are you telling me that speeding was the cause of that accident?

2. Considering that this person sped even though the law prohibited it, what justification is there for a law that nobody obeys?

3. Even assuming that speeding is responsible for the deaths of some people, that doesn't mean it should be prohibited. We tolerate a great many activities that kill people or carry with them the risk of death, it's only when that risk becomes too great do we prohibit it.

Master your inability to reason astounds me.

Here is a test for you get 2 similar cars, run one into a telephone pole at 25 mph. Then take the other one and run it into one at 45 mph. If you are still alive then imagine now at 90 mph (the speed of 2 cars going 45 running into eachother).

I'm sorry, what is that supposed to prove?

That going at fast speeds on certian roads is very dangerous. Residential roads with cars going 45 mph is a disaster waiting to happen. Ever notice the roads that are rated higher 65/75 are typically multiple lanes with a partion in the middle?

I think driving into a tree is always dangerous, I don't know what speed you are going at has to do with it.

If your contention is that speed poses an unbearable risk or that speed limits save lives, well that's simply not true. I have found the following articles to support my position.

http://www.clickmagazine.net/cm/Arti...sp?Article=176

http://www.motorists.org/pressreleases/montana.html

http://www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana_2001.htm

http://www.fleetplan.co.uk/news_04_07_22_speeding.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html

According to those Montana articles, when the speed limits were reintroduced, the highway fatality figures went up. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but speed limits might actually kill more people than they save.

so we should all fang it as fast as we can everywhere we go?
You know what when I first got my license I did that...until one time I almost hit a pole at 100kph. That woulda been my death. Thank god I never hit and killed a kid the times I'd hit 130kph in the street near my house.
Should we all do that?

There are laws and rules everywhere. There's laws (as I understand it) for the audubon (sp?) in Germany. I believe there are minimum speed limits. Not everyone is allowed to drive on those roads. So if you don't come up to par you have to get off. You want those same kind of rules here?? We can't have those same laws on ALL our streets. For every law there are benefits and drawbacks. Here we have maximum speed limit laws. Follow those laws and you shouldn't get nailed. If you slip or purposely speed and get in trouble then deal with it. IF you find that you've been penalized or ticketed for more than what is your due, THEN there is a process for you to resolve that. Hubby was ticketed once for going much more than he actually was speeding. It was in a county several hours from where we lived but he followed the approved process to get the punishment changed. It worked out that he was able to speak on the phone to the right person and they didn't removed the ticket completely or the fine. But the DID reduce the number of points put on his liscense. They are usually willing to work with you if you are respectful and follow the correct paths to appeal it.

I was stopped once for going 10 over. It was an honest mistake and accidental. I wasn't paying attention which is just as dangerous (perhaps more so in some cases) as purposely speeding. I believe the officer could tell it was an honest mistake. I apologized and got off with a written warning.

I think a lot of it matters on your attitude and respect. Any dummy can tell if you don't respect him. Of course they'll not go easy on you if you don't show respect. I'm not saying that you didn't show respect but you're complaint sounds as though you didn't truely respect him and it may have seeped through your manner. Good luck.

I have no idea what we should all do, I'm not a lifestyle coach or anything. Do what you want; until your activity harms me or others I have no problem with it.

Now as I cant drive yet I , and that seems where the majority of the debate is, I thought I wouldn't say anything, but since that was said I decided I will.

Of COURSE it DOESN"T mean they are wankers. But the police might be going with the statistics; now for all I know the majority of 'nice car' drives might be clean, but lets just say they aren't...

Cops protect people, and when they see those 'nice cars' they go with the majority. Of course not all 'nice car' drivers are druggies, speeders or generally abusers; but more people who drive sup'd up cars are younger, and generally younger people are experimenting.

Cops are TRYING to save lives.

Imagine if a crazed drug addict has a gun to your head, hates your guts, and is probalby going to shoot you. Cop walks in. He (or she , equal gender rights) and the first thing they notice is the gun to your head. Of course he MAY not shoot, the gun MAY be a bubble gun, the drugs could be PROZAC making him mentally stable, but should the cop take that chance?

Now that is an extreme, but for every cop its judgement; look at the chances, and then act. Who is hurt if they pull you over for 5 minutes? Unless you have a quick acting poison, it probably won't.

Oh yeah, and not all cops are trafficers. Think of Detectives who investigate who murdered your wife. Would you rather not have them doing that? Think of cops who stop mass tele marketing, think of the ones who stop mass murderers. Sure some may be well dickheads, but not all.

So when you next get pulled over, think that one cop may be a retard, but the majority is saving yo' ass everyday.

FWIW, I drove on the autobahn last year from Munchen to Salzburg Austria. There were times where we had to slow down when we got into towns and villages, and of course construction.

I will say they take driving very serious out there when on the highway.

I don't know why one of you paid thru the nose for your license. I just rented a benz and I just showed them my NYC liscence.

Master Shake, where do you live and what kind of car do you drive? I just want to know where to stay away from. The police are protecting us from people like you, the typical driver who thinks he can speed all he wants because he has "superior driving skills."

The fact that YOU cannot understand why driving 50mph in a residential neighborhood is not safe simply ASTOUNDS me. I never knew someone could be that hard-headed with his opinions that logic flies over his head.

Your argument saying that the risk of hitting someone is not a reason to slow down is asinine. It is almost as saying one can go around shooting a gun off in various directions is legal, but once you hit someone, then you have to pay. Why not make shooting guns off at random illegal??? That is why they have speed limits, to reduce the chance of injuring pedestrians or other innocent drivers. Maybe you should read up on the stopping distance of driving at 25mph and 50mph and the reaction time included. Then get back to us.

Alot of the cops around here are robocops, yet alot are also pretty chill. The times arent what they used to be as the older people would say, and the majority of the time my friends and I do get busted at parties and get sent off. Regarding traffic violations, speeding is a major cash flow for em I believe. If theres somebody driving recklessly in a downtown area, i would fully support the officer for giving the person a citation. Although, if it is something as stupid as not having both their rear wheels fully over the line whent he light turns red, but their wheels are 3/4 over and theres no real risk of hitting other cars because there arent any, or its a big intersection, or hell even if it was somebody elses fault like the moron in front of you wasn't paying attention and began moving too late, then thats when you can tell if the cop is a scumbag or not, and unfortunately chances are i think your going to get a scumbag in that situation just wanting to get his quota filled =/

I was going to participate further in this discussion, but has gone downhill and is no longer an active sharing of opinions and exeperiences, with complete respect for all members opinions. If I can find the data I'm looking for from my three years of driving study(my field of study), I'll post them for a stastical reference.

So you DID have illegal parts on your car. You didn't check to see if all of your signals worked before you pulled out of the lot?

Speed limits are the MAXIMUM speeds you can legally drive in a given area. It's not a suggestion, it's a law. If you drive 10 kmh over the LIMIT 1000 times and don't get caught doing it until the 1001st time, it's not the first time you've broken the law. It's just the first time you've gotten caught.

When you applied for and accepted your driver's license, you agreed to obey the traffic laws of whatever country, state, county, city, or podunk area in which you drive. If you break the law, you're a criminal.

You've admitted to breaking the law at least twice in your post, yet it's the cops who are the bad guys. Best advice? Don't give them ANY reason to pull you over. And if you do get stopped for something accept the responsibility for doing it. GROW UP! :rolleyes:

People always assume speeding means speeding everywhere, if anyone had a concept of a safe speed and there were more qualified drivers on the road then we wouldn't need speed limits at all. Anyone that hits a child in a residential area needs to be arrested and prosecuted assuming they are actually the ones at fault. There are some places where people shouldn't go above the posted speed limit, construction zones, school areas(not just 50 feet before the crosswalks), and residential areas, the rest IMO are fair game for going a safe speed be it above the speed limit or not. In my area you are more likely to be stopped for going 10 MPH over the speed limit than for running a stop light with a police car sitting there watching you do it. To me thats rediculous that someone could actually argue that speeding will cause an accident faster than someone running a red light. Speeding doesn't cause accidents, excessive speeding(read reckless driving) can though.

I don't believe that speed limits are imposed on us as a method of control but I do believe that they are imposed upon us because the government won't stop handing out licenses to people who have no business driving a golf cart let alone something as massive as an automobile(or SUV's for soccer moms).

I also don't agree with the use of the word pigs, its childish, grow up. Police officers do a job I, or anyone bitching about how much they suck, wouldn't touch with a 100 foot pole, yet people are dicks to them and wonder why most of their experiences with the police suck.

Lastly, I appologise if this seems confusing but I don't put my thoughts into typed form well. Speed if you will, but at least be safe about it.

We're all in this together. The speed limits aren't just there to prevent me from speeding and running myself into a tree, they're supposed to be there to prevent someone who thinks he's a superior driver from driving along at 25 over the limit, and then swerving to avoid a kid, and then slamming into me. If he was doing the limit he might have been able to avoid the kid and come to a safe stop, OR he may have hit the kid at only 10mph, where it has a better chance of not getting hurt.

See what I'm getting at? The speed limits aren't there to limit your (not speaking to any one poster here) individual rights, they're more to protect everybody from everyboy else's crazy actions. Sure, sometimes you wonder if you're obeying the law because you agree with it, or because you don't want to get caught breaking it, but in the end does it matter? Whatever it takes for people to slow down and get rid of the 'I'm a superior driver and the government hands out licences like candy' mentality is a good thing.

Can't people see that if everybody chooses their own speed there'd be chaos? (Don't give me the autobahn example, please, lots of people have mentioned that's it's not that simple, that people really concentrate, AND that the autobahn is already established and has been for a long time, the users know how to do it, it appears.) Why do you think you have the right to choose when to speed and when not to? How can you justify speeding in some areas, but then say 'Think of the children!' when in a school zone? If everyone has their own opinion on when it is 'safe' to speed then you'd get lots who think it's safe to speed in a school zone, how do you react to that? My point is that personal opinion shouldn't matter that much when it comes to speed limits. Consistency is the key word here, and we need a higher authority to make sure everyone obeys the speed limits to keep us safe on the roads.

i don't mind speed limits but i do wish that police used discretion when giving speeding tickets. if I was driving 200mph on a straight open road, or in any situation in which it was safe to do so, police should not give a ticket. they should be punishing the tailgaters, the people who attempt dangerous manuvers in traffic, etc. the essence of the speed limit is to make it very easy for a police officer to stop a person driving wrecklessly, because they are likely going faster than these typically-low speed limits. use some discretion, that's all.

Uhhh, they do. Cops do not give out just speeding tickets there buddy. Just yesterday I was driving home from BestBuy and this guy cuts in front of me without using his turn signal. Sure enough, an officer was right behind him and promptly pulled him over in front of me. Now that is protecting people. USE YOUR GODDAMN TURN SIGNALS!!!

Another note, when is it ever SAFE to go 200mph on a public road???

You just stated the main reason why it works, "people really concentrate" and "the users know how to do it", why can't any of the people here drive like that? Jesus, you mean I have to pay attention while I'm driving? But I have to text message someone about my new shoes and change the radio station while eating a sandwich, oh and I'm speeding that must be why I ran down that nun in the crosswalk. I used to driving for a living I used to log over 4,000 miles a month, people actually do stupid crap like that while driving I have seen it.


I don't have that right, I gave it up when I signed for my drivers license. I agreed to allow them to take legal action against me if I break any of their rules, I have no argument with that, I'm not so big a rebel that I would take the bus simply to make a statement. I'll speed where I go if its safe to do so and I'll pay the citation if I get one, no skin off my back its only money. I just think that if more resposibility were placed upon the driver to be a good driver(read not incompetent) then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. You honestly cannot tell me that there aren't people out there driving that wouldn't be if there were more stringent requirements to drive in the first place.


Respect for children is a good start. Speeding isn't the devil here, reckless driving is. You obviously associate speeding with the abandonment of safety.


That's the point, people should know its not safe to go blazing past a school or through a neighborhood but they don't because drivers licenses are handed out like candy on halloween, people don't understand the consequenses of their actions until its after they hurt someone.


Good point. You appear to be in the majority.


No we don't, I don't need a babysitter and I'm only 23. I would hope anyone by the age of 16 doesn't either. The speed limit won't make it any more safe for me to drive to the corner store. Some soccer mom on her cell phone driving the 8,000LB SUV that seats 10 adults comfortably while only having a regular drivers license(not one with a rating for a commercial sized vehicle) running the red light because she's on her cell phone or playing with her radio is more of a concern to me. I live in a neighborhood with a junior high school at one end of it. You should see the way these parents drive through here, about 8 years ago I think it was a kid got creamed on a bicycle because of one of those soccer moms flying through my neighborhood, she was driving like a moron and she hit a child because of it. Theres no excuse for that kind of behavior, but to assume that everyone who speeds is driving like a moron...well ignorance is bliss.

So please, explain why speeding alone is dangerous(I'm not talking excessivly either), I'm talking like 60 in a 45 on a 4 lane road with a median separating oncoming traffic with very few streets intersecting, oh and one more detail lets add a qualified driver who is paying attention to what is around him/her. It's 6am I'm going to bed I look forward to the replies.

I drive over the speed limit a lot. Sure I am not obeying the law. If I get a ticket I am not going to bitch. I know I am in the wrong. I am gonna pay the ticket and that is final.

If you get a ticket you deserved it. I've gotten Fines before for stupid things I did when I was younger. Sure I fought some which I shouldn't have got. I paid the ones I deserved.
If I run a stop sign infront of a cop #1. I am stupid for doing it #2. I deserved the ticket.
If you friend was speeding infront of a cop he deserved the ticket and everything else he got.

My friend was driving with an expired liscense. He knew it was expired. He got caught they fined him and impounded his car. In the end it was his own fault and it could have been avoided if he followed the law.

After reading this entire post, I thought I'd throw my opinion out. First of all this post has degraded from what it was started about. It was originally started about someone getting pulled over for "Exhibition of speed" i.e. flooring it from a stoplight. He then bitched because the cop basically looked his car over with a fine tooth comb. This is like complaining because you are walking down the street with two guns in holster on your hips like they did in the wild west. There is nothing illegal about it per se, but you will get attention and most likely will be stopped by a cop and talked to. The guns are in plain view, you are not brandishing them, and so far you have shown no malicious intent. If you don't think someone will say something about, think again. The potential is there for serious damage. The same thing with the car. Wether you believe it or not the car you drive is a loaded weapon. The potential is there for serious damage. It all depends on how you control it.
As for the cop going over the car with a fine tooth comb because it was a tricked out ride, well lets put it this way. If every friday night you end up running down kids who race these exact types of cars drag racing and such (exhibiting the speed they have under the hood), well when you find one on a thursday morning who happened to do something wrong, well its better to try and keep them from exhibiting speed now than to wait until you have to get the tomorrow night. Remember the saying "one in the hand is better than two in the bush?" Consider your friend the one in the hand.

More criminals are caught by a simple traffic stop, than by catching them in the act! An unsafe lane change, rolling through a stop sign, peeling out, a broken taillight, etc. could be all that stops the next mass murderer from killing one of your loved ones.

As far as cops being bad, who are you going to call when someone breaks into your car and steals the radio, or your souped up engine, or *gasp* even your car itself? THE COPS! Funny how now they turn out to be your friend isn't it? And how do you think they are going to catch the guy who stole your car? Most likely it will happen in an everyday traffic stop, and then going over the car with a fine tooth comb, and *gasp* what's that, it looks like a stolen radio according to the serial #, or they run the plate and it doesn't match the VIN. Next thing you know you get your stuff back and the criminal who stole your stuff goes to jail. All from a little traffic stop. Remember the cops don't know who they are pulling over until they have pulled them over. Your buddy could very well have a gun, drugs, stolen property, or nothing in the car with them. The cops don't know, they put their life on the line everytime they pull someone over. You think they like that? Not knowing wether this guy in the flashy sports car, or the beat up old Dodge, is looking to kill them the first chance they get?
Next time you see a cop, tell them thanks. Next time they pull you over, turn on your light (if its nightime) put your hands on the wheel and wait until they ask you to roll down your window, give them what they ask for, be polite and not condescending, and you might just be suprised. They might let you go, they might give you a ticket, it all depends on what you did wrong and what your attitude is towards them, and of course there might be a prick for a cop. There are all kinds, but remember they are just doing their jobs. How would you like it if everytime we went by your place of work and hurled insults at you, just for doing your job? It would kind of put you off wouldn't it?

As for speed limits, there are numerous reasons for them which many have all ready been listed. But the number one reason is this "without order there is chaos." If everyone just did what they wanted on the roads there would be chaos. As it is, how many people just change lanes in front of you without using their blinkers? How many times does this slow you down, or cause you to slam on your brakes? Now what if you were doing 100 MPH in a 35 MPH zone when some person did this while they themselves just wanted to pass the guy doing 35 MPH, while they wanted to go 60 MPH? You would have to go from 100 down to 60 pretty damn fast, or .....someone is getting in an accident. Now who is going to have to pay. The other person didn't do anything wrong, they were just doing what they wanted to do, and you ran smack into them.
The laws are there to protect everyone. Just because you think you drive like a NASCAR driver, others can't. These laws put you more a level playing field. In this case you would most likely both get cited. You for driving way over the speed limit. Them for speeding and an unsafe lane change. Who would get the blame for the accident.....you. 99% of the time if you rear end someone you are at fault. Why? Because you should have been going at a sufficent enough speed to stop or avoid them.
Remember driving IS a privlege NOT a right! You agreed to follow all traffic laws when you signed on the line for your lisence. If you don't agree with the laws do something to change them, don't just sit there and cry about it. If you don't like the speed limits, don't drive, but if you do drive and you do break a law, accept your punishment.

One last thing. Do you put your hand in boiling water? Why not? Did you get burned really bad once? If you get burned for speeding once will you learn to obey the law? What if they made you pay a whole months paycheck and put a bunch of points on your driving record? Would that help slow you down? If you did it again and they took your car away, would that help? It is the same concept.

My friend who lived about 30 miles from me farther out in the country invited me to come over and do some target practicing. It was a nice day so I decided to ride my Harley.

I strapped my AR15 rifle to the sissy bar and loaded up the saddle bags with ammo and a hand gun. I knew this might get some attention but it was 7 in the morning on Sunday so off I went.

When I got to his small town a couple of patrolmen pulled me over. They were laughing and said some lady called them from her car phone and was all upset. They said they knew it was probably no problem since I was not hiding anything and seemed mostly just amused.

After checking to see that I had a gun permit they admired my bike for a while and told me to have a nice day.

Really, you don't have to worry about me. I don't speed and I do follow the law. I obey and do what I am told, I'm not going to cause any trouble. Now, I don't behave this way because I respect the law or because I agree with it, I do it because I've given up.

I've also never claimed to have superior driving skills, and were it legal I doubt I would speed. But I still completely disagree with bullshit speed limits that are designed to raise revenue and control people.

The cops have never turned out to be my friend, at best they can be professional and take down the information and turn over the incident report number so I can get it to the insurance company. At worst, they can come by and harrass me even further.
I've been beaten and robbed, and had my car vandalized and my radio stolen. Sure, the first time I called the cops, but then they just wasted more of my time and nothing ever got done. I haven't reported subsequent incidents, and won't unless I have to for insurance purposes.

That's ridiculous, the laws cannot be changed because there's too much money invested in continuing the current system.

At the risk of bumping this infantile discussion, surely it stands to simple logic that if you drive too fast, you're less in control of your car. Speeding on any road where there are other cars or stationary objects is inherently dangerous because it is such an enormous factor in the outcome of an accident.

You're driving a half-ton block of metal, and your reaction times are proven to be reduced at higher speeds. Your stopping distance is also reduced at higher speeds. These things are contirbuting factors to fatal accidents. As I think others have tried to impress upon you, if you smash up a car at 30 and at 60, you see two totally different wrecks.

And barrelling along in a big piece of metal, you start to feel slightly invulnerable, like if you're going slow, a crash won't hurt much. Even a slow crash can pack a surprising amount of wallop. I crashed once at 35mph, which is a pretty normal speed for the UK, and my car was totalled. A real mess. I was left with a crack in my left tibia, a severely sprained wrist and whiplash. I dread to think what might have happened if I was going any faster. Not speeding there definitely saved me from worse injury, and could conceivably have saved my life.

Incidentally the crash wasn't my fault. That girl's insurance company paid off my student loan.

Of course if you drive too fast you're less in control of your car, the question is what is too fast? I submit that the speed limits currently imposed on US drivers in nearly every instance are too low. The reason they are set artificially low is to raise revenue and control people.

Additionally, just because something is dangerous does not mean it should be prohibited. We are after all, talking about degrees of danger, 5 more MPH may or may not pose a significant danger to other people. I suggest that rather than have the government force speeds on everyone, let people determine the speed that suits them best. Yes, some people will drive too fast, but people already drive too fast. Your bullshit laws are not preventing the very activity you claim they are designed to. When a law is so inadequate as to fail to prevent dangerous activity and only serve to harrass and annoy others, it should be repealed.

Look to other ways to make the roads safer if safety is really your concern. Like the war on drugs, the war on speeding has failed miserably for all except the government, which raises a shitload in revenue while pretending to do something.

As numerous others have said, how would we handle this? If you decide that 100mph 'suits you best', and I decide that 50mph 'suits me best', how are you going to react when you're behind me on the street? Are you going to start honking and flashing your lights? And what if the guy behind you decides that driving his Porsche at 180mph 'suits him best'?

Everyone choosing their own speeds will lead to absolute chaos on the roads.

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html

A government study that indicates that 85% of the people on the road will drive at a reasonable speed regardless of the speed limit. The other 15% aren't obeying your laws already, and your speed limits aren't affecting their desire to drive really fast. Why inconvenience the rest of us when your bullshit laws aren't doing what they are designed to do?

Additionally, when the speed limits were repealed in Montana a few years ago:

http://www.motorists.org/pressreleases/montana.html

Improved lane courtesy without speed limits, imagine that. Your argument that lack of limits leads to chaos is without historical precedent, as exactly the opposite has been observed.

First of all, (assuming you're in the USA) why is a cop searching you car whitout a warrant at the time of the ticket?

Why would he need a warrent? Ever hear of probable cause?

It is stuff like 'probable cause' that makes so many people, especially younger, people dislike cops. Being young seems to be enough probable cause for a search.

There's nothing in his story that would give the cop probable cause to search the vehicle. Speeding, having a fancy car, and being an idiot do not rise to the level of probable cause for a search. Perhaps there was something else that gave the cop probable cause, for example, a sticker exclaiming to the world that the guy had illegal parts or something, but none of that was mentioned in the story.

Having said that, there are alternative ways for the cop to search the guy's car. The most likely is that he got permission.

What, you ask, why would the guy give the cop permission? Because damn near everybody gives the cops permission. Cops carry guns and are an intimidating presence. People act stupid, even when it's agains their own interest when cops start asking questions.

Cooperating with the police is never in your best interest. The cops are not your friend in these situations. You have to obey their orders (they do carry guns) but you'd be a fool to do anything more.

Edit: In fairness, I am speaking from an American viewpoint, specifically regarding the laws of Pennsylvania. I have no idea how they treat such people in Canada or the Ukraine.

Not quite. If you had a gun sitting on the dash when he pulled you over, then yeah he has probable cause. Minus that, a cop has no reason to search your car if he pulled you over. You got stopped for speeding, running a red light, whatever. Not becasue you have 5 kilos of coke under the floorboard in your trunk. He doesn't know that, and unless you volunteer the info (then things change) or give consent right then and there, he can't search your car. Period.

Ever hear of the 4th amendment?

Bullshit! All the cop has to say in court is that he 'thought' he saw or smelled something and at that point he thought that a search of the vehicle is warrented.

It may not be totatlly legal, but it is done all the time. I brother-in-law's girlfriend got a DUI last summer even though her BAC was under the legal limit. She got pulled over for crossing the fogline on a 4 lane road pulling out of the restauranty they were at. She had never drove the truck before, so she wasn't used to it. She did not have the money to get a lawyer and contest it as hard as she should have even thought the DA said that this cop was known for doing stuff like this. The cop testified that even though he BAC was below the limit, in his estimation she was driving under the influence.

I know that story is not a search and seizure example, but I thought it belonged in the 'Crooked Cops' thread.

Well, your brother-in-law's girlfriend got screwed. Big time. She should have fought it. If her BAC was under the legal limit then a good lawyer should have got her off or at least get it reduced. In his "estimation?" What estimation was that? It wasn't a breathalyzer test. How did he determine that she was under the influence? Where did he draw the line? Did the cop somehow makeup his own law right then and there? That's why there's a legal limit. So that the cops don't do stupid shit like this. I just don't see how a cop that is known for pulling stupid shit still gets to hold a badge.

We could go on and on about what defines "probable cause" since it isn't defined in the 4th amendment. Every case is different. Still, what happened to her was totally fucked up and she should have fought that bogus charge.

Maybe it is more about money than we think. A bill introduced in Georgia to try and reduce the number of speed traps on the freeways.