Carno

Look, people don't drive cars in restaurants, so you point is invalid. You're free to smoke outside, and my sister just avoids people smoking on the street. It's when she is indoors and there are many people smoking that she has a problem.

And anyways, if you can't go an hour or two without having a smoke, you have a real problem.

Coppertop

California has had this law now for about 6-8 years or so. Yeah, people bitched for a few months. Not anymore, it's just a part of life now. Smokers go outside to smoke. Lots of bars have patios and such. Pretty simple.

And I also am glad I can come home from a bar and not smell like an ashtray. Bleah.

Lak

Eating McDonalds doesn't force the person next to you to also eat McDonalds reguardless of thier desires.

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ignorance really is bliss.

Techno

My bad. Didn't realise the law only specifically applies indoors. I was arguing against the whole concept. I find the no smoking in restaurants to be an arse, simply because a decent meal should be always followed with a tasty cigarette.

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"Don't take any guff from these swine"

Carno

In Florida bars and such allow smoking. The only establishments where smoking is prohibited is places where more than 15% of their income is from food items.

Antikarma

I'm a smoker and I think its a good idea. I'm sorry, I may smoke, but I'm VERY aware of the hazards it poses to both myself and those around me. I'll keep my slow and painful death to myself thank you. I would have lit up in bars before, only because I could. I don't mind stepping out now to do so.

(speaking of Canada, and the new laws in the NWT)

__________________

"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

WillyPete

Please stop causing the government to create pollutants by providing you with electricity and taking away your trash.
I recommend you turn off your pc right now and cease eating.

Thank you for your participation.

See, some things can go to the nth degree and it's dumb.
The pollution from a car is an acceptable side effect and western governments are pushing to change it.
No matter what you do, you can't really make healthy cigarette smoke. The pollution itself is your pleasure. And it's not really as if someone has parked an idling diesel engine at the table next to you in the pub, there's a lot more movement of air in the road than there is in a pub.

With the push for UK non-smoking, it's more of a factor of providing a safe working place for the catering and entertainment staff.

Prince

Second-hand smoke, in fact even just the smell of tobacco ignites a migraine for me, complete with cold sweat, shaking, and vomiting.

Smoking = disgusting to me. Smokers = disgusting to me. For these purely selfish reasons, I am all for this type of law.

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Who is John Galt?

ShaniFaye

Its so nice to know Im disgusting

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Techno

-the wonderful environment and the goverment tangent-

I'm going to utterly ignore the attitude. Not worth it. I am going to take your trash and make it useful, though.
You raise a valid point , how can we move to an environmentally sound society? I believe that the overnight elimination of all polluntant production is impossible, but I also believe that the protecting the environment outweighs convienience (for example, most people's reason for owning a car) and entertainment (the PC example). My solution would be for the government to say "This is the amount of pollution the atmosphere can handle*" (and food production would definitely be in the "neccessary pollution" category, btw. Food production really should be nationalised or something). I don't mind not getting consumer goods (and if needs be, electricity**) until they can find a way of making them without fucking up the air.

/tangent

Back to the smoking. I like the idea of the staff getting to decide, as has been done in English pubs.

On another not too unrelated tangent (I am TangentMan!), the anti-smoking laws add weight to the governments right to decide what is good for its citizens. As a prolegalisation type, this makes my job harder.

* It may be whacky science, but I'm reasonably confident a smaller amount of pollution can be safely dissipated into our environment.

** I'm reasonably sure you're not going to believe me. I like to think I can hold to my beliefs. It's just one of those things. I love having electricity. But I like knowing the planets not getting fucked too. It's just inefficient.

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"Don't take any guff from these swine"

Painted

My gripe with the situation is that people aren't just bashing cigarettes, they're bashing the smokers as well. Well what the fuck is that? I can't enjoy smoking my cancer sticks because you might get a little sick? I'm some sort of barbaric enemy because I smoke? I'm sick of this shit. "Smokers are disgusting" "Smokers are soo stupid" Well, fuck you. Fuck you.

filtherton

Whoa there buddy, calm down. At least have the cajones to admit that smoking cigarettes is, for anyone seriously concerned about their health and longevity, not the smartest course of action. I don't have a problem with smokers as people, i just think many of them are overly sensitive to criticism because deep down they know what they are doing to themselves is not only foolish, but expensive.

What if i walked up to you and made a proposition. What if i offered to have you pay me 4-5 dollars american every day in exchange for me slowly deteriorating your health to the point where you can't even walk up a flight of stairs without an oxygen tank. Not only that, but in exchange for your money i would also make it so the health of everyone in your immediate vicinity was adversely effected too. Tell me this doesn't sound completley ridiculous. This is a proposition smokers accept over and over, every day. Tell me that's a good decision worthy of respect.

Glory's Sun

I wouldn't take your offer mainly because I don't spend that much everyday. I spend $2.64 cents for my pack of camels and I smoke a pack and half a week.. maybe more if I drink alot. Other than that sure I'd take your proposal. I choose to smoke knowing the "dangers" and what have you. My neighbor told me I should stop smoking so I could die healthy. Ok ..you tell me why that's so important. Why does it matter if I die healthy or not? You end up doing the same thing. To say that my decision isn't worthy of respect is insulting in itself. You're saying that what I want to do ( and yeah I'm a very respectful smoker) is just dumb. It may be dumb in your eyes but to me.. it's something I like to do. If they want to ban smoking in public places..fine.. I'll adjust but please..don't call me ignorant, stupid or anything else just because I make a conscious decision to smoke. I wonder if they same kind of attitudes would present themselves if all of a sudden it wasn't "cool" to drink. .. I wonder

filtherton

I don't really drink either, because yeah, i think it's a self destructive waste of time and money. This isn't about being "cool". This is about the majority, which doesn't smoke, not having to put up with the dangerous filthy habit of a minority. I didn't say smokers were ignorant, in fact, i know many smokers who are really intelligent. Despite their intelligence, some of them can't seem to grasp the idea that people generally don't want to be exposed to more carcinogens than they are already exposed to.

I don't care about people dying healthy. I care about entire industries devoted to selling people their own deaths a pack at a time.

I'm sorry if you don't agree, but yes, i'm saying that smoking is a ridiculous activity. It makes absolutely no sense if you factor out addiction as motivation. Smoking has no redeeming value beyond satisfying an addiction. I don't think your decision is worthy of respect, and i have every right to not respect your decision for reasons i have already made clear. Perhaps you could tell me why your decision deserves my respect. Personally, "Because i enjoy it" is a good excuse to do something that is not directly linked to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people every year.

Let me be clear though in case this got lost in the hustle. I don't care if people smoke, i just don't want to have to smell that shit. I don't respect anyone who feels that satisfying their own addictions is more inportant than not poisoning their fellow human being.

Glory's Sun

I understand that it's not about being "cool" but look at the 80's when people considered it "cool" to smoke. You had alot less bitching back then. I can respect your decision not to smoke and while I think in return I should get the same respect, that's obviously a lost cause. People kill people everyday. It's a fact of life. I just think there are more issues that kill just as many people that are being pushed under the rug.

also, this quote could be used for any number of major corporations. Smoking, Alcohol, Food, Drug you name it. These companies have chemicals and other things they sell to people one dose, meal, drink, or pack at a time yet the only people that seem to get villified are the smokers. Choose how you will and what you will do and I will do the same.

filtherton

I know that there are many behaviors people choose to engage in that are self destructive in many of the same ways that smoking is. I'm not ignoring them. It's just that this thread is about smoking. I respect your right to smoke, but i don't think smoking deserves respect. I put smokers in the same category as alcoholics, or really any person who gives an addiction higher priority than personal health.
You seem like an intelligent person, i don't think you're dumb, i just don't think smoking is a worthwhile activity. I smoked for nearly a decade. I'm 23. While i know that it was enjoyable(satisfying an addiction generally is), i also know that i am probably going to live to regret it. I'm at a point where i don't want to be around smoke, and i generally avoid it when i can. I wouldn't have a problem with being exposed to smoking on a regular basis if it didn't put my health at risk. Unfortunately it does.

sprocket

Sorry, the anti smoking laws are pure bullshit. Not allowing the private business owner to the permission to decide whether its a smoking or non smoking establishment is outrageous.

All the studies linking second hand smoke to cancer and heart disease have been falsified. The data just doesnt support that assertion that second hand smoke is harmful in any signifigant way. So really the only justification left for these laws is that smoke is annoying to a non smoker. If your a non smoker that is bothered that much by smoke, dont go into a bar/resteraunt/establishment where smoking is allowed.

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Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Fred181

I don't think people are bashing the smokers at all, at least during this discussion, on this board. People are bashing your paticular habit that they disagree with, but no one should be bashing you for choosing your habit.

However, to your point "I can't enjoy smoking my cancer sticks because you might get a little sick?", I think it is unfortunate that I can't walk down the street punching people. Not very hard mind you, just some light punches to the gut; it makes me feel good to release a little steam now and again. Sounds absourd huh?

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My heart will be restless until it finds its final rest. Then they can weigh it...

filtherton

It's not outrageous, it's par for the course. Goverrnment has always regulated business in the name of public health.

I'd be very interested to see data supporting the idea that secondhand smoke isn't dangerous, especially in light of the fact that it can induce asthma attacks in people who suffer from asthma.

Even if it is were just a matter of annoyance(which i don't think it is), that still doesn't mean making laws against it is outrageous. Noise pollution laws are all about curbing annoyance.

Not that i'm actually advocating this but, if you wan't to take a hardline stance, it you're a smoker who is bothered that much by not being able to smoke, don't frequent establishments that won't let you smoke.

Prince

Yeah. It's all a major government conspiracy, run by shadow corporations within the gentle fabric of the heartland of America. How dare they feed us this mumbo jumbo about the negative side effects of things we enjoy? Fuck logic, this is Thunderdome!

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Who is John Galt?

MSD

I fully support anti-smoking laws. I love having cleaner air. I also think that we should ban motor vehicles, fireplaces, public flatulence, oil-burning heaters, wood-burning stoves, campfires, charcoal grills, and the outdoor grazing of cows and other farm animals. They all produce pollution that gets into my lungs and acid rain that falls on my property. I feel that we should raise income taxes by at least 10% across the board to support enforcement of these laws.

Additionally, since indoor air eventually circulates to the outdoors, we should mandate smoke alarms in every room of every building in the country. Any time one of those detectors is set off, the owner should be arrested and fined for negatively affecting the air quality in our country and shortening my life by forcing me to inhale their pollutants.

Since air can easily flow across national borders, we should look out for ourselves, and declare war on any country that does not immediately agree to conform to our new standards. To avoid the dangerous levels of pollution created by a typical war, we will mount our horses (who will be outfitted with diapers made of gas mask filter material to prevent gaseous emissions,) and pick up our spears, swords, bows, and arrows and invade. For the overseas countries, we'll man the canoes and sink enemy ships with ballistas.

filtherton

I fully support regulatory self determination for all private businesses. Employers, unhindered by the meddling government, will reap the benefits of paying workers third world wages. Cheap labor will be plentiful, which is good, because we won't have worker safety regulations keeping them alive. Eventually all businesses will merge into one supercorporation that controls every aspect of every human's life. This is all necessary, because the government has absolutely no right to tell businesses what they can and cannot do.

Exaggeration and hyperbole is fun!

Unfortunately for you mrselfdestruct, your polemic is hardly relevant. Or maybe i'm wrong. Maybe the ability to smoke in indoor public places is just as much a necessity as passing gas, agriculture and our current transportation infrastructure.

sprocket

Ill post links when I have time to search for data.

Under the new smoking laws in new york, and recently in my hometown in florida, you dont have that choice. Every establishment is smoke free, enforced by law. I cant vote with my dollar and frequent places that give me the option, because the option has been taken away.

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Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

filtherton

Either be uncomfortable or stay home. Currently, the smoke-averse have been making that choice for decades. I don't know of any bars in minneapolis that are smoke free. I feel your pain, though from the other side.

Carno

I wish they would just ban smoking altogether. Just the amount of litter that smokers produce is enough to make me want smoking banned.

filtherton

I think banning it would create more problems than it would solve. I think people should be able to smoke if they so desire. I just don't think anyone should be able to subject anyone else to their carcinogenic cigarette smoke.

Carno

Too bad people can't smoke without littering

MSD

Yes, it is!
I was writing in the style known as "asshole libertarian." It was an enourmous exaggeration of reality and was not entirely relevant. On the other hand, almost every draconian law has to start small and work its way up slowly enough that people don't care enough to fight it.

Public trash cans with sand-filled ashtrays on top of them have always seemed like a good idea to me. It's a shame that they're disappearing. I guess it's good for the economy, since they now have to hire a guy to go around and pick up litter in addition to the guy who enpties the trash cans.

Carno

I don't know where you live, but nobody cleans up litter here..

The beach here is a giant ashtray. You can't scoop out a handful of sand without finding several cigarette butts. Smokers just don't give a fuck.

And don't even get me started about people driving and flipping their cig butts out the window...

Bauh4us

The problem with a law like this is that is sets a precedent. We are making something that is legal, illegal (defacto illegal that is) because it can effect others in some negative way. (although the effect of second hand smoke on non smokers health is DRASTICALLY exagerrated).

Where does one draw the line here? If I choose to eat an unhealthy diet that does not effect you, unless I don't have insurance and then your tax dollars have to pay for my health care. Hmm, how can we fix this problem. I know, mandatory fat free diet and regular excersise program for everybody!!

A bit extreme of an example I know but there is a kernel of truth there. As for the worker health arguement, why can't you have a smoking establishment and then have that as a listed "hazard of the job". If you don't want to get burned by fire, don't be a fireman. If you don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke, don't be a server in a smoking bar.

As for the idea that it worked good in Cali because "bars have patios now". Well that might be because Cali has very nice weather when compared with much of the country. You can't go out on the patio when it's say, 2 degrees outside with a -22 windchill.

Filtherton said something to the effect of "if you don't like not being able to smoke, don't go somewhere where you can't smoke". I agree hold heartedly, the problem is, with this law everyplace is somewhere a person cannot smoke. That is the bad part about the law.

I am a non smoker btw.

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"I aint got time for pain! The only pain I got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!" - Terrible Terry Tate

WillyPete

Correct me if I'm wrong in detecting a selfish sense to this thread by the smokers, but are you saying that it should be up to the establishments owner whether or not to offer smoking in his premises?
And what of the chain owned premises? Do their staff get a say in their future health?

Ah, but of course, they can get new jobs if they don't like it. That's a lot more sensible than asking smokers to step outside to smoke.

Is smoking dangerous?
Hmmmm.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/causes.htmWere the law to become so tight that you couldn't smoke in your own home, then I would have an issue with it, but this is purely to protect the health of the workers in the food and entertainment industry. It's not about the non-smokers not wanting to reek of smoke or thinking that you are bad people.
These people have no voice, the dollar drowns it out. They need protecting. They have no unions like dock or mine workers.

Go ask people who work in bars. Not the young ones in college, but the ladies that have been doing it for years in smoky diners. Ask about their friends and their own health concerns. You'll be quite shocked.

ShaniFaye

a lot of people do that yes.....but I dont. If I am somewhere that there is no trash can I will put mine out then carry it with me until I am near one

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Carno

.

godxzilla

this law goes into effect here in Columbus in another month or 2. My wife (who is expecting our first child) and I went into a place to pick up wings for a get-together and the whole place was a huge cloud of smoke. I am not paranoid or anything but it still made me uncomfortable. I am very excited for the new law so we can go anywhere with our baby and know that it will be a clean environment.

I disagree with it in bars though. I think thats one place it should remain because you can be expected to leave if you dont like it. with restaraunts and other public places, you still have the choice but thats not realistic.

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Mike

Master_Shake

Great, you're replacing cigarette smoke with a crying baby. Instead of 2nd hand smoke lopping off a couple of years at the end of my miserable life, you and your shrieking offspring will ensure that what little time I have left is spent in auitory hell. Make sure you take your spawn to movie theatres, cause there's no smoke there and I for one truly appreciate the wailing cries of a newborn during a movie.

Honestly, I'd rather have the cancer.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

godxzilla

are you honestly comparing the 2? smoking and children? how old are you, 12?

The difference is, I have enough respect for the general public that I would not bring a crying baby into a theater, unlike a smoker. if it was available, there would definately be people smoking in there. not all smokers, but the ones with shit-ass dont give a damn about anyone but themselves attitude like yours.

you need to grow up.


and im sorry your life is so miserable, maybe you should just kill yourself now to save everyone else from paying for your lung replacement surgery and health care premiums.

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Mike

Master_Shake

Don't worry, I don't have insurance so nobody will be paying for my chemothearpy.

Well, big ups to you. But I've been in theatres, and people bring their snot-nosed sniveling runts in and muck up the sound. I'm sure there are smokers out there who don't smoke in crowded places too. But the great majority of them do, and the great majority of parents deem it necessary to inflict their repugnant children on the rest of us.

At least smokers aren't contributing to planetary overcrowding and excess consumption of resources. How much damage will your child inflict on the world compared to a smoker? How much fossil fuel is used by tobacco? How many third-world peasants does nicotine kill? How many people die in poverty every year so your child can grow up to be a master of the universe? Last I heard, children were working in sunless fire traps in Thailand to produce sneakers with lights in them, not cigarettes.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

WillyPete

And the bar staff?

They have the choice? You guys don't think you sound like the early mine or railroad owners with their disregard for the workers' safety?

godxzilla

but the bar staff has a choice. I think they can choose a different job. dont me wrong, im FOR the ban. im just trying to think with a level head!

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Mike

Sbudda

What I don't understand is this...

If people prefer going to bars and clubs, etc that don't allow smoking - why don't these clubs exist prior to government intervention. Hell guys, it's the internet age. All of you non-smokers could post all of the bars that are non-smoking and go and have a great non-smoking time together. Instead you have to get the damn government involved.

I can understand people not wanting me to smoke in my office building or next to them at a stadium. I have learned that it's nicer to just walk away and smoke alone - or with another poor rejected smoker. But in a bar?

"Hey Stacy, I'm gonna go to a bar and drink till my liver explodes, and take home some guy I just met and have unprotected sex, but I swear if I have to deal with just one cigerette I will shoot someone." Bah.

The person who complained about smokers getting 15 minute breaks during the day should understand how much it sucks ass to stand outside this time of year. Trust me, we would rather light up at our desks and keep on working.

And to the guy who is sticking up for the rights of the employee - wouldn't it be easier if the employees just went to the owner and asked that an exhaust fan be installed? If enough good people asked it, the owner would likely install one. Or, I don't know, get a new job? But no, he wants the government involved. Makes me sick.

But I will make you a deal. Since you are getting rid of smoking and non-smoking sections - can we now have children and non-children sections? I would consider this a fair trade. Especially on airplanes.