can they not pay my overtime? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

1337haxor · 10-07-2004, 03:35 PM

Hey,

I started my new job last week. The job is a temporary job since my school does a co-op program. Companies in the area hire students for 6 months to get experience. So it's like an internship where I get paid a regular salary.
When I got the job, the paperwork I signed stated that I am a temporary employee. The letter that told me that I got the job said:

"Your hourly rate will be $##.##. Co-op positions are paid on a delayed basis. As discussed, this assignment will start %%%% and end %%%%. You will be scheduled to work a maximum of 40 hours per week (7:30 AM - 5:30 PM)."

The packet sent to me also gave me instructions on how to fill out my time cards online and stuff. I have to put in the time I got in, when I started my lunch break, when I got back, and when I left. Simple enought right?

Well since I am still in my "training" phase they tell me, I work from 7:30 to 4:30 everyday. They told me that eventually they will move me to a 7:30 to 5:30 for Monday to Thursday schedule.

I am the kind of person that always arrives early for everything since anything can happen and it's better early then late. I also take very short lunch breaks. It only takes me maybe 10 minutes or so to eat and just 5 minutes of just sitting or going to the bathroom. I find sitting around doing nothing absolutely boring and I'd rather be working. At the end of the day, if I'm engaged in something I will stay to finish it to a satisfactory level. I will never get up and leave during a task.

I have to submit my time card (online) at the end of every week. So I submitted mine last week and due to my short breaks and early arrives, my total hours worked equaled about 45 hours. I have also been doing the same thing this week so if I keep it up I'll probably get the same this week.

Today my supervisor called me to his office. He was talking to his manager and the manager wanted to talk to me (over the phone in my supervisor's office). He just started out asking about how I liked it so far and how he will come down eventually to meet me. Then he started asking if I ever received some kind of orientation and I said no. He then proceeded to ask me if I ever received instructions on how to fill out my time card. I first thought that maybe they didn't get the time card, but it clicked that last week I worked for over 40 hours. I told him that I received a packet from the HR dept and it had instructions for me to fill out the time card and it's what I've been doing. My supervisor and the manager were both like "okay thats it".

I have a feeling that they are trying to do something about the extra hours I've worked. Now the thing is no one ever tells me to leave when it's 4:30. Another co-op student that works in another department is told to leave at 4:30 and they tell him to take this full hour break for lunch. No one ever told me to take an hour break or to leave. Can they not pay my overtime? Would or should they say something to me if they won't pay? I thought it was illegal to not pay overtime, is that true?

I would appreciate any responses

-Robert

PS: this is a large corporation and there are many levels of management. from what co-workers have told me, this company is a very back stabbing environment between departments and management.

Suave · 10-07-2004, 04:10 PM

I'd say the basic principle here is that companies don't like paying overtime. If you're working in a manner that gives you overtime, they'll probably try to regulate it so you're <40 hours a week.

gar1976 · 10-07-2004, 06:08 PM

If you want a nice reference, you'll keep your mouth shut and eat the five hours.

If, however, you don't need the reference go for it.

BonesCPA · 10-07-2004, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gar1976

If you want a nice reference, you'll keep your mouth shut and eat the five hours.

If, however, you don't need the reference go for it.

He has a very valid point. The issue of the money may not be the issue.

As far as the actual legality, the general rule in the US has been that if the hours are worked, unless you are an "exempt" salaried employee, the overtime must be paid. "Exempt" generally is for "white collar" employees and generally would suggest a college diploma has been earned.

Recent legislation by the US government has forced some states to update their overtime rules, while some have even stricter rules in place. I haven't gotten to in depth on the new rules because the states I interact with generally are stricter than the US rules. (NJ specifically says that if an employee doesn't have a college diploma, you must pay them overtime over 40 hours, regardless of their position.)

Bottom line: yes, you are most likely due the overtime. Yes, you will most likely be paid the OT. If you have any concerns about making waves, ask the boss and tell him you just want to do a good job, but not at the cost of throwing him off budget. Ask for his advice, he will give it to you.

gar1976 · 10-07-2004, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonesCPA

He has a very valid point. The issue of the money may not be the issue.

As far as the actual legality, the general rule in the US has been that if the hours are worked, unless you are an "exempt" salaried employee, the overtime must be paid. "Exempt" generally is for "white collar" employees and generally would suggest a college diploma has been earned.

Recent legislation by the US government has forced some states to update their overtime rules, while some have even stricter rules in place. I haven't gotten to in depth on the new rules because the states I interact with generally are stricter than the US rules. (NJ specifically says that if an employee doesn't have a college diploma, you must pay them overtime over 40 hours, regardless of their position.)

Bottom line: yes, you are most likely due the overtime. Yes, you will most likely be paid the OT. If you have any concerns about making waves, ask the boss and tell him you just want to do a good job, but not at the cost of throwing him off budget. Ask for his advice, he will give it to you.

Yeah, the college kid is learning the hard facts of life in this one.

Lesson one - you will get screwed over at work, one time or another.

TM875 · 10-08-2004, 10:44 AM

The issue here is that, first off, you're breaking company code.

When I worked for a bakery inside a large supermarket chain, we were required to take 30minute lunches for every 6 hours worked. That is, if I worked from 9 to 3:30, then it is assumed that 30 minutes of that 6 1/2 hour shift was for lunch. Regardless of whether or not I punched out, the half hour was taken out automatically.

Likewise, in college, I worked for the yearbook as an editor. I was sheduled a set number of hours per week - but they never required me to clock in or out. That means that, regardless of how many or few hours I actually worked, I was paid the same amount. That was their policy.

With the co-op thing, it almost walks the line between my two senarios. Yes, it's a "real" job - but it's run by the school. They said that they will pay you for 40 hours per week. You should not, and I can't stress this enough, work more than that. They can, actually, terminate you for working over your 40 hours.

Don't do overtime, and bring a book for lunch.

Glory's Sun · 10-08-2004, 10:51 AM

also depends on if they are already taking out money for the 1/2 hour or hour lunches then they are not required to pay you that money unless they specifically ask for you to stay. If you come into work early they usually think of that as good work but aren't required to pay for it if you are on a salary. Every company is different but since you are new to the game and if you enjoy your job I'd suggest not worrying about the 5 hours. I put in countless extra hours in the business I'm in and I don't get the monetary reward ...yet One day it will all work out and I'll get the credit and money that is due to me. Be patient..that's all I can tell ya

cocounselor23 · 10-08-2004, 10:54 AM

I agree with most of the above. You are not what would be considered an "exempt" employee in any state and are due the overtime. However, it may very well be that you are not taking the right breaks. I used to work in management before becoming an attorney and we insisted that our employees take the requisite breaks each day. Sometimes you think you are showing what a hard worker you are by avoiding the breaks, but management usually gets ticked. It's a rough life. One option is to just continue to work there and not say anything about the OT and when you quit, you can file for the OT and probably penalties...of course, like the others have said, you take your chances on the job reference...even though the employer is restricted in what they can say about your employment history, there are ways around it. Good luck!

st33lr4t · 10-08-2004, 12:32 PM

so let me get this straight...they tell you when they want you to start, so you decide to start earlier and expect to get paid? as for your lunch break...well if they are not paying you then do whatever you want...if that consists of you going back to work early then do it...just dont expect to get paid. dont look at it as lunch or break or whatever...just look at it as time they are not paying you...therefore do what you like...if that consists of eatting then eat.

is this your first job? i get that impression by what you said here "Now the thing is no one ever tells me to leave when it's 4:30." ...well you dont have to leave if you dont want to...shit you can stay and work if you want...again dont expect to get paid.

honestly they have outlined your hours as 7:30-4:30 daily until further notice...seems pretty straight forward to me. the only gray area to me is your paid/unpaid lunch time.

sushiboy · 10-08-2004, 06:31 PM

I am a small business owner, and yes I am penny pincher. I don't pay overtime, although by law, I should be. If an employee asks me for overtime, i say no. And if they don't like it, I can find someone who will.

It is unfair, but thats life.

CoachAlan · 10-09-2004, 12:20 AM

I see that you're in Pennsylvania. Having been through my own labor disputes, I know that all the advice in the world is not nearly as useful as refence to the actual laws. So here they are. Feel free to peruse this article and make up your own mind on whether or not you are entitled to overtime.

thingstodo · 10-09-2004, 06:56 AM

I'm the general manager of a decent size division of a large company. I only state that to give myself a little credibility. I also worked my way up from the bottom of the field I am in, so I've been where you are. (more credibility?)

Point one: most companies aren't out to screw their employees. The 20% that do make up 80% of the perception. I can't afford to piss off employees and then go through the expense of recruiting, hiring and training. Plus, you lose the knowledge gained from experience, which comes from making mistakes. And that's why you don't fire for mistakes, only continued poor judgement or a willingness/ability issue.

Now for the overtime issue: It sounds like you wer given a schedule to arrive, leave and how long your breaks should be. If you choose to clock in early, stay late, take short breaks or lunch periods you aren't following instructions. And if you have to be told when it is time to leave, I would have to question if you can tell time. Sorry, didn't mean to be a smartass, but....

I think the only problem from your company's perspective is that they didn't make sure you understood what was expected by 1. clarifying with you and testing for understanding; 2. observing and correcting/coaching when you didn't meet expectations. At the point you demonstrate the skill to do what is expected, the company can hold you accountable.

I suspect the manager on the phone will have a coaching session with your boss on how they came up short on your training.

As for OT, it costs more, and managers have a responsibility to manage expenses. Temp situations call for some planned (notice planned, not at the discretion of the employee) OT. If the job takes more than a little, it would make sense to hire another employee at a normal rate of compensation. These days OT is watched even more. A manager that runs up excessive OT, especially unplanned, isn't doing their job of managing the process and the expenses. If you think payroll expenses aren't critical, just look at the airline industry. Take out the recent fuel woes and payrole makes up most of the reasons the US Airs of the world are on the brink of bankruptcy and the low cost airlines (like Southwest, who, by the way, doesn't screw over their employees) are generally profitable.

So, show up for work early and be ready to punch in on time and go to work. Unless pre-arranged, don't stay and clock out late. Take your breaks and lunch.... they are there because you need them to replenish your body and clear your head, just as are vacations. Burned out employees don't generally perform as well. If you are bored, bring a book. And most of all, be clear on your boss' expectations because in the end, you will lose if you don't.

Hope this sheds some light on your question. It's all a learning process - if you learn from the process.

ibis · 10-10-2004, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gar1976

If you want a nice reference, you'll keep your mouth shut and eat the five hours.

If, however, you don't need the reference go for it.

That's pretty much the best advice you'll get. You can also replace "reference" with "job".

iccky · 10-11-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sushiboy

I am a small business owner, and yes I am penny pincher. I don't pay overtime, although by law, I should be. If an employee asks me for overtime, i say no. And if they don't like it, I can find someone who will.

It is unfair, but thats life.

/rant

It's more then unfair, its illegal.

Overtime laws were put in place not so much to give employees mroe money, but to keep employers from forcing employees to work 60 and 80 hour work weeks. Back in the wonderful times of the Industrial Revolution, a 12 hour work day was standard, 6 days a week. The point to create a relativly civilized society where people don't have to work every waking hour to earn enough to eat. Because, as the poster above notes, if the laws of the market are allowed to run unfettered, the little guys will keep under bidding eachother until they all live in a pig sty.

/end rant

That said, I'll repeat what has been said before. Your employer hired you to work 40 hours a week, hes not obliged to pay you if you choose to work more then that. I think they're being really nice, if I were them I'd flat out tell you not to work more then 40 a week or leave. It would be a totally different story if you were being forced to work more then 40 a week and then not paid.

kutulu · 10-13-2004, 09:30 AM

well it's only illegal if they put in the time and he doesn't pay them. He doesn't have to work them overtime.

Averett · 10-13-2004, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st33lr4t

so let me get this straight...they tell you when they want you to start, so you decide to start earlier and expect to get paid? as for your lunch break...well if they are not paying you then do whatever you want...if that consists of you going back to work early then do it...just dont expect to get paid. dont look at it as lunch or break or whatever...just look at it as time they are not paying you...therefore do what you like...if that consists of eatting then eat.

is this your first job? i get that impression by what you said here "Now the thing is no one ever tells me to leave when it's 4:30." ...well you dont have to leave if you dont want to...shit you can stay and work if you want...again dont expect to get paid.

honestly they have outlined your hours as 7:30-4:30 daily until further notice...seems pretty straight forward to me. the only gray area to me is your paid/unpaid lunch time.

Yup. Your hours are from 7:30-4:30. So why are you coming in early and staying late? And is somebody supposed to hold your hand and tell you when to take breaks and leave for the day? Nope.

My hours here are 8:15-5:00. I get in somewhere between 8:00-8:15 and leave at 5:00. I don't get here early, and I don't stay late. If asked, I will stay later. And I will get overtime.

Seems to me you're trying to screw your employers into getting more pay. That's the only thing that isn't fair about this situation.

anonymity_sucks · 10-26-2004, 11:39 PM

There are lots of jobs out there where overtime is not allowed...usually they involve some sort of comp time. But I think while you won't have to eat the 5 hours, don't do this again (like many have been saying). I've worked for a couple of jobs where people were fired over un-asked for overtime when they didn't get the clue that it wasn't needed, expected, or wanted.

10-07-2004, 03:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
1337haxor Insane Location: PA	can they not pay my overtime? Hey, I started my new job last week. The job is a temporary job since my school does a co-op program. Companies in the area hire students for 6 months to get experience. So it's like an internship where I get paid a regular salary. When I got the job, the paperwork I signed stated that I am a temporary employee. The letter that told me that I got the job said: "Your hourly rate will be $##.##. Co-op positions are paid on a delayed basis. As discussed, this assignment will start %%%% and end %%%%. You will be scheduled to work a maximum of 40 hours per week (7:30 AM - 5:30 PM)." The packet sent to me also gave me instructions on how to fill out my time cards online and stuff. I have to put in the time I got in, when I started my lunch break, when I got back, and when I left. Simple enought right? Well since I am still in my "training" phase they tell me, I work from 7:30 to 4:30 everyday. They told me that eventually they will move me to a 7:30 to 5:30 for Monday to Thursday schedule. I am the kind of person that always arrives early for everything since anything can happen and it's better early then late. I also take very short lunch breaks. It only takes me maybe 10 minutes or so to eat and just 5 minutes of just sitting or going to the bathroom. I find sitting around doing nothing absolutely boring and I'd rather be working. At the end of the day, if I'm engaged in something I will stay to finish it to a satisfactory level. I will never get up and leave during a task. I have to submit my time card (online) at the end of every week. So I submitted mine last week and due to my short breaks and early arrives, my total hours worked equaled about 45 hours. I have also been doing the same thing this week so if I keep it up I'll probably get the same this week. Today my supervisor called me to his office. He was talking to his manager and the manager wanted to talk to me (over the phone in my supervisor's office). He just started out asking about how I liked it so far and how he will come down eventually to meet me. Then he started asking if I ever received some kind of orientation and I said no. He then proceeded to ask me if I ever received instructions on how to fill out my time card. I first thought that maybe they didn't get the time card, but it clicked that last week I worked for over 40 hours. I told him that I received a packet from the HR dept and it had instructions for me to fill out the time card and it's what I've been doing. My supervisor and the manager were both like "okay thats it". I have a feeling that they are trying to do something about the extra hours I've worked. Now the thing is no one ever tells me to leave when it's 4:30. Another co-op student that works in another department is told to leave at 4:30 and they tell him to take this full hour break for lunch. No one ever told me to take an hour break or to leave. Can they not pay my overtime? Would or should they say something to me if they won't pay? I thought it was illegal to not pay overtime, is that true? I would appreciate any responses -Robert PS: this is a large corporation and there are many levels of management. from what co-workers have told me, this company is a very back stabbing environment between departments and management.

10-07-2004, 06:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
gar1976 Custom User Title Location: Lurking. Under the desk.	If you want a nice reference, you'll keep your mouth shut and eat the five hours. If, however, you don't need the reference go for it. __________________ Blistex, in regards to crappy games - They made pong look like a story driven RPG with a dynamic campaign.

10-08-2004, 10:44 AM	#6 (permalink)
TM875 Addict Location: Amish-land, PA	The issue here is that, first off, you're breaking company code. When I worked for a bakery inside a large supermarket chain, we were required to take 30minute lunches for every 6 hours worked. That is, if I worked from 9 to 3:30, then it is assumed that 30 minutes of that 6 1/2 hour shift was for lunch. Regardless of whether or not I punched out, the half hour was taken out automatically. Likewise, in college, I worked for the yearbook as an editor. I was sheduled a set number of hours per week - but they never required me to clock in or out. That means that, regardless of how many or few hours I actually worked, I was paid the same amount. That was their policy. With the co-op thing, it almost walks the line between my two senarios. Yes, it's a "real" job - but it's run by the school. They said that they will pay you for 40 hours per week. You should not, and I can't stress this enough, work more than that. They can, actually, terminate you for working over your 40 hours. Don't do overtime, and bring a book for lunch. __________________ "I've made only one mistake in my life. But I made it over and over and over. That was saying 'yes' when I meant 'no'. Forgive me."

10-08-2004, 06:31 PM	#10 (permalink)
sushiboy Tilted Location: In Obama's neighborhood	I am a small business owner, and yes I am penny pincher. I don't pay overtime, although by law, I should be. If an employee asks me for overtime, i say no. And if they don't like it, I can find someone who will. It is unfair, but thats life. __________________ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GO d++ s--:+ a- C+ U--- P-- L- E-- W++ N- o-- K- w O- M+ PS PE++ PGP- t- 5-- X R- tv+ b- DI+ D+ G e* h---- r+++ y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

10-09-2004, 12:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
CoachAlan Psycho Location: Las Vegas	I see that you're in Pennsylvania. Having been through my own labor disputes, I know that all the advice in the world is not nearly as useful as refence to the actual laws. So here they are. Feel free to peruse this article and make up your own mind on whether or not you are entitled to overtime. __________________ "If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!" - Mark Twain

10-07-2004, 04:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I'd say the basic principle here is that companies don't like paying overtime. If you're working in a manner that gives you overtime, they'll probably try to regulate it so you're <40 hours a week.

10-08-2004, 10:51 AM	#7 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	also depends on if they are already taking out money for the 1/2 hour or hour lunches then they are not required to pay you that money unless they specifically ask for you to stay. If you come into work early they usually think of that as good work but aren't required to pay for it if you are on a salary. Every company is different but since you are new to the game and if you enjoy your job I'd suggest not worrying about the 5 hours. I put in countless extra hours in the business I'm in and I don't get the monetary reward ...yet One day it will all work out and I'll get the credit and money that is due to me. Be patient..that's all I can tell ya

10-08-2004, 10:54 AM	#8 (permalink)
cocounselor23 Upright	I agree with most of the above. You are not what would be considered an "exempt" employee in any state and are due the overtime. However, it may very well be that you are not taking the right breaks. I used to work in management before becoming an attorney and we insisted that our employees take the requisite breaks each day. Sometimes you think you are showing what a hard worker you are by avoiding the breaks, but management usually gets ticked. It's a rough life. One option is to just continue to work there and not say anything about the OT and when you quit, you can file for the OT and probably penalties...of course, like the others have said, you take your chances on the job reference...even though the employer is restricted in what they can say about your employment history, there are ways around it. Good luck!

10-08-2004, 12:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
st33lr4t Psycho Location: Dallas, Tx	so let me get this straight...they tell you when they want you to start, so you decide to start earlier and expect to get paid? as for your lunch break...well if they are not paying you then do whatever you want...if that consists of you going back to work early then do it...just dont expect to get paid. dont look at it as lunch or break or whatever...just look at it as time they are not paying you...therefore do what you like...if that consists of eatting then eat. is this your first job? i get that impression by what you said here "Now the thing is no one ever tells me to leave when it's 4:30." ...well you dont have to leave if you dont want to...shit you can stay and work if you want...again dont expect to get paid. honestly they have outlined your hours as 7:30-4:30 daily until further notice...seems pretty straight forward to me. the only gray area to me is your paid/unpaid lunch time.

10-09-2004, 06:56 AM	#12 (permalink)
thingstodo A Storm Is Coming Location: The Great White North	I'm the general manager of a decent size division of a large company. I only state that to give myself a little credibility. I also worked my way up from the bottom of the field I am in, so I've been where you are. (more credibility?) Point one: most companies aren't out to screw their employees. The 20% that do make up 80% of the perception. I can't afford to piss off employees and then go through the expense of recruiting, hiring and training. Plus, you lose the knowledge gained from experience, which comes from making mistakes. And that's why you don't fire for mistakes, only continued poor judgement or a willingness/ability issue. Now for the overtime issue: It sounds like you wer given a schedule to arrive, leave and how long your breaks should be. If you choose to clock in early, stay late, take short breaks or lunch periods you aren't following instructions. And if you have to be told when it is time to leave, I would have to question if you can tell time. Sorry, didn't mean to be a smartass, but.... I think the only problem from your company's perspective is that they didn't make sure you understood what was expected by 1. clarifying with you and testing for understanding; 2. observing and correcting/coaching when you didn't meet expectations. At the point you demonstrate the skill to do what is expected, the company can hold you accountable. I suspect the manager on the phone will have a coaching session with your boss on how they came up short on your training. As for OT, it costs more, and managers have a responsibility to manage expenses. Temp situations call for some planned (notice planned, not at the discretion of the employee) OT. If the job takes more than a little, it would make sense to hire another employee at a normal rate of compensation. These days OT is watched even more. A manager that runs up excessive OT, especially unplanned, isn't doing their job of managing the process and the expenses. If you think payroll expenses aren't critical, just look at the airline industry. Take out the recent fuel woes and payrole makes up most of the reasons the US Airs of the world are on the brink of bankruptcy and the low cost airlines (like Southwest, who, by the way, doesn't screw over their employees) are generally profitable. So, show up for work early and be ready to punch in on time and go to work. Unless pre-arranged, don't stay and clock out late. Take your breaks and lunch.... they are there because you need them to replenish your body and clear your head, just as are vacations. Burned out employees don't generally perform as well. If you are bored, bring a book. And most of all, be clear on your boss' expectations because in the end, you will lose if you don't. Hope this sheds some light on your question. It's all a learning process - if you learn from the process. __________________ If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy. Last edited by thingstodo; 10-09-2004 at 07:03 AM..

10-13-2004, 09:30 AM	#15 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	well it's only illegal if they put in the time and he doesn't pay them. He doesn't have to work them overtime.

10-26-2004, 11:39 PM	#17 (permalink)
anonymity_sucks Upright Location: Knoxville Tn	There are lots of jobs out there where overtime is not allowed...usually they involve some sort of comp time. But I think while you won't have to eat the 5 hours, don't do this again (like many have been saying). I've worked for a couple of jobs where people were fired over un-asked for overtime when they didn't get the clue that it wasn't needed, expected, or wanted.