Most teen workers... - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tidus · 11-26-2004, 07:15 PM

Well, I am a teen and I work hard cause I want a better future..im dont play x-box, but a bit of ps2 on weekends.

cybersharp · 11-28-2004, 10:00 PM

That is so ironic.....for me it was the oposite! I wanted work...but played x-box and games all the time...because i didnt have work! I was mental capable as well as physicaly and I couldnt find any jobs that I thought I would do well because every one of the jobs that I would have done well would have allready been taken.

Ironic....there just simply isnt enough jobs in my town that i am aware of I suppose..

indigochild111 · 11-28-2004, 10:16 PM

Although I am an 18 year old, I will not disrespect you in the way that some others have. I will have to say that your first post did make me angry, but you recanted somewhat. I will say this however. I have been at my job for over a year now. I never called in sick, I never slacked off. I always gave 150%. And you know what, now I'M THE MANAGER! After a year of working at the restaurant they made me a manager. I worked hard from the beginning, but like it was said earlier, the little rewards motivated me to work even harder. My bosses are incredible. Once they "took notice" of my hard work it really boosted my confidence and made me want to do a good job.

I realize that you were just venting in your first post, but next time try not to generalize so much

ShaniFaye · 11-29-2004, 04:40 AM

hmmm I how many of us encountered a teen working while shopping on (black) Friday and can make a pleasant report about it?

(sorry to you teens that are responsible...but ya'll are NOT the norm from what I see) I thought if I had to deal with one more teenager in Savannah this weekend I was personally going to through them in the Savannah River....I cant believe some of these kids get paid to ignore you and then be rude when you have the audacity to interupt their PERSONAL conversation either with another teen in the store or on the phone.

UGH

joeshoe · 12-05-2004, 07:49 PM

You get what you pay for.

But really, these teens aren't working for a living. They're not working to survive. They don't care if they get fired. So they're not going to put a whole lot of effort into it.
I'm not saying all teens are like this, but some really are.

Bodhi · 12-05-2004, 09:02 PM

I find that peole in theri 20's are just as bad or worse.

charlesesl · 12-05-2004, 10:14 PM

Geez, no wonder it was so hard to find a job when I was a teen.

Grasshopper Green · 12-07-2004, 07:53 PM

I can't really add much to this post, but I'm going to put in my 2 cents anyway. I've been in the workforce for 11 years and have been a hard worker the entire time. My mom taught me to be a good worker...my first job was with her and if I had slacked off I would have been in a lot of trouble. That ethic has stuck with me ever since.

I oversaw (not managed) the cashiers and baggers in a grocery store for about a year. 90% of the employees were 21 or younger. They talked on the phone. They goofed off. They didn't provide even decent customer service. I think that this was caused by several reasons though; low pay, lack of work ethic, and lack of respect for upper management. I rarely had problems with the employees when I was there, because they respected me. I didn't get on them if they didnt need it, I didn't ask them to do anything I wasn't willing to do myself, and I treated them with decency. Other members of management sat on their asses in the office and didn't do a damn thing...that's not exactly inspirational to do some good work.

The other departments paid much better and tended to be staffed by older people who didn't call in sick and made it to work on time; they needed their jobs to keep food on the table. Its impossible to survive on minimum wage or near minimum wage and have a decent standard of living, even if you are single.

I don't know why this sliding trend is happening, but I have been there, I know it's frustrating.

yellowchef · 12-07-2004, 10:14 PM

Its a lot on poor parenting, media projection of how teens should behave and the fact that many people just tolerate the way teens behave. I have noticed there is little to no disciplinary actions for a teen vs an older person. I know not to slack off ever, it wont get me anywhere(except in the case of my old job where everyone was fucking everyone) and I always hear my parents in the back of my head saying things about how most people appreciate hard work and a well behaved person.

If you look at the way the media portrays teens today theyre all half assed rich kids who dont have to work, barely go to school and the parents pay for EVERYTHING.

Sometimes it cant be helped, but for 95% of kids it can be helped.

cyrnel · 12-08-2004, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowchef

Its a lot on poor parenting, media projection of how teens should behave and the fact that many people just tolerate the way teens behave. ...
If you look at the way the media portrays teens today theyre all half assed rich kids who dont have to work, barely go to school and the parents pay for EVERYTHING.

Agreed.

It has occurred to me that marketers gain quite a lot by making parents out to be aliens with money. Parents and other authority figures are the enemy because they say "no." No to things that have an immediate "fun" payback, even if they might be out of budget, wasteful, addictive, etc. Don't demonize the parents or the money supply might dry up. What's cool is "I'm pissed about it but I'll come home at night." Maintains the money flow while ignoring all stodgy input possibly borne of experience. This relationship supports addictions to consumerism and appearance among the least experienced in society while diluting other messages. I'm talking out my butt here but I suspect this contributes to a diminished work-ethic, and ironically, a reduction in earning potential for subsequent generations.

Does this self-correct in one or two generations or is ours the first to turn marketing into a science and culture? Any recommendations for good reading on this kind of long-game manipulation?

/end hijack

Techno · 12-10-2004, 11:14 AM

I'm going to stand up for the slackers here. 22 year old student from the UK here, to put my opinion into perspective for you.

Ok, so you can take 40+ hours of my week in return for a wage. This part I'm cool with. Sort of. You should be paying me for travel time, really. You're taking away my time, therefore I should see compensation.

Ok, so I'll do the work you ask. It's dull, it's a waste of time but you're paying me, so it's cool. Let's face it, all work outside the public sector* is pointless and is just working to satisfy some fuck's greed.

However, I will not care about your job. I will not leap to attention everytime a customer walks in, because they're just another fucking customer. If they need help, they'll ask. If they want something, they'll buy it. They do not need me hovering over them, suggesting shit to them. If I don't feel in the mood for the ratrace today, I will ring in sick. If I feel that today is a day that would be better spent playing games, I'll ring in sick. If I have an arguement with my girlfriend and need time to sort that out, I'll ring in sick.

You know why? Because the mental wellbeing and satisfaction of the individual, comes far above your dirty little desire to have money. And the fact that society espouses the opposite view, is insane.

You hit a nerve today, dude. I just got fired for taking personal time off.

On this tasty little tangent

Quote:

No to things that have an immediate "fun" payback, even if they might be out of budget, wasteful, addictive, etc.

Here's a little point for you, maybe if you gave these kids something worthwhile to do, they'd have a work ethic. Instead of working to make some distant boss richer, how about giving them the chance to effect positive change within our world?

* I may or may not be using the phrase correctly. I'm talking about stuff the society actually needs. Like peeps to process taxes, benefits and such, doctors, cops etc.

ShaniFaye · 12-10-2004, 11:50 AM

I really hope with that attitude you're not surprised you got fired. When you accept the responsibility of working you are accepting all the things that go with it. Did you ever once consider the reprecussions of calling in sick just because you didnt "feel" like going in (besides being fired I mean)? Did you ever once consider who else you might be inconveniencing because they had to take over for you?

cyrnel · 12-10-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techno

On this tasty little tangent

Quote cyrnel:
No to things that have an immediate "fun" payback, even if they might be out of budget, wasteful, addictive, etc.
Endquote

Here's a little point for you, maybe if you gave these kids something worthwhile to do, they'd have a work ethic. Instead of working to make some distant boss richer, how about giving them the chance to effect positive change within our world?

* I may or may not be using the phrase correctly. I'm talking about stuff the society actually needs. Like peeps to process taxes, benefits and such, doctors, cops etc.

It sucks, but a large part of growing up is learning when you just gotta do something. Might not be what you'd choose on an awesome day, might even be painful, but it needs to be done. Most jobs, even the best, are like that at one point or another. With many jobs not in your "dream" category it'll be most of the time. Figuring out how to smile & know you're working for the big picture makes it worth while, and it gets easier with time. Even a few victories (kudos, raises, fixing stupid problems, helping the helpless) will make you better at finding good moments. They build on themselves.

If you just got booted I know the ears probably aren't completely open, but believe me, it'll work eventually. Just try thinking long term. Also, and you might hate this right now, being fired or laid off is an excellent time to make a move upward. The opposite of sitting on your butt in a comfortable position. (been there) Treat it like a bent favor. Figure out which parts of the job you could tolerate, maybe even enjoy, and beat the pavement. I'm no *&#^#(*& Tony Robbins but I have found attitude is critical. Sometimes you just have to work at it in reverse.

Techno · 12-11-2004, 05:27 AM

Alright, so my initial post was a vent of sorts. Most of the content is still valid, but could have been phrased less angrily.

Quick caveat: I've only been working for around 5 years. I've had around five jobs, four of which I left after a month or so (or got fired from

) and 1 I held for 3 years. So I understand that I've not seen the whole damn thing yet. I am considering ways of not making the Man richer, but they require cash and such beforehand. All I want is a job that isn't too offensive for a while, and doesn't have motherfuckers who think they own you because you work for them.

Quote:

I really hope with that attitude you're not surprised you got fired.

I'm never suprised by it. I always make sure the mofo's get preached at first. Hopefully I can spread some enlightenment.

Quote:

Did you ever once consider the reprecussions of calling in sick just because you didnt "feel" like going in (besides being fired I mean)?

Sure I have. When I was working as a security guard, it meant all those shiny cars in the car park weren't being watched every 15 minutes. When I was an office manager, it meant noone was there to watch the wage-slaves mouth ritualised sales bullshit down the phone to strangers. In fairness, most of my limited work experience hasn't required 10% of a human consciouness. It's a waste of 40 hours of human life (the only thing worth a damn on the planet). Get a fucking voice recording to make sales ("This is a sales message offering you BLAH, that does x, y and z. Do you want it?", and a camera with a gun to watch your car (a little far off, yet, but you appreciate the notion). In my experience, with most worthless private sector jobs, the only people you inconvience is a customer. A bit. I appreciate that if every cat felt as I did, the system would break down, and this may be scary to some, I on the other hand, have no problem with destroying consumerism*

Quote:

Figuring out how to smile & know you're working for the big picture makes it worth while, and it gets easier with time.

It's a nice thought but, I utterly disagree that the big picture we're working for makes it worthwhile. I see the big picture as us all working to make a tiny portion of the population richer. This is just wrong to me. I believe what you refer to as "gets easier with time", I call "compromising your beliefs". I'm not a zealot and I am perfectly to listen and compromise. Except when I'm right. This way doesn't work, really. Because the Man always wants more.

Quote:

If you just got booted I know the ears probably aren't completely open, but believe me, it'll work eventually. *SNIP*... Some good and friendly advice...*SNIP* Sometimes you just have to work at it in reverse.

I appreciate your comments, dude. I can see what you're saying, but I believe that the moments of being a worthy person are fair outweighed by the harm of allowing the rich to get richer. My dad's a freelance programmer, working for vodaphone. Now part of his work is developing our communication networks, improving and stabilising them, which to my mind is a Good Thing. However, the reason the Man is paying him to do his job, is to bring in customers to make the Man more money. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still fucked up, dude.

* Some days I do, others I don't. I appreciate that my way of life would be radically changed, and in some ways harmed. But it is my belief that something better will come from it.

ShaniFaye · 12-11-2004, 05:48 AM

It all about accountability.....obviously some people understand what it means and some people dont.

Its the people that dont that my tax dollars (here in the US) pay for when they go on welfare cause they dont "feel" like working. Dont get me wrong....government assistance has its place....I know there are situations where it IS needed, and I pray Im never in that situation....but anyone that has been anywhere near an unemployment office, or behind someone in the grocery store using WIC stamps knows exactly what I mean about the "unaccountable" ones.....had those same people been taught a work ethic and didnt believe that their job "owed" them the tax dollars could be better spent on those that are REALLY in need of help.

It really infuriates me that someone thinks their job needs to be more understanding because they want to stay home and "play games" thats what earned vacation days are for.

Techno · 12-11-2004, 08:48 AM

Quote:

It all about accountability.....obviously some people understand what it means and some people dont.

You'd say I don't understand accountability.

Quote:

accountability

n : responsibility to someone or for some activity [syn: answerability, answerableness]

I disagree: I believe by working according to this system's ethic I can be held accountable for supporting this system. "All evil requires is that good men do nothing" and all.

Quote:

Its the people that dont that my tax dollars (here in the US) pay for when they go on welfare cause they dont "feel" like working.

I've been on the dole (UK unemployment benefits) and hated it. Not because I was living off the charity of the government, cause I felt I was getting all that money I was taxed on my fags back. I hated it because they never gave enough to exist. Seriously, you try living off £55* a week. Just because you are unable to find work doesn't mean you should starve (yup, couldn't afford to buy decent food), or be cold (yup, couldn't afford to have the heating on), or have a shitty time. It forces those on the dole, who have genuine difficulty finding work**, into a situation were they have even less chance of finding work. In my case, I didn't have the cash to get some decent threads for an interview, which really helps with getting a job.

But I'm not the people you're talking about. I didn't go on benefits 'cause I felt like it. You can see my sorry story below.

Quote:

It really infuriates me that someone thinks their job needs to be more understanding because they want to stay home and "play games" thats what earned vacation days are for.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you have to work forty-odd weeks to get four off? Would you say that four weeks of free time was worth the forty-odd weeks working?Doesn't it seem weird that our society is geared to making sure people spend the majority of their lives making the rich richer? I'm of a very different mindset to you, my belief is that humanity's purpose is to have a good time. We are here to party. If there are people who's environment prevents them from partying, it should be changed. That is the work I am prepared to do.

As a reference, care to put your age in a bracket? Nothing too specific, just the decade you were born in. Where's Ga, btw?

* About $105.

** Personal experience. I lost a job because of a whacky rape allegation. Their fucking reason for firing me: "You're a temp, and you'll need time off for court. Time we're not prepared to give you. Bye." So, I lose my job because of this, a massive blow to the confidence. Then the dole office can't understand why I don't really feel motivated into getting a job. Bear in mind that most job applications ask about criminal convictions, so an honest mofo like myself is going to ask whether being arrested and waiting for the damn thing to come down needs to be noted. Imagine how many jobs that lost me, before I had to compromise and lie. You can understand when my liberty is threatened, my social life destroyed and my honour besmirched, I'm not going to consider cleaning toilets. Life's bad enough, you know?

ShaniFaye · 12-11-2004, 01:22 PM

As is apparent in my profile, Im 36

Where is Georgia? Its in the US in the South.

Your post said that you were fired for taking personal time off after you went into great detail as to how you decide if you wanted to go into work or not, so how do you expect anyone to have have a different view.

I used to think life was about nothing but partying and having fun....and damn, just like you I couldnt keep a job either, (until I was about 20)....then I learned about accountability, not only to myself but society as well, in other words I grew up.

Techno · 12-12-2004, 05:26 AM

Dammit, I always forget about profiles. Thanks for the info, it does but things in perspective.

Quote:

Your post said that you were fired for taking personal time off after you went into great detail as to how you decide if you wanted to go into work or not, so how do you expect anyone to have have a different view.

I may have given the wrong impression with that little diatribe. I don't wake up on a monday and go "Is today a good day for games? No, let's go to work" in a process-of-elimination-style-affair. I wake up, and 75% of the time I waste my day at the job. It's just that the 25% I take off shouldn't come with the "HOW DARE YOU NOT COME TO WORK, WRETCH" attitude that's so prevalent in business. I take issue with the notion I should feel guilty for this. You'd think they'd realise the job was terminally unrewarding and that an intelligent chap like myself has better things to be doing.

Quote:

I used to think life was about nothing but partying and having fun....and damn, just like you I couldnt keep a job either*, (until I was about 20)....then I learned about accountability, not only to myself but society as well, in other words I grew up.

Ai'ight. So we've reached this point of the topic.
You really don't mean "grow up". What're you're actually saying is: "grow to accept". I'm looking for a way to stay in this society, whilst being the person I am. The advice about "growing to accept" may even get used one day

But it's not my ideal state.

So I've got my PoV, you've got yours and never the two shall agree. Ho hum.
Nice talking with you, anyway. I'll stop ranting now.

* I can keep a job though. Held a damn good office job for 3 years (I was office manager no less), but had to leave due to educational commitments. I can pretend to be a wage-slave.

cyrnel · 12-12-2004, 08:24 AM

Techno, is integrity a part of your ideal state? How do you reconcile accepting jobs where people or companies compensate you for performance when it sounds like you have no intention of performing?

Commitment is a pretty basic piece of human interaction. Whether warming a cubicle or building homeless shelters, if you aren't holding up your end of bargains - being true to your word - you should expect to be looked upon as unreliable, inconsiderate, irresponsible, etc. If you defend that as a reasonable course, it's very difficult to take you seriously.

At some point you've got to come to terms with the fact that society is a bargain. Compromises for the common good. Find your balance point and use the inevitable crap as opportunities for growth. The alternative is antisocial standards and life at the fringe. Works for the occasional guru if that's your thing.

Xenomorph · 12-12-2004, 08:38 PM

If you really detest the idea of wages, start your own business. Owning a business and massaging the stock market are just about the only two ways to make your own living in this world if you don't want to get paid by a business owner, a welfare officer, or your parents. It doesn't have to be anything elaborate. People pay for legal service but they pay for lawn care too. The lady that cleans my parents' house brings in a couple thousand dollars a month just hopping from client to client, and I think she's doing just fine not having seen a paycheck in however many years she's been doing it. She's got way more would-be customers than she can accept, and they're paying top dollar to have her wash their towels.

Of course, she shows up every time she's scheduled to. And she works until the job is done. And she does the job well. And I suspect that there was a tougher time at the beginning of her venture when she didn't have enough customers to clean two houses a weekday, rotating through them every two weeks. These customers were probably unwiling to pay her more than they would anyone else who walked off the street until they saw how hard she worked, too.

She's tried to hire some help and expand her customer base a bit but, wouldn't you know it, it's tough to find people who do a thorough job even when they don't feel like it or realize that the world will go on if they call in "sick". Many of us would probably be more in our "ideal states" if we only went to work 75% of the time, but that probably sounds laughable to the people that busted their butts to start up the businesses that hire the rest of us.

I heartily agree that even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat. Yet, if you think you're too good for your job, you'd better prove it by finding or creating a better one.

Cynthetiq · 12-13-2004, 07:46 AM

Xenomorph...

good statement of starting one's own business...

why is that a good statement? Because these young "slackers" (for lack of a better word..) will fail miserably.

Why? because they don't have the ethic to begin with...

because in the beginning of the business cycle, the most crucial where they have to spend many hours pounding the pavement, making phone calls, looking for solicitations of work... they won't bother.

Techno won't bother to do "above and beyond" for wages, why would he do it for the "promise" of future business or contracts?

ShaniFaye · 12-13-2004, 07:57 AM

continuing from cynthetiq.....they also wont realize they dont come first

1st hubby and I had our own business for 11 years.....we started it in 1990 up until 1997 we were lucky to get one paycheck a month from it....vendors and employees always came before us....we never went out....we lived on sandwiches and his mothers left overs....I shopped at goodwill or made my own clothes (Im not complaining so dont take it that way) work days were 6 days a week minimum of 12 hours per day...in other words we busted our ass for the "american dream" I can honestly say that now that the business is gone and I (and him) are part of the normal rat race....working to make someone else rich...we have more money and time to enjoy it than we ever did.

Techno · 12-13-2004, 11:14 AM

Hola peeps, my isn't this a fun thread?

Quote:

Techno, is integrity a part of your ideal state?

It is, to those I respect. It's a bit wishywashy admittedly, but here's how it works. I don't see the need for integrity when dealing with what I regard as wrong. A prime example would be my debts to various banks. I have fuck all intention of paying it back, ever. They don't need it, they're not suffering because they've not had it back and as they're an organisation founded on the concept of greed, fuck 'em. However, I also owe money to friends, which has been regularly paid off. It's just a question of respect. If you act like a good person, I'll be groovy with you, act like a money-loving-mofo and I'll take the piss.

Quote:

Many of us would probably be more in our "ideal states" if we only went to work 75% of the time, but that probably sounds laughable to the people that busted their butts to start up the businesses that hire the rest of us.

Here's the mad thing. There's more of us than there are them. So why not do exactly that and live in your ideal state? If we all say "No, fuck you" together, we win! As I only work 75% of the time, so should you and so should everyone. We're not getting any happier working these 40 hours a week. So lets make a better way.

Quote:

I heartily agree that even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat. Yet, if you think you're too good for your job, you'd better prove it by finding or creating a better one.

Amen. Signed on with a new recruitment agency today, fucking rodents. Hopefully something not too insulting will come my way.

In fairness, most of my problems with jobs are due to the innate screwiness of capitalism and the type of job*. Maybe with a decent, worthy and inspiring job, I'd be less angry and willing to put in more effort than waking up.

* I've been working in fucking marketing.

Cynthetiq · 12-13-2004, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techno

It is, to those I respect. It's a bit wishywashy admittedly, but here's how it works. I don't see the need for integrity when dealing with what I regard as wrong. A prime example would be my debts to various banks. I have fuck all intention of paying it back, ever. They don't need it, they're not suffering because they've not had it back and as they're an organisation founded on the concept of greed, fuck 'em. However, I also owe money to friends, which has been regularly paid off. It's just a question of respect. If you act like a good person, I'll be groovy with you, act like a money-loving-mofo and I'll take the piss.

I see.

So the only time you are cool with someone is when you want something from them. So the moment you don't want something from someone... fuck them.

As far as the banks are concerned etc, I guess then you've got no concerns about buying a home, financing a business, buying a car, etc.

Again, you are proving more of a reason as to why this thread exists.

Nice.

Blackthorn · 12-13-2004, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukethebandgeek

Honestly, no one is going to work very hard for minimum wage.

A dead end job is a dead end job. That's all there is to it. Should someone run at a wall or mosey toward it whilst looking for another road?

This is the attitude that the original poster is refering to. If you are practicing for something better then practice like you expect to play. This isn't kintergarden. It's called earning a wage for the work and effort that you produce. Just because you are starting at the bottom of the wage earning scale doesn't mean you shouldn't put forth effort and work like you would want someone to work if you were writing their check.

There is no honor or personal integrity in treating your employer to minimal effort for your minimum wage.

godxzilla · 12-13-2004, 12:40 PM

There is nothing worse than this attitude. I hate when I got somewhere and just because the person is in a lower paying job, they treat me like shit. thats just uncalled for. would it KILL you to smile? would it kill you to learn a little about the product you are selling or maybe give 1/2 a crap about yourself and your job? argh...this thread brings up some anger in me

whocarz · 12-13-2004, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishmal

hey man hey,

FUCK YOU!!!

i'm a teen worker and have been in this job since i was 16... all my friends range from 16 to 19 and they all have steady jobs or apprentaships... none of us are slackers... dont you fucken dare try and classify the whole generation into that one word "slack" ... thats like me saying that all you old fucks are out dated and should get into retirment homes because your expectations are different from mine...

finally let me say i hope the Moderators dont ban me for this rant but if they do i'm only a rookie so i will create more accounts just to sledge you because it will be your fault that i get banned...

fuck you doc, fuck you.

Wow, what a well thought out and intelligent post that clearly follows the rules of the TFP and CONTRIBUTES to the respectful tone of discussion here.

Master_Shake · 12-13-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

There is no honor or personal integrity in treating your employer to minimal effort for your minimum wage.

I submit that there is no honour or personal integrity in working for minimum wage. It is a simple exchange; money for services rendered.

The prostitution business is an excellent model of this. When you pay $20.00 for a blow job, you're only getting a $20.00 blow job.

If you want the hooker to jiggle your nuts a little, caress your balls and use her/his tongue in a special way, it's going to cost a little extra. That's not unreasonable or without honour, it's just the nature of the business.

Xenomorph · 12-13-2004, 02:53 PM

You seem to equate the ability to make a load of money with greed, Techno. A friend is a friend but a bank is "The Man". The Marxist image of a fat guy with a top hat sitting on a pile of bags with the dollar sign on them is convenient and easy to deride, but do realize that banks and big corporates and, yes, even government agencies are composed of working people, the majority of which are not on the board of directors of a Fortune 500 company. The bank owner gets his home in the Bahamas and will never have to go to bed worrying about paying the rent or holding his own in the job market, but that's in exchange for the jobs he's provided his employees with. He hires white-collar financial consultants and gives them thousands for every decision they make for him, but he hires people to sweep the floor too.

The fact that some people have managed through whatever combination of luck and brilliance to find themselves on the top of the fiscal heap does not make them evil or out to get you. They would probably like it if you agreed to the terms of the loan you signed up for, though.

The workers of the world are, sadly, not going to unite. I don't mind doing all the work that I agreed to when I accepted employment, and unless I'm sick or unable to transport myself to work, I'll show up. This is capitalism. The worker is protected here in the United States more than he is in Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations", but we're still in a relatively free market economy and labor is a commodity on that market. I don't manufacture a product, so in order to make money I provide a service. It would be bad business practice for an employer to retain me if I called in gaming every four days, just as I consider it unethical for me to do so.

As for honor and integrity, I think the issue is simple. If you call in sick and you are, in fact, not sick, you've lied, dishonored yourself, and compromised your integrity. It is a simple exchange, though, and its usually implied if not overtly stated that the worker is actually going to fulfill his end of it, just as the employer does. The world would go on if I got 75% of my paycheck, but that wouldn't be very sporting of the employer, would it?

Techno · 12-13-2004, 05:34 PM

Quote:

So the only time you are cool with someone is when you want something from them. So the moment you don't want something from someone... fuck them.

Ouch. Fair enough. Not the way I wanted to sound, but on consideration, that's the only way it's going to. It's a flaw, and is a relatively shitty way to act.

Quote:

As far as the banks are concerned etc, I guess then you've got no concerns about buying a home, financing a business, buying a car, etc.

People remind me of this, and it never bothers me. I've never really wanted a car, the home thing I'm sure I can sort out before I'm actually interested in buying a home (a good 8 - 10 years away) and financing a business as you may have gathered, isn't my style.

Quote:

The fact that some people have managed through whatever combination of luck and brilliance to find themselves on the top of the fiscal heap does not make them evil or out to get you.

Fair cop. Was spouting angry "I just got fired" shite. On the other hand, the people I've encountered when just a small amount of money is involved who are (I'm being really, really polite about this) so awfully mercenary leads me to think that the evil capitalist image (sans monocle and top hat) isn't that rare.

Quote:

If you call in sick and you are, in fact, not sick, you've lied, dishonored yourself, and compromised your integrity.

If I could call in and say "I need a day off because I've been too tired to socialise. So I need some socialising, you know, to be a happy and productive worker." then there'd be no lie.

Btw, I'm not off every goddam day! In the first few weeks of a dull job, maybe one or two times (adjusting, you see).

Quote:

Wow, what a well thought out and intelligent post that clearly follows the rules of the TFP and CONTRIBUTES to the respectful tone of discussion here.

Whilst I realise the comment's not aimed at me, am I furthering to the topic of discussion and being respectful in the TFP's opinion? I'm curious and realise my position is one that draws a fair amount of ire. You may call me a twat, if needs be

Carno · 12-13-2004, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Ouch. Fair enough. Not the way I wanted to sound, but on consideration, that's the only way it's going to. It's a flaw, and is a relatively shitty way to act.

What's funny is that you bitch when an employer does this to you, but you think it's okay for you to do. You are irresponsible, lazy and unreliable, so the company gave you the finger. And they were damn right in doing that.

Quote:

If I could call in and say "I need a day off because I've been too tired to socialise. So I need some socialising, you know, to be a happy and productive worker." then there'd be no lie.

Btw, I'm not off every goddam day! In the first few weeks of a dull job, maybe one or two times (adjusting, you see).

What work ethic!

Blackthorn · 12-13-2004, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Shake

I submit that there is no honour or personal integrity in working for minimum wage. It is a simple exchange; money for services rendered.

....

Au contraire Master_Shake. You may not feel there is honor in minimum wage employment but in my opinion you are flatly wrong. There is great honor in accepting work from an employer who is willing to pay you the going market rate for the product or service you provide. There are low skill jobs out there that are worth while forms of employment that happen to pay minimum wage.

Having personal integrity when you are working one of these jobs is to give it your best effort, be courteous to your employer who is signing your paycheck, your customers, and your co-workers. Being a malcontent has no place in any work place regardless of the wage that you EARN. If you want a better lot in life then there's no better place to start learning how to achieve that. Practice during the rest of the week the way that you plan to play on Sunday. Those life skills you learn as a teenager in a minimum wage job will carry you much further than thinking ... well this is just a minimum wage job so who gives a fuck all if I even show up.

If that's your approach to employment now as a job taker vs. a job maker I would have no reason to expect you would behave differently if I paid you $50,000 a year vs. minimum wage. You would still only feel that you deserved more so your effort would still be half hearted. Instead of focusing on learning, improving your skills, developing strong relationships with others in your field, and finding more ways to increase your value you would still be dithering about not being paid what you are worth.

I've seen this unfortunate attitude numerous times. Not evey new college grad is like this but I've seen it many times and it ends in the same sad song way. They leave my company in a blaze of glory about how they showed us...and ya know what. We're much better off without them because those that choose to stay do so with a passion for making the most of their ability and delivering the most value possible to their clients. It's a fantastic formula when it's properly applied. I suggest you try it.

I also could not follow a bit of your logic in the remainder of your post regarding the ilegal acts of a prostitute. Perhaps it was meant to be funny. In either case you missed the mark with that analogy and the spirit of this thread.

EULA · 12-13-2004, 09:34 PM

I think you might find some answers about childish teenagers in this book.

godxzilla · 12-14-2004, 04:02 AM

Id also have to say that its NOT just teen workers. its workers that are in the unfortunate position of working for lesser wages. I dont care if you are 16 or 60, if you are behind the counter at a gas station or working at the supermarket making minimum wage, that doesnt give you the right to treat people like garbage. I dont think we should focus only on the young. many times its full blown "adults" that have this attitude as well.

Master_Shake · 12-14-2004, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Those life skills you learn as a teenager in a minimum wage job will carry you much further than thinking ...

Right, right, right. Those life skills like being exploited, taking shit from people and hocking french fries and sneakers with lights in them. Dude, I worked at a fast food joint back in high school and the only thing I got out of the experience was that I never wanted to work in fast food again.

I now work for a monolithic insurance company. This company's goal is preventing people from using their insurance that they have purchased. I am a cog in the great machine that is designed to prevent people from understanding their policies.

My job exists, not to provide a better product or contribute to society, but rather to hurt people and cause pain so that the rich fucks at the top of the heap can have a few more quarters in their bucket at the end of the night. What is honourable about this? I do it because I get paid, not because it is fufilling. That I approach my job with some disdain should not be surprising. That I manage to do it at all should.

I am not a good person, and I don't expect anyone to have pity on me. But in what fucked up world is it right that I earn more money than some illegal immigrant working in the much more difficult food service industry trying to support his family?

And the logic of the prostitute goes like this:

For $20, you can probably get a blow job. But the hooker is only interested in finishing you off as quickly as possible. She has to blow a lot of guys to earn enough to keep her pimp off her back, so she doesn't have a lot of time or patience to deal with your specific issues.

For $500, you can get a blow job and the hooker can take her time with you, providing the full service you want, and doing those little extras like talking dirty to you, or finishing with a Cleveland Steamer.

It's the same with retail or fast food. At McDonald's, where the employees earn shit, you are a number in line. They have to move you through the door so more people can come through. They have to sell a lot of $1.00 hamburgers to make the rent. They are trained not to deal with specifics or details. Every burger is made the same. When you hold up their line they are unhappy, because they get shit from their manager for taking so long later on. That this attitude spills over to times when they aren't so busy should not come as a surprise.

Accordingly, at a more expensive fine dining place (Not Denny's!) you should expect a little more service. The waiter should come by to refill your glass more often, and the food should be of superior quality. But you have to pay for it accordingly (in both cost and tips).

Quote:

We're much better off without them because those that choose to stay do so with a passion for making the most of their ability and delivering the most value possible to their clients. It's a fantastic formula when it's properly applied. I suggest you try it.

I don't know, maybe you are right. Maybe I should just do my best for the company. Yeah, it really is important that I find a way to deny that Allentown couple benefits. I mean, they'd be receiving medical treatment for the rest of his life! What's inoperable brain cancer weighed against the interests of the company. I mean shit, he's going to die anyway. Should my employers suffer some economic losses just so his family can hang on to his nearly vegetative carcass a little longer?

No, you've convinced me. I'm going to approach my job with much more vigor in the future. I'll make sure those bastards don't get one over on the system.

Techno · 12-14-2004, 05:36 AM

Quote:

What's funny is that you bitch when an employer does this to you, but you think it's okay for you to do. You are irresponsible, lazy and unreliable, so the company gave you the finger. And they were damn right in doing that.

Ok, so this was directed at my comment where I said: "Hey, I am a twat, and this is a shitty thing to do". It's nice when so mofo feels the need to still jump and down on my head for it.

Quote:

What work ethic!

My work ethic. Which is different to yours. My work ethic that tells me a minimum wage job is less important than a human's happiness. Why must I respect yours, when you have no respect for mine? This is what I always find difficult about this topic, I'm willing to talk, listen and even learn. Then there's folk on the other side just want to hegemonise all the little worker bees.

Quote:

If that's your approach to employment now as a job taker vs. a job maker I would have no reason to expect you would behave differently if I paid you $50,000 a year vs. minimum wage.

Bollocks. Most of the pro-slacker poster here has stated that if the job was interesting, they'd work more productively. IMO a $50,000 job should offer some intellectual stimulation so I'd be willing to show up 100% of the time.

Quote:

I think you might find some answers about childish teenagers in this book.

It's an interesting read (so far). I liked this quote

Quote:

You can learn what you need, even the technical stuff, at the moment you need it or shortly before.

Carno · 12-14-2004, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Ok, so this was directed at my comment where I said: "Hey, I am a twat, and this is a shitty thing to do". It's nice when so mofo feels the need to still jump and down on my head for it.

No, it was directed at your post where you complained about being fired because you're an unreliable worker.

Quote:

My work ethic. Which is different to yours. My work ethic that tells me a minimum wage job is less important than a human's happiness. Why must I respect yours, when you have no respect for mine? This is what I always find difficult about this topic, I'm willing to talk, listen and even learn. Then there's folk on the other side just want to hegemonise all the little worker bees.

Out in the working world, employers expect a certain amount of work from their employees. It is fairly common that most employers expect their employees to show up and do the work that they agreed to do.

You, on the other hand, expect employers to cater to you, and you disdain job that aren't good enough for you.

Sorry if it sounds rude, but that way of thinking just screams of immaturity and laziness.

Blackthorn · 12-14-2004, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Shake

Right, right, right. Those life skills like being exploited, taking shit from people and hocking french fries and sneakers with lights in them. Dude, I worked at a fast food joint back in high school and the only thing I got out of the experience was that I never wanted to work in fast food again.

I now work for a monolithic insurance company. This company's goal is preventing people from using their insurance that they have purchased. I am a cog in the great machine that is designed to prevent people from understanding their policies.

My job exists, not to provide a better product or contribute to society, but rather to hurt people and cause pain so that the rich fucks at the top of the heap can have a few more quarters in their bucket at the end of the night. What is honourable about this? I do it because I get paid, not because it is fufilling. That I approach my job with some disdain should not be surprising. That I manage to do it at all should.

I am not a good person, and I don't expect anyone to have pity on me. But in what fucked up world is it right that I earn more money than some illegal immigrant working in the much more difficult food service industry trying to support his family?

And the logic of the prostitute goes like this:

For $20, you can probably get a blow job. But the hooker is only interested in finishing you off as quickly as possible. She has to blow a lot of guys to earn enough to keep her pimp off her back, so she doesn't have a lot of time or patience to deal with your specific issues.

For $500, you can get a blow job and the hooker can take her time with you, providing the full service you want, and doing those little extras like talking dirty to you, or finishing with a Cleveland Steamer.

It's the same with retail or fast food. At McDonald's, where the employees earn shit, you are a number in line. They have to move you through the door so more people can come through. They have to sell a lot of $1.00 hamburgers to make the rent. They are trained not to deal with specifics or details. Every burger is made the same. When you hold up their line they are unhappy, because they get shit from their manager for taking so long later on. That this attitude spills over to times when they aren't so busy should not come as a surprise.

Accordingly, at a more expensive fine dining place (Not Denny's!) you should expect a little more service. The waiter should come by to refill your glass more often, and the food should be of superior quality. But you have to pay for it accordingly (in both cost and tips).

I don't know, maybe you are right. Maybe I should just do my best for the company. Yeah, it really is important that I find a way to deny that Allentown couple benefits. I mean, they'd be receiving medical treatment for the rest of his life! What's inoperable brain cancer weighed against the interests of the company. I mean shit, he's going to die anyway. Should my employers suffer some economic losses just so his family can hang on to his nearly vegetative carcass a little longer?

No, you've convinced me. I'm going to approach my job with much more vigor in the future. I'll make sure those bastards don't get one over on the system.

Ladies and Gengleman I present Exhibit A.

Work hard, work smart and develop your skills so that you can earn a better than minimum wage living. Contribute to the best of your abilities in any job that you willingly take on and be a positive influence on those around you. The rewards you reap will be far greater than those that are sown by malcontents who complain that it's just the "rich fuck's at the top" way of keeping them down by only paying minimum wage for a job that they willingly took. Or perhaps as in this case the individual would think that there is no honor in working for minimum wage so he/she just sits there and complains about it maybe not even taking the job at all.

The choice is yours. The formula is simple. If you take the job then do your very best at it. In that there is honor. In that there is dignity. In that there is personal integrity. You can certainly pass on the job and apply for one that pays more. If you have the skills and talent and drive and desire and dedication then you will be rewarded. If you have the patience of a piss ant and the attitude of a derelict then you will be passed over.

Stompy · 12-14-2004, 07:35 AM

I worked at a fast food restaurant when I was 15-17. I started off with a positive attitude knowing that if I work good and hard, I'll get decent raises.

Wrong.

I busted my ass, was nice to every customer, and come raise time, I got a fucking 30 cent raise. Thirty fucking cents... after that, I just stopped trying and caring. Guess what? Next time a raise came, I got MORE of a raise than I did the first time, so I quickly learned that it really doesn't matter how you act toward others. All they care about is how many people get served and how to quickly make an extra buck (for example, "Would you like that super sized for ONLY 40 cents extra?"). Employees and customers are only numbers, unless, of course, a customer complains.

Then they are given an apology and free food. This is rare, though.

Generally you learn that 99% of your customers are inconsiderate assholes. Unless you're weak and simply take whatever people dish out to you "because it's my job", you learn to resent them and the job and see them for what they really are. Respect must be earned. Just because I was working behind the counter doesn't automatically mean I have to wipe your ass for you when you talk to me. I won't be rude, either, but if I detect a snobby or arrogant attitude, I'll treat you like the number you are. You know what you're gonna do? You're gonna deal with it, because trust me, a fast food employee dishing your attitude right back at you won't ruin your day. If it does, you have problems.

That was my fast food experience. Now I'm a computer programmer. While I don't deal with people nearly as much as a fast food job, I get them on occasion when I have to customize someone's application. I'm respectful, but if at any point they disrespect me, they get hung up on. I know some people don't agree with that, but I treat the customer like I treat any other person: you respect me, I respect you. You disrespect me, I disrespect you. Instead of disrespecting them, I just end the call. Easy as that.

Lately, I just refuse to answer the phone and stick with email.

Throughout the years, I've gathered enough skills and experience so that I'm a pretty valuable worker. Not to brag or anything, but generally whoever my current employer is would be SCREWED if I just up and left.

I've learned to use this to my advantage. I don't take advantage of it, though (if that makes sense). For example, I'm salary. I've had bosses/managers who've had the nerve to act as if I HAD to work 60 hour weeks. Sorry, it's not happening.

Also, if any boss or manager treats me with disrespect, they get it right back. I'm not afraid to speak my mind, because yes, it's a business, but I'm a human with feelings first and foremost. They KNOW if they fire me, they'll be SOL.

I think workers need to eventually take this position, because it will finally end all the "Hey, I'm the employer, you have to do devote half, if not more, of your waking life to make ME money!" bullshit.

Cynthetiq · 12-14-2004, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techno

Ok, so this was directed at my comment where I said: "Hey, I am a twat, and this is a shitty thing to do". It's nice when so mofo feels the need to still jump and down on my head for it.

My work ethic. Which is different to yours. My work ethic that tells me a minimum wage job is less important than a human's happiness. Why must I respect yours, when you have no respect for mine? This is what I always find difficult about this topic, I'm willing to talk, listen and even learn. Then there's folk on the other side just want to hegemonise all the little worker bees.

Bollocks. Most of the pro-slacker poster here has stated that if the job was interesting, they'd work more productively. IMO a $50,000 job should offer some intellectual stimulation so I'd be willing to show up 100% of the time.

It's an interesting read (so far). I liked this quote

I'll say then that you didn't read my post...

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...postid=1490883

I paid my staff an average of over $55,000. They got to hang out with rock stars and entertainment talent all the time. They got to go to free movies, rocking parties and clubs... and what did some of them do? Still be slackers...

11-28-2004, 10:00 PM	#82 (permalink)
cybersharp Insane	That is so ironic.....for me it was the oposite! I wanted work...but played x-box and games all the time...because i didnt have work! I was mental capable as well as physicaly and I couldnt find any jobs that I thought I would do well because every one of the jobs that I would have done well would have allready been taken. Ironic....there just simply isnt enough jobs in my town that i am aware of I suppose.. __________________ 0PtIcAl

11-29-2004, 04:40 AM	#84 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	hmmm I how many of us encountered a teen working while shopping on (black) Friday and can make a pleasant report about it? (sorry to you teens that are responsible...but ya'll are NOT the norm from what I see) I thought if I had to deal with one more teenager in Savannah this weekend I was personally going to through them in the Savannah River....I cant believe some of these kids get paid to ignore you and then be rude when you have the audacity to interupt their PERSONAL conversation either with another teen in the store or on the phone. UGH __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

12-05-2004, 10:14 PM	#87 (permalink)
charlesesl Psycho	Geez, no wonder it was so hard to find a job when I was a teen. __________________ It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

12-10-2004, 11:50 AM	#92 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I really hope with that attitude you're not surprised you got fired. When you accept the responsibility of working you are accepting all the things that go with it. Did you ever once consider the reprecussions of calling in sick just because you didnt "feel" like going in (besides being fired I mean)? Did you ever once consider who else you might be inconveniencing because they had to take over for you? __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

12-11-2004, 05:48 AM	#95 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	It all about accountability.....obviously some people understand what it means and some people dont. Its the people that dont that my tax dollars (here in the US) pay for when they go on welfare cause they dont "feel" like working. Dont get me wrong....government assistance has its place....I know there are situations where it IS needed, and I pray Im never in that situation....but anyone that has been anywhere near an unemployment office, or behind someone in the grocery store using WIC stamps knows exactly what I mean about the "unaccountable" ones.....had those same people been taught a work ethic and didnt believe that their job "owed" them the tax dollars could be better spent on those that are REALLY in need of help. It really infuriates me that someone thinks their job needs to be more understanding because they want to stay home and "play games" thats what earned vacation days are for. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

11-26-2004, 07:15 PM	#81 (permalink)
Tidus Tilted	Well, I am a teen and I work hard cause I want a better future..im dont play x-box, but a bit of ps2 on weekends.

11-28-2004, 10:16 PM	#83 (permalink)
indigochild111 Crazy	Although I am an 18 year old, I will not disrespect you in the way that some others have. I will have to say that your first post did make me angry, but you recanted somewhat. I will say this however. I have been at my job for over a year now. I never called in sick, I never slacked off. I always gave 150%. And you know what, now I'M THE MANAGER! After a year of working at the restaurant they made me a manager. I worked hard from the beginning, but like it was said earlier, the little rewards motivated me to work even harder. My bosses are incredible. Once they "took notice" of my hard work it really boosted my confidence and made me want to do a good job. I realize that you were just venting in your first post, but next time try not to generalize so much

12-05-2004, 07:49 PM	#85 (permalink)
joeshoe Crazy Location: California	You get what you pay for. But really, these teens aren't working for a living. They're not working to survive. They don't care if they get fired. So they're not going to put a whole lot of effort into it. I'm not saying all teens are like this, but some really are.

12-05-2004, 09:02 PM	#86 (permalink)
Bodhi Upright Location: Lexington, Kentucky	I find that peole in theri 20's are just as bad or worse.

12-07-2004, 07:53 PM	#88 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I can't really add much to this post, but I'm going to put in my 2 cents anyway. I've been in the workforce for 11 years and have been a hard worker the entire time. My mom taught me to be a good worker...my first job was with her and if I had slacked off I would have been in a lot of trouble. That ethic has stuck with me ever since. I oversaw (not managed) the cashiers and baggers in a grocery store for about a year. 90% of the employees were 21 or younger. They talked on the phone. They goofed off. They didn't provide even decent customer service. I think that this was caused by several reasons though; low pay, lack of work ethic, and lack of respect for upper management. I rarely had problems with the employees when I was there, because they respected me. I didn't get on them if they didnt need it, I didn't ask them to do anything I wasn't willing to do myself, and I treated them with decency. Other members of management sat on their asses in the office and didn't do a damn thing...that's not exactly inspirational to do some good work. The other departments paid much better and tended to be staffed by older people who didn't call in sick and made it to work on time; they needed their jobs to keep food on the table. Its impossible to survive on minimum wage or near minimum wage and have a decent standard of living, even if you are single. I don't know why this sliding trend is happening, but I have been there, I know it's frustrating.

12-07-2004, 10:14 PM	#89 (permalink)
yellowchef Addict Location: Shalimar, FL	Its a lot on poor parenting, media projection of how teens should behave and the fact that many people just tolerate the way teens behave. I have noticed there is little to no disciplinary actions for a teen vs an older person. I know not to slack off ever, it wont get me anywhere(except in the case of my old job where everyone was fucking everyone) and I always hear my parents in the back of my head saying things about how most people appreciate hard work and a well behaved person. If you look at the way the media portrays teens today theyre all half assed rich kids who dont have to work, barely go to school and the parents pay for EVERYTHING. Sometimes it cant be helped, but for 95% of kids it can be helped.

12-11-2004, 01:22 PM	#97 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	As is apparent in my profile, Im 36 Where is Georgia? Its in the US in the South. Your post said that you were fired for taking personal time off after you went into great detail as to how you decide if you wanted to go into work or not, so how do you expect anyone to have have a different view. I used to think life was about nothing but partying and having fun....and damn, just like you I couldnt keep a job either, (until I was about 20)....then I learned about accountability, not only to myself but society as well, in other words I grew up. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

12-12-2004, 08:24 AM	#99 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Techno, is integrity a part of your ideal state? How do you reconcile accepting jobs where people or companies compensate you for performance when it sounds like you have no intention of performing? Commitment is a pretty basic piece of human interaction. Whether warming a cubicle or building homeless shelters, if you aren't holding up your end of bargains - being true to your word - you should expect to be looked upon as unreliable, inconsiderate, irresponsible, etc. If you defend that as a reasonable course, it's very difficult to take you seriously. At some point you've got to come to terms with the fact that society is a bargain. Compromises for the common good. Find your balance point and use the inevitable crap as opportunities for growth. The alternative is antisocial standards and life at the fringe. Works for the occasional guru if that's your thing.

12-12-2004, 08:38 PM	#100 (permalink)
Xenomorph Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	If you really detest the idea of wages, start your own business. Owning a business and massaging the stock market are just about the only two ways to make your own living in this world if you don't want to get paid by a business owner, a welfare officer, or your parents. It doesn't have to be anything elaborate. People pay for legal service but they pay for lawn care too. The lady that cleans my parents' house brings in a couple thousand dollars a month just hopping from client to client, and I think she's doing just fine not having seen a paycheck in however many years she's been doing it. She's got way more would-be customers than she can accept, and they're paying top dollar to have her wash their towels. Of course, she shows up every time she's scheduled to. And she works until the job is done. And she does the job well. And I suspect that there was a tougher time at the beginning of her venture when she didn't have enough customers to clean two houses a weekday, rotating through them every two weeks. These customers were probably unwiling to pay her more than they would anyone else who walked off the street until they saw how hard she worked, too. She's tried to hire some help and expand her customer base a bit but, wouldn't you know it, it's tough to find people who do a thorough job even when they don't feel like it or realize that the world will go on if they call in "sick". Many of us would probably be more in our "ideal states" if we only went to work 75% of the time, but that probably sounds laughable to the people that busted their butts to start up the businesses that hire the rest of us. I heartily agree that even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat. Yet, if you think you're too good for your job, you'd better prove it by finding or creating a better one. __________________ The facehugger is short-lived outside the egg which normally protects it. Armed with a long grasping tail, a spray of highly-concentrated acid and the single-minded desire to impregnate a single selected prey using its extending probe, it will fearlessly pursue and attack a single selected target until it has succeeded in attachment or it or its target is dead

12-13-2004, 07:46 AM	#101 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Xenomorph... good statement of starting one's own business... why is that a good statement? Because these young "slackers" (for lack of a better word..) will fail miserably. Why? because they don't have the ethic to begin with... because in the beginning of the business cycle, the most crucial where they have to spend many hours pounding the pavement, making phone calls, looking for solicitations of work... they won't bother. Techno won't bother to do "above and beyond" for wages, why would he do it for the "promise" of future business or contracts? __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

12-13-2004, 07:57 AM	#102 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	continuing from cynthetiq.....they also wont realize they dont come first 1st hubby and I had our own business for 11 years.....we started it in 1990 up until 1997 we were lucky to get one paycheck a month from it....vendors and employees always came before us....we never went out....we lived on sandwiches and his mothers left overs....I shopped at goodwill or made my own clothes (Im not complaining so dont take it that way) work days were 6 days a week minimum of 12 hours per day...in other words we busted our ass for the "american dream" I can honestly say that now that the business is gone and I (and him) are part of the normal rat race....working to make someone else rich...we have more money and time to enjoy it than we ever did. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

12-13-2004, 12:40 PM	#106 (permalink)
godxzilla Crazy Location: Columbus, OH	There is nothing worse than this attitude. I hate when I got somewhere and just because the person is in a lower paying job, they treat me like shit. thats just uncalled for. would it KILL you to smile? would it kill you to learn a little about the product you are selling or maybe give 1/2 a crap about yourself and your job? argh...this thread brings up some anger in me __________________ Mike

12-13-2004, 02:53 PM	#109 (permalink)
Xenomorph Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	You seem to equate the ability to make a load of money with greed, Techno. A friend is a friend but a bank is "The Man". The Marxist image of a fat guy with a top hat sitting on a pile of bags with the dollar sign on them is convenient and easy to deride, but do realize that banks and big corporates and, yes, even government agencies are composed of working people, the majority of which are not on the board of directors of a Fortune 500 company. The bank owner gets his home in the Bahamas and will never have to go to bed worrying about paying the rent or holding his own in the job market, but that's in exchange for the jobs he's provided his employees with. He hires white-collar financial consultants and gives them thousands for every decision they make for him, but he hires people to sweep the floor too. The fact that some people have managed through whatever combination of luck and brilliance to find themselves on the top of the fiscal heap does not make them evil or out to get you. They would probably like it if you agreed to the terms of the loan you signed up for, though. The workers of the world are, sadly, not going to unite. I don't mind doing all the work that I agreed to when I accepted employment, and unless I'm sick or unable to transport myself to work, I'll show up. This is capitalism. The worker is protected here in the United States more than he is in Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations", but we're still in a relatively free market economy and labor is a commodity on that market. I don't manufacture a product, so in order to make money I provide a service. It would be bad business practice for an employer to retain me if I called in gaming every four days, just as I consider it unethical for me to do so. As for honor and integrity, I think the issue is simple. If you call in sick and you are, in fact, not sick, you've lied, dishonored yourself, and compromised your integrity. It is a simple exchange, though, and its usually implied if not overtly stated that the worker is actually going to fulfill his end of it, just as the employer does. The world would go on if I got 75% of my paycheck, but that wouldn't be very sporting of the employer, would it? __________________ The facehugger is short-lived outside the egg which normally protects it. Armed with a long grasping tail, a spray of highly-concentrated acid and the single-minded desire to impregnate a single selected prey using its extending probe, it will fearlessly pursue and attack a single selected target until it has succeeded in attachment or it or its target is dead

12-13-2004, 09:34 PM	#113 (permalink)
EULA Crazy Location: Bowling Green, KY	I think you might find some answers about childish teenagers in this book.

12-14-2004, 04:02 AM	#114 (permalink)
godxzilla Crazy Location: Columbus, OH	Id also have to say that its NOT just teen workers. its workers that are in the unfortunate position of working for lesser wages. I dont care if you are 16 or 60, if you are behind the counter at a gas station or working at the supermarket making minimum wage, that doesnt give you the right to treat people like garbage. I dont think we should focus only on the young. many times its full blown "adults" that have this attitude as well. __________________ Mike

12-14-2004, 07:35 AM	#119 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	I worked at a fast food restaurant when I was 15-17. I started off with a positive attitude knowing that if I work good and hard, I'll get decent raises. Wrong. I busted my ass, was nice to every customer, and come raise time, I got a fucking 30 cent raise. Thirty fucking cents... after that, I just stopped trying and caring. Guess what? Next time a raise came, I got MORE of a raise than I did the first time, so I quickly learned that it really doesn't matter how you act toward others. All they care about is how many people get served and how to quickly make an extra buck (for example, "Would you like that super sized for ONLY 40 cents extra?"). Employees and customers are only numbers, unless, of course, a customer complains. Then they are given an apology and free food. This is rare, though. Generally you learn that 99% of your customers are inconsiderate assholes. Unless you're weak and simply take whatever people dish out to you "because it's my job", you learn to resent them and the job and see them for what they really are. Respect must be earned. Just because I was working behind the counter doesn't automatically mean I have to wipe your ass for you when you talk to me. I won't be rude, either, but if I detect a snobby or arrogant attitude, I'll treat you like the number you are. You know what you're gonna do? You're gonna deal with it, because trust me, a fast food employee dishing your attitude right back at you won't ruin your day. If it does, you have problems. That was my fast food experience. Now I'm a computer programmer. While I don't deal with people nearly as much as a fast food job, I get them on occasion when I have to customize someone's application. I'm respectful, but if at any point they disrespect me, they get hung up on. I know some people don't agree with that, but I treat the customer like I treat any other person: you respect me, I respect you. You disrespect me, I disrespect you. Instead of disrespecting them, I just end the call. Easy as that. Lately, I just refuse to answer the phone and stick with email. Throughout the years, I've gathered enough skills and experience so that I'm a pretty valuable worker. Not to brag or anything, but generally whoever my current employer is would be SCREWED if I just up and left. I've learned to use this to my advantage. I don't take advantage of it, though (if that makes sense). For example, I'm salary. I've had bosses/managers who've had the nerve to act as if I HAD to work 60 hour weeks. Sorry, it's not happening. Also, if any boss or manager treats me with disrespect, they get it right back. I'm not afraid to speak my mind, because yes, it's a business, but I'm a human with feelings first and foremost. They KNOW if they fire me, they'll be SOL. I think workers need to eventually take this position, because it will finally end all the "Hey, I'm the employer, you have to do devote half, if not more, of your waking life to make ME money!" bullshit. __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 12-14-2004 at 07:44 AM..