ShaniFaye

(please move this if its in the wrong place...I honestly couldnt figure out the best forum)

I read this today and I know that I'm American...I know that I in no way could understand the culture that thinks this way..but I swear I cant wrap my mind around the way this woman thinks

Beat me once a week.....

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Willravel

I know a lot of people like to shroud this sort of thing under 'cultural differences', but people don't think murder or rape is cultural. This is a disgusting, evil practice that is carried out by cowards and accepted by even bigger cowards. If I ever saw one of my friends, regaredless of race or culture, hit a woman, I would step in to defend her. Any man who would raise his hand or fist against a woman in order to scare her "enough to obey" him should be beaten 10 fold what he gave out, by the woman he hit. Obediance by a wife is not mandatory by any rule or law of nature. It is a stupid belief that is perpetuated by ignorance. Obediance is not a part of a healthy relationship between a man and a woman. Mutual respect is.

ShaniFaye

Whats gets me is that SHE thinks its ok enough to deal with it once a week, I often wonder if people who dont understand the BDSM lifestyle think about it like I think about the way the poor woman has to live.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

TM875

I believe that in a lot of cultures, including most Muslim countries, it is.

I'm not going to pick apart your statement, but realize how narrowminded and elitest it is. I'm not defending beating women - I would never do that nor condone doing it in the United States - but realize that our culture is not the be all and end all of World Society. Thoughts and comments like yours are part of the reason that a good chunk of the world hates us.

Yes, to us beating women is morally and culturally wrong. So is enslaving children, so is caning prisioners, so is systematically destroying opposing ethnic groups. But realize that this is something that sociologically we, as a society and ONLY our society, have grown to accept. In our past, we have made children slaves (1920s factories), we have used barbaric punishments on prisioners (16 and 1700s), and we have systematically destroyed many original ethnic groups (need I mention the American Indian?). Today, in our world, we would not accept these actions. But we did. And no American hates all Americans because we once did this.

Culture is relative. It may seem okay for us to wear jeans and worship the pop singer on that magazine cover, but the rest of the world may not see it that way. Many find how we live our lives and how we treat other people (yes, even women in our culture) as disgusting. Whose to say who is right?

To believe that we're superior just because we're...us...is to be no better than that man who is beating his wife. In fact, it's worse - he's not trying to make us beat our wives, now is he?

EDIT for clarity: When I refer to "our society" I am referring to the United States and most Western European nations. Please don't use the argument of "other countries support not beating your wife, so then it must be right". That's the fallacy of begging the question.

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"I've made only one mistake in my life. But I made it over and over and over. That was saying 'yes' when I meant 'no'. Forgive me."

Dane Bramage

Indeed it is sad. Cultural difference or no it's hard to convince someone that a different way of life than the one they were reaised in is any better that what they now know.

That woman was brought up in a culture that perpetuates that kind of treatment of women. She has no way of knowing what the rest of the world thinks. She is probably uneducated and now allowed out of the house without a chaperone.

Sad... very sad.

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maleficent

For the longest time, the standard wedding vow (unless you were a crunchy hippie type and wrote your own) included Love honor and obey. Now it seems to be love, honor and cherish, but that's a pretty recent phenomenon (like the past 20 years)

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Rdr4evr

This is not part of the culture. This is actually very rare, Muslims dont beat their wives on a normal basis, once again this is false bs the media would like you to believe. Just because this one guy beats his wife and she is to weak to do find a better life for herself, does not mean the entire culture believes in this.

inharmony

If it is their culture, then why did the courts (who practice the same) find him guilty? I agree that our society, however narrowminded we are, needs to be sensitive to other cultures. With that said...any beating of anyone imo is wrong.

__________________
"You can't shake hands with a clenched fist."
Ghandi

"Things do not change: We change"
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Rodney

Everybody. I have the absolute right to say that beating someone who is weaker than I or less powerful, to maintain my power, is wrong. Not all systems and societies are healthy just because they exist. If you don't honestly believe that some things are absolutely wrong, then you don't really believe in anything. If wanting to protect the weak makes me an elitist in your eyes, well.... I just don't know.

For example, many of the people you're defending in the name of moral relativism would _absolutely condemn you_ for some of the things that you do. They'd think your own moral relativism was shameful.

Am I going to go overseas and force men to stop beating their wives? No. Am I going to agitate for the government to force them to stop? No. You can't impose cultural change. You _can_ incite change by being an example: the U.S., with its relatively good (not the best) record on women's rights floods the world with media that shows women who make their own decisions and have dignity to themselves, and do you think that this message starts to sink in after a while? You bet, in the places that are ready for it. And any country that wants to be part of the modern world economy as anything other than a supplier of raw materials and low-grade manufactured goods, probably is.

In _this_ country, however, if an African or Pakistani beats his wife just like in the old country, I'm calling the cops. Screw cultural sensitivity. Some things are just wrong, and I do believe that the religious writings of those other cultures would say so as well. I haven't read it, but I really doubt that the Koran has good things to say about wife beating.

gcbrowni

Cultural Relativism has been discredited many times in the past. If you can't call wife beating wrong then you can't call ethnic cleansing wrong either. It's ok to find other cultural practices interesting, but you don't have to accept them on any level.

Rescheduling your morning meetings around a co-workers prayer schedule is being polite; not calling female genital mutilation wrong is another thing entirely.

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Bill O'Rights

*standing ovation*

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Willravel

I understand what you are saying, but I'd like to clarify a few things in pertaining to your response to my post.
My argument may be elitest, but I don't think it's narrow minded. I am well aware of other cultures, be they for or against beating of women. I have seen first hand, in visiting several middle eastern citys and towns, what this perticular culture is like on the surface. I also had the privlege to stay with a great family there. This family was of the belief that obediance by the women was necessary to keep order in the household. We had many long discussions over dinner (in english, thank God) about the subject. We agreed to dissagree in the end, but I can see where they are coming from. I still consider it to be wrong.

I'm afraid you lost me. In that you specifically say that beating women is culturally wrong. Then you go on to say that 'culture is relative'.

I was not implying that we (the US) are the perfect society. We are pretty far from it. HOWEVER, I do believe that beating women is wrong. Equating it with Britney Spears and blue jeans is asking a bit much. We make serious mistakes ourselves, but on average our culture does not tolerate beating someone. The husband is clearly not defending himself from physical danger his wife put him in.

I will not argue that obediance from a woman is a cultural difference. I may not see it as fair, but I can understand it. When the situation escalates to violence, however, I still say it's wrong.

powerclown

I have Muslim neighbors, a young married family with kids, and our (American) female neighbor further down the street always teases the guy about how this is America, women aren't looked down upon, don't boss her around so much, get up and get yourself a glass of water, go help her clean up the dishes, etc..it seems that Muslim women are subservient to Muslim men customarily, although I can't judge as far as outside the home in public because I just don't know, haven't seen it. They seem pretty happy people, so who knows...

As far as the Iranian being allowed to beat his wife once a week, well...I think everyone here has so far echoed my own thoughts on the matter. Pretty ridiculous.

skills1

Very interesting, completely based on culture. Good read.

rainheart

Uhm, he wasn't allowed to beat her wife once a week. The court found him guilty.

Iranians condemn that sort of thing but it's customary (ie if the wife is dominating the relationship then she is regarded as a terrible wife and nobody will like her) for the wife to be the best wife she can be, in that patriarchal society sense.

It's vaguely similar to the way things were in America back in the 1950's. Maybe that would put things in perspective for you.

ShaniFaye

well I will add this....I have know a few Iranian couples......and this is exactly how they operated...I have witnessed it first hand so they dont ALL condemn it

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

mirevolver

First, this was an Iranian court that forbade him from beating his wife. Iranian courts operate under muslim law. Muslim law may seem to us to be oppressive toward women such as the head scarves, but the justification is the laws are to protect women (headscarves help prevent the women from being looked upon as sexual objects). Beating one's wife is in no way protecting her and is in fact doing the opposite, and the Iranian court agrees since they condemned it.

Second, I would submit that any man who beats his wife is not a man at all. I for one find it repulsive even to the point of avoiding use of the phrase, "Rule of thumb." Since the origin of that phrase comes from an old English law that allowed a man to beat his wife provided that the stick he used was no wider than the width of his thumb.

Third, in regards to the BDSM lifestyle, that is purely consensual on both sides and when done right there are always saftey measures taken before hand. There is a big difference between having pleasure from pain, and pleasure from assult. Any good Master/Mistress will tell you that their goal is to create pleasure through subserviance in the sub, and not to physically hurt the sub.

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ShaniFaye

mirevolver....being in the lifestyle (and being the good mistress that I am lol) I know that SOME people know the difference....I just wondered if vanilla's looked at it the same kind of way IE....the whipping/flogging used as a control measure...but them not seeing that that is a means of pleasure and is desirable to the sub

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

filtherton

I remember when a man could still beat a woman in the u.s.. Actually, i don't, but i know that such a time existed. It is a shame when one can condemn an entire culture for something one's own culture has just recently (relatively) outgrown. I'm not saying it's right, just, well, you know.

mirevolver

Yes, well being one who is not in the lifestyle (though does have some curiosity towards it), I do see the difference. And after my rant on the first two topics, I just wanted to point out that I do know that there is a difference.

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Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

*Nikki*

The day a man hits me, is his last day with his package intact.

ShaniFaye

from www.dumblaws.com

Arkansas
A man can legally beat his wife, but not more than once a month.

California (Los Angeles)
It is illegal for a man to beat his wife with a strap wider than 2 inches without her consent.

West Virginia
It is legal to beat your wife so long as it is done in public on Sunday, on the courthouse steps.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ShaniFaye

Oh I knew you did....I was just making sure that other people understood what I meant by my original statement on BDSM in my first post

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Anomaly_

mirevolver

Very well then, I retract the "rule of thumb" part. However I still find any man who beats his wife to be both repulsive and reprehensible.

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Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

The Phenomenon

My response to that would be: WHAT THE FUCK?

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KellyC

It already pisses me off when a man verbally abuse his woman, but to do this, and on a daily basis...well I hope that asshole burn in hell.
The day when I lay a hand on my woman intentionally or not, is the day I lost the right to call myself a/her man...

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Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
Me: Shit happens.

Flyguy

VERY well said

jwoody

It's been a while since I looked this up so my info may be slightly sketchy but the actual origin of the phrase is from the qur'an.

In the time of Mohammed people used a certain type of twig with frayed end to clean their teeth. The twig would be snapped to the length of your thumb.

...found it:

little_tippler

I was reading this and just thinking that everyone is talking like beating women is a thing of the past, so I had a laugh when I saw Shanifaye's post.

As far as I can tell the majority of people will not do anything to help a woman who is being beaten in her home, if they hear it from their home, most will turn a deaf ear unless it's very disturbing. Most people don't want to know about other people's lives unless it's happening right in front of them. Mos people are selfish I think.

And wife-beating is so, so common. It's all very well how you feel/think and how you voice your concern, but who does anything about it? The truth is it's easy to abuse someone, physically or verbally, given the chance, especially if the victim is so devoted to you they can't see the wood for the trees...

Don't know if you get me here, I don't mean to elicit any incensed responses but I'm tired of hearing people's eloquent speeches on life when things are never as black and white as we tell ourselves, day after day...

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

pig

I just wanted to clap a little with Bill. I'm certainly not saying that American / Western culture is perfect - far from it etc. - but the shield of cultural relativism is not blanket immunity from despicable practices. If you say that I eat grits and the guy in Morrocco eats cous-cous, I can accept that for cultural relativism. If you say that it's ok that he beats his wife and I don't, then cultural relativism be damned. I don't see this as a "cultural hangup." This is something I believe we can logically argue and come to the conclusion that suppression of females and the accompanying physical abuse is not in the best interest of the society or the individual, nor is it morally defensible from the standpoint of "ethics," as long as you accept the caveat that females are 1. homosapiens, and 2. capable of thought. If you don't accept those two principles, well then....

Yeah, I'm not real big on moral relativism.

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Averett

I just want to point out that it doesn't say in the article if the couple is Muslim. So all of the talk about Muslims vs. others might not apply. This couple might not be Muslim. Of course being in Iran, the chances are very slim.


That being said, I feel badly for the woman.

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ShaniFaye

I have a question.....if its not an accepted practice why wouldnt the woman ask for the beatings to be stopped altogheter? why only ask for once a week?

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

maleficent

She answered that question
She loves him.
She's middle aged (which probably makes her my age which is scarey)
If her husband stopped beating her, or she left, she probably figures she has no place to go, and no ability to take care of herself, so she'll take the beating once a week - rather than life alone.

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ShaniFaye

well mal what I meant was...in response to these people saying its not a "way of life"
I wanted THEM to tell me how it isnt considered that way given what she was asking

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

*Nikki*

I am sorry but I was reading all of this again and I started thinking about how ironic it was that Shani started this discussion being her sig and avatar and such.

I just got a little chuckle out of that

ShaniFaye

SEE I knew somebody was gonna bring that up hehehe Im glad it was somebody NOT in the lifestyle (mirevolver) that made the distinction about the difference between the two things

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

*Nikki*

Oh I know the difference.... I just like to point everything out. That is my speciality

warrrreagl

Forgive me if this has already been said, but I believe Westerners are too quick to view other cultures through Western values, and thereby impose a Western interpretation onto an event that is clearly not Western.

In a very poor example, imagine the Asian viewpoint the first time they saw a Scotsman wearing a kilt. My guess would be that they might view the Scottish man as being effiminate, because in their own culture only women wear skirts. This would be an example of interpreting someone else's culture through your own limited view. Watching midwesterners thrash and flail about every time they see a Confederate flag in the South is another example. Although that flag is the direct equivalent of Ku Klux Klan to people in the midwestern US, it has many, many varied and complex meanings to Southern people (both black and white). Therefore, it's foolish to attempt to interpret someone else's actions through your own admittedly different values.

Disney used to anthrophomorphize animals in a similar way in their little nature films, and we all got used to interpreting animal behavior by comparing it to a similar-looking human behavior. Zoologists still cringe at the thought of those 1950's Disney films.

Therefore, although I personally don't want to eat another human being or beat my wife, I would not dare be so arrogant as to tell another person in another part of the world that they shouldn't do that simply because it gives me the willies and wouldn't be tolerated on my street.

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Living is easy with eyes closed.

Rinndalir

What do you tell a woman with 2 black eyes?

...nothing, you done told her twice... (old redneck joke)

Seriously, I don't care what country or culture you're from, that shit is WRONG.