Man, I totally just changed my mind. I'm switching to a sub-culture variant called piggletism where it's acceptable to beat women, kill minorities, and burn babies with hot candle-wax. You might not like it, but don't tell me it's wrong. It's my new heritage.

Early this mornin', when you knocked upon my door
Early this mornin', when you knocked upon my door
I said, 'Hello, Satan, I believe it's time to go

Me and the devil, both walkin' side by side
Me and the devil, both walkin' side by side
I'm going to beat my woman, 'til I get satisfied . . .
Robert Johnson

So what should we do when we make true (not conspiracy-based) first contact with an alien civilization? If we're willing to accept different ways of life from other planets, then it's not that much of an extension to expect us to accept it from within our own species.

Many historical precedents have been set, with the most notable being Christopher Columbus. In the late 15th Century, the Christian church had convinced everybody in Europe that it was impossible to lead a decent life without Christ. So when Columbus "discovered" millions of perfectly happy, healthy, and productive people who had never heard of Christ, it radically shook the foundations of Christianity. One of the tangible outcomes of the 1492 discoveries in the New World was the Protestant Reformation of 1517, where Christians told their churches they were fed up at being lied to. And predictably, the church did everything in its power to completely eliminate the heathen Indians.

ARTelevision started a fascinating thread along these same lines in Tilted Philosophy (http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=66403) and it's worth a look.

warrrreagl,

1. Just so you'll know, I was being a smart-ass. Which I'm prone to be.

2. This whole discussion, in my opinion (and it may be moving towards ARt's thread, which I've not read yet), is going to be complicated, per usual, in theory vs. practice sense. Thus, my own opinion in these situations is to delineate the difference between tolerance and acceptance. I will not accept such a cultural practice. I don't believe such a cultural practice should be accepted. I'll tolerate it, in the sense that I know it exists, and (as you referenced the Native American annihilation) I believe that are better ways to achieve changes than at the point of a gun, etc.

As an aside, concerning the Native Americans in the "New World," I'm not convinced that the Church wanted to eliminate the indigeneous peoples as much as they wanted to displace them, convert them, or enslave them. From what I've read, unfortunately the host of diseases that were brought over with the first European explorers / settlers pretty much wiped out / drastically decreased the population of many of the Native American tribes. I'm no historian, so I'm not really putting my foot down on that one.

People think other countries pay attention to how the USA treats women. For the vast majority...No.

I also lived in Uzbekistan for awhile and while there are domestic abuse issues that seriously need to be addressed I also know there were many strong and healthy families.
Matter of fact America is a weak example of family.

I'm gonna agree with tarvuz in that America is a weak example of a good family life. With our overfondness of television, video games and such we don't tend to form the strong family bonds that many other countries do. I'm not trying to say that beating one's spouse (women beat men too sometimes though you don't hear about it nearly as much) is right, but we're not a people to be forcing our opinions on what is right or not on others. I know I wouldn't beat my wife. I don't think beating one's spouse is right. America, for the most part, has laws against it, so doing so is against the law. There may be places where it's legal, I don't claim to be knowledgible of other countries' laws. If it's legal somewhere, so be it. That's their way of doing things. I still don't condone it, but it's not my place, as one person in the billions on the planet, to tell others what to think or do.

I don't buy this relativistic morals bullshit. I have spent a long time in school, I am highly educated, and I know that the systematic beating of people is not conducive to a healthy society. This is the same society where accused women are stoned to death for allegations of adultery, where women have acid thrown in their face for turning down a man's advances, where there is very little medical care for women. Yes, I can and should say that society in the middle east is really fucked up to women and outsiders. They need to grow up. I freely admit that my country and culture has made mistake in the past, but in general we are further along and the middle east needs to catch up.

Also, warrreagle, the rebel flag is kept as a racist symbol, that is it's primay meaning. The rest is lies to obfuscate the truth. And yes, I went to North Georgia College and State University from '91-'96, so I know what I am talking about.

My wife told me she wouldn't marry me if the word "obey" was included in our wedding vows.

Needless to say, it wasn't included in our wedding vows.

I don't think wifebeating is a cultural thing, at all. However I do believe that there are certain cultural aspects that can increase the likelihood of a man abusing his wife physically. Condemnable? Sure... But I wouldn't get up on such a high horse just yet.

I'd say that neighbour of theirs is sticking her nose where it doesn't belong. If I am not mistaken, there are cultures in which a woman's place and position in a household is quite restrictively defined, and to suggest that a man perform or assist a woman in performing 'female tasks' could - and to me understandably would - come across as suggesting that the woman is incapable of taking care of her duties and fulfilling her 'role'. You and I may not agree with these gender roles, but to someone else they may be part of the deeply rooted fabric of their culture and existence. Your neighbour might mean well, but might also be insulting both of them.

Obedience is not part of a healthy relationship between a man and a woman according to your value system and culture. Aside from the enlightened TFP crew, I dare suggest that there are relatively few couples out there that are perfectly equal. This old-fashioned ignorance, as you called it, is further instigated by cultural customs, and even law; there are still certain state-specific laws in the U.S. that grant the husband more control and ownership over mutual possessions. Furthermore, let's step aside from the wifebeating for a sec and examine gender roles. They persist, as much as we may pretend that they in some cases don't. In fact, in my own personal point of view, Americans seem more stuck with old gender roles than the majority of Western or even Eastern Europe. Most of the 'official' mail that drops in our mailbox here in Texas comes in my name (I'm the husband), or addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John Doe. My wife has a name, too, and it isn't Mrs. John Doe. Furthermore, I hear the phrase "head of the household" on a regular basis. It is even on official forms that I've had to fill out, and only one person is allowed to be named as head of the household. I recently read an article in which a woman claimed her bank refused to discuss details of her and her husband's mutual bank loan with her, because the bank would only deal with her husband directly, and told her the matter was "private". This was only in one commonwealth, though, not a general practice obviously.

Despite of all the equality, how come many European nations have elected female presidents, and we have not had one, not once, not ever? All we ever have are white, old, married men.

You may claim that while our beloved society has not progressed far enough in terms of creating equality between the sexes, we do not condone wifebeating either.

So?

I personally think that it is practically impossible to have perfectly equal relationships. The scale always tilts one way, no matter how much we'd like to praise ourselves for our astonishing ability to create the perfect relationship. Maintaining that facade of equality within the relationship requires constant re-evaluation of the gender roles, or redefinition of them. Ultimately someone always wears the pants, whether it ever comes up or not.

In some cultures, it is well defined that the man wears the pants, he's the head of the household, and the wife obeys him. By our standards, this is far from equality, we do not condone or perhaps even understand it. But I think the reason some men in these cultures resort to violence within the home is out of the sheer pressure of having to re-establish themselves in their position. Even in our beloved and better-than-others civilization I've heard men make remarks about a man not being able to keep his wife on a leash...

Ultimately, I believe it's not when we're perfectly equal that we are happy and content...it's when we know our places and are content within them.

I read through this entire thread and all I heard was, "Blah blah blah blah."

Folks, keep the discussion simple. Quit making it more than it is. Would you beat your spouse? If yes, then you think it's ok. If no, then you think it's not ok.

All this talk of "cultural differences" and "america is a big bully" are, albeit intelligently spoken and even has merit, COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC. Stay on one topic, and you'll avoid a big mess like this thread has turned into.

So in response to Shanifaye's original post: I believe the man's sentence should be that he has to allow his wife to beat him every day for as long as he has been beating her. I'll bet anything that she'll choose not to because she loves him, and chances are he'll realize that what he's been doing to her is pretty fucked up.

It was considered ok to beat your wife 50 years ago in western society, it's just that Muslim values haven't changed in the same way western values have.

willravel is right. things like this do not fall under cultural differences. since when is physically abusing your wife a part of someone's culture.

I don't know. I really don't. I feel that beating another person is inherently wrong - abuse of power and all that (assuming you're not doing things like ShaniFaye of course). But it's not my culture - it's very difficult to judge that objectively. However, the fact that the Muslim courts made an official decision that he was not to beat his wife anymore at all (and not even once a week) says to me that yeah, it's wrong altogether. His own culture judged him, thus moral relativism doesn't come into play here.

As far as other issues, such as genital mutilation within some African tribes... I find it abhorrent, but it's not my culture. I'm also not Jewish, so I can't imagine circumcising a baby boy, either - and don't forget, lots of people have it done to their sons who aren't Jewish! But that's accepted here, because Jewish people are part of our culture and heritage. That particular issue is subject to cultural relativism - we can't condemn others when we do something similar ourselves.

Only once a month or so...I taught her good during the honeymoon. ;)

I don't think there is room for cultural relativism... wrong is wrong and beating another person is wrong. End of story.

I don't care what their courts say, their religious leaders or their mother's... it's wrong.

WTF? I have NEVER seen a news story from a credible media outlet that said "Iranians encourage each other to whip up on their wives." This is taking media bashing to a new level of stupidity IMHO. Just because you hear it from Cleetus down the street or you read it on some blog somewhere does NOT mean the evil media is trying to brainwash you. Might wanna polish up that tin foil hat of yours.

That is all.

Wife-beating is not "cultural". Domestic violence is not "cultural". It is practiced EVERYWHERE. It's presumptuous to point fingers at "other cultures" that which is common in our own house. Ask a police officer how prolific domestic violence in the US is. Visit a women's shelter in the US. There are thousands. Besides, isn't "obey" a big part of Christian marriage vows and ideology?

It is ridiculous to be so elitist and arrogant - cast not stones in a glass house or whatever the saying is. My neighbors are Irish and Italian. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that it's "their culture" to beat their wives and children, especially after alcohol. Plus, we embrace it in our culture. Eminem rap, hip-hop etc all boast of beating their women. I feel left out of our "culture". I'm not cool enough to beat my wife and kids *sigh* I'm a lousy American. I just can't be like Tom Sizemore, Bobby Brown, OJ Simpson, Liza Minelli and millions of other good Americans who beat their wives and girlfriends. I guess I'm not "civilized" enough. Even on our own board here: Did anyone bother to check out K-wises journal? I don't think he's Iranian or Muslim. He's....wait for it....*gasp* American!

No, I don't think it's cultural. There are assholes everywhere, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity etc.

probably should have been more specific. the media does not generally portray middle eastern culture positively, which is why some Americans as well as other foreigners believe beating of wives in middle eastern or muslim culture is a method that is acceptable to them. as for the source of the original story, it's dead now, so whether it was from 'cleetus down the street' or a credible source, i'm not sure of. but you're correct, the media doesn't come out and bluntly say "iranians encourage each other to whip up on their wives", but there is a reason that a lot of other cultures believe this is something that middle eastern/muslim culture indeed does practice, and the mainstream media is the major source of 'news' to many. i should have said "generally", and i apologize.

If a guy wants to beat on a woman that's cool with me, as long as he agrees to be beaten buy someone who is naturaly more aggresive and at least twice as strong as he is. In fact, I'd volunteer to be the one who beats any man who wants to do this.</joking tone>

I do not understand the absolute lack of emotional control that drives a person to beat a person, or even an animal, who poses no real threat to them.

So who here supports the war in Iraq?

Who here thinks that spanking your children is a good practice?

Where do you draw the line of violence. Is it hypocrisy to be against beating a wife but supporting war and spanking your kids? What if your wife was in your mind and culture, like a child. I know a lot of people who wouldn't bat an eye at spanking a kid, perhaps even switching him. I was spanked and for all my faults I don't attribute any undue psychological trauma to it. I fought with my brothers for years, and we had some serious tussles. I think that's to an extent, normal.

I would never raise a hand against a woman, but I really want to know how someone can draw the line of violence at a certain point.

Also, I reread that rule of thumb 'debunking' and all it says is there has never been found the exact law.
However, they found myriad references to it. So why does that make it a myth?
That doesn't really satisfy any debunking, and I don't understand why that is considered a debunk.

Sorry for being off topic, but I'm confused.

I draw the line at violence against other people. I don't support the war in Iraq and I don't hit my kids.

Violence simply begets more violence. Escalation only ends up hurting or killing us all.

There are other methods... problem is they take a lot more time to see results. Most people would rather just reach out and whack someone than think it through. They want their answers and solutions now. Unfortunatley, it just doesn't work like that.

Thats really scary that beating your wife is ok in other countries. Its accepted over there and seems like a custom.

being a muslim myself, and also being married, i have never laid a finger on my wife... nor have i sworn at her or in her presence. my parents have been married for over 30 years and have never laid a finger on each other, i also have 15 uncles and aunts, and have never heard of domestic violence in our family... so my point is... no its not culturally acceptable as muslims to beat your spouse! anyone who tells you otherwise has erred.

as a matter of fact, most domestic violence occurs due to alcohol related incidents. and since muslims do not drink alcohol, i wouldnt be surprised if the stats showed that domestic violence was more prelavent in western culture than in middle eastern ones.

I don't know how I feel about such things...

I don't condone beating of women, but I’m not sure it's my place to judge someone who would.

Sadly women got the short end of the stick in religion and you all know how un-compromising theism is.

That’s the "problem" with faith is it can't be reasoned with and can't be changed.

Maybe not a "problem" maybe those are just the cards that god has dealt.

Once again I’m not equipped with divinity or any such thing so who am I to say that the place of women according to religious texts is unsound.

However my personal opinion is to give women the opportunities afforded to men.

I also believe in double standards
I also think its a great thing when a woman chooses to stay home with the children and raise them rather than just let them grow up.

I think jorgelito has it right. Turn on FX and watch cops, half that show is full of AMERICANS beating their wives.