Cynthetiq

following Icelandic tradition the woman does not take the mans name but keeps her FATHERS name.

Icelandic Names

Most Icelanders still follow the age old tradition
of using the first name of their father as the basis for their last name.
"Sonur" is added to the fathers name if the child is a boy, and
"dóttir" if the child is female.
Family names as such are not commonly used in Iceland,
and the question "Do you know Eiríksson?"
is really meaningless, as the definition is missing.

In the example below, the siblings are the children of Jóhann Már,
so the last names are Jóhannsson and Jóhannsdóttir, respectively.

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Kitenn Kaboodle

I took my husbands last name.. Both times I was married. This time I'm hoping to keep this one.

I didn't feel obligated in anyway, I just felt it was right for me. I don't think a name really makes you who you are, but it sure makes paperwork a lot easier when you have the same name. Man that sounds unromantic. I love my husband to pieces and love having his last name, too bad the rest of his family does too ..

la petite moi

My mother kept her maiden name because of "feminist" reasons, as she says, but I think it's because my father's last name is 'Berger.' How awful.

Anyway, it was difficult for me, with my father's last name, to explain to other young children at school that my mother and my father were not divorced, or anything like that. Plus my friends always say: 'Hello, Mrs Berger' instead of 'Ms Lattimore.'

Oh yeah, she always kept the title of Ms, instead of Mrs.

My mother liked emasculation. She made Bambi a girl and Frosty a snowwoman. Also, in books, she made mama birds into daddy birds...and the like.

The strangest thing about all this is that my father works, and my mother stays home still. She hasn't held a job in 17 years.

lurkette

I don't think you have to have a career or even a job to be a "good" feminist - the issue is not that women should work, but that women should be just as free as men to work, if that's what they choose, and men should be just as free as women to stay home, if that's what they choose. There's a difference between staying home because your want to and staying home because you're a woman and "that's just what women do."

It's not an issue of what individuals do, it's an issue of what society trains us to think of as "men's" roles and "women's" roles.

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little_tippler

I don't much consider whether it is a sexist thing or not. Personally I would like to keep my name because I'm an only daughter and otherwise the name would be lost, in that line. On the other hand I would like to take the name of my husband too. Then I think of children. Selfishly I woud like them to have my name. But then he probably would like that too. The hyphenated names just sounds like a chore (too right about hyphenated mae people marrying each other, what a mess). Choosing a new name would be like messing with history for me. Seems a bit careless. In my country you can have both parents names, with no hyphen, and that's considered your surname, even if it is 2 words. I think that's what I'll do for my kids, and then if they get married it's their choice which names to keep and which to suppress. As for keeping my maiden name when I get married, I think it will have to depend mainly on my career. If it's important to my professional life to keep my maiden name I will. If it's not so essential, then I will add to my name my husband's name. As for him, of course it's also his choice to take my name into his, or not. Seeing as this problem probably doesn't cross most guys' minds, I doubt he will, it's just not a habit.

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

xepherys

Hmmm... I'm very pleased that my wife took my name. Her mother never took her father's name, but rather kept her maiden name. Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing either way. In my own marriage, I would be mildly upset if my wife had not taken my name. I guess my reasons stem around tradition (not that I'm a huge traditionalist), social brainwashing (it's just how things are done, right?) and personal preference.

If you do NOT have the same last name, then what happens if you have a child? Giving the child the father's last name is traditional for most cultures throughout history, but if the wife kept her name so as to not "end the line" of her family, that would be counter-productive. If the child takes the wife's name, then there are other social issues that come up if it's found out. Especially as a younger child in primary school, anything that makes you different gets you ostrocized. If you hyphenate the name things can get odd as well, besides the name just being too damned long (unless the couples names are short).

I think that dumping both names and creating something new is interesting, but more of a fad than anything else. It really can be quit offensive to both extended familes, and the family name is sure to cease if the man is the last remaining son in the family (as would have been my case).

On a psuedo-note, my son has my ex's last name as we never got married. This was a point of some contention as well, but I came to be comfortable with her decision and am pleased that after she got married, our son kept her maiden family name. It's maybe unusual, but I'm glad it worked out that way.

doncalypso

Aren't there some cultures where the married couple takes on the woman's family name? After all, it would make sense if the children took the mother's family name because even if it is not sure who the father is there is no confusion as to who the mother is.

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quadro2000

My fiancee is going to be taking my last name, but I think it's more just because she likes it. I don't know why, but I really like the idea of her taking my last name. It's a tradition thing, I guess, but I don't know, it's something that really appeals to me.

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Cynthetiq

I'm glad for you and a bit jealous. I do wish that Skogafoss would have taken my name. I find it the equivalent of the girls "dream wedding day".

From the first time I saw it printed on a generic envelope... Mr. & Mrs. Cyn Thetiq.

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Redgirl

When primal and I got married I never really considered not taking his last name because it was easier than my maiden name for people to spell and pronounce. But then he told me wouldn't wear a wedding ring. He broke his ring finger years ago and it's kind of deformed, so he said a ring would make it hurt. I thought he should wear one anyway, so I said I wasn't going to change my last name if he wouldn't wear the ring. Several arguments later, my name is his and he's wearing that damn ring.

I think a family should all have the same last name to show solidarity. But making up a new one would also solve that problem, I just know primal would have never gone for it.

I had a professor in college who put her and her husbands' name together and made a new one that their whole family used. I thought that was pretty cool. Generally you don't find guys that progressive (except on TFP!).

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combatmedicjen

When xepherys and I got married, there was no question that I would take his last name. However, figuring out the rest of my name was interesting. Should I keep my maiden name in my name, giving me two middle names? Should I hypehate my last name?

In the end, I simply swapped out my last name for his, since my middle name was also a very important family name. I have two brothers to carry on my father's name, and I personally think that it is very romantic to take your husband's name. Plus, now people can spell my last name! Although I did go from first alphabetically to last... which sucks for random urinalyses at work...

I guess it's all personal preference. As long as you're both happy, a name is just a name.

la petite moi

Except my mother would ALWAYS present women as being the bread winners, and would tell us not to stay home if we got married because that would mean we were letting men walk all over us. She complained about how women should be employed and equal to men.

Great_White

I dont know, call it trite or something, but I am the only male child of my bloodline. So i kind of feel some sort of duty to have children that continue my family name. I mean I know deep down that it doesnt really matter, but I still feel that need.

jayel

Trying to come up with a solution to this! Tonight I typed 'Sexist wedding traditions' into the search engine, and found this site. I don't really like my last name, and his is really lovely. But ,I don't want to abondon my last name to take his. I would be happy to hyphenate, but then I don't think it's fair that I have to hyphenate and he doesn't. Then again , I wouldn't expect him to demand that I change my last name, so I can't demand that he change his. But it's still not fair, because I'm taking his name so we can have that in common, but he's not taking anything of mine. The whole thing is very sexist, stemming, I believe from the idea that after a woman is married, she is the man's property. Like the father 'giving' the bride away. I won't be doing that either. For those of you who think that it is God's plan that a woman take a man's name, that is no where to be found in the Bible. And if you believe it because someone else "Told you so", I suggest you do some scripture study of your own. Biblical views of women have been misconstrued for years, and I am just now learning the true origins (Greek) of the translations we have now. Please, let's keep thinking about this everyone, I need a solution or I'll never be ready to sign my marriage license!

Prince

I don't think it's necessary to have any set rules for this. If a married couple's equality is at stake if one takes the other's last name, then which name to go with is not necessarily the couple's biggest problem.

Just do what feels good and right to you. I didn't try and pressure my wife into anything. I said I'd be perfectly content with whatever she chose - whether she decided to take my name or hang on to her maiden name. Or even pick a totally new one.

What I wouldn't do, though, is change my name. For one thing, I like my last name, and in all honesty I am quite proud of it. If it was good enough for my father, grandfather, greatgrandfather, and his father before him, then it's good enough for me. I come from a small country where you could almost tell what part of the country, or even which city a man was from based simply on his last name.

She chose to take my name, and I am actually glad that she did. While I would have been fine with whatever she chose, I do feel that if you're my wife, you take my name, as will any children we may have. That is essentially how I feel about it, and if not being able to justify that outlook according to all sorts of anti-sexist rules and guidelines means I am a prick, then fine, I'll be a prick. I can live with that.

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alicat

I find this topic very interesting. Some people think that names are arbitrary and really not all that meaningful, yet look at how much discussion this thread has generated. From the time I had my first crush I would practice writing "Mr. and Mrs. Homer D. Poe" over and over again in my notebooks. I always wanted to get married and never questioned that I would one day take my husbands name.

When we did get married, I took his name although I did feel some pangs at losing my maiden name because my parents only had two girls. I found it an interesting experience having a new name and getting used to that transition in my life.

I never even entertained the idea of hyphenating our names because they are both very similar with just two consonents different so it would have been something like "Mrs. Ali Swoon-Broom" (Edit: O'kay so three consonents are different in that example but you get the idea!)

My younger sister just got married (in a cool ceremony on the beach of Lake Michigan) and they've done something I've never heard of before. She kept her maiden name as a middle name and took his as her last, no hyphenating. Not to unusual, but, he also took her maiden name as a middle name. I never thought of keeping my maiden name as a middle, however I already have two middle names and therefore would've ended up with five names. And there'd still be that Swoon-Broom thing.

I know a couple where they both took each others name and did the hyphen route. It's flows pretty funny because she's chinese and he's norweigen and the names couldn't be more different!

Ali

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meembo

I enjoy my name and Scottish heritage, so my name feels like a natural extension of myself, and I'll always keep it.

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abaya

So, I'm resurrecting this thread because ktspktsp and I may be getting married soon, and I have been unable to resolve this issue for myself...

First of all, ktspktsp says I can choose whichever name I want, which is nice of him (I wouldn't be marrying someone who was forcing me to change my name to his). However, I don't think he wants to change his own name after we marry. So I guess if I change my name, then I'll be changing part of my identity and he won't. I'm not sure how I feel about that... I'd like for both of us to be changing something fundamental about the way we identify ourselves, because marriage is just one of those major life-deals that deserves a change. I'm just not sure if changing names is required.

However, let's say I follow tradition and change my last name to his. My name has always been rather difficult to spell and pronounce for most people, and it's also a bit messed up culturally, so in some senses I wouldn't mind changing it. My father was Icelandic, and as Cyn explained earlier, I should have taken his first name (followed by the addition "-dottir") as my last name if I was born in Iceland.

However, instead my mother made that father-dottir combo into my middle name, and she and I both have my father's last name as our own (she changed hers). So my last name is the same as my father's last name, which is HIS father's name followed by "-son"... so here is my whole name: my first name (taken from my Icelandic grandmother), my middle name (daughter of my Icelandic father), and my last name (son of my Icelandic grandfather). That's a whole lot of Icelandic naming going on.

Basically, my current middle name SHOULD have been my last name, if I had been born in Iceland. As a matter of tradition, Icelandic women NEVER change their last names after marriage; there ARE no family names there, just the first name of your father... and some people use their mother's first name, these days. So, if I take ktspktsp's last name and keep my proper Icelandic middle name (father's -dottir), then it will basically be like I kept my proper maiden name as a middle name, no harm done. Not to mention ktspktsp's name is easier to spell and pronounce and is higher in the alphabet.

I also feel like since we are merging our lives, I want to give up part of my Icelandic name and take his Lebanese name, to signify that we are sharing those cultures with each other and with our children. But then his whole name is still Lebanese. Not sure what to do there... we'll have to talk about it.

Also, I *am* somewhat attached to my maiden name, though, as messed up as it is! It's what I got for being born in America, and it's what I've been known as for my whole life. When I was teaching, my students made all kinds of nicknames for me based on my last name, which I loved. But I no longer teach, and I haven't published anything significant yet (I'm a PhD student), so changing my name this year is not going to harm anything professionally. But it does change my heretofore American identity... since I am not really culturally Icelandic, and my name reflects my mixed-up upbringing... which I take great pride in.

So, basically I am leaning towards taking his last name and keeping my middle name (since it's technically my Icelandic last name, anyway)... though maybe I should throw in a Thai name somewhere? But I'd like to have suggestions for how the man can reflect the change in his life after marriage. I kinda like what both lurkette and redgirl said about having their husbands sacrifice something else, even if it wasn't their own name, in order for the women to take the husbands' name. Has anyone else had experience with that?

Thanks for reading my convoluted name story.

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snowy

I'm planning on being (First Name) (Middle Name) (Maiden Name) (Married Name). Trust me, it's a mouthful. I'll be Ms. (Married Name). Quite honestly, it will be an improvement over certain teachers addressing me as Ms. (Maiden Name) because they were singling me out (the beauty of having a principal for a father). And I don't know that I would want to keep my father's name as the name I use professionally, given that he is a very well-known educator in the state I want to teach in, and I'd like to earn something on my own merits. Besides, I have no concerns about passing on my dad's family name given that I'm the ONLY girl on that side of the family . My uncle had three sons, his eldest son has a son, and my aunt had a son. Either way, there's plenty of (Maiden Name)s and (Married Name)s out there. I really don't think my last name is all that special, especially given it's one of the many forms of "son of John" out there.

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abaya

Owl, I considered that arrangement but it seemed even more convoluted than what I currently have (since I have two mismatched Icelandic last names).

So you are taking your man's last name, but keeping both your middle and maiden names. Which name do you put down when a form asks for your middle name? Which name when they ask for your last name? Those are the confusing parts for me.

Also, I forgot to mention that I'm an only child... so yeah, the name stops with me, but then again, it only started with me in the first place since Icelanders don't have family names. So I guess it's no big loss, in that sense.

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snowy

I'm probably going to have my maiden name legally changed to a middle name, so then my middle name would be my original middle name (which is very short and sweet) plus my maiden name (which isn't much either).

All told though I'm going to end up with 8 syllables and 25 letters over four names!

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abaya

Hee hee, yeah, see I already have 10 syllables in my current name (3 in first, 4 in second, 3 in last) and 26 letters... and ktspktsp's last name ony has 2 syllables and 6 letters... so you tell me what's more economical!

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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ClostGoth

I was born with (first name) (middle name) (father's last name). When my parents divorced I took my mom's maiden name (first name) (middle name) (mom's maiden name). When I married I became (first name) (mom's maiden name) (mojodragon's last name). The really odd thing about that is that people still call me by my original middle name, even though it's no longer a legal part of my name. Even though it's traditional to lose your maiden middle name and take your maiden last name as your middle when you marry, it's confusing as anything. So I'm thinking about changing my name to (first name) (middle name) (mojodragon's last name). It makes more sense that way to me.

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ShaniFaye

I've kept my middle name both times I've been married. Who would want to get rid of a great name like Faye!!!

Anything other than traditional makes it hell for genealogist like myself

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Grasshopper Green

I never considered this to be an issue and honestly can't understand the fuss around it. I always knew I'd get married and take my husband's name...and I did. I had no attachment to my maiden name, and I rather like his last name (it's pretty unique), and even though I'm not religious or believe in "traditional" women's roles...I don't mind adhering to this particular tradition. I guess this is one of those "whatever floats your boat" kind of situations.

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ryfo

My wife took my name and says she likes it better than her maiden name.
She has the attitude she is she no matter who or what she is called. As there are only the two of us(she is not close to her family, I have no siblings or father) is sort of nice to be in a little family all of our own and be known as the Bennett family.

Xazy

My wife took my name, hopefully by the 3rd anniversary she will actually change her drivers license, passport, etc... And at her next job, maybe even go by our last name...

lol

Charlatan

As I said above, my wife kept her last name and our two children have her last name as well...

It isn't complicated. I don't see why it would be. Occasionally, I have to explain that my last name is different from theirs. This takes no more time than is does for someone with a complitcated last name to explain the spelling of their name.

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connyosis

Getting married in August and my fiancee is taking my name, simply because she wants to. Personally I couldn't care less if she took my lastname or not. I would be a bit reluctant to changing my last name since it is a part of me, and I guess that's why I would never demand that she took my name unless she absolutely wanted to.

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tecoyah

My wife and I discussed this before getting married, and mutually decided it really wasnt a big deal. Truth is, if it wasnt for the fact she dislikes Hyphens.....we could have used both for all I care.

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Kadath

Well, I've already got a hypenated last name, and I'm sick of it, so we're making up a new name. I just can't bring myself to take her name, and we don't want to deal with the hassle of having two different last names. I'm excited about not having to deal with a hypenated last name anymore; it's impossible for stupid people and computer systems to understand.

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fyrehair

I've never really looked at this as much of a big deal. I had always hoped that I would find a man that I loved with a easy to spell name...lol. (I have a Polish last name, so you can imagine....) But alas, I've fallen in love with a man with a German last name with MORE letters in his last name than mine (He has 12 letters to be exact).

He actually has his mother's maiden name. When he was born, he was the only male child and his mom was worried that no one would be able to carry on the family name.

I'll be taking his last name when we get married..lol. I love him, long last name and all.

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SecretMethod70

ooooh, I remember this thread A year and a half and my opinion hasn't changed.

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ngdawg

This was an argument for us. I wanted to keep my birth name-he was insisting I take his. He won the argument, I had to change all my documents and now when I go to renew my driver's license, each time I have to bring a copy of my marriage license-does he? No.
My parents gave me my name. In essence I went from their daughter with their choice of name to his wife with his last name (which, by the way kind of rhymes with my first name, so it always sounded funny to me and I've been teased by friends about it).
In my heart, I've always been L.A.K...to the world, I'm L.A.R.
There shouldn't be arguments about a name; had I had it to do over, it would be at least hyphenated.

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red0blivia

personally, i don't believe in the institution of marriage. it is an archaic ceremony based in the transfer of property (the bride) from the father to the husband - nothing more.
and it makes me want to vomit when i hear people exchange the more traditional vows "to honour and obey" (i bet you can guess what i am going to say about taking your partners name )
- even if this weren't true, i am not one for bringing the government into any of my relationships.
if i truelly love someone and plan to eternally cherish them - i can do so without a piece of paper and a minister/judge.
if i want to express my love for them and pledge my commitment to them in front of friends and family - i can still do so without a piece of paper and a minister/judge.

with one of my friends,... bout 8 yrs. ago, a small group of us gathered in the forest. the couple stripped their bodies of all binding material and held hands as they exchanged some beautiful words. then they turned and ran and jumped into the lake, holding hands.
it was the most meaningful and real union i have ever been to (unfortunately, i have been tortured to sit through many weddings) and i am certain their bond will outlast all those that i have witnessed come together.

all that said, i did get married.
i was young and in love and was not as aware of the history and the legal consequences and, consequently, didn't feel as strongly opposed to marriage as i do now.
i was never one of those little girls who played wedding and, in fact, never wanted to get married.
but my ex really wanted me to marry him, and it came down to weighing his desire against my feeling that it is just a piece of paper. since he felt more strongly about the matter, i gave into a small and casual wedding/party in his parent's living room and backyard. it was arguably, THE stupidest thing i have ever done... heh...
i totally would have kicked myself if i'd taken his name!!! but that is something that would have NEVER come to pass. i like my last name, but even if i didn't,... i have convictions.
he brought it up to me once. i told him it's not happening, but if he felt the need he could certainly take mine. he never brought it up again.
(i wouldn't have liked him to take my name either. i don't see it as any different)

i understand some people, in starting a new life together, want to do something symbolic to show their unity.
i think that can be very beautiful, but i don't think the female taking the males name, out of tradition, is (in any way) beautful or symbolic of unity.
it is not a fusion of two beings, but the absorption of one into the other. ughh....
many females these days "keep" their "maiden" name as their middle name and take their spouse's as their surname to try to alleviate some of that feelng of giving so much up. i don't see how that is any different. they are still trading in their identity for their partner's (and who pays attention to or even knows other's middle names - i rarely even care to know people's last names). i think they are just deluding themselves.
even if i was into getting married, i don't even know any guys (that i could love or even be attracted to) that would ever even consider making the last name an issue -- especially because it is based on bullshit tradition & especially especially because it is based on bullshit SEXIST tradition. (anyone who contends that the female taking the males name is not based in sexist tradition is in vital need of a history lesson)
intelligence, enlightenment, and egalitarian sentiments are all prerequisites for occupying the space between my legs..... not to mention, a place in my heart&mind.
BOTH PARTNERS hyphenating the names is an option. but if i were ever possessed to change my name in a show of union with another, i would probably pick something that represents both me and my mate, or our love for eachother, and change both of our names to that.

i think SecretMethod70's well thought-out and sobering post (#38) said it all... just had to put my 2 cents in there.

Cynthetiq

damn.. and the same for me, a year and a half later it still upsets me, not to the same degree, but it still does upset me.

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billege

I'd like to comment on some ideas presented.

It came from the ritualized property transfer, more or less, as you describe. However, for myself and my wife and plenty of other people too, that's the last thing it currently symbolizes. Debate that all you want, but it won't change its truth.

While your visceral response is impressive, there's nothing wrong with honoring one's spouse/life partner/what-have-you. I believe mutual respect is important. Perhaps it's your take on the meaning of the word "honor" that causes your gorge to rise.

"Obey" is an interesting word. I believe it was part of our vows, but I can't remember a time when I presumed to give my wife an order I expected her to obey; or vice versa. On that one, had we thought about it, it likely would have been replaced with another word. "Obey" does have connotations that are not in line with what marriage means to me. I'm with you on that one.

That is very true.
The piece of paper does not make a marriage.
However, some people choose to express thier commitment to share two lifetimes through the symbol of marriage. Of course, the symbol takes many forms.
Choosing to, or not to, express the life commitment through the state/traditionally recognized marriage is a personal choice.
Its value is set by those that make it, not those that observe it.

On the one hand, it's nice that your friends did what worked for them. That's the important part to what you're saying, what I'm saying, and this thread's question as well.

On the other hand:

You choose certain words (perhaps words I can call "flowery") to describe a forest ceremony where the partners "stripped their bodies of all binding material and held hands as they exchanged some beautiful words. then they turned and ran and jumped into the lake, holding hands."

To you (if I understood you clearly) that's more beautiful and meaningful than my traditional wedding simply by default.
In reality, how you and I view other's bonding ceremony is completely unimportant.
The people expressing thier bond forge its strength from within themselves.
Your or my opinion about the type of ceremony means very little in relation to how meaningful, real, or long lasting thier bond is.

I can say "two people met in the woods, stripped naked, then held hands and jumped in a lake" and go on believing that they are "hippies" "flakes" or any other derisive terms.
Just as you can say my wife and I are traditional morans who've succumbed to societies lies, etc etc.

Both those trains of thought are tiresome and unoriginal.

In reality though, things are much more clear and exciting.
The comittment a couple has is hardly decided by how they choose to express it. Be it a forest site or a church site, the level and depth depend on the couple's hearts and minds.

Your friend's forest wedding and mine do nothing to negate each other.
Yet, it would seem you believe a union is more meaningful and real depending on how far it veers from the traditional wedding ceremony.
That's a cheap fallacy, and I'm sure you know better.

There's a tendancy for those who have chosen alternative paths to mistakenly believe that those choosing traditional paths are somehow less enlightened, less "real," less meaningful, have thought about it less, are less informed, and generally just poor saps who don't know better.

While it's exciting to meet people like your friends, people who found thier own path, it's also important to learn there's no negation of one path by the other.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

opus123

When my wife and I got married, we asked what other people thought. Not many people had strong feelings about it. I felt then and today that last names are disappearing just as fast as languages and cultures. So Jen and I traded last names so that neither one of our last names would stop existing. That said, if my last name was Smith, I might consider taking her last name as mine would be pretty common.

When we went to the drivers license DMV, we changed our names and the 60 year old guy that worked there said that about 25 years ago, he did the same thing for another married couple. So it is not that common to do, but no one has ever told us it was stupid or foolish to trade last names. Most people say it is great or cool to have done it.

Some last names work really well hyphenated. Smith-Brown is not clunky and Love-Hewitt is fine. In Jay Leno's Tonight Show comedy skits, there are lots of funny hyphenated last names.

Jonathan

__________________
"We are sure to be losers when we quarrel with
ourselves. It is a civil war, and in all such
contentions, triumphs are defeats." Mr Colton
==================================

abaya

I take it you have brothers to carry on your name, then? That's a pretty cool idea, if so. I like hearing all these alternatives!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

opus123

Jen and I took out the three offending parts of the vows.

1. Obey was taken out. Most all people who do the weddings will graciously alter the text for you and they might slightly stumble through your new vows, but we chose a non-religious person to marry us and she did a good job reading our vows to us that we edited.

2. "To have and to hold from this day forward" is also part of the historical property tradition that you speak of. We took that out. We added some other loving things in it's place. I think we changed it to "To love, respect, and laugh with from this day forward." *smile*

3. Since my wife and I had an open relationship before we got married (we are both bi), we chose to remove the part "To forsake all others". I can't remember what we put in its place, but something about family.

Government does not legislate what is spoken at a wedding. Some religions won't allow you to edit the vows however.

All government and institutions of religion can be reformed to be better every generation. Rejecting 100% of something just because one part of it is rotten is like tossing out an apple just because of one small blemish on one side.

I personally favor goverment documenting weddings and unions because I am a fan of family tree and geneology searching. Without government archives, then I would have a very difficult time tracing my family tree and history. Some of the government archives have kept medical and social history on my family tree and saved it in fire proof buildings. (One is here in Seattle) Some of my family in generations past have had fires in their homes and lost all family tree info. Without the government saving that info for me, it would be lost permanently and long lost cousins would be reunited at our family reunions we have in the summer.

The census also helps in many ways by documenting how society is changing by documenting weddings, unions, and other data. Yes, sometimes government gets crazy about data gathering and wire tapping, but reform is a good option instead of rejecting it. Sometimes it take many generations for government to reform however. (^:

Jonathan

__________________
"We are sure to be losers when we quarrel with
ourselves. It is a civil war, and in all such
contentions, triumphs are defeats." Mr Colton
==================================