lurkette

I've been dealing with depression for about a year & a half now, and I find that I'm getting really frustrated with the recurrent self-loathing that I can't seem to conquer.

I compare myself to others, and always find myself lacking. I feel like if I'm not perfect I'm a loser, there's no in-between. I doubt other people's love for me, and feel unworthy. I know these thoughts are logical fallacies, but that only makes me feel weak-minded and stupid for having them in the first place. Catch-22. But these thoughts/feelings seem so TRUE...am I just keeping them in place for some reason I can't see?

How do you reach a realistic view of yourself? Why do I have so little compasion for myself? These feel like completely rhetorical questions.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

maleficent

First off, depression is a medical condition that is not always "all in your head, and you could be happy if you wanted to." Be sure that there's nothing physical (ie thyroid issues) that's causing the depression.

Now...

No one will ever be as hard on ourselves as we are. We tend to be our own worst enemies.

Stepping out of the dork closet -- but this is what's working for me on most days, I have a fishbowl in my bathroom (and I keep a handful in my suitcase) in this fishbowl I have a bunch of index cards that I have filled out, of what my good qualities are. It sounds egotistical, but I add to this fishbowl regularly. Every day, I fish out a card (and I've put my wonderful coloring skills and 64 pack crayons to good use for these cards) and post it somewhere where I can see it - generally in front of the coffee maker. I remind myself of this quality. I wrote the card, it must be true. Every day I remind myself of a different quality.

If I don't remind myself of what my good qualities are, and why people like me, then no one else will. If I do it myself, then I might just start to believe it.

Then the bigger obstacle. Banish the BUT... (edited to finish the thought) The BUT is what many of us do to detract from the good things. BUTs are nothing but trouble and we should really eliminate that word from the language because it's most always negative. Someone says something good, say thank you, hell, say I KNOW, because you do.

I'm going to pretend to be lurkette for a moment. Look in the mirror and say. "I'm a kind, warm, caring person PERIOD" "People like me for me PERIOD' No buts, you are not allowed to take away anything from the good thing that you said about yourself (Ok, that I said about you)

You do realize that if others compared themselves to you, they'd find themselves completely lacking as well. You have a loving relationship, good friends, a home. Why compare yourself to someone else? The grass is not always greener you know...

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denim

That was a wonderful answer, Maleficent, but I'm quoting this part specifically 'cause that's what I wanna comment on.

I've been jealous of your boyfriend for a while now, Lurkette. Don't think he's the only one who thinks you're a good person. It occurred to me a few weeks ago, for instance, that the people who dislike me don't take the time to get to know me. And those who do take the time say the same things. They can't all be full of shit.

To repeat: Lurkette, if you've been down this long, definitely see a doctor about it. It's probably a chemical problem. As said in another post you've probably read on a totally different topic, but which fits here: a headache which lasts 15 months is a problem. See a doctor.

Derwood

Therapy

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Kazic

I am fighting a Depression myself. I have made some decisions and changes that I thought I could deal with but turns out I am my own worst nightmare.
I can't seem to shake this unbearable pain and guilt. And the only thing constant is that I did it all.
I can't sleep or think of much else besides what I have done. I was going to therapy but I can't seem to stay focused on anything to keep going. I was going to start taking meds but when I go to pick them up I think that maybe its all in my head and I can beat this. But I can't!
I feel really isolated. I am usually a very outgoing funny guy but right now all i can do is worry and feel this pain recurr in me day in and out. I am not looking for help as I know some words of wisdom aren't what I need I just like to write it seems to subside the feelings for a while.

__________________
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man
affected us as kids,we'd all be running around in
darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening
to repetitive electronic music."
-Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

lurkette

That's the joke - I've been in cognitive therapy and on Paxil for a year, and I'm still fighting the self-loathing. Maybe I just need to accept that sometimes I'm going to go through this, and it'll just take its course. Sucks to be in the middle of it, though.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

denim

Perhaps Paxil isn't the right answer, you ever think of that? There are many others, if that's what's needed.

maleficent

Every so often, a books cover will catch my eye, and I'll want to read the book. A few years ago, I came across this book, that had such beautiful cover art that I wanted to read the book. It was an inspirational book by a Mexican shamanic teacher and healer that provides a simple code of conduct for attaining personal freedom and true happiness. THe author is don Miguel Ruiz, the book is The Four Agreements.

The agreements are
1. Be impeccible with your words
2. Don't take anything personally (I'm still working on that one)
3. Don't make assumptions
4. Always do your best.

If you can find it in your local library, it's a quick a quick read, and one of most wonderful things about this book, that with the four agreements, if you apply them, and remember what's in the book, then you become free to love yourself.

--------------
Maybe this is too personal to ask in this forum, however, are you getting any results at all from the year of therapy and medication? Because after a year, if you aren't seeing a result, maybe something different should be tried. I'd be pretty frustrated.

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LordEden

IMHO Fuck Therapy.
I've had more shrinks and doctors all through my life than I can count on my hands. I've taken all kinds of different medications for my depression and none of them worked (without making me a zombie). It's really something only the person can get past. I've been battling with my own hatred of myself for years now and I've learned that only through self-control and self-enlightment that a person can break through these thoughts. I liked maleficent's idea of a fishbowl, that's a really good idea. It's really hard, just getting past the physical and mental image you have of your self. I really do feel for ya lurkette, and I hope you beat this demon.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Jesus Pimp

Yeah medication and therapy don't work. You just got to keep yourself busy. Find new hobbies and interests, go out and meet new people, go on a vacation you never been before, start working out etc.. The more time you have to think about your fallacies the more they will govern your life.

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Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

iamnormal

I know how you feel. Have no clue to help.

sexymama

Lurkette -- I am pro therapy here. I just think you should shop around for the right therapist. Also, for the right medicine. You are a person worthy of love -- including your own love. Keep striving and you will find it. I love you -- Sexymama

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

denim

Yes, it may be time to, at the least, find a different therapist.

denim

Careful. Those things didn't for you. Some people do benefit from one, the other, or both.

powerclown

The people benefitting the MOST from drugs and therapy are the pharmecutical companies and the shrinks. If people stopped being depressed and started feeling better, both would be out of business tomorrow. Depressed people help feed these peoples' families, send their kids to college, pay their mortgage, finance their vacations, put gas in their BMWs. There is no incentive for them to help people get better for good.

My advice would be to do more of the things in life that 1) make you happy, and 2) make others important to you happy. Only you know what these things are.

*Nikki*

I compare myself to other women all the time. A lot of times I think I come up short and sometimes I think I blow them away. I think this is something that a lot of woman do.
There will always be someone better. You can't escape that. What you have to do is start liking yourself. The more you put yourself down the more you will always fall short of what you believe others to be. There is no winning in a situation like that. You will just keep going in circles as you seem to be.

What I did was make myself really good at one thing. That one thing is what I can always say, "Hey I am really good at this" and mean it. Starting with one thing gets you on the way to finding many things you are great at.

I think you are great at giving advice myself. There are many times when I have read advice that you have given to people her on the board and I was really impressed. You can tell that you really care. You don't realize how special of a gift that is. Not everyone has it in them to do that....hell....half the time I really suck at it so I don't even speak up.

All I can tell you in to concentrate on those good points. I see many in you and I don't even really know you

jay-g

There are always gonna be someone with a better house, car, makes more money, body, hair, face, etc. If you spend time on, short changing yourself, because you dont have this look or that, your gonna go insane. Lets say you have a perfect ideal girl in your mind. You never know. She could be having esteem issues, because she doenst have this or that, just like you. Its like a never ending chain. There is always someone who does or has something alittle better. Until the day the earth quits turning, thats never gonna change. Be happy with yourself, whether it comes from, your husband, friends, or within yourself. You have a loving family, husband, friends, and your making it on your own (i know you have heard this before). Plus, somehow, i saw you naked, and you have nothing to be insecure or worried about.

denim

Telling people to just snap out of it shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation.

irseg

Agreed 100%. Find something you like to do, and do it. For me, that's computer programming. I enjoy it, it's a challenge, and it feels good to see the finished product in action. Pursuing an interest, accomplishing a goal, and just generally feeling useful and productive is the best antidepressant there is.

A friend of mine was on Zoloft for a while. That was some weird stuff. It pretty much disabled her ability to express emotion, so everything she said--whether it was dead serious or joking around--sounded very deadpan and distant. She said that getting off that stuff was a very positive change, once she got used to feeling emotions again. Those kinds of drugs should only be used as an absolute last resort.

irseg

Your point? Why would anyone pay tens of thousands of dollars and work their asses off for years to get through med school if there wasn't any kind of benefit?

And it's funny how "funding research & development for future medications" isn't in your list. What do you think happens to revenue from drug sales? Do you think it gets shoveled into a big room where some CEO rolls around in it and uses $100 bills to light cigars? Money from antidepressant sales might very well fund the cure for Alzheimers or cancer, just like other drug sales have funded antidepressants.

I do think that antidepressants are overprescribed, but the bottom line is that they do help correct chemical imbalances in some people that therapy alone cannot.

It irks me to no end to see people bitching about companies selling a product and making a profit, but ignoring the fact that THIS IS WHAT LEADS TO INNOVATION AND SAVES LIVES. How many medical advances come out of North Korea?

powerclown

Where in my comment, or even in the spirit of my comment, did I mention for her to just 'snap out of it'? I agree with you that telling someone to just snap out of it is next to meaningless. The gist of what I was saying was that shrinks prey on the weak. I mean sometimes are unhelpful.

There is a benefit, benefits: A large bank account. Multiple homes. Expensive cars. Private schools. Fur coats, diamond rings, plasma TVs.

The CEO, the CFO, the CTO, the CIA, FBI, CTC, DWI. They also snort coke and crank off their mistresses' tits with those $100s.

What pisses me off about pharmecutical companies is that theres a new goddamn anti-depressant medication out on the market every 6 months, along with a shiny new hundred-million dollar advertising campaign telling people with real goddamn problems why its best to use their latest synthetic poisons. Zoloft, Prozac, Tofranil, Elavil, Adapin, Effexor, Norpramin, Sinequan, Remeron, Wellbutrin, Paxil, Paxil TR. Why 20 different brands of the same fucking thing? As most people who take this stuff know, what it all does best is numb your brain, emotion, life-force, to where you just don't have the energy or give a shit about being depressed in the first place. Not to mention the inevitable physical and/or psychological addiction, which is great for business, by the way. And the same bleating caveat, on all the meds: "This medication effects the blahblahblah in your brain which MAY (or may not) have an effect on your central nervous sytem blah blah, which may be the underlying cause for depression. Basically, we don't know what the fuck causes depression, but take this and dont worry about it."

I stand by what I said about trying to weed out all the BS and to do in life whatever it is that makes oneself, and others important to oneself, happy. Substitute a more sophisticated word for 'happy' if you want: enlightened, contented, nourished, fulfilled, focused.

OP, I meant no harm in my comments and wish you strength.
/drama

Spidey

a year long period for depression is damn tough and for one thing you should really be glad that you have made it this far. depression isn't something that can be taken away at the snap of a finger so here is a few things that might help.

Firstly taking those pills for depression doesn't really help, it just makes you completely disable like all feeling has been sucked out of you so that isn't really a great step.
Secondly take up a hobbie and do something you are good at, such as a sport or something. set goals with these hobbies and try to conquer them. The thing that boosts a person's personal moral is to achieve something that you set your goals on. when you successfully and regularly achieve personal goals it will help improve your confidence and your own personal attitude.
Its easy for me to blabble on about what you can do, but think of it this way you can sit here and have thoughts plaguing your mind or achieve something with yourself.

I wish you the best of luck, depression is one of the hardest obstacles in life and once you gain that mental edge you'll come out a strong person.

let us know how things are going. And just think back to what you have done in the past and how highly people value you. like the old cliche says, action speak louder than words. Just look at the people you are surrounded with and how they treat you, they obviously wouldn't treat you with the loving care and respect if you weren't lovable. Sometimes you need to stop and think about things like that. In this day and age we don't stop and really appreciate what we have so attempt to do so.

so about the long read, but depression is one tough cookie to break and i've seen many people overcome their depression to come out a better people. I KNOW you will be one of them

Peetster

There is a lot of good advice up there, and I hope you take some of it to heart.

Let me add that you are far harder on yourself than anyone around you.

Talk to a professional or two. You nead to learn that you're pretty neat.

denim

The gist of what I quoted seemed to be "just snap out of it". Telling someone to do things that make them happy, when they're having problems being happy, is pretty much the same thing, whether you realize it or not. One major symptom of depression is that things you used to enjoy no longer get you going. So the suggestion to just do them is the same as "just snap out of it." I guess you weren't aware of that. Ah well.

denim

That's just it: they're not the same fucking thing. Have you looked at the piece of paper which comes with them? They may have certain attributes in common among different general kinds of med, but they work very differently and some people using one of one type don't get the same benefit if they use another of the same type.

You should turn in your MD.

Yakk

You possibly need a healthy dose of contempt.

Not for you, but for humanity in general. Really, if you get right down to it, the average person is a pretty sad being.

You won't be the best person in the world, but you will be far above average at things you actually work at. So long as you work at being good at things most people don't work at being good at. . .

It is a tricky balance. You want to compare yourself with your peers, but at the same time you don't want to compare yourself to the best of all of your peers. You will never ever be better at everything than everyone you know of. It is made worse by the media: you are exposed to genius, beauty, people who spend their entire lives perfecting one small facet of themselves. If you attempt to compete with all of them, or even try to keep up, you will not be able to.

Look at your husband, your girlfriend, your siblings, and see them love you. Realize you are very good at some things, and those are the things that matter. If something else matters, you can put in the effort and make yourself good at it, or learn to care less about it.

The change medication/therapists is probably also a good idea. ;-)

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

gondath

Let me sum up the problem. Value is external. People are not great. For whatever reason, you simply see them that way. Other people have differing views about what makes an important, interesting, or talented person. You have the power to decide who ranks as what in your own eyes. Start by giving yourself a top rank. Then everyone else can fall into their proper places.

denim

To summarize the summary: don't be such a perfectionist. NO ONE can do that and think well of themselves.

mystmarimatt

Maleficent hit the nail on the head. I try to keep this in my mind whenever i feel depressed, which i do quite often.

Is it good to be thinking on how other folks dislike themselves/are unhappy as me and to take comfort in that?

Hmm.... Probably not.

Does it work as a happy-making mechanism?

Like buttah.

__________________
Words of Wisdom:

If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane.

lurkette

Thanks everyone for the good advice. Part of the problem is that when you're down, you just don't see the way out even when there's a ladder right the fuck in front of your nose

A couple of things -
1. Perspective helps, and I often lack that. Spent a few minutes in Grace Cathedral yesterday, and there's something about being in that space that makes me feel simultaneously really peaceful and connected to my "higher self", and really small and like my problems are not so big when you really think about it.
2. I will be monkeying with my meds under a doctor's supervision - upping the dosage on the Paxil. Sorry this thread turned into an "evils of medication" battle. My guess would be that most of the people quietly judging me for being on meds have either never been so depressed that they needed meds, or have tried meds and they didn't work. They're not a magic bullet, they're supposed to take the edge off so you can find the damn ladder. For me, for a long time the Paxil kept the self-loathing at bay so I could work on the cognitive behavior therapy. I stopped being vigilant about that, and I also had a few things happen in my life that made things a lot more stressful - my grandfather died, my brother died, I started a polyamorous relationship, etc. I just might need a little more time - and a little more chemical bolstering - before I'm ready to stand on my own two feet, mentally speaking.
3. I'll be going back to exercising regularly so I can regulate my own neurochemistry and eventually get OFF the Paxil. I know what is effective, I'm just not doing it.
4. Sometimes I just need to wait for the black mood to pass. Maybe I'm always going to have these automatic self-loathing impulses (like this afternoon when one of my perfectionist bosses implicitly criticized me) but I don't have to give in to them, and if I do, the resultant mood is not necessarily permanent.
5. I'm really lucky to have so many people who care about me. Thanks to all of you

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

maleficent

That's why you have assistance - whether it be friends, therapy, medication, to point you in the direction of the ladder, eventually you'll find it yourself, in the meantime, use what support is available for you.

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:::OshnSoul:::

Read my last journal entry, theories 1.0.
It may be kind of confusing, I was typing off the top of my head.

Perfection and expectations play a big part here. There is really no true meaning of perfect, as we ALL are different, yet all the same underneath it all. Learn to accept yourself and different, yet the same- not better or worse than.....You really do have control over your life, now's the time to see your thoughts for what they are, but dig out the feelings behind the thoughts and ask why you feel that way. Keep digging for feelings behing the feelings. For example "I hate myself" ask "why do I feel that way?"- can maybe lead to "because I can't do anything right"- well, agian, "why do i feel that way?"...and so on and so on. That is such an effective step to help you realize what's going on and then you can assess the issues by consciously making an effort to change your thought process. Try it sometime.

mr sticky

Lurkette...depression, as I'm sure you know, is a cycle. It's a syndrome of self-loathing, shame, and guilt. It comes from within by being the world's worst self critic.

No amount of outside praise will lift it. No amount of positive reinforcement will alleviate its grip on you. It's unbearable and crushing, and unless you break its hold, it can destroy everything you value. It's taint seems to permeate even the happiest of occasions and suck the joy out of life's finer moments.

That being said...IT CAN BE BEATEN! You'll find that the introspection that you use to unwittingly devalue yourself, can offer you insight as to the why and how that it's hold grips you.

Step Number One:

Find a Spiritual center. I mean this in a Eastern sort of way. Meditation is good. Breathe deeply and fully. Relax on the exhalation. Clear the mind. Relax the soul.
Find some info on Zen-type breathing techniques and start there. It's corny, but it works for a start.

Step Two:

Expand the spiritual part of yourself. You are an avowed agnostic. Which is fine. You're also very intelligent, which makes faith based religions hard to stomach. I personally find myself as a Christian with eastern proclivities. It's not a normal thing, but it works for me. This step is important because it places a large measurement perspective in your life. Depression breeds in you. You have to separate your perspective and see just how small those things are that you unwittingly obsess about.

Step Three:

This is a culmination of one and two and is a little hard to understand. Depressives live a little too tightly in their own skin. I want to expand your awareness in a very eastern way. As you're meditating, try to hear, feel, and focus your awareness as outside of your body that you can. Try to hear every little noise. Every little change in the wind. Every little nuance in the world around you. You'll find by expanding your awareness, living in the now, that it is very hard to feel depressed. It centers your "self" and changes the perspective of "self." Making your field of awareness encompass more than just you. Kind of giving you a break.

Practice these for a week. See how you feel. Then on to the more cognitive phase.

Step Four:

Realize that the ruler in which you measure yourself has been dictated by a marketing society. Your thoughts on marriage, your self image, and the things that make you up are have all been given a value by society. But not the real society. The marketing society. We learn soo much bullshit from TV, our peers, and our parents about how we're supposed to think, feel and react, that each time we think, feel , or react differently, we make a value judgment on ourselves. This is a crux of the depressive personality. The only problem with this knowledge is that you tend to judge yourself in the nanosecond before your cognitive kicks in and lets you know that it's all bullshit anyway.

Which leads to Mr Sticky's First Rule of Depression:

Emotion comes first.

Simple. I know, but powerful when you think on it. No matter what information you come in contact with. You emote first! There is ALWAYS feeling before thought, no matter how cognitive the information is. You have already been fucked before you can pull yourself out of the bad feeling nosedive. Sucks, don't it?

You'll have to eventually realize that since you start out with the negative feeling, it's damn hard to lose it, no matter how stupid it is. When caught here, do steps one through three.

Step Five:

The brain is lazy. Emotions, just like all mental processes, are on circuits. You don't reevaluate every experience each time. You add it to the already existing database. Your love for Ratbastid is dropped into this quick little file that slams through every time you see him. Both cognitive and emotive. I mean shit, sometimes you even have to remind yourself that you are mad at him sometimes. you know?

This hardwiring is one of the toughest things that you'll have to overcome. Exactly because it's hardwired. You're emoting these circuits first, and THEN YOU"RE TRYING NOT TO FEEL BAD? I mean shit, you're already there, Right?

Well, that's where the true work lies. You have to add to this emotional circuitry by forgiving yourself whatever ingrained bullshit you've been spoon fed and allow this feeling to add to that circuitry. This is a LONG process. You think how many years you've been kicking yourself and go from there. You have to separate that feeling (the breathing helps) and assign it a new lift of feeling. This is much like sorting through the loss of a loved one. At first, all you have is the pain and grief , but eventually the remembrance of the life and the love some what alleviates this, until at some point you can remember them happily. But of course this, most like anything else, takes time.

This is the crux of it. There's more, but this will do for now. Try these, please. Some of it seems hokey, shit, some of it IS hokey, but I swear it works.

We'll be thinking about you...

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The sad thing is... as you get older you come to realize that you don't so much pilot your life, as you just try to hold on, in a screaming, defiant ball of white-knuckle anxious fury

Cynthetiq

The koan that ends with "This too shall pass."

that applies to happiness and sadness. It applies to the full range of human emotions and such.

remember to just "be."

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

j8ear

Lot's of great advice and experience presented. I have little to add in that regard.

I'm of the 'fuck what everyone else thinks about me' school, but fwiw:

I think your a pretty righteous chick. Intelligent, insightful, tolerant, and critical yet positive. Plus your pretty daggone easy on the eyes, in your birthday suit or otherwise, if you don't mind me saying.

You always seem to be growing and learning, as we all should be, and frankly I have learned much from you, making you a teacher as well.

While I am unable to understand your depression and self-loathing, I wish you the best with getting a handle on it. I suspect one day it will just hit you. After all, your sharper then most

-bear

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It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

mystmarimatt

Yeah, Depression or no, Lurkette, you're cool, I always look forward to your insight, humor and intelligence. You can be my Betty any day.

__________________
Words of Wisdom:

If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane.

Johnny Rotten

I don't think anyone judges others for taking legitimately proscribed medication. The ubiquitousness of this activity really took off when Prozac came out. At this point, everyone is used to seeing others taking meds, or talking about meds. And there's the huge industry geared towards the huge Baby Boom generation, which will swallow more pills than Keith Richards at an unguarded pharmacy.

You may want to consider easing off on polyamory, since that system can cause a lot of cognitive dissonance as the intellect struggles to defeat cultural indoctrination.

I second the suggestion to get another medical opinion as to the drug therapy.

I also knew a guy in college who was able to defeat clinical depression with weed, after trying countless pharmaceuticals.

Best of luck .

__________________
"The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

isis

I've been feeling extremely down on myself lately as well.. and one thing that I find really works is just .. doing something differently. I recently got myself a new evening job, just for a few hours a day, and no matter how terrible I go into that job, I almost always come out smiling. Its a 'terrible customer service job'.. but it seems that the people who are consistently nice to me seem to help me through the hard times.

I'm sure our sadnesses aren't really about the same thing, and I know not all remedies work .. but I really hope that some of the things suggested aid you along a little bit.

Best of luck to you, dear, and I hope things work out better for you in the near future.

MojoRisin

Don't dismiss my view as pessimistic...

Drop the therapy, drop the medication and forget modern psychology. Depression is the result of a deep awareness of the fact that humanity is fucked up in general. We refuse to accept that we must suffer (more than we know) in order to live, and as a result we lose our ability to truely experience what is great (greater than we can imagine) in life. Humans try desperately to cover up pain and make things appear ok with optimistic bullshit i.e. idealistic philosophy, belief in god, the idea that love can save you, a new sports car etc.... And when we can't live up to these ideals we begin to hate ourselves for it because we think that somehow they will save us, well we shouldn't have to live up to them because they are just means of escape. Depression forces us out of the illusion of life and it encourages us to search. A sharp pain in the chest isn't your nervous system malfunctioning, its a fucking heart attack.



Our lives will never see relief of this pain, but we can have consolation in pursuing truth. Force yourself to live in this life, to love the world for everything it is, see that it is beautiful but beauty owes nothing to morality(the modern misconception of morality is a major issue in itself) Love yourself as part of the world, not as the person that the idealist majority want you to be. Not a movie star, or a rock star, or a glorified gangster, or a sports hero, or a 'good person', the majority won't understand who you are but you should take comfort in that as those who consider themselves part of the majority (the herd) don't know whats good for them or the world nor do they care, so long as they can occupy all of thier thoughts, time and effort into aspiring to thier ideals. This is a difficult habit to break and requires much strength but if you try perhaps you will see how much this is a problem. Of all the things in this life and world the soul's greatest aspiration is to create above and beyond itself. This is impossible if we refute the way we feel.

Now I'll give a brief rundown of my experience. I've had an anxiety disorder since I was 14 which subsided when I was about 18 only because it was replaced with depression. The life I was trying to live degenerated as a result. I was on paxil for about a year and a half and went to therapy for a bit, I did make some progress which was only me trying to force myself into being 'normal'. I'm 23 now and it wasn't until about 8 months ago when I started to get suicidal and decided to say to hell with all of it, fuck the meds and fuck the therapy, I would find my own answers or I would die. I've complete withdrawn from just about everyone in my life, I have no material ambtions, I work as little as possible and live with as little as I can. I read, I write, I play music, I draw, I create and most of the time I am in pain. But there is a difference in this pain, it is clear, it is understandable and it is my motivation, I don't hide from it and I don't wish it to leave unless it should. I no longer sit in my bed staring at the ceiling for hours hoping for a way out, I don't hate myself and I don't hate the people around me even though I can't let them get to close. I belong to myself and I am myself. There is great sense of relief in my art, a feeling of freedom as I know I am headed in the right direction. And with all the dreadful emotions that I feel I know that the joy of simply existing runs deeper.

I know I can't show you the way, and perhaps this isn't possible for everyone.Therapy and medication and a 'normal' life are enough for some, but I can still see the pain in thier eyes, I know whats underneath it all and I can see into them. I see life in a way I never would of expected. I don't know where I will be a month from now, but if my heart weren't assuring me that this way is the right path, if I weren't floating on air as I write this, I would gladly check myself into the nuthouse. But this is it, using modern methods of 'treatment' are inconcievable to me.

__________________
Dropping a barbell he points to the sky and says "The suns not yellow, It's chicken!"

wonderwench

I wonder how many of the people here with self-esteem / depression issues were raised Catholic. I was, and for years I suffered from "Catholic Damage" - the feeling of always being inadequate and guilty.

Fortunately, with effort and maturity I was able to get these feelings under control. What worked for me was:

- Reading. I recommend "The Noonday Demon" (on depression) and "The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem"

- Regular excercise.

- Setting achievable goals and realizing them. Building a pattern of small successes helped me move on to bigger challenges. Accomplishment is a great tonic.

- Talking. Having a couple of good friends with whom I could let off steam helped me put things in perspective. When one keeps it all bottled up inside, it's easy to magnify problems.

- Altering my way of thinking. I practised changing my mental reaction to having a dark mood. I would remind myself that it would pass and worked on not dwelling on it. Doing this shortened the depression spells considerably.

- Medication. I did use anti-depressants during a very horrible period of my life. They helped bridge me until I was able to get my footing back. I don't recommend this as a first resort - but if you are really feeling completely lost and overwhelmed, talking to your doctor would be a good step to take.