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Old 02-23-2011, 12:47 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Partnership for a Baby Free America

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Originally Posted by Matt Cale
Nadya Suleman must die. Not tomorrow, not six months from now, and certainly not in a time frame that would allow her to give birth to another child. Now. Ms. Suleman, mother of six, recently shat forth a litter of eight additional genetic inferiorities to her already teeming household, making it a total of fourteen wee ones without a known father, or working parent of any kind. Yes, as expected, Nadya is unemployed. Living off grants, welfare, parental support, and likely a great deal of back alley blowjobs, this vile, wicked beast — a woman more detrimental to the social fabric than a busload of desperate Al Qaeda – is, as her own family describes, “addicted to children.” If she’s not spreading for the next available assistant manager from Arby’s, Grease Monkey service tech, or Deep Rock delivery dope, she’s seducing the medical establishment into believing that she is the perfect candidate for IVF, the increasingly first, middle, and last resort for the baby-obsessed masses. How she paid for these treatments – and delivery – is currently unknown, but like so many of her ilk (and there is an ilk, even if her identity is still a mystery**), she finds a way for others to do her bidding.

And now, as if the perpetually pregnant young Nadya hadn’t already sufficiently warmed our hearts with a level of responsibility unseen even if the most dire of neighborhoods, she is asking for $2 million to tell her story. Oh, but it’s not for her, you see. Altruistic little darling that she is, the cash is intended to cover the costs of raising her blessed events, though one imagines the figure growing in the months to come as she begins to see luxuries as necessities, like so many who roar to the heavens about economic injustice, yet never fail to have budgeted for scratch tickets, cell phones, and fancy nails at the local salon. Weaves are optional.

Nadya is hardly alone, though. Is she not like that one young lass, tattooed eyebrows and all, who spent a good portion of your local news broadcast sobbing about the cut in food stamps, all while tickling her cursed beast mere feet from a laptop, HD television, and video game console? Or maybe she’s the crispy-haired sweetheart at the grocery store a few years back; you know, the one who held up the line for fifteen minutes using the state’s generosity to cover her brat’s formula, yet couldn’t help but buzz through the line at the lottery machine, where boyfriend du jour’s only delay was the difficulty in pulling a wad of drug-related $20 bills from his faded jeans?

Having babies, raising babies, and sending babies out into a suffocating globe of immense despair is bad enough – and sufficiently sinful to earn the enmity of the selflessly child-free (say “-less” and I’ll break your arm), but I’ll go one further: since asking the irresponsible multitude to stop breeding is wildly implausible – as is the preferred method of forced, painful sterilization – let’s start at the simple, realistic, reasonable square one and insist that at minimum, the poor and uneducated be forbidden from doing anything other than menial work for their betters. After all, we’re only overpopulated in the areas of the world least likely to have indoor plumbing, libraries, graffiti-free walls, and unbarred windows.

In fact, those with advanced degrees, vibrant intellects, and actual savings accounts are having fewer children these days, proving as conclusively as night follows day that starting a family is pretty much the exclusive domain of the carny, the ghetto rat, or the unemployed halfwit who sees non-procreating related effort as optional when it comes to putting food on the table. The social statistics bear this out, as does history, the novel, and mere casual observation. So if you are one of the chosen few who is educated, solvent, and not in the queue at bankruptcy court, and either with-child or already there, you do exist and deserve exemption, but I’ll leave it to your own conscience whether or not sharing a lifestyle with the unwashed is worth touting in mixed company.

Call it the human thing to do if you wish, or the biological imperative, but it’s unavoidable nonetheless: having kids – one or two or ten – is pretty much the trashiest thing you can do without actually exchanging crack for anal. Though you are not as bad or as dirty as Nadya, you live on the same street, and have more in common with her lot than any of the unburdened in your current social circle. If you happened to meet a child-free physicist, professor, and literary agent at a BBQ, and were then interrupted by a knuckle-dragging bingo babe with strollers, diaper bags, and formula in tow, you’d have a more lasting, empathetic conversation with the cretin. You’ll deny it, but tell yourself this the next time you “entertain” with your fellow parents. Try and go five minutes without mentioning how well your boy did in pre-school soccer. You know, how he managed to stay on the field this time, and only lose his shorts twice? Impossible? Indeed. Parents are a cult more damning than Jonestown. Remember, the creepy Satanists wanted Rosemary’s baby, not her subscription to the New York Review of Books.

But if you insist that living the dream can include kids and not make you psychotic, I’ll temporarily suspend judgment and send it back to the fertility nuts. All of you fuckers are mad, but madness can be measured, and its severity is certainly more present in the woman who already feeds her half-dozen crackers and Jarritos and seems unconcerned that eight more will worsen the diet. Baby worship can exist in many forms, but never more painfully than in the unsustainable notion that more is better. Yes, religion is to blame for most of this, as we’ve classified the most natural thing on earth “miraculous,” but it’s gone beyond the idea that Jesus sanctions each and every phallic dip in the vaginal pool. It’s everywhere, and it stands to reason that at some point, the predisposed will take it all to its (il)logical conclusion and infantilize the whole rotten enterprise.

The tide turned the first time an otherwise sane man appeared in public with a snugglie and didn’t backhand the shrewish hen who made him leave his nutsack bedside. It happened again when the first teacher entered the profession not out of a love of learning, but perverse need to be around children, further eroding a dying art and leaving it in the hands of glorified babysitters. And again when rational adults had to schedule fucking “date night” like zit-faced teenagers, all so they wouldn’t walk into traffic before breakfast. And yet again when the blue-noses and moral scolds upheld authoritarian means to spare the kiddies tits, sex, profanity, or even the hint that life wasn’t a backpack full of rainbows and granted wishes.

We’re a people in denial, and in too deep to care. We self-censor, repress, glorify, and sanctify, all at once, and never for the right reasons. We can land on the moon, find Saddam in a hole the size of a linen closet, and provide precise details on a star in a galaxy deemed theoretical, and we’re still dumbfounded as to how we can stop treating ourselves like farm animals. Where are the black-ops experts in the parenting realm, where shadows in the night break through, slip under, and dash around all the obstacles to steal away the Nadyas of the world, leaving them alive, yes, but mere husks of barrenness? Aren’t her sixteen buggers proof positive that mental illness has swept away the last vestiges of sweet sanity? What civilization not steeped in barbarism would ever suggest that it cannot decree a maximum? A limit? A last straw before we send in the medical instruments? In the end, the only hope is for the voices of clarity to speak with more authority than the bumbling class. Redefine and re-articulate; dispense with euphemism and be not afraid of attack.

A good start is the so-called “abortion debate.” Take pro-choice, for example. I was once one of these fence-sitting devils, but I’ve left that in the sandbox. It’s pro-abortion from here on, as “choice” implies I want anyone to avoid the suction tube. Get thee to an abortionist, or you’re as bad as the lifers. The only choice I want you to have is during which trimester you’re going to submit to the procedure. You blew the choice thing when you lied to your man about being on the pill. It’s a small gesture and more language than action, but it’s a start. A sufficiently bold-type opening salvo than can weed out the half-hearted. It’s an uphill climb to be sure in this Nadya Nation, but strike a blow where you can. Cut out parents from your list of friends; sniff and roll your eyes whenever you encounter kids at the mall; donate to abortionists as you would a church; flip off a school bus at every opportunity; waste your seed again and again in masturbatory excess. Hell, avoid fucking altogether if you have to. It’s all good, and all up to you. And if Nadya should meet with a suspicious, fiery “one-car” accident on some lonely, Silkwood stretch of road, raise a fist for justice. And hope she brought the kids.
...

I haven't spewed any of my usual asinine counter-UMC-whitey vitriol in weeks, so here we go: I'm sick of your herd of children.

Going with the famously inane debate reply that "_X_ doesn't _verb_ people, people _verb_ people." In this thread I'd like to discuss the justification for having kids. Why isn't it controlled? In the US, we control everything from driving an automobile to attempting to hook a fish to owning a belt-fed battery-operated Gatling gun. Try as I might, I can't figure how me made it to 2011 without a state-issued reproduction license. What's the excuse? Economic segregation and class wars? Simple biological "human rights?" You can't own a cat without papers but you can cram a family of five into a shitbox apartment in Fayetteville. And though ultimately necessary for the continuation of the species, I want you, multi-parents, to know that I think your hobby is despicable. As with all good things in America... you've fucked it up by taking moderation and tying it behind your giant SUV that you park in the 'Burbs.
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
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as a 'multi-parent,' I would like to point out that I'm glad I'm not the mother of the asswipe that wrote that inane, misogynistic 'article.' I mean, he makes his own point very well. Maybe we would be better off if about half of the latest two generations never saw the light of day on the planet.

one thing that really bugs me about the internet is how it enables so many myopic narcissists to believe they are the latest Hunter Thompson.
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:45 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I agree with the article to a point, but it's all men's fault. We need them under control and on the pills.
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:12 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Controlling reproduction is a surefire way to guarantee social unrest/breakdown. Not necessarily right away, but within a relatively short time.

China, anyone?

Think about it... a generation with more than 20 million men with no potential female partners. 3 choices... bring in a lot of foreign women, promote mass male homosexuality, or the traditional solution: war, either within or without.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
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That article in the OP is asinine and misogynistic. I hate it. But I do have an opinion on the topic.

Sterilization should be more freely available, for free or cheap.

My sister has 5 kids. All of them were unexpected. After she gave birth to the first two (twins) she wanted no more. But they kept coming. She was on various forms of birth control when she became pregnant with each of the remaining 3 children. Depo for the first one, IUD for the second, and for the third she was on an oral pill with a name I don't recall. For some women, birth control flat-out doesn't work. She tried on a number of occasions to get her tubes tied, but the state-funded physicians she had access to denied her the service. After the last pregnancy the hospital finally offered a free sterilization procedure. She jumped at the opportunity.

She loves her kids. She and her husband hate that they can't provide for them without significant assistance from the grandparents and healthcare from the state. But they make it work.

I like children. I don't have any. I will probably have some someday, whether through a natural miracle or by adoption. I am only frustrated when I see utterly unfit parents with multiple children (read: druggies whose kids are bruised and are yelled at in public). I want to hug those kids and give them someplace safe to live. I find myself irrationally jealous of the fact that people like that can have a herd of kids, and I can't have one.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Hey, uh, GreyWolf, um, maybe you want to pick a better example than China seeing as how there's not much unrest there or social breakdown. To the contrary, it's a pretty stable country.

To quote Judge Smails, the world needs ditchdiggers too. The above article is just another ditch.

Oh, and sometimes you have to yell at your kid in public. It's not pleasant, but sometimes that's the only thing that's gonig to stop whatever it is that's going on.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:47 AM   #7 (permalink)
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In my dream world, EVERYONE goes through the sterilization process and no one breeds without government licencing. Gone are the mothers with 8 kids, the 14 year olds with a one year old, crack whores who are pregnant that will spread their legs for crack but won't get an abortion. Gone are Deadbeat Dads, 15 year old teenage fathers, and criminals who are fathers serving life sentences.

No one breeds, but everyone can fuck. You wanna have a baby? Apply for a baby grant. Have the government check your health, personal wealth, job status, home life, and whether or not you are fit to raise a kid.

I will agree with the ladies that have posted before me, this guy is coming off as a dick. That's fine, it's what bloggers/web authors do. It's like the opposite of that old adage; "You catch more flies with honey than a stick."

Personally, I'd just like one whole year to go by without seeing one of my cousins become pregnant at the age of 14-15 with a teenage father who, "Doesn't like her anymore."

I hate children, babies, and teenagers. Until you start working for a living, you are just another burden on society. On the other hand, I'll most likely help pop out a podling with cinn, even tho I think I'd fail every test to see if I could handle being a parent. So, yeah, mixed feelings.

Also, people are going to find a way to use the system to make sure they never have to work a day in their life. Women, like the ones quoted in this article, will use their inate skill "Summon Babies; Lvl 1 Sorcery" to do it. If you take away that, they will find something new.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:48 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I agree with gg that sterilization should be offered for free to poor women who keep having babies. I think the number of women who are having babies with the express purpose of 'living off the system' or pulling a number on some dude are minimal.

You know, women like to fuck, too. Sometimes, just like men, we just want to get laid and not think about the consequences. And, as always, I really hate the double standard that characterizes the two genders regarding this subject - which is still rooted in the idea that female sexual aggression is dirty, immoral, corrupt, manipulative, deceptive, dangerous, etc., etc. I'm sure it has something to do with the power that female sexuality has over men, but this isn't the middle ages, there are no succubi. Just horny women getting laid, sometimes irresponsibly, but they are hardly alone when they are doing it.

I guess I'm getting off topic, though, what a surprise.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:02 AM   #9 (permalink)
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There are still men, who think they have zero responsiblity regarding contraception. "Women getting unwantedly pregnant are held responsible for opening their legs."

We require the driver to have a licence for "transporting of dangerous goods", when the cargo of the truck contains toxic or explosive material. Government should make this a mandatory licence for men carrying sperm.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:09 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. I have two kids. Probably gonna have another one at some point. With regards to justifications, well, I like kids. Especially my kids. I don't really feel the need to justify it (and wouldn't expect any justifications to be accepted at face value anyway) beyond that.

As for the blog, meh. Is this what Analog does in his free time nowadays? I get it, if your blog appears on a website called "ruthlessviews.com" then you're obligated to come across as angry and you're obligated to say provocative things.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:16 AM   #11 (permalink)
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It's a byproduct of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I sure as hell do not want some college-educated-know-it-all telling me I'm not good enough to be a dad (or a mother, if I was a female). Fuck that noise.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:20 AM   #12 (permalink)
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There are still men, who think they have zero responsiblity regarding contraception. "Women getting unwantedly pregnant are held responsible for opening their legs."
Well, logically women have the most to gain/loose from the "transaction" so it makes sense that traditionally women have been the ones to place more concern on contraception. With any luck, the male birth control pill will be available soon and that should even the playing field a bit.

In response to the original post, I think we need to remove the incentive to have children. I'm not sure how the system works exactly, but if there is an infinitely increasing scale that translates to "more kids = more money" in ghetto speak then there is a problem.

Perhaps something a little more reasonable. Still allow for support for someone with one kid, since things happen. Then perhaps modify the scale as the number of kids increase, i.e. two kids gets 1.5x the normal amount, three gets 1.75x, four gets 2x and then cap it there. If it costs more to have a kid than the government will pay you to keep them, maybe people will stop procreating for free money!
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:32 AM   #13 (permalink)
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If there was male birth control, I'd be on the pill in a heartbeat.

GG is right, there are women out there that just want to fuck with no strings attached.

God bless them, every single one of them.

This is an equal-opportunity clusterfuck, both sexes need to pull and pray is not an option for safe sex.

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It's a byproduct of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I sure as hell do not want some college-educated-know-it-all telling me I'm not good enough to be a dad (or a mother, if I was a female). Fuck that noise.
Don't they do the same thing for someone that adopts a child? I know it was a 3-4 month process for my mom (two of those months spent with inspectors that came randomly to the house to make sure everything was in order), what's so different from that and saying "you are fit enough to breed?" It's the same thing, they check your house, your job, your family life, and your background. It's a test that says, "I am of sound mind and body, with money to be able to spend on a child."

Those who want kids will make sure they will pass the tests while those who wouldn't, well they can fuck to their heart's delight.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:36 AM   #14 (permalink)
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In response to the original post, I think we need to remove the incentive to have children. I'm not sure how the system works exactly, but if there is an infinitely increasing scale that translates to "more kids = more money" in ghetto speak then there is a problem.
These days, it doesn't.

There are a variety of benefits low-income parents can apply for: Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (welfare); the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC); housing benefits (federally subsidized, Section 8, local housing benefits, etc); and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP).

TANF is temporary. It runs out after 5 years of LIFETIME benefits.

Subsidized housing is a patchwork of programs that requires persistence to pursue as a housing option. Many waitlists are years long for housing assistance.

WIC and SNAP are probably the easiest programs for an impoverished family to avail themselves of, and why wouldn't we want to feed children and families? WIC is an especially good program--the vouchers allow the purchase of particular foods (seriously, look around your grocery store and spot the WIC stickers, you'll be impressed--no junk food). Further, millions of people use SNAP, including poor college students.

As for the question presented in the OP: I think we should make family planning more available and more easily acquired. I know I have benefited from access to family planning services. Additionally, we should increase educational access and quality in parts of the country with higher birth rates. As said in the OP, and as research shows--the better educated people are, the more likely they are to seriously think about having children before they have children.

And why am I going to have children? Because I want to raise a super-smart Mini-Me. DUH.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:42 AM   #15 (permalink)
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With regards to abuse of the social safety net, I see a lot of folks decrying the problem but very little evidence that the problem is significant. Analogously, I saw someone run a stop sign once, so clearly we should get rid of stop signs, I mean, come on, the stop sign system is just asking to be abused!

Is there really money to be made having more kids? This seems like the kind of idea that only a person who doesn't have kids (or a person who is trying to foment the ire of certain political constituencies) would dream up. Newsflash: kids are expensive. Also, I find the idea that every other urban welfare recipient is somehow being propped up by the ill-gotten gains of a drug dealing boyfriend to be laughable.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:42 AM   #16 (permalink)
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In the instance of the octo-mom, you have a woman who was raised with the sole desire to become a mother. Contrary to popular male belief, this is not an unusual occurrence. Especially in the conservative/religious sub-culture, this mentality is incredibly common. Growing up in the LDS community, I was verbally beaten down every time I spoke of my interest in becoming anything other than a mother. The correct answer to the question "What do you want to be when you grow up?" was "I want to be a stay-at-home mom, but until that time happens, I want to..."

No young woman should go through that kind of programming.
And any young woman who honestly replies that the only thing they want to be is a mother should be introduced to alternative career options.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Don't they do the same thing for someone that adopts a child? I know it was a 3-4 month process for my mom (two of those months spent with inspectors that came randomly to the house to make sure everything was in order), what's so different from that and saying "you are fit enough to breed?" It's the same thing, they check your house, your job, your family life, and your background. It's a test that says, "I am of sound mind and body, with money to be able to spend on a child."

Those who want kids will make sure they will pass the tests while those who wouldn't, well they can fuck to their heart's delight.
So mandatory abortions or mandatory contraceptives, to include IUDs for people who don't pass that test?
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:01 AM   #18 (permalink)
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With regards to abuse of the social safety net, I see a lot of folks decrying the problem but very little evidence that the problem is significant. Analogously, I saw someone run a stop sign once, so clearly we should get rid of stop signs, I mean, come on, the stop sign system is just asking to be abused!

Is there really money to be made having more kids? This seems like the kind of idea that only a person who doesn't have kids (or a person who is trying to foment the ire of certain political constituencies) would dream up. Newsflash: kids are expensive. Also, I find the idea that every other urban welfare recipient is somehow being propped up by the ill-gotten gains of a drug dealing boyfriend to be laughable.
The idea that you can live comfortably on government assistance and even more comfortably the more kids you have is nothing but urban legend. Only people who have never been in the system would ever believe that.

---------- Post added at 11:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------

and I should know. I'm finally in the system.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:02 AM   #19 (permalink)
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So mandatory abortions or mandatory contraceptives, to include IUDs for people who don't pass that test?
If it was in the realm of feasible, yes. Mandatory birth control for everyone, period. If you want to have a kid, apply to the government to come off the drugs. I'm not going to say mandatory abortions, that's not what I'm arguing about. I'm not trying to kill unborn children, just prevent them altogether.

No octo-moms, no teen/preteen moms trying to finish HS, or people like GG's sister who wanted to stop having kids, but couldn't.

Also, no MTV shows like, "Teen Mom", 16 and pregnant, I didn't know I was pregnant, or Engaged and underage.

There are a lot of people out there who are great parents and able to take care of their kids. Then there is the overwhelming population of fucktards that shouldn't be allowed within 100 feet of children, neither-less raise children of their own.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:02 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Hey, uh, GreyWolf, um, maybe you want to pick a better example than China seeing as how there's not much unrest there or social breakdown. To the contrary, it's a pretty stable country.
The stability of China is somewhat of an illusion. Please note I said not necessarily right away. The effects of the one-child/male preference policy/effect in China probably won't really be felt for another 10 years or so. But rest assured that the stability of the country rests on a very thin edge right now.

A standing army/paramilitary total of 7.5 million manages to deflect some of the competition for females (the US military, including reserves totals only about 2.5 million). Traditionally, men who cannot find/have not found a mate move into the military. This suggests that the 7.5 million figure will swell as more men follow that route. A country, even China, cannot long sustain a huge military without finding an outlet for it. That outlet is war. Including reservists (40+ million), almost 4% of China's population is tied up in the military. The US, by comparison has less than 0.8% of it's population in the military/reserves.

And sterilization IS quick, cheap, and easy... for men. But unlike women, who have a "built-in" end to their reproductive viability, we don't - so it seems like a bigger step for us. For many men, sterility = loss of manhood. It ain't.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:11 AM   #21 (permalink)
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The stability of China is somewhat of an illusion. Please note I said not necessarily right away. The effects of the one-child/male preference policy/effect in China probably won't really be felt for another 10 years or so. But rest assured that the stability of the country rests on a very thin edge right now.

A standing army/paramilitary total of 7.5 million manages to deflect some of the competition for females (the US military, including reserves totals only about 2.5 million). Traditionally, men who cannot find/have not found a mate move into the military. This suggests that the 7.5 million figure will swell as more men follow that route. A country, even China, cannot long sustain a huge military without finding an outlet for it. That outlet is war. Including reservists (40+ million), almost 4% of China's population is tied up in the military. The US, by comparison has less than 0.8% of it's population in the military/reserves.

And sterilization IS quick, cheap, and easy... for men. But unlike women, who have a "built-in" end to their reproductive viability, we don't - so it seems like a bigger step for us. For many men, sterility = loss of manhood. It ain't.
I'm all for pluralism, and authoritarianism seems like an extension of pluralistic methods of implementing governmental influence. I am curious as to how stable China will be in the coming 30 years (as opposed to a democracy which, has its own sets of shortcomings, such as a paralyzed government, special interests, oppression of minorities through the will of the majority).

Anyway, China enforces its one child policy through forced sterilizations (would any one here want to be forced to undergo a vasectomy?--I know I would not. It violates my fundamental right to autonomy), kicking families with more than 1 child out of school, and occasionally razing the homes of families with more than one child (Oh, you have a son AND a daughter? Lemme tear down your house and make you homeless).

Still sound like a good system?
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:49 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I love how this thread has a lot of males wanting mandatory contraceptives (pointed at women, obviously) or sterilization (also pointed at women in this thread), but none electing for voluntary vasectomies. Seriously, which of you have voluntarily undergone a vasectomy to prevent having children? Oh, wait, that's an invasion of your privacy and autonomy.. yet you're okay with forcing women to take hormonal contraceptives, have IUDs placed, or undergo sterilization, to preserve your ideal of a "baby free" society.

Governments do not like the idea of enforcing reproduction limits. Why? Because, even though people moan about supporting people through social programs, the government can't afford to destroy its future tax base. If the population declines, they'll have to increase taxes per capita to maintain the same budget, and no government ever wants to speak those words to its citizens.

The same people who are bitching about overpopulation/babies suck don't seem to be bothered by the government wanting to defund Planned Parenthood, which is a program educating citizens and providing the services these people would rather the government shove down people's throats. If you really cared so much about these issues, why aren't you out there protesting that bill with the *women* who value those services? If the government will defund PP, how do you ever think they'd support a mandatory program of the same services??

If the government ever tries to tell me I have to take hormones until I pass a test to have a kid, I'm rioting and moving elsewhere. No one gets to tell me what I get to do with my own body, especially not my government.

How about vasectomies for everyone at the age of 15, a reversal if you pass a test and want a kid? Hmm?
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:55 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Your country is still perceived as a land of plenty so until that really changes it ain't gonna happen.

I've done my part and had a vasectomy after our second child was born. I'm slightly bummed that I can't propose the name "Aubrey" for a third child's name but otherwise it's awesome. Two is hard enough.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:56 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Thanks for the feedback on assistance programs Snowy and MM. I have not needed to use these systems myself so far and I am unaware of the details. I am familiar with WIC items and appreciate that they don't include junk food.

I realize that kids are expensive. There is a reason why Starkizzer and I have taken precautions to prevent any unwanted minions. It is worth noting that even under her parents' health plan at the time, the IUD was a significant out of pocket expense. They didn't cover a dime of the device or procedure. Stupid IMO since it has been the best no-baby solution we have ever had.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:20 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PonyPotato View Post
I love how this thread has a lot of males wanting mandatory contraceptives (pointed at women, obviously) or sterilization (also pointed at women in this thread), but none electing for voluntary vasectomies. Seriously, which of you have voluntarily undergone a vasectomy to prevent having children? Oh, wait, that's an invasion of your privacy and autonomy.. yet you're okay with forcing women to take hormonal contraceptives, have IUDs placed, or undergo sterilization, to preserve your ideal of a "baby free" society.

Governments do not like the idea of enforcing reproduction limits. Why? Because, even though people moan about supporting people through social programs, the government can't afford to destroy its future tax base. If the population declines, they'll have to increase taxes per capita to maintain the same budget, and no government ever wants to speak those words to its citizens.

The same people who are bitching about overpopulation/babies suck don't seem to be bothered by the government wanting to defund Planned Parenthood, which is a program educating citizens and providing the services these people would rather the government shove down people's throats. If you really cared so much about these issues, why aren't you out there protesting that bill with the *women* who value those services? If the government will defund PP, how do you ever think they'd support a mandatory program of the same services??

If the government ever tries to tell me I have to take hormones until I pass a test to have a kid, I'm rioting and moving elsewhere. No one gets to tell me what I get to do with my own body, especially not my government.
Give me a male birth control pill, I'd swallow the thing till the day I die. Do I get a free vasectomy? If you would have told me I could have a free one when I was 18, I would have been in the doctor's office in a heartbeat. That would have made me the happiest teenager on the planet if you told me I didn't have a chance in hell of having some unwanted podling that I'd have to raise by myself (which if you take in account the women I've slept with, I would have been a single father). I can't even get health insurance now, neither less free sterilization. When I was 19 in the doctor's office, I asked about vasectomy and completely got the cold shoulder. Some BS about "you will think differently when are older" and he starts telling me about the meds I get.

Don't think because I want mandatory contraceptives or sterilization, doesn't mean I want them just for women. I mean EVERYONE, male and female. Just cause you have the right biological parts, doesn't mean you need or are ready to breed.

I am completely for PP and I hate that it's getting taken down by our money hungry government looking to knock one item off a tax budget. I haven't said anything in the PP thread because it's in tilted politics. I hate that place. I've been the to PP and I love the idea of it.

I stated before, this is my dream world, this will never happen in the US. I can wish and hope, but it's a false hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PonyPotato View Post
How about vasectomies for everyone at the age of 15, a reversal if you pass a test and want a kid? Hmm?
Yes, 120% of YES. 15 is to old, make it 12. Hell, if it was even biologically possible, I'm down for giving a circumcision and vasectomy at the same time when babies are born. Snip here, snip there. Oh look, no more teenage pregnancy, deadbeat dads and this fucked up shit where people give birth to kids and don't tell anyone.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:47 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Kids are expensive = not necessarily true.

Lifestyles are expensive. Our welfare system may be a bit different. It won't make you rich, but you can manage without putting as much in for the society than you've gained from it.

Can't argue with Jazz though: we need ditchdiggers as well. And surrogate mothers. How could we meet with the demands of gay couples or those, who can't have their own children, if every pregnancy was planned and regulated?

How many men would be willing to take pills, that make their mood change? Sterilization would cause mental problems, people do change their mind often later. But maybe they could be medicated against the late desire to have a child of own flesh and blood.

Multi-children families at least balance the amount of narcissists.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
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This whole thread is a Huxleyan nightmare in the making.

If we do away with natural reproduction, let's do away with guns, property, and privacy too.

Let's get rid of all our problems; not just one!
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:56 AM   #28 (permalink)
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This whole thread is a Huxleyan nightmare in the making.

If we do away with natural reproduction, let's do away with guns, property, and privacy too.

Let's get rid of all our problems; not just one!
I agree. Sweeping regulations imposed on many to fix the faults of few is problematic.

Anyway. Can we get this thread back on target: What are people's justification for having children?
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:08 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bagatelle View Post
Kids are expensive = not necessarily true.

Lifestyles are expensive. Our welfare system may be a bit different. It won't make you rich, but you can manage without putting as much in for the society than you've gained from it.
I don't think you'll find anyone who will argue that people on welfare -while on welfare- aren't gaining from society. What I'm saying is that the cost-benefit ratio for having kids as a means of increasing your welfare check is less than one.

And kids are expensive, even if you were to make all of their clothes, feed them only oatmeal, avoid the doctor visits and leave them home alone while you and your spouse work. If you factor in the considerable time commitment required to raise them right the little bastards aren't cheap.

Quote:
Multi-children families at least balance the amount of narcissists.
If only this were true.
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:13 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KirStang View Post
I agree. Sweeping regulations imposed on many to fix the faults of few is problematic.

Anyway. Can we get this thread back on target: What are people's justification for having children?
My reply following the vibes I get from the article: Take the piss out of those, who don't have children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton View Post
I don't think you'll find anyone who will argue that people on welfare -while on welfare- aren't gaining from society. What I'm saying is that the cost-benefit ratio for having kids as a means of increasing your welfare check is less than one.

And kids are expensive, even if you were to make all of their clothes, feed them only oatmeal, avoid the doctor visits and leave them home alone while you and your spouse work. If you factor in the considerable time commitment required to raise them right the little bastards aren't cheap.
The expensive is often, because you want to maintain a certain lifestyle. Kids themselves would not know to require much but basic things, they can use recycled goods. What makes raising kids expensive is that they have to get what everyone else is getting. Raising kids becomes armaments race.

When it comes to their hobbies at later age, training them is expensive, but still it's like dealing with investments. Many parents make their kids to practise ice hockey for example. In hopes that they one day become multimillionare professional players. If your kid does not succeed, you made a bad investment.
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:34 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I would be very happy to learn that newer, painless methods of vasectomy/castration were being pioneered right now by top men.


...top men.
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:27 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I think some folks need to go back and read Jonathon Swift.
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:37 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Some say Swift was a failed satirist because too many people took what he wrote seriously.
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:48 AM   #34 (permalink)
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It always amuses me how people will so willingly give away rights they don't think are important and don't intend to use.
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:06 PM   #35 (permalink)
 
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I tried really hard to see beyond the Op's link & find something to discuss.
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:17 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Two in the pink and two in the stink, that's how the Vulcans roll.

I think we should reanimate Swift and tell him that Bono is a baby. The guy's pretty short and Walking Dead Swift probably won't be able to tell the difference. That'll help clear up the modern Irish Problem.
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:15 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I suppose we should start with the author's parents?

Let's skip the male bashing, as well. If vasectomies included an on/off switch most guys would have them before their first legal beer. Our options simply suck (as do women's, admittedly).

I'm entirely in favor of better/easier contraception in all forms. More funding for Planned Parenthood?
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:36 PM   #38 (permalink)
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StanT,

You can pop on over to PP and cut them a check any time you want. They also accept Visa and Mastercard....I'm just saying, if you support more funding, then go support it.
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:39 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Apparently, sarcasm doesn't always translate well.
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:48 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Ah, sorry. :P
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