02-23-2011, 12:47 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
I Confess a Shiver
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Partnership for a Baby Free America
SOURCE: __LINK__
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I haven't spewed any of my usual asinine counter-UMC-whitey vitriol in weeks, so here we go: I'm sick of your herd of children. Going with the famously inane debate reply that "_X_ doesn't _verb_ people, people _verb_ people." In this thread I'd like to discuss the justification for having kids. Why isn't it controlled? In the US, we control everything from driving an automobile to attempting to hook a fish to owning a belt-fed battery-operated Gatling gun. Try as I might, I can't figure how me made it to 2011 without a state-issued reproduction license. What's the excuse? Economic segregation and class wars? Simple biological "human rights?" You can't own a cat without papers but you can cram a family of five into a shitbox apartment in Fayetteville. And though ultimately necessary for the continuation of the species, I want you, multi-parents, to know that I think your hobby is despicable. As with all good things in America... you've fucked it up by taking moderation and tying it behind your giant SUV that you park in the 'Burbs. Last edited by Plan9; 02-23-2011 at 01:54 AM.. |
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02-23-2011, 01:14 AM | #2 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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as a 'multi-parent,' I would like to point out that I'm glad I'm not the mother of the asswipe that wrote that inane, misogynistic 'article.' I mean, he makes his own point very well. Maybe we would be better off if about half of the latest two generations never saw the light of day on the planet.
one thing that really bugs me about the internet is how it enables so many myopic narcissists to believe they are the latest Hunter Thompson.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
02-23-2011, 03:12 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Sober
Location: Eastern Canada
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Controlling reproduction is a surefire way to guarantee social unrest/breakdown. Not necessarily right away, but within a relatively short time.
China, anyone? Think about it... a generation with more than 20 million men with no potential female partners. 3 choices... bring in a lot of foreign women, promote mass male homosexuality, or the traditional solution: war, either within or without.
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02-23-2011, 05:07 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Eat your vegetables
Super Moderator
Location: Arabidopsis-ville
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That article in the OP is asinine and misogynistic. I hate it. But I do have an opinion on the topic.
Sterilization should be more freely available, for free or cheap. My sister has 5 kids. All of them were unexpected. After she gave birth to the first two (twins) she wanted no more. But they kept coming. She was on various forms of birth control when she became pregnant with each of the remaining 3 children. Depo for the first one, IUD for the second, and for the third she was on an oral pill with a name I don't recall. For some women, birth control flat-out doesn't work. She tried on a number of occasions to get her tubes tied, but the state-funded physicians she had access to denied her the service. After the last pregnancy the hospital finally offered a free sterilization procedure. She jumped at the opportunity. She loves her kids. She and her husband hate that they can't provide for them without significant assistance from the grandparents and healthcare from the state. But they make it work. I like children. I don't have any. I will probably have some someday, whether through a natural miracle or by adoption. I am only frustrated when I see utterly unfit parents with multiple children (read: druggies whose kids are bruised and are yelled at in public). I want to hug those kids and give them someplace safe to live. I find myself irrationally jealous of the fact that people like that can have a herd of kids, and I can't have one.
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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy Last edited by genuinegirly; 02-23-2011 at 05:14 AM.. |
02-23-2011, 05:39 AM | #6 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Hey, uh, GreyWolf, um, maybe you want to pick a better example than China seeing as how there's not much unrest there or social breakdown. To the contrary, it's a pretty stable country.
To quote Judge Smails, the world needs ditchdiggers too. The above article is just another ditch. Oh, and sometimes you have to yell at your kid in public. It's not pleasant, but sometimes that's the only thing that's gonig to stop whatever it is that's going on.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
02-23-2011, 05:47 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Paladin of the Palate
Location: Redneckville, NC
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In my dream world, EVERYONE goes through the sterilization process and no one breeds without government licencing. Gone are the mothers with 8 kids, the 14 year olds with a one year old, crack whores who are pregnant that will spread their legs for crack but won't get an abortion. Gone are Deadbeat Dads, 15 year old teenage fathers, and criminals who are fathers serving life sentences.
No one breeds, but everyone can fuck. You wanna have a baby? Apply for a baby grant. Have the government check your health, personal wealth, job status, home life, and whether or not you are fit to raise a kid. I will agree with the ladies that have posted before me, this guy is coming off as a dick. That's fine, it's what bloggers/web authors do. It's like the opposite of that old adage; "You catch more flies with honey than a stick." Personally, I'd just like one whole year to go by without seeing one of my cousins become pregnant at the age of 14-15 with a teenage father who, "Doesn't like her anymore." I hate children, babies, and teenagers. Until you start working for a living, you are just another burden on society. On the other hand, I'll most likely help pop out a podling with cinn, even tho I think I'd fail every test to see if I could handle being a parent. So, yeah, mixed feelings. Also, people are going to find a way to use the system to make sure they never have to work a day in their life. Women, like the ones quoted in this article, will use their inate skill "Summon Babies; Lvl 1 Sorcery" to do it. If you take away that, they will find something new.
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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich Last edited by LordEden; 02-23-2011 at 05:50 AM.. |
02-23-2011, 06:48 AM | #8 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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I agree with gg that sterilization should be offered for free to poor women who keep having babies. I think the number of women who are having babies with the express purpose of 'living off the system' or pulling a number on some dude are minimal.
You know, women like to fuck, too. Sometimes, just like men, we just want to get laid and not think about the consequences. And, as always, I really hate the double standard that characterizes the two genders regarding this subject - which is still rooted in the idea that female sexual aggression is dirty, immoral, corrupt, manipulative, deceptive, dangerous, etc., etc. I'm sure it has something to do with the power that female sexuality has over men, but this isn't the middle ages, there are no succubi. Just horny women getting laid, sometimes irresponsibly, but they are hardly alone when they are doing it. I guess I'm getting off topic, though, what a surprise.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
02-23-2011, 07:02 AM | #9 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Europe
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There are still men, who think they have zero responsiblity regarding contraception. "Women getting unwantedly pregnant are held responsible for opening their legs."
We require the driver to have a licence for "transporting of dangerous goods", when the cargo of the truck contains toxic or explosive material. Government should make this a mandatory licence for men carrying sperm.
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02-23-2011, 07:09 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. I have two kids. Probably gonna have another one at some point. With regards to justifications, well, I like kids. Especially my kids. I don't really feel the need to justify it (and wouldn't expect any justifications to be accepted at face value anyway) beyond that.
As for the blog, meh. Is this what Analog does in his free time nowadays? I get it, if your blog appears on a website called "ruthlessviews.com" then you're obligated to come across as angry and you're obligated to say provocative things. |
02-23-2011, 07:16 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Future Bureaucrat
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It's a byproduct of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I sure as hell do not want some college-educated-know-it-all telling me I'm not good enough to be a dad (or a mother, if I was a female). Fuck that noise.
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02-23-2011, 07:20 AM | #12 (permalink) | |
Beer Aficionado
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
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In response to the original post, I think we need to remove the incentive to have children. I'm not sure how the system works exactly, but if there is an infinitely increasing scale that translates to "more kids = more money" in ghetto speak then there is a problem. Perhaps something a little more reasonable. Still allow for support for someone with one kid, since things happen. Then perhaps modify the scale as the number of kids increase, i.e. two kids gets 1.5x the normal amount, three gets 1.75x, four gets 2x and then cap it there. If it costs more to have a kid than the government will pay you to keep them, maybe people will stop procreating for free money!
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Starkizzer Fan Club - President & Founder |
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02-23-2011, 07:32 AM | #13 (permalink) | |
Paladin of the Palate
Location: Redneckville, NC
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If there was male birth control, I'd be on the pill in a heartbeat.
GG is right, there are women out there that just want to fuck with no strings attached. God bless them, every single one of them. This is an equal-opportunity clusterfuck, both sexes need to pull and pray is not an option for safe sex. ***** Quote:
Those who want kids will make sure they will pass the tests while those who wouldn't, well they can fuck to their heart's delight.
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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich Last edited by LordEden; 02-23-2011 at 07:42 AM.. |
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02-23-2011, 07:36 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
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There are a variety of benefits low-income parents can apply for: Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (welfare); the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC); housing benefits (federally subsidized, Section 8, local housing benefits, etc); and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP). TANF is temporary. It runs out after 5 years of LIFETIME benefits. Subsidized housing is a patchwork of programs that requires persistence to pursue as a housing option. Many waitlists are years long for housing assistance. WIC and SNAP are probably the easiest programs for an impoverished family to avail themselves of, and why wouldn't we want to feed children and families? WIC is an especially good program--the vouchers allow the purchase of particular foods (seriously, look around your grocery store and spot the WIC stickers, you'll be impressed--no junk food). Further, millions of people use SNAP, including poor college students. As for the question presented in the OP: I think we should make family planning more available and more easily acquired. I know I have benefited from access to family planning services. Additionally, we should increase educational access and quality in parts of the country with higher birth rates. As said in the OP, and as research shows--the better educated people are, the more likely they are to seriously think about having children before they have children. And why am I going to have children? Because I want to raise a super-smart Mini-Me. DUH.
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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
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02-23-2011, 07:42 AM | #15 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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With regards to abuse of the social safety net, I see a lot of folks decrying the problem but very little evidence that the problem is significant. Analogously, I saw someone run a stop sign once, so clearly we should get rid of stop signs, I mean, come on, the stop sign system is just asking to be abused!
Is there really money to be made having more kids? This seems like the kind of idea that only a person who doesn't have kids (or a person who is trying to foment the ire of certain political constituencies) would dream up. Newsflash: kids are expensive. Also, I find the idea that every other urban welfare recipient is somehow being propped up by the ill-gotten gains of a drug dealing boyfriend to be laughable. |
02-23-2011, 07:42 AM | #16 (permalink) |
Eat your vegetables
Super Moderator
Location: Arabidopsis-ville
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In the instance of the octo-mom, you have a woman who was raised with the sole desire to become a mother. Contrary to popular male belief, this is not an unusual occurrence. Especially in the conservative/religious sub-culture, this mentality is incredibly common. Growing up in the LDS community, I was verbally beaten down every time I spoke of my interest in becoming anything other than a mother. The correct answer to the question "What do you want to be when you grow up?" was "I want to be a stay-at-home mom, but until that time happens, I want to..."
No young woman should go through that kind of programming. And any young woman who honestly replies that the only thing they want to be is a mother should be introduced to alternative career options.
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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy |
02-23-2011, 07:50 AM | #17 (permalink) | ||
Future Bureaucrat
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02-23-2011, 08:01 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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---------- Post added at 11:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ---------- and I should know. I'm finally in the system.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
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02-23-2011, 08:02 AM | #19 (permalink) | |
Paladin of the Palate
Location: Redneckville, NC
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No octo-moms, no teen/preteen moms trying to finish HS, or people like GG's sister who wanted to stop having kids, but couldn't. Also, no MTV shows like, "Teen Mom", 16 and pregnant, I didn't know I was pregnant, or Engaged and underage. There are a lot of people out there who are great parents and able to take care of their kids. Then there is the overwhelming population of fucktards that shouldn't be allowed within 100 feet of children, neither-less raise children of their own.
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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich Last edited by LordEden; 02-23-2011 at 08:08 AM.. |
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02-23-2011, 08:02 AM | #20 (permalink) | |
Sober
Location: Eastern Canada
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A standing army/paramilitary total of 7.5 million manages to deflect some of the competition for females (the US military, including reserves totals only about 2.5 million). Traditionally, men who cannot find/have not found a mate move into the military. This suggests that the 7.5 million figure will swell as more men follow that route. A country, even China, cannot long sustain a huge military without finding an outlet for it. That outlet is war. Including reservists (40+ million), almost 4% of China's population is tied up in the military. The US, by comparison has less than 0.8% of it's population in the military/reserves. And sterilization IS quick, cheap, and easy... for men. But unlike women, who have a "built-in" end to their reproductive viability, we don't - so it seems like a bigger step for us. For many men, sterility = loss of manhood. It ain't.
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The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot. |
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02-23-2011, 08:11 AM | #21 (permalink) | ||
Future Bureaucrat
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Anyway, China enforces its one child policy through forced sterilizations (would any one here want to be forced to undergo a vasectomy?--I know I would not. It violates my fundamental right to autonomy), kicking families with more than 1 child out of school, and occasionally razing the homes of families with more than one child (Oh, you have a son AND a daughter? Lemme tear down your house and make you homeless). Still sound like a good system?
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02-23-2011, 08:49 AM | #22 (permalink) |
Soaring
Location: Ohio!
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I love how this thread has a lot of males wanting mandatory contraceptives (pointed at women, obviously) or sterilization (also pointed at women in this thread), but none electing for voluntary vasectomies. Seriously, which of you have voluntarily undergone a vasectomy to prevent having children? Oh, wait, that's an invasion of your privacy and autonomy.. yet you're okay with forcing women to take hormonal contraceptives, have IUDs placed, or undergo sterilization, to preserve your ideal of a "baby free" society.
Governments do not like the idea of enforcing reproduction limits. Why? Because, even though people moan about supporting people through social programs, the government can't afford to destroy its future tax base. If the population declines, they'll have to increase taxes per capita to maintain the same budget, and no government ever wants to speak those words to its citizens. The same people who are bitching about overpopulation/babies suck don't seem to be bothered by the government wanting to defund Planned Parenthood, which is a program educating citizens and providing the services these people would rather the government shove down people's throats. If you really cared so much about these issues, why aren't you out there protesting that bill with the *women* who value those services? If the government will defund PP, how do you ever think they'd support a mandatory program of the same services?? If the government ever tries to tell me I have to take hormones until I pass a test to have a kid, I'm rioting and moving elsewhere. No one gets to tell me what I get to do with my own body, especially not my government. How about vasectomies for everyone at the age of 15, a reversal if you pass a test and want a kid? Hmm?
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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark." — Henri-Frédéric Amiel Last edited by PonyPotato; 02-23-2011 at 08:56 AM.. |
02-23-2011, 08:55 AM | #23 (permalink) |
Functionally Appropriate
Location: Toronto
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Your country is still perceived as a land of plenty so until that really changes it ain't gonna happen.
I've done my part and had a vasectomy after our second child was born. I'm slightly bummed that I can't propose the name "Aubrey" for a third child's name but otherwise it's awesome. Two is hard enough.
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Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life |
02-23-2011, 08:56 AM | #24 (permalink) |
Beer Aficionado
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
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Thanks for the feedback on assistance programs Snowy and MM. I have not needed to use these systems myself so far and I am unaware of the details. I am familiar with WIC items and appreciate that they don't include junk food.
I realize that kids are expensive. There is a reason why Starkizzer and I have taken precautions to prevent any unwanted minions. It is worth noting that even under her parents' health plan at the time, the IUD was a significant out of pocket expense. They didn't cover a dime of the device or procedure. Stupid IMO since it has been the best no-baby solution we have ever had.
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Starkizzer Fan Club - President & Founder |
02-23-2011, 09:20 AM | #25 (permalink) | ||
Paladin of the Palate
Location: Redneckville, NC
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Don't think because I want mandatory contraceptives or sterilization, doesn't mean I want them just for women. I mean EVERYONE, male and female. Just cause you have the right biological parts, doesn't mean you need or are ready to breed. I am completely for PP and I hate that it's getting taken down by our money hungry government looking to knock one item off a tax budget. I haven't said anything in the PP thread because it's in tilted politics. I hate that place. I've been the to PP and I love the idea of it. I stated before, this is my dream world, this will never happen in the US. I can wish and hope, but it's a false hope. Quote:
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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich Last edited by LordEden; 02-23-2011 at 09:40 AM.. |
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02-23-2011, 09:47 AM | #26 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Europe
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Kids are expensive = not necessarily true.
Lifestyles are expensive. Our welfare system may be a bit different. It won't make you rich, but you can manage without putting as much in for the society than you've gained from it. Can't argue with Jazz though: we need ditchdiggers as well. And surrogate mothers. How could we meet with the demands of gay couples or those, who can't have their own children, if every pregnancy was planned and regulated? How many men would be willing to take pills, that make their mood change? Sterilization would cause mental problems, people do change their mind often later. But maybe they could be medicated against the late desire to have a child of own flesh and blood. Multi-children families at least balance the amount of narcissists.
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02-23-2011, 09:50 AM | #27 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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This whole thread is a Huxleyan nightmare in the making.
If we do away with natural reproduction, let's do away with guns, property, and privacy too. Let's get rid of all our problems; not just one!
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
02-23-2011, 09:56 AM | #28 (permalink) | ||
Future Bureaucrat
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Anyway. Can we get this thread back on target: What are people's justification for having children?
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02-23-2011, 10:08 AM | #29 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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And kids are expensive, even if you were to make all of their clothes, feed them only oatmeal, avoid the doctor visits and leave them home alone while you and your spouse work. If you factor in the considerable time commitment required to raise them right the little bastards aren't cheap. Quote:
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02-23-2011, 10:13 AM | #30 (permalink) | ||
Psycho
Location: Europe
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When it comes to their hobbies at later age, training them is expensive, but still it's like dealing with investments. Many parents make their kids to practise ice hockey for example. In hopes that they one day become multimillionare professional players. If your kid does not succeed, you made a bad investment.
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02-23-2011, 11:27 AM | #32 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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I think some folks need to go back and read Jonathon Swift.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
02-23-2011, 11:37 AM | #33 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Some say Swift was a failed satirist because too many people took what he wrote seriously.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
02-23-2011, 11:48 AM | #34 (permalink) |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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It always amuses me how people will so willingly give away rights they don't think are important and don't intend to use.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 02-23-2011 at 12:40 PM.. |
02-23-2011, 12:17 PM | #36 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Two in the pink and two in the stink, that's how the Vulcans roll.
I think we should reanimate Swift and tell him that Bono is a baby. The guy's pretty short and Walking Dead Swift probably won't be able to tell the difference. That'll help clear up the modern Irish Problem.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
02-23-2011, 01:15 PM | #37 (permalink) |
©
Location: Colorado
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I suppose we should start with the author's parents?
Let's skip the male bashing, as well. If vasectomies included an on/off switch most guys would have them before their first legal beer. Our options simply suck (as do women's, admittedly). I'm entirely in favor of better/easier contraception in all forms. More funding for Planned Parenthood? |
02-23-2011, 01:36 PM | #38 (permalink) |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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StanT,
You can pop on over to PP and cut them a check any time you want. They also accept Visa and Mastercard....I'm just saying, if you support more funding, then go support it.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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