Zeraph

Heh I was tempted to put this in tilted weaponry because they'd probably be a lot more into it but I thought it belonged in tilted life.

For instance, my friend and I have been thinking of building and underground bunker with food supplies and guns and ammo. Think we're crazy? So far we're only in the planning stage but I'm seriously considering investing in needed supplies and seeking out other individuals who feel the same way.

We live in the US and our future seems quite dim. In a decade or so there may not be food in the grocery stores. Or if there is, it'll be 20 times the price and guarded by private security with assault rifles.

I don't know anything for sure. I am just starting to feel the need to stalk up on guns and ammo and long term food sources.

Although it doesn't hurt that I've always been curious about building a bunker even before this "recession" (depression) hit.

KirStang

Not prepared at all.

I need more stores of food and water. However, I'm relocating back to S. Florida soon (currently living in Baltimore). Thinking of stocking up when I get back there. Dad's a doctor, so we have a lot of basic medical supplies stocked up (disinfectants, gauze and the like).

Thinking though, I want a basic supply, enough to last at least a month, and a go bag in case staying put is not ideal.

Besides, Hurricanes are prevalent in S. Florida, so having supplies on hand isn't completely tin-foil-hattery.

Zeraph

I strongly suggest also arming yourself. If shit does hit the fan, 90% or so of the population won't be ready for it. And they'll try to take the prepared peoples supplies by force (who can blame them in this scenario tho? they'd be starving).

KirStang

I have a lot of long arms and pistols. And ammunition and safes to go with them. That's all covered. I'm something of a gun nut.

Believe me, if I could, I'd find a place for a machine gun emplacement somewhere. But alas, that falls off in to the brink of tin foil hat territory.

snowy

I live in a town that has appeared in post-apocalyptic fiction in the past as "the last bastion of civilization". I don't really fear civil unrest here. I think we're a pretty cooperative community in general, and I figure that if the shit were to hit the fan, we as a community would figure out some way to guarantee everyone's survival. We're just not a "every man for himself" kind of place. I don't see the need to arm myself, and I have access to arms elsewhere should I need them to hunt food.

However, I do think that civil unrest would be likely elsewhere in times of crisis, and were a major crisis to hit the United States, where I live would rapidly run out of easy-to-get food. We have other sources of food available to us in this community, though, and we're fortunate in that respect. We're surrounded by farmland, and we're at the fore of the local food movement. I think it would be difficult at first for us to change gears, though, and I have food supplies, first aid kits, and other supplies socked away in case of those scenarios.

Personally, I don't think our future is any more dim now than it was in the 1950s or 1980s. After all, there's still six minutes to midnight.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

mixedmedia

not prepared at all.

and if I ever find myself in a situation where all my neighbors are out to kill me for my food, then I'm not sure that's an environment I'm keen on surviving in.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Zeraph

That's an interesting point and I even somewhat I agree with you even though I'm a bit of a survivalist nut. I luckily don't have kids so I'm not responsible for anyone else. Not sure I'd want to live in such a world.

Baraka_Guru

I guess I'm in the same in that I'm not prepared. Where I differ, however, is that I'd take my chances in the Great White North. It's pretty barren up there.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Zeraph

How'd you eat and protect yourself? Remember after a few years in this type of situation predatory animals may also become a problem depending on how bad the government situation is.

PS hah you're all welcome to join me in arizona if you can get here. I'll be ready one way or another.

Willravel

Depends on the catastrophe. I've got canned and jar'd food, I've got water filters, I'm close to a water source, and I've got a bomb shelter. My garden is basically dead right now, but during spring, summer, and into autumn, it can provide decent sustenance. The only functional weapons I have would be food knives and an antique sword, so I wouldn't want to be in any fire fights. I can make bombs, in theory, but I don't know that I'd want to even in an extreme situation. I'm not a big fan of killing, even if it's a "them or me" situation.

Xerxys

I'm not prepared at all. I am also pretty surte this scenario will never happen. So instead of saving for my retirement, I'll just continue blowing my cash on ass, grass and gass!

Zeraph

You have a bomb shelter?! My respect for you just went up 10x. Then went down when you said you had no firearms

Get a .22 rifle at least for hunting small animals. They're cheap and can even be effective in a firefight if you have really really good aim.

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

Why are you so sure? Look at the russians and what happened after the coldwar. We are in a similar situation with two wars going on (yeah, iraq is still a freaking war when it costs that much). And then we have North Korea running wild and the israeli poised to strike. We're setting up for another world war. And this time america doesn't have the same amount of resources.

Willravel

In theory, I could survive an initial Hiroshima blast detonated a few miles away in downtown San Jose. That's what the shelter was designed for (built in the mid-1950s). It's at least 6 feet under ground and the entire thing is very, very thick, steel reinforced concrete. My garden is right on top of it.
.22, eh? That seems like a good size for small game like rabbits, squirrels and such. Assuming a catastrophe that cuts of reliable food sources, I'd probably want an animal source of protein (not that there's anything wrong with protein from legumes, nuts, seeds, and such, but it can be difficult to have a proper diet without meat and dairy).

If someone stole a .22 rifle from me, could they use it to kill people?

Xerxys

Dude, you watch too much zombie flicks.

The reason this can't happen is because America ... United States of America, that is, is a civilized country. We have something in our society that developed in the late 70's called a "social safety net". Many already industrialized countries have this. Think of the infrastructure already in place. We have railways, airstrips and roads. We have security camera's and maps and plans to implement a nationwide maglev network. You think the people would give that amount of advanced civilization even after a nuclear war? These things are far too precious for a country to give up on right now.

About running out of food ... well, thats not going to happen. Already a very minimal population is responsible for producing food for the entire country.

But most importantly, a life without my conviniences i.e. Glee, Stargate Universe, Internet, Bars ... would break my mind.

Willravel

That's physically impossible.

KirStang

AND you have a bunker? Sir, I'm beginning to like you.

However, Xerx, I have to disagree with you. Yes we live in a civilized society--however, Katrina AND Rodney King both happened, with concomitant civil unrest, looting, people setting houses on fire, senseless violence (remember the trucker?).

boink

yeah, the roving hordes of "have nots" will be rounded up and transported to Fema internment camps, you know those mythic concentration camps made from moth balled military bases ?

honestly, I'm not prepared at all. aside from the fact that I'm a blue collar metal worker and I know how to build stuff. I can stand dirt and noise hard work unlike all the office workers who's work is of nebulous value at best. I'm more likely to be a John Connor/McGuyver kind of guy, I would hope anyway.
I don't however know much about gardening. if I did have a place to garden I would though. I think I might go live at my moms place and garden there. if there was enough of an economic structure of any kind I'd cash out my moms house and move further away from the city, near a friend who's very good with gardening and cooking. mom has a copy of the foxfire book, I'd keep that handy.

right now I don't own much that'd be good for trading...I could buy a generator welder so I'd be capable of bartering welding and metalwork for food and stuff.

Kir, what kind of guns would you recommend ? multi purpose durable and something that takes common ammo ? I only own cap guns now.

oh, and in this scenario of total breakdown, what would any of you do with your money ? what would you do if you had a chance to cash out your bank account and buy stuff that would be useful in a socioeconomic apocalypse/meltdown ?

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

KirStang

edit. nvm

boink

yikes ! yeah I don't really want to go there. and I do mean cap guns, like this
Custom Miniatures

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

ASU2003

It all depends on a lot of things. I am prepared for some, not (yet) prepared for others.

I think it would take some time for society to collapse if food or oil ran out tomorrow, and in that time, some collectives/cities would come together to work towards survival.

An attack from a foreign gov or terrorist group on major cities using nuclear bombs would be tough if we survive the nuclear war. I would have to meet up with family, and live without power (I'm assuming a high-EMP blast). I also could choose to escape to Central America, but that will be messy without food from the US.

A economic collapse or dollar collapse and extremely high prices would affect some people differently. Some farmers would get rich if conditions were such that they could still grow food, investors would make money...But, it would be tough to get by if things cost 10x as much. Crime would go up, unemployment would be high. Society could learn to embrace free things, but I doubt it.

A right-left civil war would be the worse. Hopefully there would be a breakup that would go peacefully, but you would have the republican infantry vs the democratic bombers. It would be messy.

Zeraph

yes, will, any gun can be used to kill people.

Boink, I'd recommend a .22 for above said purposes (and the ammo is cheap, so you can reaaaally stock up on it) and a pump 12 gauge shotgun (buckshot) for actual defense of your bunker/house whatever.

And if you really want to be prepared, get a sidearm, .40 or up as backup.

PS remember those snipers awhile back, shooting people at malls and such from a van? They killed about half the people they targeted (poor shots IMO) and they used a .22 IIRC.

So yeah, a .22 is a lot more deadly than people make them out to be, they just aren't great for self-defense because they won't cause a massive loss of tissue or blood (unless like I said you're an excellent shot and can pop them in the head).

oh, another thing people don't often know about .22s is that there are varying loads just like any other ammo. I've got some that have the same ballistics as a .38.

The_Dunedan

Prepared? Superbly. Broken down by the Five B's:

Beans (food and water): Three gardens (approx 2 acres total), beef cattle, fishponds, woods full of deer and small game. Complete canning/jarring setup, plus dehydrators, drying racks, smoker and assorted cooking implimentia both gas- and wood-fired. 6 ponds plus 11 active springs means water is hardly a problem.

Band-Aids (medical equipment): Fully stocked STOMP first-aid kit for each home, smaller kits for each vehicle. Ample supplies of bandages, disinfectant, bleach (for water purification) and alcohol. NBC-rated gas-masks (with filters) and chemical suits for each resident.

Bullets (weapons and ammo): Do I -really- need to elaborate upon this one?

Booze: I live in Moonshine Country. This one a'int a problem. Likewise tobacco and other tradeable intoxicants.

Broads: The guy with all the food, medicine, and guns will have no problems in this department.

Preparedness is kind of our "thing" around here. We also have substantial gasoline and diesel storage on-site for vehicles and generators.

As for the likelihood of such a breakdown, I wouldn't bet against it. Katrina showed us how people can and will react under stress: some will hunker down and defend what's theirs, some will take to the roads, and a large number will simply start stealing anything in sight. In a long-term TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It) situation (ala "Lights Out," "Patriots," or "One Second After," those folks who took to the roads will rapidly devolve into one of two population types: what survivalists half-jokingly call GypFugees (refugees forced into nomadism by lack of a refuge) and MZBs (Mutant Zombie Bikers: highly mobile gangs of looters, robbers, and general thugs).

New Orleans got bad enough that some folks very nearly became GypFugees, and the MZBs were beginning to materialize. If something like New Orleans was to persist for a lengthy period of time (say beyond 4wks), the situation would be much worse, and would stay that way for much longer.

But of course, timelines and likely outcomes are all dependent upon what type of catastrophe you're dealing with. A localized natural disaster, like a hurricane or earthquake, might produce large numbers of casualties but could be brought under control fairly quickly. Something more widespread, such as a supervolcanic eruption, limited nuclear exchange, civil war or social/economic collapse...that's a different story. In a more generalized scenario the possibilities are endless and none of them good, because they're all driven by the same factors:

1: Disease. Within a week of a generalized collapse, water-borne illness could become a serious problem. By one month, Cholera and Typhus, at very least, would be major killers. Then there's the fact that without antiseptic care, a paper-cut can kill you or cost you a limb. Then there's all the chronic illnesses we live with: how long would certain people last without Insulin, AZT, Protease Inhibitors, Athsma medications? Not long, and not well.

2: Scarcity. Hungry people get desperate, and desperate people do desperate, stupid, vicious things. Andre`Chikatillo testified that when he was a boy during WWII, the most terrifying thing to see on the streets of Leningrad was a well-fed, fat-faced man. There was no food in Leningrad: such a man got that way by eating human flesh. Chikatillo's elder brother was also reportedly cannibalised during the Wheat Wars. Growing up with these traumas is believed by many to have been responsible for Chikatillo's cannibalism. Thanks to Just In Time resupply, most grocery-stores only carry 3-5 days worth of product, and that's 3-5 days at normal rates of consumption/purchasing. Ever seen what happens when it snows in the Deep South? People in the US already kill each other over Christmas presents and have violent smash stampedes every "Black Friday:" how well do you think people like that will react when there's no food left in the stores and all the Food Stamp cards don't work anymore? What will people, who have -zero- wealth beyond fancy, useless toys, do? Kill, steal, loot and burn.

3: Tribalism. America is full of disparate racial, ethnic, social, religious, and cultural groups. Many of these groups do not get along very well, and already express this lack of congeniality through the frequent use of violence. With no cops, no Fire Dept, and plenty of frightened/unarmed victims from "Them Over There" to choose from, this situation will deteriorate very quickly. Under these kinds of circumstances, large portions of every major city in America would burn to the ground after being stripped to the bones.

Basically, any scenario lasting beyond 90 days (and probably much less than that) quickly devolves into the Balkans.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

boink

Seattle has declared the defunct Sunny Jim plant as a semi permanent homeless encampment. probably better than the roving Mcnicholsville, named after our last mayor.

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

snowy

This is one thing I was considering yesterday as well. I'm completely set up for preserving food (canning in particular, the others to lesser degrees), but I really need to learn how to can over an open fire. I'm pretty sure my hubby knows how to; he's done more cooking over an open fire than about 90% of the population.

These thoughts are also an impetus to get started on my backyard wood-fired oven. I don't want to live without pizza. A world without pizza is not worth living in.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Willravel

Snowy: I've made jarred single-serve fruit pies before which can be frozen for many months and then reheated to a delicious state. I see no reason why the same thing cannot be done with pizza. You'll just need to make sure your jars can take a lot of heat in order to get the crust right, and it may not be precisely the same when reheated, but it's gotta be close.

Actually, jarred pizza could be a good business...
Well yes, I figure that, but my thinking is that it wouldn't violate my personal ethics to own a tool created for the express purpose of killing animals to eat. It may seem silly, but it's who I am.

hunnychile

Zeraph, honey you are just too paranoid. Why do you feel the hoardes are gonna come after you with guns?

Right now I'm dealing with a blizzard and possible loss of power in 18 degrees cold. I worry about my elderly neighbors and those who are diabetic. I check on them daily and pick up staples for them at the store whenever I venture out to the closest store.

Reality Check Time. Do you really think there would be civil unrest and that you need a bomb shelter??? WOW!! I sorta feel bad for you. Fear is noway to live. It's unhealthy.

Have some faith, bud. Keep it real dude.

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

The_Dunedan

Because when things get bad enough, that's what people -do-. See NOLA, see Serajevo, see almost any area where a major Natural Disaster has ploughed through and all the Inbreds have decided to -take- their "entitlements," since the Gov't isn't around to handle the dirty work.

Neither of which has anything to do with how people react when there's been no power for two or three weeks, grocer's shelves are empty, it's 10F -inside-, and the AFDC checks/cards stopped working.

I mean this in all seriousness. Good for you. Everyone should be so lucky as to have neighbors like you. However, none of this bears on a far more dangerous situation: what will you (or your diabetic neighbors) do when the store and pharmacy shelves are empty? Katrina showed us just how quickly that can happen. Now: imagine that there -is- no "unaffected zone." Where will the fresh water come from? The food? The medicine? When there -is- no Bailout coming, or when the Bailout comes at gunpoint? D'you grasp the difference in what we're discussing here? Or when the Crips, Bloods, Aryan Nations and MS-13 control all the aforementioned supplies for twenty miles in every direction? If you're Female, you have at least one thing they -might- take in "trade" for staple supplies...or they might just take it and then deny you or kill you. If you're male, you either join up or die. If you're the wrong ethnicity, you just die. That's how Reality works in places outside our nice, neat, WASP-y world here in the US and Canada. You want to see how a post-TEOTWAWKI USA would look? Hope that you get Bosnia, instead of Rwanda or Liberia. And if you don't think that America's inner cities can turn into Soweto or Sarajevo or Monrovia in a -big- hurry, I suggest you go for a walk, unarmed, through the poor areas of any city in America. You will learn the error of your thinking in a very short period.

Reality Check Time. In the US, Welfare Queens with -zero- wealth beyond flashy toys literally -kill- one another over Christmas shopping. What the screaming Hell do you think will happen when those people, with that mentality, suddenly find shelves empty? The same thing that happened in New Orleans and Los Angeles.

So is Pollyanna-ism. Good way to die when a "neighbor" kills you for the Ramen in your pantry. Think it can't happen? Look at NOLA. Living in fear is stupid. Living in denial is stupider.

---------- Post added at 01:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 AM ----------

Separate Post:

Always think, for preparedness terms, in the Five B's. The Five B's (5B) are the only things that will be tradeable in a true Collapse scenario. These are the things people will kill, raid, rape and loot for, because these are the things which carry value no matter the circumstance.

Beans: Food, or the means to produce it.

Band-Aids: Medical equipment, the means of purifying water and alleviating pain, and the means to conduct surgery or disinfection.

Bullets: Weapons and ammunition: the means to defend Bullets and Band-Aids.

Booze: Intoxicants, of whatever type or fashion. Alchohol, marijuana, "powder" drugs (esp. Cocaine and Opiates, which are also useful as an anesthetic).

Broads: Pussy. Men (who typically form most of your head-crackers/trigger-pullers divisions of any society) will do and trade a -lot- for a good ol' fashioned roll in the hay. Conversely, they will go to extraordinary lengths to secure Pussy by violence if nothing else. Ladies, this is why you should be stocking up on #'s 1-4.

These are the things which all societies trade and depend upon. These are the -only- things that will be worth a damn in a true TEOTWAWKI scenario. Gold and "junk" silver are helpful, but only insofar as a working economy exists to process/trade them. Beyond that, all that matters is the Staff Of Life. Beans, Band-aids, Bullets, Booze and Broads.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

boink

your painting a picture of life not worth living.

I'd rather head for the hills, even if I were to die going toe to toe with a wolf or freeze to death, get gangrene from a cut or something, I'd rather be off alone than live with the foul breed of humanity your describing. Alone in the Wilderness (if you've seen that) is the way to go.

I have a hard time picture this...I live across the street from a lake. plenty of water there even if I did need to boil it. the neighborhood is wealthy very wealthy, ( I'm in a cheap little basement apartment ) two gated communities within a 5 min walk, Dale Chihuly's house is a 15 min walk away. up on the hill to the north is a large gay community and to the south is a largely black community, mixed with pockets of gentrification.overall I'd say the "work together" community as larger than the "kill or be killed" community.

I'd like to think being prepared for any kind of breakdown would be more slanted to being useful and helpful rather than geared up for killing. and I also think if you focus and plan for total kayos- brother against brother, you'll get just that.

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

The_Dunedan

Too late: you already do. Look at any surveillance video from a Wal-Mart on Black Friday. Look at what happened in NOLA during Katrina. Hell: come look at my neighbors.

This bunch waited all of eight hours after their own kin: a mother, father, and 8-year-old boy, were wiped out in a head-on auto collisions before they started stripping the house. When they got caught hocking their dead relatives possessions, (guns, jewelry, electronics, appliances, the works) they rolled on each other and accused everybody down to kindergartners from their own families of the crimes. Every 6-8 months, one of them robs a relative in order to feed their Meth habits or their desperate need for the latest Call Of Duty videogame. Go to any inner city or White Trash small town, and you'll find plenty of the same. Go to Monrovia or Srebrenica, and you'll see how thin and frail is the line between simply -robbing- neighbors, and raping them then killing them and -then- robbing them.

People are people, where they were borne makes no nevermind.

All of which are full of people who expect to get what they want, when they want it, -as- they want it. RIGHTNOW. These kinds of people will -not- do well when they have to either fight (hard) or work (harder, with their actual hands) for what they need to survive.

None of which, within the context of 21st Century American culture, is accustomed to actually working for much beyond their next paycheck.

None of which does you jackshit for good when the "kill or be killed community" (ie MS-13, Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, Aryan Nations, Hell's Angels, Mexican Mafia, or freelance Asshole Looters) decide to help themselves to whatever isn't nailed down and destroy whatever is. Again: if you think people like that don't exist, in large and well-armed numbers, go to any major city and take a walk in an area where your skin-tone doesn't match the local majority.

A good mindset, and useful/helpful...until the aforementioned Assholes decide they'd like to make use of your usefullness (or pussy, or asshole, or food, or fuel, or labour, or wife/kids) but would rather not feed you or compensate you. Those who beat their swords into ploughshares will plough for those who didn't. If this is your plan, better cozy up to a few neighbors such as myself: otherwise you are a large, conspicuous, unprotected target.

And history (both modern and not-so-modern) shows that Total Chaos is, in fact, what you will get under the circumstances under discussion. Better to have a thing and never need it (STOMP kit, FN-FAL with 10,000 rounds, gas-mask, Egress Plan, etc) than to need it and not have it.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

LordEden

I am not prepared, I barely have enough supplies I could survive a week right right without stocking up.

One day (soon I hope), I want to be as prepared as The_Dunedan. I've talked about wanting a place that I could classify as a "hobby farm" (gardens, cooking/hunting/preserving equipment, local water source, livestock), but I am no where financially able to take that huge step.

I am no means a tin-hatter, but what Dunedan says is correct. Shit might not hit the fan next week, but when it does, it's going to be BAD. People are stupid and do very stupid things when frightened/scared/hungry/ect. Hell, people do stupid things when awake. Two weeks ago there was a fight at the midnight opening of Toys R' Us by two older men over who was going to get some toy doll that was popular. Two men... fighting... over a doll for a kid. Now take that kind of stupidity/desperation and times it by 1000, that's what you would get what would happen when basic society breaks down.

I for one would not like a society ending event to come about but I'd rather be safe than sorry in that event. Standing around saying, "Gee jolly shucks, I wish I would have bought a gun and learned how to use it, it would have ben so very helpful. We are mighty hungry around here and gosh darn it, the costco is all out of food. Oh well, guess I'll just swing this old table leg at the roving band of armed thugs who are about to kill us and hope they go away. Kids, just give grandma the last of the sleeping pills and put her outside. She won't wake up after since we ran out of her medicine. Now, go say by to good old rover, he's going to be our last dinner before we pack up everything we can carry to try and find shelter and food somewhere else. Let's go!"

Writing that whole sarcasm filled rant made me realize... I haven't made a Shit-Hits-The-Fan plan. I got a zombie apocalypse plan, but that wouldn't be the same type of plan. Hmmmm... I better get to work on this.

*****

I would go and write every last check I could to all the suckers who thought that "someone" was going to fix it in a few days. I'd clean out hardware/gardening stores and walmarts. Seeds, medical supplies, guns, ammo, hand held tools, gas, trailers, everything I would need to start farming and growing my own food. Scam the big corporate stores, people are going to try and steal money in the beginning cause people are stupid. When they realize that all the money/jewelry/useless shit is worthless, then I will hopefully have enough ammo to shoot first and not care about questions.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

boink

well, I'm only familiar with that from the news, thankfully, there are no wall marts near me, the only one I know of is about 45 min drive. I know there are some scumbags within reach, but sounds to me like you live in an overall rougher demographic than I do. where are you, I want to avoid it !!

heh, we had a Koles (sp?) advertise they were going to open at 3AM on black Friday...heh, whatever, I was sleeping til noon as I do most days off. I did happen to go shopping on Black Friday this year though. looked just about the same as any day though. it was a small shopping center about 5 min from the University of Washington though so I dunno...educated people a little more chill about holiday sales ?

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

ASU2003

The crowds at the beginning of black Friday (the crazy, ravenous ones trying to save $100 on a TV by waiting in line for 8 hours) would pick stores clean of every supply and reserve in half a day if people knew that there was no police, no security, no hope for re-supply.

The_Dunedan is right, except that there are plenty of white people who would turn violent in TEOTWAWKI situations. And we would form gangs or small military like units to control sections as well. I think the military personnel would stay on base and protect it using the equipment they have, while trying to start a sustainable community inside. Being able to help them would be the best case to survive, yet they will have food growing problems as well for the first few months.

I'm not sure having a farm would be the best plan (unless it was next to a military base). It would be kind of exposed and stationary. I'm not sure if I would be able to survive as a GypFugees or MZB. I think we need to read up on how to survive in the wilderness, even when other humans are actively hunting you for whatever supplies you have.

Living on a sailboat might be a good option if you are self sustainable with water, fish, and reserves of food + multi-vitamins. If you could survive the first year, I think things would quiet down.

Willravel

I learned a new word today: TEOTWAWKI. It means the end of the world.

The_Dunedan

Awesome! Keep it going, it sounds like you guys are off to a great start between you. As for Pizza...yes. I agree. Should the world collapse, what are we talking for an 18" Pepperoni and garlic hand-tossed? Got a price in silver or ammo or sides of beef? Maybe a few folks to watch the place while you sleep or train people: pay a few guys in pizza and (off-duty) beer to keep an eye on your backyard?

Look, I think I should clarify something here. I'm not saying that people won't be able to continue living in a civil society after a catastrophe such as we're discussing. My point is that whatever happens, any society which survives long enough to regain or re-invent civility will be put through a period of severe trial. Those societies which do not so survive will become as extinct as Rome. Echoed in history, recalled at the edge of myth, but gone nonetheless to dust.

I spent a year living in the Czech Republic, and during my several visits to the Czech countryside at the invitation of my country-boy roomate, I got a good look at how the rural folks out there lived.

A basic home had a house which fronted the street or road, behind which was a 25-40 yard long by 10-15 yard wide back yard. There were usually two long walls with overhanging sheds down each side, and at the far end was a barn closing off the rectangle. Inside this large courtyard, you could find fruit trees, gardens, chicken runs, wood-fired bathtubs and showers, rabbit-hutches, herb-baskets hanging on the south-facing walls, wine- and cider-presses, moonshine stills, cannabis plants of a particularly disastrous local variety, goats, pigs, sheep, and even in one case a tired old coal-cart horse who was living out his well-earned retirement eating apples.

My roommate once said jokingly, but with the relaxed Czech expression that means a joke is a little serious, that "If terrorists come or something is bad in Prague, it's ok. We got to Moravia."

After seeing his hometown, I believe him. They had everything they could need: farms, processors, butchers, breweries and distilleries, food and drink and even a little local hospital. Everybody already traded favors and barter goods and rounds of drinks at the pub for other goods and services alongside the usual "cash" economy. It was the Czech way, and it served them well. Those people will survive nothing short of nuclear annihilation or invasion by Russian Bear Cavalry.

That's what you want, the ideal endgame for a social collapse or worldwide natural disaster: a cohesive group of people who co-operate to everyone's mutual individual benefit. It's just wise to account for the possibility that it might take a lot of work and a fair bit of bloodshed to distill something like that. The Czechs and Slovaks I met and visited were already there. People, even college kids, went "home to the country" a couple of times a month with their families and/or parents. When mushrooms came into season out in the woods and parks, much of Prague outside of the tourist district became a ghost town. When I explained that the people who are now my neighbors possessed three or four acres of land apiece and didn't even have gardens, the unfortunate Czech person on the other end experienced what I once saw described as "a paradigm shifting without a clutch." They simply didn't understand this: three acres and they'd done -nothing- with all this bounty? Even in the city, people grew herbs and tomatoes and cucumbers in window boxes on the south sides of apartment buildings or up on the rooves of nearly everything. Even office buildings had window-boxes sometimes.

The US is possessed of a far less resilient society. Less than 2% of our population lives on farms: our enormous urban beehives are supported mostly by equally enormous agricultural combines like Monsanto, which are highly vulnerable to economic and climatic disruption. Unlike Prague, which is supplied in basic staples from relatively nearby farms owned by families or small local businesses, no large American city is anywhere near close enough to a food source large enough to sustain its' population. Also unlike Prague: no major American city becomes a virtual ghost town on the weekends (as Prague, Brno, Mlada Boleslav, and virtually every other big city) as people of all ages head to the country to relax by cutting firewood, tending gardens, making cider and eating some home-cooked Soul Food Back Home With The Folks.

The unfortunate fact is that American culture is simply not as stable or sustainable as that in other countries where people have had it harder, survived, and remember the lot of it. Only a tiny minority of Americans have any idea how to really feed themselves. A somewhat larger, but still very small minority, know how to make raw materials into things people actually need to survive. There is very little true sense of community in America I find, because a true sense of community is built through shared struggle and hardship, and very few Americans yet know what real hardship is. When you find yourself at dinner with regular country folks who've killed and butchered and souped and made truly delicious a chicken from their backyard (while you waited and drank with the Menfolk), or been gifted with ten pounds of fresh sausage from somebody's pig Back Home, you know these people can survive anything. There is very little of that kind of thing left in most of the US. In order to recover civil society, it's going to take a re-discovery of that kind of mindset, and because the United States is an enormous neo-Roman instant-gratification orgy it may take quite a lot of very hazardous living as well. We even have a poster here on TFP who, besides admitting to being so radically unprepared to deal with Life as to not even posses a fire-extinguisher, has stated flat-out that in any civil disorder or collapse scenario he intends to become a looter/rioter, and that in the event of natural disaster he intends to sit on his arse and wait for help to arrive: although I suppose if the Help took its' time a riot would break out which he could join. There are an awful lot of people out there with that same mindset, and that worries me. People like that turn into MZB's in a big hurry.


Before It's News

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"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

mixedmedia

I've been thinking about this subject tonight. Personally, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't last long in this kind of environment. If my children were still young and with me it might be different...I'm pretty sure it would be, but my youngest is eleven and I don't see a scenario like this evolving within the next 50 years or so if ever, barring unforeseen natural disasters. But anyway, that's not really my point.

One the one hand, I understand the survival instinct - that need to feel prepared and to survive if and when everything falls apart. I do. Even if I'm too effete and spoiled by the persistence of privilege to feel it much in myself, intellectually I am aware and have considered that it's possibly folly to think that our cumbersome, top-heavy way of life can just go on and on and on indefinitely.

On the other hand, I can't help but think that those who will be the most prepared to maintain their autonomy by force might ultimately be the ones we have the most to fear from in the 'new world.' Most particularly when it comes time to organize again, as would happen no doubt. I don't mean to be provocative or insult anyone, it's just been on my mind tonight. It may be naive to believe that society would never completely fall apart, but it would also be naive to think that authoritarian power from 'the haves' might not once again become a problem for the 'have nots.' Can't say there's not a precedent for it.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

StanT

I've got to ask, how you doing with those Y2K supplies?

Still got lot's of ammo stockpiled from the "Obama's gonna outlaw guns" run on ammunition?

There are plenty of more probable disasters to be ready for.

Wes Mantooth

I wouldn't say I was prepared at the moment, I barely have enough food on hand to last through tomorrow, no first aid kit of any sort, I don't think I have any bullets on hand...hell I don't even carry any kind of cash or valuables...yup I'm pretty much fucked.

Actually I probably wouldn't hang around here anyway if things were going that far south, my family owns a lot of land in some pretty secluded spots and I'd probably just head there assuming I could during a full blown catastrophe. There is plenty of shelter, loads of hunting, fishing and soil for farming, arms, fresh water (natural well and some stocked) and a butt load of canned food we switch out every year or so. As long as it hasn't been destroyed beyond recognition or use from a nuclear or biological attack I could probably make a go of it there for a while if I needed to, I have before.

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Walt

While you all have been stockpiling food, water, women and medicine, I have gone a different route.

9 foot long, 35 lbs bear spear? Check.
Face paint and motorcycle body armor? Check.
Purple feather boa? Check.
Would I look good with a mohawk and Rollie Fingers mustache? Double check.

I have designed and am ready to implement a two-pronged strategy in the event of the apocalypse (though, if I get bored, inclement weather will be a good enough excuse):

1) Be awesome.
2) Take your shit.

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Calmer than you are...

ring

I hope GH's offer is still open:

"After the apocalypse, Ring and I will ride around on motorcycles having adventures,
fighting deranged mutants and searching for potable water.



I will keep her alive for as long as possible."

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...#ixzz18KY9Ep3w

mcgeedo

It's been educational reading the thoughtful posts above. Thanks to every one who contributed. Personally, my feelings run along the lines of Dunedan, but I'm not as prepared as I would like to be.

One poster said that he/she didn't expect any sort of apocalyptic event for 50 years or more. That surprised me a little. I'm thinking more like the next 5 years or so. What are others' thoughts on when such an event might occur and what might cause it? I'm inclined to think that a global financial meltdown sometime in the next 5 years might precipitate such an event. I have read that there is only a 10 day supply of food in the average town/city. Without transportation to replenish (never mind the source of the replenishment) there would be food riots leading to generalized anarchy. I kind of doubt a left/right split in a vein similar to the Civil War. I think most people are too politically complacent.