ZombieSquirrel

I like to watch How I Met Your Mother. The main character drives me a little batty, but NPH is totally worth it.

Anyway, last night’s episode had a plot line centered on one of the main female characters, Robin. Robin is a very headstrong and independent woman and never seemed to make the men in her life feel needed. She could take care of herself and thus did not need to rely on a man. The episode centered on Robin and her feelings toward her female coworker who had a very innocent and childlike personality. The men were drawn to the personality and the lead male character even dated her. Robin was threatened both professionally and personally by how this woman seemed to gain attention by being so needy. I too can be annoyed and even threatened by the little girls of the world who try to use their innocence as an advantage. Also, I have felt like the bad guy for not coddling these girls like everyone else in their lives.

As a young girl I was always brought up to not need a man. My mother felt it was important for me to feel this way and I am thankful. In my youth I never understood why my female friends would swoon over boys. Why would they giggle? Why would they follow them around like puppies? Why would they blindly agree with whatever they said? Most importantly, why do my female friends still do that? This is probably why I don’t tend to have a lot of feminine friends.

I was once told bluntly by a man, “You don’t need me and I need to be needed.” (That was evident by the women he had dated before me.) I actually felt pride in this. It’s true, some men find my self reliance refreshing. I’m low maintenance and can survive on my own. There are also men out there who need caregivers. (As was the case with M, who I dated for nearly 4 years.) I pondered what sort of people were attracted to me and in turn, to what sort of people was I attracted? I don’t tend to need to be in a relationship. Sure, it’s nice and I do enjoy it, but I don’t actively look for a partner. I’ve been in very few substantial relationships, because it’s not a priority for me. It's not me making excuses for the lack of dates. I get asked out, a lot actually. I get hit on. I just don't seem to care. I’m sure some of you will argue that this is a front, but I will be honest and say it’s not. That’s what has worried me before. Why do I not need it? Why am I satisfied with only myself? I enjoy physical love and have enjoyed being in relationships in the past, but am perfectly content without being in a relationship. These are questions that I can only answer myself as there are many layers and subtopics that I am still trying to decipher.

The questions I pose to you are:

If you identify as masculine, do you search for/attracted to a stereotypical feminine personality for which you can be a caregiver? If so, are you intimidated by those who do not need your care?

If you identify as feminine, do you feel as if you need a masculine persona to take care of you? If not, do you feel as if your independence is a detriment to finding a mate? (If that is even what you seek?)


Relationships are weighing on my mind lately, not for the relationships themselves, but the end results. I want offspring, but have questioned if I want a partner.

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KirStang

There's something attractive about a woman who knows how to handle herself, like a co-equal who doesn't need you (thrill of the chase maybe?). If memory serves me right, men generally prefer women with masculine characteristics. Indeed, I find a friend who's independently wealthy and educated, who also likes to shoot guns, jog, rock climb, etc. to be very attractive.

On the flip-side, there is something nice to be needed or wanted....

But. I find that I am more attracted to the masculine type of women rather than the feminine types. Needy types, IMHO tend to make me feel burdened and tied down. My 2 cents.

Meditrina

In the past, I have been in both types of relationships. The guy I dated before my ex-husband made me feel that I could not do anything without his permission, which then made me feel I *needed* to be with him. Then there was my ex-husband who was like a child and needed me to take care of him, the house and the kids. Now, I find myself wanting something in the middle. I want someone who appreciates my independence and can also do things on his own . This person would enjoy doing things with me, not necessarily for me. I do not know if I am explaining it right. I want an equal partner. (which I may have actually found )

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tasineah

wait ...wait....wait...WAIT! feminine does not equate needy and submissive and weak. I am a Missus...strong, dominant and FEMININE. VERY feminine. I lotion my body and wear lace and apply make up and slip on boots with heels and buy pretty corsets and bras and never go without painted nails and my hair is my shining glory...I have a softness about me and my femininity is my charm, but I am not submissive, I am not weak, I am not needy and I resent the inference that to be strong I have to be considered masculine.

I can be womanly and be strong in character. I personally dont need a man. Nor a woman.

But I can make them need me....

snowy

I got by on my own without a permanent male fixture in my life for several years. My mother raised me to do things for myself, and I'm still comfortable doing that--however, I do acknowledge that there are things around our household (and in general) that my husband is better at taking care of. It's not that I can't do these things--he's better at them. He gives me so much shit for this, though

I do like being taken care of, though, and I have a relationship where who takes care of whom depends on a variety of factors--there's a lot of give-and-take. For instance, last night my husband wasn't feeling well, so he snoozed in his La-Z-Boy and I made dinner and brought him tea. This morning, he was feeling better, so he got up early and made me coffee. He's also cooking dinner. Tonight, I'll set up the coffee and the morning oatmeal before we go to bed.

And monetarily: unfortunately, I don't make enough at my current job without my husband's earning power. Sad, but true.

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ring

..and therefore masculine? Wut? These characteristics you speak have not a whit to do with
feminine or masculine.
Unless somehow you time warped us back into some 1950's pleasantville
nightmare of stereotypicals.

I am so damn tired of this. When will it end?

tasineah

:::looks over at the voice of sanity:::

ZombieSquirrel

I apologize for more poorly crafted question. I was not insinuating that being feminine was weak or submissive. An innocent girl like quality could actually be powerful as it can be used for someone to gain power over another. I've seen it before. I was also not meaning to say that masculinity was not the definition of strength.

I had a difficulty posing the question as I did not want to alienate anyone of a different sex who identified as masculine or feminine. I believe by putting it in those words I am already causing you to think a certain way. Gender roles are pretty vague these days. I try to speak in universal terms whether I agree with them or not.

With using a television show as an example, I was trying to create a conversation about what this all means in today's society. I forget that people don't ask questions, but merely roll up there sleeves to attack people's views. Did you ask why I felt the way I did? I know from my examples you infer that I am heterosexual, but in this specific post I chose not to include my relationships with women as I felt I was not clearly making my point. Including that information would have clouded my post. Also, I was basing it off of a television show that clearly marked stereotypical gender roles and used a hetreosexual model.

So what confused you by my post? What did I infer? That needing a man makes you submissive? It could be argued that no, it does not make you submissive. Co-dependence is genderless. It was my fault for using an example not seen by everyone. The girl in the show that had the role of innocence and childlike qualities was not submissive at all. Nor would I say she weak.

Also, I definitely wouldn't say that the male character exhibited any strength.

In my own personal life I have been challenged by what I want in life and if I have to rely on a certain stereotypical gender role to meet certain goals. Whether I categorize myself as masculine of feminine, and what that actually means. Who am I as a person? What value does this definition of self add?

Inadvertently my post asked others to ponder what it really is meant to be masculine or feminine. I don't wear corsets. I rarely wear makeup. I like sports. I speak crudely. I don't think that these traits are necessarily masculine. Nor do I think corsets and makeup define femininity. For biological purposes, I am female. I have not been able to define whether I am masculine or feminine by societal standards placed upon me. I also can't do so sexually.

Sometimes people use the anonymity of an interent forum to try and work through some issues. They may be brought to light by an interpersonal experience or something as trivial as a television show.

I tend to not post a lot outside of the silly forums to avoid people who get offended and jump to conclusions without asking questions. I always appreciate those who ask, "What did you mean by..." or "Did you consider...."

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Xerxys

I like women with whom I can connect with and generally complete where I fall short. This would mean investing heavily emotionally for the both of us because I have zero maturity in that field. She would have to be completely sophisticated and well learned. I can take care of the bacon as long as she takes care of spreading the class to my offspring, if I ever have any. I guess I want a mixture of both.

Off topic ...

Actually, it does. A male with these characteristics would be labelled "feminine." It's not a slight against womanhood my dear. It is merely just an expression. Just like shoes in romance languages are prefaced in a feminine manner. Doesn't mean women should be stepped on. Just how language developed over the years. To not take it as what it is meant to be is to imply that ZombieSquirrel hates women.

Can we end the pedantic soap box now then and get back to the question at hand?

KirStang

Nevermind.

amonkie

I think you are asking a valid question, ZS.

My approach in my life has been to learn that I don't enter relationships because I need someone in my life, I enter them because I want to share my life with someone.

I didn't come to this conclusion right away. I have lots of caretaker tendencies, and have slowly had to learn through relationships going awry that my version of caretaking does not equal mutual respect. It does not equal a healthy relationship for me.

I tend to disregard gender roles out of neccessity - when my toilet breaks at 2am, I'm either going to attempt to fix it or call a professional. I know what is within my limits, and I've enjoyed the challenge of taking on tasks and challenges that in our society seem to be not the first inclination for women. Then again.. I love being in the kitchen too. Its all about whether you are living life for yourself, or whether you feel like you have to "play the game" in order to accomplish something.


In my personal experience, many people I encounter think gender roles are what's expected of them, whether they truly feel that way internally or not. Its a tough question to ask and search through, because part of that process will alienate you until you find those likeminded in their own views.

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tasineah

point...counterpoint...thank you for letting me have a chance to address you properly...

---------- Post added at 06:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------

well, he shouldnt...again, its mysogynistic...the way to degrade a man is to call him a woman. He isnt being called feminine because its a good thing..he is being callled feminine because its a bad thing...

historically...want to tear down a man? Call him a woman...

on with the real show....

KirStang

You're confusing male/female with 'masculine' and 'feminine.' The latter two words are associated with what is deemed socially suitable for members of gender. In other words, certain things are associated with 'masculine' and certain things are associated with 'feminine,' depending on what is culturally assigned to it.

Do you associate guns with feminine?


If you do more power to you.

ZombieSquirrel

Tasineah, I have thoroughly enjoyed this open communication. I agree with you whole heartedly. It's a rough thing to talk about gender and sexuality. There are too many variables. It's such a personal issue because everyone can speak on what it means to be a specific gender.

Amonkie brought up a point that I failed to address. Women also have a need to be needed...to be the caregiver. It's all in how you look at it.

I wonder if these questions were posted elsewhere...how would the response be. I find that TFPers tend to be intelligent thoughtful beings with a good sense of self and society. We can all agree that different backgrounds would respond differently. TFP attracts a certain type of person...although each individual has different layers.

I would like to find a different venue to be able to ask the questions being addressed here.

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amonkie

ZS - I wonder what the reponses would be on a relationship or wedding forum - asking the women their reasons for selecting their soon to be husband/or partner.

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tasineah

ZS...thank you for accepting my apology. I think asking the questions without bringing in the sitcom would help. It threw me. Most of those shows are based on neanderthal notions of gender based roles.

This is a very important topic for me because I am drawn to and have loved people who are blended genderwise in one fashion or another. I would love to see a good thread on this!

Plan9

This is an ambush thread designed to catch me or what? My reptilian brain is already formulating numerous responses.

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Baraka_Guru

Much has changed in recent decades. I think the core issue is that it comes down to the individual. You are going to find the "submissive" female who wants a man to take care of her, and you're going to find the man "who's still attached to his mother." As you've seen, you're also going to get the charged language regarding these issues.

I know females who want (and maybe need) men to look after them; I know females who know---for a fact---they don't (my grandmother is one of them and has been for decades, while my other grandmother was one of them until the day she died).

I also know males who would probably be way, way worse off without their wives. This mainly because I knew them before they met their wives. I also know males who are so independent of their wives/girlfriends that these women are almost completely absent from my view.

I agree with this only to an extent. Masculine and feminine are problematic words today, mainly because of the advent of feminism and all the developments regarding gender and cultural studies. Today, they're best left as generalisms, which are problems in and of themselves.

Actually, it's much more a case of misandry than it is misogyny. But misandry still remains---largely---a "non-problem" to most people.

Like this.

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tasineah

:::crooking my finger with a long pink nail:::

Willravel

Needy women are a huge turn-off. While I understand that occasionally a woman likes to have a shoulder to cry on and welcomes healthy emotional support, I absolutely do not believe women are somehow inherently weaker than men and require special care due to their gender.

ZombieSquirrel

That's why I had a hard time writing this post and was too lazy to try harder.

These words have been defined years ago and there is resistance to any sort of bending or additions to words. Especially words that are used to describe oneself.

You have to take into account both genders and transgenders...that then opens up a whole new discussion.

I'm always annoyed by defining, but I think that's just what we do. I need to get over myself. In a quest to define, yet not define, I just cloud my perception of myself.

I think I should just stick with petting kitties and watching shots to the groin videos on youtube.

Sorry people with hangy-down parts:

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Plan9

So good.

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"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

I think I got nailed with a claymore labeled *Girl Power.*

The_Jazz

And somehow women are immune to this? Completely and utterly untrue.

If you've ever been around female athletes, you'd know that outside of competition and practice they tend to be overly feminine. Watch women basketball players, track athletes, soccer players, etc. It's something that transcends any specific culture since you see it equally with Kenyan distance runners, Chinese soccer players and American basketball players. They're all equally afraid of being seen as too masculine.

I think that you'd also find that the vast majority of people everywhere (my guess is upwards of 90%, but that's a guess) would find it very upsetting to consistently be mistaken for the other gender or have some confusion about which gender they are.

ZS, I think that if you take a step back and try to look at that statement through genderless eyes, you'll see how inherently flawed it is. There are lots of woment that don't feel that need. There are lots of men that do. Western cultural history has evolved within the past few decades to allow those individuals that do or don't feel compelled to nuture to follow that instinct. I know several gay and lesbian couples with children with a stay-at-home parent.

We ALL feel the need to be needed in one way or another. I'll go so far as to say that those that don't feel that need (whether it be as a parent, fire support squad, teammate, neighbor, friend, etc.) are social outcasts. Trying to draw a gender line through that human need seems pointless.

In other words, don't imply that dad loves the kids less because he's not home all day. There are other forces at work, not the least of which is economic.


Needy people are a turnoff.

But your point about women who manipulate emotions and gender roles for a desired response is well-taken.

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StanT

My wife and I are both very independent. Plenty of "want" and desire, very little "need".

I find needy women to be a big turn off, I already have a dog. Yes, I still grab stuff off the top self and open jars on demand; but she has a foot stool and a jar opener. Stuff gets done just fine in my absence.

Cimarron29414

It's difficult to enter this thread because I fear it will go the way of the battle of the sexes, redux. It's really already there.

I think one needs to find a mate who complements them. It's nice when your weaknesses are nulled by a mate's strengths, regardless of gender.

I will offer that I am extremely irritated by the dumb blonde routine. As I work in IT, I hate when I get the support call which starts with "I'm so bad with computers. Gosh, you are SO smart! I could never do what you do, blah, blah, blah." It's patronizing and I'm certain that act is used in other areas of the person's life. While this type of support call and act typically gets placed by a female, I have had it occur in variants with males. It is irritating regardless of who plays the part. As a tip, don't do that to your IT support people - they hate you for it.

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ASU2003

I think the Breyers Miggs personality test needs two additional letters. One for dependence and independence, and one for love and hate.

I watched the episode last Monday, and it is true. I wouldn't want to be with a girl who doesn't 'need' me. And I think that this is a bigger problem than people think. A lot of guys are brought up with Mothers that take care of them, and they want to do something to protect and provide. That is what they know subconsciously. It might not be PC, but it takes a lot more work or different people if this balance isn't present. Some people can deal with it, while others can't.

ZombieSquirrel

I agree. On my rugby team it seems at if the "straight girls" tend to be overly girly off the pitch in order to combat any sort of assumptions that if they play rugby, they must be a lesbian. Then that opens up a whole new topic of discussion.

I think this need to do so would be more stressed in a female athlete that is in the public eye.



I agree. I generalized. Thanks for pointing that out.


My original intent was to not create a battle of the sexes. I probably should have been more vague with my question and not include gender terminology at all. Also, it would have been better to stay away from negative words such as needy.

What drives a person (of any gender) to be drawn to an innocent childlike persona? Does the caregiver need take over?

What draws a person (of any gender) to be drawn to a caregiver persona?

ETA: yeah, poor title.

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

AWESOME! Someone saw it! I need to get a link from hulu in case anyone else wants to watch it.

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Xerxys

Is this some sort of inside joke cause I really am missing something. How did willravel make a point about women who are manipulative? Not trying to start a flame war but I just don't understand your last statement Jazzy_Boy.

Spoiler: www.megaupload.com/?d=4R049KCI

The_Jazz

"Needy" women generally try to manipulate people with a flood of tears. It's one thing for it to be occassional because, let's face it, for whatever reason women cry more than men, but when it becomes a constant thing, it's used as a tool to get the listener to do something, if only to agree with the cryer.

Get out more, xman. This is stuff I learned as an 11th grader with social skills approaching the square root of negative 1.

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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ZombieSquirrel

Ok....so I never learned this and I think that's why I posted this thread, although lacking in focus. I actually would get reprimanded for crying...by my mother. She said it wouldn't get me anywhere in life. Not a lot of emotions were displayed in the ZS household.

Emotions happen...people cry...others comfort. When someone lets it happen multiple times and they get their way as a result, one starts to think it's manipulation.

I don't feel I should be called a heartless bitch for not coddling. It's possible I should be called a heartless bitch for the mean things I say about Eden.

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Willravel

This is true.

Xerxys

Women cry? Only girl I know that does is my four year old niece. I have a workmate who rolls her eyes at everything I tell her to do. She just doesn't believe in teamwork. I should get out more then, I guess.

On another offtopic note, my friend was telling me how much of an asshole he is and I told him about my sis. My sister has TONS of friends. And by friends I mean people she actually hangs out with on a regular basis. She constantly tells me about the stupid things they get up to and the major arguments that they have which boggles my mind. This one time she told me about how they got together and went to a bar only to get trashed and have one of them arrested. You see, I don't know anyone who behaves like that. I have no idea how one would get themselves arrested save not appearing in court for a traffic violation.

So if social skills means completely avoiding criers then yep, I got none!

ASU2003

I don't think needy females are a turn-off. Now, it shouldn't be taken to the extreme of having to tie her shoes or something. But I don't want to feel like she doesn't need me and can leave for someone better the next day.

But, the show also had NPH try to pick up chicks while being a needy little boy and even he had a very hard time being successful.

inBOIL

I'll admit to having a gut-level attraction to women who look or act innocent; I think it's a result of having a protective instinct. There's even a sexual attraction under certain conditions - the 'corrupt an innocent girl' fantasy fits into this. However, I'm extremely annoyed by incompetence and neediness, so if the rational part of my brain doesn't steer me away, the annoyance factor will.

I imagine that independence being intimidating to men is largely a concept constructed by independent women to make themselves feel better; I think it's rather that the lack of an essential attractive feature (innocence) renders many women undesirable to those men who require it.

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Lindy

My grandma says "Some cry because it hurts, some cry because it works."

Lindy

mixedmedia

Reading through this thread, I see a lot of generalizations that are not particularly useful. All women athletes try harder to be feminine, women who cry a lot are manipulative, caregivers (and those who need them) are weak...I don't think it was anyone's intent, but that's what you come away with by the end of the thread.

I think one of the most delightful things about being a (mostly) free and autonomous adult is having the ability to find out who you are, accept your characteristics and desires and to grow within your own entirely unique persona. That's not to say that everyone is growing and not reliant upon ugly characteristics such as selfishness and manipulativeness, etc., certainly those people are out there, but when discussing these roles and characteristics in general it's not very instructive to speak of these things as necessarily negative or indicative of bad character on the part of the people who do them. It kind of shuts down the discussion for many people who might feel indicted by one those generalizations.

Fortunately or not, I'm not one of those people.

I am and always have been a caregiver. I cry fairly easily. I can live alone, but I prefer to have a male partner. Sexually, I am submissive. For the first time in my life I have a man who provides all of our household income (while I go to school) and I like it. I clean the house, I prepare (and serve) the meals, I pack him a lunch everyday, I make the cocktails (:-p)...I'm just like June Cleaver except I listen to rap and talk like a sailor. I would even dress like her if it were practical, but it's not.

I am going to school to become a nurse, something I wish so much that I had thought of earlier. It is the perfect profession for me considering my personality characteristics. For years I tried to implement characteristics above within different contexts (regular jobs, mostly secretarial) and found it to be unsatisfying. In fact, just like there are people who use a ruse of weakness to manipulate people, there is also an ilk of people who try to use and abuse people like myself.

So, that said. I am an uncompromising feminist, it's how I was raised by my mother (who has also turned out to be a caregiver...much more than I knew as a child). I am independent-minded, meaning I have many opinions and am not reluctant to share them. I have an avid curiosity. I'm a problem-solver and a good person to have around in a crisis. I'm comfortable around all types of people. Characteristics such as these are not usually thought of as congruent with the others that I cited above, but there you have it. It's the paradox of becoming exactly who you are and not apologizing to anyone for it.

So that is my message to you, ZS. If it feels good and still allows you to grow into a free and autonomous person, then do it. All the questions about male, female, masculine, feminine kind of fall by the wayside when you think of yourself holistically and without the restraints of cultural/societal expectations.

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snowy

Great post, mixedmedia.

I have similar feelings about where I'm at--as stated earlier, my husband makes more money than I do, and will probably always make more money than I do, but that's okay because that is what enables me to do what I really want to do. I work on average a little less than 40 hours a week right now, with my Tuesdays and Thursdays mostly off, which allows me to do the housewifely stuff I also really enjoy. I like that balance. And in the bigger picture, it's also a balance: I take care of him, and he takes care of me, so we're square.

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ASU2003

I don't care if a woman makes more than I do. It has to be providing emotional needs or creating opportunities for the guy to do things for her. (although it shouldn't come off as demanding that the guy do something for her).

Cat_Eyes

Oh, I did see that show.
I try to watch How I met Your Mother and Big Bang Theory.

The Question: "If you identify as feminine, do you feel as if you need a masculine persona to take care of you? If not, do you feel as if your independence is a detriment to finding a mate? (If that is even what you seek?)"

When I was younger I did pride myself on not needing anyone. That I could open my own doors and pull my own weight at work. As the years go by I've realized a lot of people like doing things for you and it's their way of showing you they care or even out of plain courtesy and not a jab at my female "weakness."
I compromised and allowed people to do some things for me. Not all, never all. I still take some small pride in a little independence- I do know why I wanted to be seen as strong but that's for a whole 'nother topic.

So, while I wanted to be independent and used to think I was happy alone, I have changed into someone who can except help in the way it's offered without it feeling like a hit to my self esteem- which it felt like to me then.

I do/did want someone who is masculine as in strong of mind within themselves *self?*, yet someone who can push me in certain ways or hold me up at certain times. I also want to be a strength when needed. Not just there but There. ~If I said that right.
Not a soft to my strong complementary type relationship but a dance in power.