Hektore

Yup. Just got a knock on my door about two hours ago.

Neighbor has a busted up rear bumper, just noticed this evening, he's not sure when it happened, car has been parked since "very early"(his words) Wednesday morning. He called the police, who came and poked around looking at other cars on the block, found the car I've been driving the past two weeks (not mine, more on that later) which has dinged bumpers on all four corners also said there was black paint on the bumper (his car is black). Cop said 'he dunnit', ran the plates knocked on my door and said "you did it, there's no doubt in my mind". Filled out an accident report and marked it un-reportable and that's where we're at right now. Now, I went out and looked at the bumper, there is no black paint on it, there is black showing but it's the plastic under the paint where the paint has been removed.

Important detail: This all takes place in Pennsylvania.

I want to take some measurements in the morning, but the guy moved his car to his garage already and there's no guarantee that he'll let me see it.

And to be clear: I did not hit this guy's car.

Now as for how the cop ended up on my doorstep. Recently my wife's grandparents went into a nursing home, we moved in to their old house so it wouldn't have to be sold or vacant (insurance on vacant houses is very expensive). So happens, they also had an old car, which I borrowed about two weeks ago because my car is not currently roadworthy (malfunctioning, not accident damaged.) The other half of this is they drove it way longer than they should have, which is why there are dings on all four corners.

Basically, because we were parked within a block of each other, within 3 days of when this happened, they're saying it's my fault. I wanted to tell the cop to go fuck himself, but I knew it wouldn't get me anywhere.

So...any advice?

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The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

Pearl Trade

Looks like you're jolly well fucked if the cop is saying there's no doubt in his mind that you're the guy who did it. It doesn't seem like you have much to your story either. I believe you when you say that you didn't do it, but to someone else (your neighbor/police) it looks like a perfect match. I think you need some solid proof, although I doubt you;'ll have any. Good luck, bro.

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Xerxys

Go to court and present pictures. Take EXTENSIVE photographs. While filing for the lawsuit (and do this very soon) ask for permission to take pictures of the other car. Sounds like your neighbor is a victim of hit and run and is being a douchebag. The only way is to present pictures and explain how it's unlikely the dents in your car could have inflicted the damage your being accused of. There is no way a bumper could have been taken off and the other end only be left with mere dents.

SecretMethod70

Unfortunately, this is a civil matter and only requires a preponderance of evidence. It'll probably be cheaper for you to just pay the damages.

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Wes Mantooth

Wait how can the cop be sure that you did it? I'm no chemist or legal scholar but it sounds like there is no way if this was contested the court would rule against you, its all circumstantial. I'd tell them all to fuck off and if they have a problem a judge can decide....

...yup a complete layman's opinion but don't let a cop and a douchebag neighbor bully you into taking responsibility. If they're going to try to dig into your wallet make them earn it by proving it in court.

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SecretMethod70

That's the unfortunate thing Wes: a preponderance of evidence means that they don't need to prove it was him beyond a reasonable doubt, they just need to prove that the evidence shows it is more likely true than not. A police officer's testimony and no other evidence to point to makes it pretty likely they would rule against him.

I'm no lawyer though, so I reserve the right to be entirely wrong.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Wes Mantooth

See that just seems like extortion to me. Neighbor gets a hair up his ass, finds somebody to blame, lazy cop thinks it looks "bad" and suddenly he's responsible for something he had nothing to do with. Again I'm no lawyer either but it seems like there has to be some recourse for the accused besides what amounts to proving he didn't do it. The whole thing sounds very unfair and kind of crooked.

I'm not disagreeing with you because I don't really know either just opining I suppose.

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The_Jazz

At this point, you need to do nothing. Really. And you really don't need to worry about it at this point. Fuck what the cop says. It really doesn't matter at this point.

The important thing is that the car isn't yours. From that I'm assuming that you're not paying the insurance on it. Assuming I'm right, it's up to other owner to get to the owner and the owner's insurance company, because insurance always follows the car, not the driver (more on that in a second). Even with the police report, which really doesn't amount to much in this case since the cop didn't interview you nor do much of an investigation, you're not necessarily liable.

Now, if you want to be personally proactive (which is probably a good idea), then you want to do 2 things. Talk to your relative about the insurance for the car and BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER go see the insurance agent to explain what's going on. You probably want to start off explaining that you think it might be a scam, because YOU DO THINK THAT, RIGHT?! If you can't see the agent, call the insurance company together and explain the same thing. You want them to just fill out the paperwork to put them on notice just in case something ever comes of it.

Then you want to call your own insurance agent and do the same thing. Just tell them that you want to file a "notice-only claim" and that you don't expect it will ever come to anything because you didn't do anything.

Then go back to your regularly scheduled program and see if the other party ever does anything. They need to file with their insurance company.

Essentially the cop has said he suspects you but can't prove it. That means, to an insurance company, that they can't prove it either. If they could, you'd have been arrested for hit-and-run.

Chalk this up as one of those weird incidents in life and don't worry about it unless something else happens. After all, you didn't do anything and have an insurance company willing to fight to prove it for you.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Jetée

This seems all too familiar, and I don't want much part in this system of an unfornate event (accusation).
Preponderance of evidence, as Smeth states, pretty much can ruin any one individual's day (week, year) if they do not have a lifeline in law enforcement or procedure.

My best of luck goes out to you, Hektore, whether you try to allay concerns or just plain ignore the problem, what I'm sincerely hoping is that this issue doesn't go the way it has happened numerous time on my own account, which is to say being ganged up by so-called witnesses and law enforcement officials on a case of "supposed wrongdoings" has had me paying through the nose, offering undue apologies, and left me feeling dirty over something I had no part of and in, in the first place.

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Lindy

Why is this an important detail? You never expanded on it. Is there some peculiarity with Pennsylvania insurance or liability law?

Otherwise, what The_Jazz said is the way to go. CYA a little bit, tell your insurance people that you think you are being scammed. Then it's your neighbor's next move.

My old AMC Eagle got "hit and runned" while parked at Sam's Club a couple of years ago. Once I got over the feeling of being violated --and that's exactly the feeling I had-- I decided it wasn't worth pursuing. Maybe your neighbor will get to that point in a few days.

Lindy

Hektore

Lindy: Insurance and vehicle laws vary from state to state, what's true in Nevada may not necessarily be true in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure how much difference it make make if any, but it could be a lot. Therefore, I mentioned it.


Jazz: I contacted the vehicle owner this morning and they notified their insurance company already. They(the people not the insurance) want to talk to the officer who filed the report tonight, which I'm starting to think may be a bad idea. I don't see how in any circumstances it would help anything, and very probably will just make it worse. I talked to the other car owner this morning some more and compared dents in the car. He is actually a decent fellow, his wife and I even attended the same college (though not at the same time). He told me he is going to submit the claim to his insurance (this sort of thing is covered for him) and that's the end of it as far as he is concerned. Whatever his insurance company decides to do about it I will have to wait and see.

The only other thing I did was head around the block looking for other cars with similar dents. I found six, including one on a car of the same make/model/color as the one I was taking to work. I photo'd them all (it is a public street...). I think I may do this a few more times as there was only about 1/3 the number of cars as would be parked there on a weekday.

My only serious concern at this point is I'm listed as being involved in an accident I wasn't involved in on a police report. I have no idea what to do about it though, maybe I can make an appointment with a public defender.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

dlish

make sure you time stamp your pictures when taking snaps of other cars in the vicinity

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The_Jazz

Hektore, you're right - up to a point. On a couple of fronts, actually.

First, the state does matter, but in this case, since you're not in a "no fault" state, that's the extent of it. You were right to mention it.

You're still doing your insurance carrier's job for them. Actually the car owner's insurance carrier. Keep it up if you want, but realize that there's someone else who knows what they're doing who will get around to it, and all you've done is save that person some work.

I'd say your gut is probably right about speaking to the officer. If he seeks you out, talk to him. If he doesn't, don't. It's up to him to prove something, and he's after a criminal case, not the civil one between you/car's owner/your insurance companies. Follow your instincts.

If they've filed with their insurance company, it's up to that company now to decide what to do. They'd need to have a pretty bullet-proof case under the circumstances since you're not admitting liability and there are no witnesses. If you get a letter from them, you should forward it on to your insurance company. If you haven't already, I suggest that you contact both the car's carrier and your own so that you don't get tagged with a late notice. That can protentially prejustice your carrier against you (although probably not under the circumstances) but you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain if you get ahead of this with the folks YOU PAY TO TAKE CARE OF THINGS LIKE THIS FOR YOU. This should not change your rates one iota since there's no actual claim and, in my opinion, no real chance of one happening. From what you described, there's not all that much damage here, so we're talking a maximum of a few thousand dollars. In the insurance world, that's probably not worth the company pursuing since they'll most likely spend more chasing you for it than they'd collect.

Unless you're charged with a crime, you don't need to talk to an attorney.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Hektore

Good news.

The adjuster for the car owner's insurance stopped by this evening to have a look at the damage on the car. He said it was very clear to him that the damage was old and that it should have been clear to the officer as well. He also mentioned this is not the first time exactly this thing has happened with the police department in question. As far as they're concerned there is no way any of the damage to the car I borrowed came from an accident sometime last week.

I guess my only other concern is the report I have. Does anyone (probably Jazz) know if this thing could show up if, say, I ever decide to change insurance companies or buy a new car?

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

Wes Mantooth

Glad to hear it, what a heap load of jackassery all that was.

I guess it would depend on what the report was...and shouldn't it be able to be contested before it goes on your record? A speeding ticket for example only goes on your record if you either pay it or go to court, contest it and lose. If overturned it doesn't count against you, at least I think that's how it works. Wouldn't this be a similar situation?

But judging from my track record in this thread that's probably VERY wrong.

Anyway glad to see you got it worked out.

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The_Jazz

I'm not sure what report you have, to be honest. There are a few different things it could be.

Really, though, the only thing that will show up for a new insurance carrier will be 1) if you're charged with a crime or 2) your current insurance company has paid something over this incident. After rereading everything, I don't see where either of those happened, so you should be free and clear.

Glad to hear it.

Wes, you're on the right track (for a change). If the report is what I'm guessing it is, then it's essentially an accident report assigning liability to Hektore. Driving records are essentially coded, and there's a code for an "at fault accident" in most states (some states a court decides that, in others the police. I don't remember what it is in PA, or if they even track it). But since there needs to be a corresponding dollar amount on the loss report from his current insurance company, there's really no serious impact. Insurance carriers generally see this kind of thing with no dollar amount and discard the first one since it's obvious that it was minor. If it wasn't minor, there would have been a payment. Make sense?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Hektore

The report is an accident/exchange of information report, completed by the officer. It has the vehicle information on it, including listing myself as a vehicle operator. There is a little check box at the bottom for whether the accident is reportable or nonreportable. Reportable accidents are one with personal injuries, sufficient dollar amount damage or disabled vehicles. They must be reported to PennDOT. Everything else is nonreportable, this incident was marked as nonreportable, but my concern is that the record will remain as though accurate, when it is not, since I have not been the operator of a vehicle in any accidents recently.

No charges or payouts yet. It's not been made clear whether or not my neighbor's insurance is going to go after me or my insurance yet, the adjuster who looked at the car I was driving made it clear they wouldn't be paying anything.

Liability isn't mentioned on the form anywhere, though I'm listed as the only driver since he claimed his car was parked.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

The_Jazz

It's a nonreportable accident. No one is going to see it on the insurance side.

The other guy's insurance carrier sent an adjuster out, from what I gather. He told you that it seems clear to him that the damage to your car is old. It seems obvious to me that they're not going after you or your insurance.

Who is insuring this car? You or your relative?

Hektore, you are almost panicked about something that's really not that big a deal. Everything is lining up in your favor. Seriously, chill. You're fine.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Hektore

I know, it's somewhat confusing to reference it all, but no, the insurance carrier for the car I borrowed(my relative's car) sent out the adjuster. I assume that the other guy's insurance sent an adjuster out as well, but I haven't been made aware of anything on that end. They also wouldn't have to ask to look at the car I borrowed because I have nowhere to park it other than on a public street. The last I heard from him(my neighbor) he had notified his insurance, sent them a copy of the police report and that was it.

My relative is the insurer of the car I borrowed.

I was more angry than panicked. It's a bit frustrating to have a police officer knock on your door at midnight and then have him call you a liar and a criminal. Not only that but to know that almost no one will believe anything but what the officer has to say about it.

What I wasn't sure about is if my neighbor's insurance couldn't get any money from my relative's insurance (which is what the adjuster said was going to happen), that they then would come after me personally for it (or possibly my insurance company).

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

The_Jazz

Ok, this is starting to make a little more sense.

At this point, just relax. It's out of your hands. Your insurance adjuster flat-out told you that you're not liable. They're not going to accept subrogation, and if (big if) the other guy's insurance contacts them, they'll just say "nope, not our fault, pay it yourselves."

The other insurance company might decide to go after your insurance company, but the answer would be the same. They can't go after you personally - that's what insurance is for. It's not even a remote possibility - it's impossible.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo