snowy

I won't bother finding the quote that made me think of this article, but if anyone is interested in learning more about animal sexual relations between animals of the same sex, here you go: Can Animals Be Gay?

TLDR: The general conclusion is that same-sex pairings among animals is more common than once thought, as scientists have been presuming for years that animals in couples must be of opposite sexes, without bothering to sex the animals. That turned out to be a mistaken assumption.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Natural manhood

What you're displaying is a typical attitude of those who want to carry on the 'sexual segregation' of males at all cost (and its almost always someone who closely relates with the 'gay' identity, although, I suspect some males who lack natural masuclinity and are dependant on heterosexuality for their 'straight' status, may also have a strong stake in the 'sexual orientation' concept replacing the original 'manhood' concept).

1. First you attack my assertions vehemently.
2. Then you try to belittle the issue by saying this is somehow my personal issue, and the reason why I am raising it here is entirely personal.
3. Then you ask for evidences.
4. When provided by evidences you repeatedly try to ignore them. You try to hide behind what the mainstream western academic and scientific institution propagate.
5. When specifically proven wrong over an issue, and repeatedly so, you leave all of a sudden. But not gracefully after accepting defeat, but only after levelling all kinds of accusations.

Cynthetiq

your evidence is sparse at thin at best, yet you assert there is more evidence but it's been changed.so the target keeps moving and you base your statements on opinion and hearsay and not anything else.

we here like to discuss things in a mature manner and that means we ask that people back up their beliefs with facts and citations. If you don't or cannot, you posts can be marginalized to the point of it being just your opinion.

I think you need to rethink your strategy if you want to further the discussion. You seem to want this to be about winning and not about discussing.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Idyllic

But isn't this precisely what YOU are doing NM, just not the leaving part. I will be self indulgent here by reiterating my post at 120 so as those who only backread 2 or 3 posts get an idea of this so called "debate" and your not-so-intellectually progressive "teachings."

"not-so-intellectually progressive" Of course this is just my opinion based on my experiences and education in life, NM.

Not entirely, and not all species, you make grand general assumptions that are only supported by antiquated scientist who were known to be bias re: sexuality in animals, not to mention you ARE talking about “IN THE WILD” this is why humans have been able to progress as a species in so much that we dominate the earth and all animals upon it, we are not “the wild.”

A “wild” animals natural instinct to mate with a female is so strong that they are DRIVEN to procreate with a female to the extent of fighting to the death for that pleasure, and in the absence of a female they will have sex with another male, or object, be it animate or not, (thank God for testosterone!!!), merely because it just feels so damn good, doesn’t change the fact that the base animal instinct is procreative sex, note the existence and evolution of LIFE. Homosexuality is not an unnatural occurrence, the concept of love is universal between the sexes, both opposite sex and same sex love….. However, the reality of your argument is misplaced in the uncommon, it is not a given normal for ALL males of a species to inherently prefer other males, in species that wish to survive and evolve, that is……

In the wild, did you even consider that male on male sex is a form of practice and game playing among young animals that cannot defeat the superior strength and wisdom of the older animals and are not permitted to mate with the female anyway? You do recognize that animals fight to the death for the right to inseminate the female.

Only the strongest get to mate with the females NM, only the top 15% are the strongest….. Hello, I would think given the opportunity without the fear of being killed by a stronger male or a female who will attempt to not mate with an inferior strength male as typically females in the wild “know” that genetically the stronger males create stronger offspring, biological fact based in observation of the evolution of species in general, you have heard of Darwin, haven’t you?

Sounds like big cat facts, I like big cats, but male and female humans are not felines.

Again, the strongest 15% rule the harems, maybe they use sex as a way of intimidating the other males, maybe they just enjoy sex with the other males, but in the end they come back to the females to procreate, and maybe the reason they do not STAY with the females is because the females don’t want them around as they have a tendency to EAT their young!!! Do you just read things that fulfill your own ignorance or what, I mean I can see relationships between men as more that just sexual, as loving and cohesive in society but your insidious proposal that ALL men predominately prefer to have sex with other men is just WRONG.

If the base natural desire in animals, was for predominately male on male sex from the beginning of history, there would be NO HISTROY, or her story. There would be no animals at all. Look around you, beyond your own box, the world is full of life, and yet you would deny the natural proclivities of male/female “heterosexual” sex as evidenced in these amassed populations of all things that evolve and progress on this earth.

One thought, China has a one child law, and yet their couples marry and have sex and stay together male and female, I would think in a country of so many, had your concepts of sexual preference been a reality, they would not be dealing with the overpopulation issues that already exist.

RARE nm, you said it yourself, again, most females kick the males out as they have a tendency to eat the offspring, or in Sea Lions’ cases, crush, especially the offspring of another male, by doing this the males force the female back into heat so he may mate with her again and/or to procreate his own offspring in the other males place. Sometimes they will kill their own offspring, few animals, outside of primates (and HUMANS), play sex games for mere pleasure alone, it is mostly about procreation and dominance (though it is not outside the norm for animals to just have sex), and I seriously doubt the animals are sitting around worrying about who is more “manly.” RARE males amongst sea lions as to imply only a few of them, NM!

NM, very rarely are male species in the animal kingdoms allowed to stay within the female groups simply because the males tend to be so randy (testosterone induced at male puberty, gets you kicked out) in their amorous expressions with the females. It is known that some male species will actually kill the offspring of other males and/or their own merely to force the female back into heat where she is more receptive to have sex.

The male species can be cantankerous inside confined relationships (true, so can females) in the wild animal kingdoms rarely do long term heterosexual relationships exist (outside of some penguins and birds, etc…), However, it would be hard to have a long term hetero relationship when you are constantly having to fight the next “big” dick on the block for your mate, it is much easier and safer to inseminate the female and then go somewhere away from the fray of testosterone driven procreation in the male species of wild animals.

Again, the matriarchal female of the elephant herd will push the “matured/reached puberty” male elephants out of the herd because they get to randy and they typically do not make good “parental” decisions when it comes to the babies of the herd, females can be very protective when it comes to the herds offspring. Most (but not all) male animals in the wild do not take to parenting well.

hmmmmm lets see; cats, dogs, horses, humans, ah, everything that is still evolving through mammalian birth, can you really be this closed minded, r e a l l y? Or maybe you think these animals are smart enough to tell each other, “yeah you big dumb dog, your not supposed to want to hump that female dog over their, no your supposed to want to hump that male dog over yonder, even though that female dogs’ “in heat” dripping vagina smells like the most incredible thing you’ve ever smelt in your life and your drooling to have her and your willing to kill me (another male dog) and any babies that get in your way, man your one dumb dog”…… I’m thinking most dogs that don’t like to procreate with females dogs reduce their own evolutionary involvement in the world…… This isn’t to say they don’t have sex with each other; it’s just that given an opportunity, they would take the bitch.


Yeah, Yeah, I'm a whore...... So what’s it to you, I’m not ashamed of a word, and I’m not scared of your innuendo. I told you women in the west know what men like you think of us, it’s blatant in your words, and I could care less what YOU think of me. NM, I don’t just like sex, I LOVE SEX with MEN, real men, not your brand of homophobic, gynophobic, backward thinking bigoted, male chauvinistic, self glorifying rhetoric spewing ball carriers such as yourself, does not a “man” make, and you, NM, most definitely are not a male I would consider worthy of my time, I’m sure your relieved.

NM, if being labeled a whore means I like sex with men, give me a frigging sign, I'd march the capital with my "I'm a WHORE" sign if it meant assuring your type of demoralizing mentality dies at my feet so my sons and other young men AND women can grow up without the likes of your perverted "teachings".

Calling me a whore is not a judgment (as you already assume I am simply because I’m a western woman), Calling me a “bad” whore, now that would be a judgment as you wouldn’t know. But I can honestly say, without judging you personally that you, ‘sir’ appear to be one of the worse “teacher’s” I’ve even had the displeasure to hear rant. But I’ll still listen so as to understand exactly how to prepare my sons to deal with “men” like you and be able to teach them NOT to drink the kind of societal arsenic that’s pouring out of your mouth.

That’s because no true scientific scholar would dare desecrate the advancements of society as you are attempting to do with your simplistic and immature, homophobic, anti-effeminate, pro-segregation views of reality. If you can’t find a scholar who has come to these same conclusions, as you erroneously have NM, doesn’t that say something, or do you truly believe that YOU are creating some NEW profound perspectives’ on reality…..

Your thinking is nothing new; it’s just another replication of antiquated conceited, male chauvinistic, self indulgences that have proven to do nothing more than hurt any individuals who buy this kind of societal segregating crap.

This is all about you making a name for yourself as some kind of guru of social equality based on your own skewed views of history where you pick apart logic and attempt to destroy the foundations of sexual freedom because it does not support your interests in perpetuating male superiority, and not just any kind of male superiority, YOUR kind, wherein men are free to control all they purvey via sexual actions alone, using sex as an excuse to support your own brand of masculinity and “hazingish” indoctrinations into manhood.

Your base argument is that ALL “real” men desire a “space” where they can create a social bond with other men, that is completely devoid of “gay” men and women, in general, but that these “real” men ALL also desire to have penetrating sex with other men too, this is your additional definition of a “real” man, going on to add that ALL those men who receive penetration are not part of the “real” man space, regardless of their intrinsic personalities, they are a part of the effeminate male-she gender and should be separated from the space of the “real” man altogether, as should woman.

The “real” man, as YOU define it, is a man who does not enjoy sexual intercourse with women at all, outside of the needs to procreate and that procreation alone is significant enough to prove manhood, whereas masculinity is simply proven by one mans ability to love another man without any sexual receptive penetrations….. This is not based in logic. Two men can love each other, to the complete exclusion of others (2nd & 3rd genders), and live together in their specially created “masculine/real” man “space”, but the minute one of them permits receptive penetration they are no longer a part of your men’s “space”, eventually you will be a lonely, lonely man, NM.

NM, the west is merely a grown up east, humanity began in the east, man evolved in the east, the oldest know human remains are found in the east…… the west was and is a natural progression from the confining mentality that much of eastern thinking still clings too. The west represents not only personal freedoms by social freedoms, I know this must seem scary to you, and somehow you have come to view a free society as destroying to males masculinity or manhood, you couldn’t be farther from the truth, it is in the west where your form of “male” space already exists.

This is why we are so dumbfounded by your argument, because we have already begun to achieve what you seek WITHOUT the necessity of penalizing those who disagree with your views, (whereas you penalize all that is “anti-man” as you deem it, whatever that is, as you can neither define it or even describe it with any intelligent non-subjugational thought), we simply call it personal freedom and continue to progress.

Why do you hate us so much….. we are simply the children of the east all grown up, you come across as hating humanity in the west, as a parent who is so steeped in their own tradition and dogma might hate their own child, that they can’t see the positive future this progression and equality offer them, and when they do glimpse it, they are so afraid of it’s powerful freedom, they crawl back into their antiquated beds and deny it’s very existence or attempt to destroy it, with their jealous undertones as a lullaby in the background. I hope all your young people WAKE UP before you smother them to death with your “real” man brand of controlling, confining and eventually condemning “love.”

I don’t care if you call me a whore…. so what, it’s merely a word you use to try and pigeon hole me or make me feel “bad” for loving sex, especially sex with men, so. If that is what I must be labeled to enjoy my life, so be it, I’m not immune to some of societies more narrow thinkers, I’m just not a party to them, nor do I let them crash my party in life.

Let me explain a little to you about western women, we will take whatever label you give us and use it to promote progressive thinking in our culture, not just for ourselves, but for our children so as they may be free from the stigma of negativities’ that others would force upon them in a means to control their futures.

I wonder if part of the easts’ problem is that you have silenced your mothers, you have removed the ability for your women to have a voice in the creation of mankind’s social evolution, in the end, NM you have no one to protect you whose motives are truly just LOVE…….

I am so sorry for that part of your culture and that those teachings dictate that your children grow up without the strength of that love and that push for education to learn more about the general kindness that dwells within the base effeminate mentality. Peace be with you NM, I hope you find your freedom, as we all desire, just not at the expense of others freedoms. I believe a “real” man would at least TRY to find another way to express sexual reality within a society, one that does not perpetuate inequality as a means to self-promote their own brand of social importance and superiority.

p.s. in the west, we see not only experience as maturity, we also see education as not only a maturing factor, but a factor of true intellectual advancements and progressive realistic thought. The_Dunedan’s degrees don’t merely just expose your intellectual immaturity; they completely BLOW YOU OUT OF THE WATER. You aren’t even in the arena of social acceptance and intelligence as an education like his would denote, hell NM, you haven't even made it into the parking lot.

Your true cause is lost here because it is anti-social and anti-progressive, as well as just plain anti-humane altogether.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

The_Jazz

These words you use - they do not mean what you think they do. You've succeeded in making me believe that your argument, while interesting at first, has no merit at all and is equivalent to a serious discussion of whether or not Superman is a real person.

If you set out to change minds and bring people around to your way of thinking, I think I can very safely say that you've completely and utterly failed.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

mixedmedia

yikes.
I agree with ring.
Move.
You want to live your life the way you see fit? Then live it.
THIS is not living it.
I don't have a terrible lot of good things to say about Western culture. It involves a lot of unfortunate tendencies such as hypocrisy, inanity, silliness and this obsessive preoccupation with individuality that very often becomes the rationality for greed and self-absorption, BUT that said, those same tendencies have enabled many folk to define their own lifestyles and activities freely, particularly among those who are like-minded. Making universal acceptance of 'who they are' not only unnecessary in many cases, but sometimes even undesirable.

It seems as though the axe you have to grind is far more formidable than the actual issue at hand.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

The_Dunedan

Quote:

yeah, yeah, i'm a whore...... So what’s it to you, i’m not ashamed of a word, and i’m not scared of your innuendo. I told you women in the west know what men like you think of us, it’s blatant in your words, and i could care less what you think of me. Nm, i don’t just like sex, i love sex with men, real men, not your brand of homophobic, gynophobic, backward thinking bigoted, male chauvinistic, self glorifying rhetoric spewing ball carriers such as yourself, does not a “man” make, and you, nm, most definitely are not a male i would consider worthy of my time, i’m sure your relieved. Nm, if being labeled a whore means i like sex with men, give me a frigging sign, i'd march the capital with my "i'm a whore" sign if it meant assuring your type of demoralizing mentality dies at my feet so my sons and other young men and women can grow up without the likes of your perverted "teachings".

Quoted for muthafuckin' truth!!! THANK YOU!

GAWD it's nice to see a lady whippin' some ass!

mixedmedia

*raises hand*

I'm a whore, too.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

The_Dunedan

Can I be a man-whore? I like sex with women, so I dunno if I count, but I'll bring a sign and everything.

roachboy

i'm pretty slutty too.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cimarron29414

I'd just like to re-iterate my posts, 47 and 54. That's all. It's been eight days since I wrote them, though it seems like a lifetime.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

snowy

We should start a club.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

The_Dunedan

Something just struck me.

I've been trying to figure out where I've heard something similar to NM's rhetoric before, because it sounded horribly, greasily, familiar. The insistence that "real" men desire sex with other men, that procreative heterosexual sex was something demanded by biology only and should be treated as a chore, that heterosexual men had been "polluted" and distracted by their (subconsciously undesired) contact with women, the disdain for women in general, etc...

...it all came back to me. I remember now. I have heard exactly of -one- person put who these notions forward, and a small number of fanatics who followed him.

That man's name was Ernst Rohm. I realize I may have just committed Godwin-by-proxy, but that flash of realization was too interesting to ignore.

Idyllic

NM, For your pleasure, or not, definitely for mine though....


Note the words, NM, oh, and show this to your "pupils" see how many run, see how many stay, no condescending either, just let THEM choose....see, if they are straight (and honest with themselves) they will want to fuck these females, if they are gay they will still appreciate the female form or at least want their clothes.

We women are not "anti-man" we are pro-man, we "love" men, straight-men, gay-men, bi-men, FtM-men, you see in the end they are ALL our sons, what we want for them IS happiness, and don't even start thinking I don't know something about making a man happy.... you talk about nature and natural, what you see IS nature, IS NATURAL.

Special thanks to all those who have made me feel more than just a piece of meat.... and to SM70 as I had forgotten what it feels like to be sexy just for sexys' sake, oh baby, my husband needs to come home NOW!

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Cimarron29414

You mean we're allowed to Godwin a thread???

HITLER, HITLER, NAZI, SOCIALIST, HITLER, NAZI, SWASTIKA, THIRD REICH, HITLER

I hope this works ,wish me luck!

Idyllic, don't worry. You'll always be a piece of meat to me! Hubba, hubba!

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Idyllic

O.K. Just so long as you call me Wagyu and serve me tartar only.

Oh, so naughty. (nnoooottt!)

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

The_Jazz

Jesus, Cimarron and Dunedan. I wish you two would just fuck and get it over with. You guys aren't exactly Ross and Rachel.

badumpbump. All week, folks. Waitress.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Cimarron29414

Secretly, we want to. But alas, society dictates...

Oh shit, I started it all over.

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice!

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Natural manhood

Rubbish!! Animals can't be 'gay'. Just like Animals can't be 'married.' These are human concepts.

And, neither can the ancient Greeks, contemporary South Asians or native Americans be 'gay' or 'heterosexual.'

Only western males can be gay. And most don't want to.

---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------


That's your point of view. You as a woman have no right to make categories for men.

If you want to stick to your category of dividing men, I'd stick to ours, there are only two kinds of women. normal women. And whores.

Normal women get married and nurse children. The whores (you call them heterosexual women) have 'sex' with men for its own sake. They are promiscuous, loud, they like to control men. They are dominant. aggressive. flamboyant. gaudy, obnoxious, vulgar not very different from the gays.

If it sounds bad, then do consider the power you have given yourself to categorise and divide men on the basis of who is willing to submit to you sexually.

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------

Anyone with a conscience would be startled by a paper by a sholar that claims that in the past, men -- straight men -- so universally indulged in sex with other men, even when women were available all the time. This goes against the grain of what the West propagates straight, normal men to be -- repulsive of any kind of intimacy with males, especially sexual intimacy.

If any of you had any conscience, instead of hounding me out for saying what I sincerely believe to be true, you should have started to do some introspection by now. For, even if my claims are way too exaggerated (yet, they're not!!) ... who am I? Just a nobody, with no power to change anything. But, the concepts about male gender and sexuality that your entire society, with all its technological, political and economical power is propagating ... if they're lying ... they are doing immense harm. I have not even presented all my assertions or evidences, yet you're too quick and eager to brush me aside. All because I challenge male sexuality, the way its practised and structured in the West, esp. male so-called 'heterosexuality.'

It's not that all Westerners are bigoted. Just the ones who tend to fight over this issue, (I exclude you, since you're not fighting with me, like the others here). I wish someone had done a sincere analysis of the sources that I have presented that go against everything that the western male today stands for.


I've said that matter of factly. Believe it or not. Funny you should bring it up. Because, even if you think I'm lying, there is enough 'published' verifiable, material to consider already. And, like I said, I'll keep posting more -- some verifiable, others not verifiable like in a paper, but those who genuinely wants to know the truth, can start to see and feel them, once they change their perspective.

Meanwhile, I wish you'd show some objectivity, and try to analyse the evidences that are there.


we here like to discuss things in a mature manner and that means we ask that people back up their beliefs with facts and citations. If you don't or cannot, you posts can be marginalized to the point of it being just your opinion.

I think you need to rethink your strategy if you want to further the discussion. You seem to want this to be about winning and not about discussing.[/QUOTE]

You call this "mature manner"

I give you evidences that in the West, not too long ago, straight men universally had sex with each other -- specifically, two published materials: by Pierre and Randolph Trumbach.

You ignore that. May I ask, is this maturity or bigotedness.

You ignore the published, online evidences about the origins of 'gay,' you ignore the evidences about


I think, its more that you people don't want to discuss it, but are more intersested in hounding me out.

I see very few people willing to discuss it outside the confines of western parameters, outside the parameters of what is already accepted and holds authority in the West.

There can be no discussion in those parameters, because, then every lie of yours would be shown as a 'fact.' If you genuinely want to see my pov, and consider it objectively, you'll have to stop insisting on western definitions.

I don't care about winning or loosing. Its the bigoted people who get the worse out of me. People like idyllic, who have done nothing but gone on her own trip accusing me of being anti-woman, giving me her opinion after opinion, never even bothering to back any thing up, and not even bothering to consider anything I say.

Even, if you ignore the sources I'm continuously giving, even if these are my opinions, if I create a thread to discuss my personal 'opinion' I would expect people to consider them and give their analysis, not go on their own trip.

Also, I can't stress this more. What I am saying has been said in parts by different western experts, but never put together to say what I'm asserting. So, don't look for a paper that says everything I'm claiming at the sametime. You'll find one source evidencing one part of it, and another evidencing another.

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

--------------

I think this forum has a big disadvantage that I can't posts two different (separated from each other) posts at the same time. Everything is clubbed into one big lump.

Cynthetiq

I don't have much time to back and forth with your response, but I have a couple quick comments.
I can't be objective to just straight opinion. It's not possible in any discussion with educated people.

Please POST your links and evidence again. I cannot seem to locate the few you've made.

Finally, from here I can see that your culture just doesn't want to label it as anything really discussable. Masti for young men as the explanation as to why they want to stick it to their buddy? Sure, maybe it's a phase, no different than college girls experimenting.

But to just not acknowledge that there is a difference based on not bothering to label it is just putting your head in the sand.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

snowy

It's clear that you didn't read the article, because if you had, you would have noticed that the author and scientists alike agree that it's unfair to anthropomorphize animal sexuality by saying that animals are gay, but that yes, animals DO engage in same-sex relations.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

FuglyStick

Are we being punk'd in this thread?

Oh, and people who think yer full of it are not "bigots", mighty prophet of sexuality.

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

rahl

I ducked out of this thread a long time ago but I felt the need to come back and say:
NM, I don't understand you. You have provided no evidence what so ever to back up your opinion. You claim that you would, but it isn't out there because everyone has been biased by the west, well to that I say BS. The reason there is no evidence out there is because your entire premise is completely false. If you feel that strongly about it why not do extesive research, write a paper or book, and see how it holds up to biologists, sociologists, phychologists around the world? If your opinion truely is that ground breaking why not go for it, instead of trying to argue with people on an online setting, where you can't provide any evidence, yet insist everyone else in the entire world has it wrong, but you somehow have got if figured out.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Idyllic

NM, I am a mother of men, I have just as much a right, as a responsibility, to insure my sons have a voice in their world, in that allowing them the opportunity to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS is not only my maternal job but my pleasure in assuring their place as an integral part of humanity altogether.... if that means accepting their preferences for homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, asexual sex and/or relationships, then so be it.

I will do everything within my power to assist in removing the stigmas of those who would judge them merely because of who or how they love...... and then segregate them simply because they feel it threatens their own perceptions of manhood, or masculinity.

Just as by YOUR account there are two types of men, penetrator and those who are penetrated (except you include those who are penetrated as any male who appears effeminate in any manner, even those masculine men who are physically sexually challenged by nature or injury based on their perceived inability to penetrate or procreate, they also are considered part of the “anti-man” society). I do not divide man, YOUR so called ‘teachings” do.

What do you label woman who do BOTH…… we label them humans.

The base definition for a heterosexual woman is simply a woman who prefers sex with a male, it is you who attempts to pervert words to suit your own misconceptions of human sexuality.

The only time my husband submits to me is when I ask for his wallet, in which case, I help to fill it anyways, so I guess in reality we submit to each other in the equality of life and the kinship of responsibility in the rearing of our children. Submitting to each other is not wrong, nor does it define masculine of feminine genders, it simply exposes the true nature of equal respect in one another’s natural strengths and weakness in any relationship.

What a crock of bullshit, straight men can and do have sexual relationships with other men, orgasm alone dictates that sexual contact feels good. Merely because women were available, does not mean they were interested in the sexual act at all times (we are not merely inanimate object sedentarily awaiting the insemination of men). Sexual exploration is not defined within the confines of gender, sexual curiosity is a natural occurrence, again just because a man has a homosexual experience does NOT define him as a homosexual. Nor is any form of sexual interaction considered naturally repulsive (as opposed to personally) outside of those sexual actions which derive in forced unwanted humiliation of another or tyrannical acts of cruelties that only feeds ones self perceived superiority over another, i.e. rape (not S&M), as rape is merely the use of sex to demoralize another human and feed ones own demented sense of self-superiority.

NM, you truly do not challenge anything except the ability for your pupils to see beyond your own stereotypical ignorance, and I for one would not be so interested in this thread had it not been for the fact that you, of all people, hold sexual “workshops” where you spread this form of bigotry and homophobic hate. I feel the unjust and confining sexual “chains” you place on natural sexual inclinations is anti-humane, and it is perverted and perverting the nature evolutions of your own people, especially the more vulnerable and already confused young men in your culture trying to understand progressions in self awareness and sexual freedoms.

As opposed to the ones who sit idly by and allow you to distort sexual progression so intolerantly that you would cast the entire sexual freedom movement back into the days of persecution of homosexuals and perpetuate effeminate inequalities. Your sources are either; persons who persecute anything that goes against their own perceptions of sexuality, are simply homophobes, or just self indulgent heterosexuals who fear that anything that goes against male superiority is “anti-man”, there are also those who are so afraid of their own homosexual desires, and the fear of perceived negative connotations as applied by men like yourself NM that go so far as to deny their own desires and hate homosexuals for their ability to accept and love themselves.

You do mean the sexually and humanely and socially progressive west, right……it’s coming for you NM, whether you try to alter it our not, the “gay” people of your culture are already having their voices heard and nothing you can do will alter this as human nature dictates nobody like to be segregated for who they love or how they love, this isn’t about the west, this is about the reality of human existence, you just need somebody to blame your fears upon other that exposing your own homophobia.

What you teach does nothing to attempt to expose and remove hypocrisy and permit the acceptance of human differences, it merely perpetuates them.

These aren’t western definitions they are merely ascribing words with inherent meanings that already existed but by which in doing so remove the stigma and simple attempt a cohesive understanding of human sexuality. The word “homosexual” is not a stigma, it is the explanation of “homo” = one human gender be it female or male + “sexual” = sex, put them together and you end up with a sex act between two persons of the same gender, big deal, the word has no negative connotations except those YOU apply to it, and other homophobic persons, like you appear to be.

These definitions began in the east and were adopted in the west, the words themselves actually freed sexual inclinations by allowing humans to understand personal sexual preferences as more that just some form of deviation from human nature and instead a natural part of humans' sexual expressions.

Many on this thread have acknowledged the fact of male relationships being more than just homosexual based, I believe it is you who will not consider any possible truths, outside your own self acknowledged, unsupported as a cohesive idea, proposal on sexual behavior, except to say that anything outside of your teachings’ is a part of the “anti-man” agenda.

Now where on earth could I have come to this conclusion about you NM being anti-woman, let me think:

and this:

Let me know if I need to find you more examples of your "perceived" negative view women.

As I have said, this alone should make you stop and rethink you conclusions, go to school NM, get your PhD in humans sexuality, then you can complain when nobody buys what you are selling. As I said before:

{That’s because no true scientific scholar would dare desecrate the advancements of society as you are attempting to do with your simplistic and immature, homophobic, anti-effeminate, pro-segregation views of reality. If you can’t find a scholar who has come to these same conclusions, as you erroneously have NM, doesn’t that say something, or do you truly believe that YOU are creating some NEW profound perspectives’ on reality…..

Your thinking is nothing new; it’s just another replication of antiquated conceited, male chauvinistic, self indulgences that have proven to do nothing more than hurt any individuals who buy this kind of societal segregating crap.

This is all about you making a name for yourself as some kind of guru of social equality based on your own skewed views of history where you pick apart logic and attempt to destroy the foundations of sexual freedom because it does not support your interests in perpetuating male superiority, and not just any kind of male superiority, YOUR kind, wherein men are free to control all they purvey via sexual actions alone, using sex as an excuse to support your own brand of masculinity and “hazingish” indoctrinations into manhood.}

Apparently it is only really appreciated when it supports your opinions, I simply offered you another perspective on the possible realities of history as my college education has afforded me, considering my fields of studies include, art history with an emphasis on ancient pre-written historical art (cave art, venus figues, burial artifacts, etc…), religion as a tool for early cohesive societies, and philosophy as an attempt to move past the confines of religious doctrine and dogma through the developments and understandings of science and biology. But what do I know, I’m just another whore whose sole earthly responsibility is to give birth, nurse and rear young, right.

You are so full of your own self worth that you will continue to deny anything that would teach outside of what you insist, you are the worse kind of teacher who has clung to his own brand of sexual construction as to deny all others and claim that anyone who sees a different pov is either ignorant or simply attacking you. It is not you we attack it is you antiquated perceptions of human sexuality.

Gay Rape, an Untouched and Harsh Reality | Youth Ki Awaaz: Mouthpiece for the Youth

I fear your culture needs to crack down on adult men who have sex with underage boys as a means of satisfying their sexual needs because it defines theses young men, the moment they are penetrated, for their entire lives they grow believing they are klibas (3rd gender, 3rd nature…etc.) because some pederast needed to get his nut off and didn't want to be seen with an adult 3rd gender, or lessen his “masculine” facade by admitting his proclivities to sex with women. Your brand of teachings will simply continue to promote human sexual intolerances which leads to these forms of aggressive sexual attacks on young men.

Homosexual rape, specifically pederast forms of rape has not been seen as a crime by your culture, only rape that involves females. Until now, it will change with this new law!

New Rape Laws May Help Gay Rights Cause - India Real Time - WSJ

It would appear that some of your adult men create and perpetuate the third gender (receptive males) and then are repulsed by them when they eventually accept the physical position of receptive sex that was originally “forced” upon them. I am NOT implying that all homosexuals are “created” by other men, I am merely making a realization that a lot of boys, if not provoked by “teachers” like NM, would be left to choose for themselves their natural sexual inclinations results (heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual, etc.), and if pederasts did not feel the necessity to seek out innocent, unprotected boys for their own sexual satisfactions without regard to the emotional or sociological impact this imposes on the young in regards to removing their inherent right to choose their own sexual development, not to mention the young men are not typically permitted to even entertain sex with females as normal outside of procreative sex. NM, if I were a man and I was not permitted to have “pleasure” sex with women just for the sake of enjoyment but I was permitted it with men as a penetrator only, of course I would have sex with men, what choice do you offer men…… NONE.

The GULLY | Gay Mundo | Gay and Lesbian in India

India decriminalises gay sex - India - The Times of India

So it has been almost a year since “gays” and homosexual activates have had the legal stigma of persecution removed, and now the “gay” societies are allowed to come out without the fear of retribution by the law, it can be scary to acknowledge differences that in a society as yours have been so dramatically ridiculed and altogether denied as anything but anti-man. However, NM, your perceptions and teaching merely continue the ostracizing of humans based simply on YOUR OWN FEAR and IGNORANCE

The west has nothing to do with the easts’ “gay” nation (as it has been their all along) except maybe to expose that segregations and denial in itself of homosexuality is not only unprogressive it is not a necessity in a cohesive society, on the contrary, the “gay” communities are as much a part of humanities inherent makeup as any other, it really does not matter who you fuck, NM nor does who you fuck define you, unless YOU want it to. The west not only acknowledges sexual individuality and the personification of it but also permits freedom for such and even embraces human sexual proclivities and uniqueness as merely part of the human expression of love……

One can only hope that we are Fuglystick, as the thought of this man being a "teacher" and propagating this form of repulsive hate is truly sickening!

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

telekinetic

Dan Savage weighs in on this topic...NSFW language.

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twisted no more

Natural manhood

The Western society, in the matters of male gender and sexuality, and indeed in every matter is controlled by the anti-man forces. They maybe in minority in nature, but thanks to the seeds sown by Christianity, they rule the Western world. And they've left almost no space for a man to actively support the cause I'm taking up, without losing their manhood.

What I've seen again and again is that these very anti-man forces make it a point to hound me out, by hook and crook. That is exactlly what is happening here. It's your space -- the anti-man's space. The real men have no voice here. They won't come here. Even if they do support me, the support can only be very, very veiled. You anti-man forces take advantage of that.

Will you ever change even if the evidences landed up on your face? No, you won't. You will continue to ignore them, to divert the issue, to accuse me, to deny this issue a space. And you're quite powerful. I don't think the fault lies with me. It's inevitable that this would happen.

Does it mean I'm unsuccessful in making a difference through the information I bring?

No.

The information I bring is invaluable. None of you, for all your aggression, have been able to prove any of my assertions, evidences and sources wrong (of course, when I get time I'll give more). The men, the real ones, will quietly grasp what I'm saying, deep in their hearts. And the information will stay with them. Truth has a way -- no matter how much you suppress or persecute it, it will subconsciously influence you in a very deep sense.

So, I know that the majority of men will quietly grasp what I'm saying, maybe partly for now, and then in the years to come, will gradually begin to experience the veracity of it themselves.

It's not only the real men who will be changed after this. Everyone of you, however anti-man you might be, the power of this truth will not let you live in peace either, provided you have any conscience. Somewhere deep down it will keep challenging you, keep reminding you that you're living a lie.

I'm certainly not wasting my time here.

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 AM ----------

And you think you're helping your case with this ...?

Idyllic

^^^I Love Dan Savage, makes me wish I were that one female firefighter....... sigh.

alas, his gayosity is far too fabulous, I could never be comfortable knowing I converted such an upstanding gay man......


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


I am so obviously joking, anyone who takes that comment about converting him serious believes soap operas are real life.

I do really love Dan though, that's not a joke.

It is amazing how much is lost in conversation and jest when one cannot see anothers facial expressions.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Natural manhood

On your trip again Idyllic?

I've decided to ignore you altogether. For someone who doesn't know much, you sure write long posts too.

Come back to me, when you want to discuss what I am putting forth. I am not interested in listening to your opinions, I'm here to discuss what I want. You make your own thread to discuss your views of the world.

Idyllic

NM, I don't think this this was meant to help our cause, it was meant to help support that straight men such as yourself need not to fear that they may actually be gay just because they like sex for sex sake outside of procreation.... sometimes you really make me laugh NM, thank you

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Natural manhood

It's not what they say -- its what people here in general deeply believe in. The perverted hetero-homo divide is deeply ingrained in the Western psyche .

Western scientists and experts have time and again warned against this divide, against the concept of 'homosexuality' as a separate phenomena that occurs only in those who call themselves 'gays.'

But the point is, you and everyone here goes on to ignore this important point they make, and take what suits the western mindset. So, e.g. the so-called 'gays' will take the information that animals are having sex between males, but ignore the point about animals "not being gay."

You yourself used the word 'gay' animals.

Not that the scientists that realise its wrong to call animals 'gay' practise this themselves. On one hand they warn against the practise, and at the same breath, they go on to talk about 'gay' sex or 'gay' behaviour amongst animals.

Idyllic

NM, What exactly DO YOU want?

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Natural manhood

I'm not here to seek personal counselling from you. Thank you.

The net is full of your brand of advice, and its full of anti-man crap.

I'm here to discuss a certain truth that I saw and experienced and have worked hard to develop all the inner strength to bring it up on a western platform.

Idyllic

AND, What EXACTLY IS YOUR MANHOOD????? That it could be so easily lost? What are you really afraid of?

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

telekinetic

No, it adds to the discussion, providing a different perspective on the issue. I don't have a case.

__________________
twisted no more

Natural manhood

I want you to realise the hollowness of your claims of 'sexual liberation.'

I want you to realise that your society persecutes men. It persecutes male gender and sexuality. It persecutes and makes into a satan, manhood. It stops men from reaching their full potential. It wastes their lives.

I want you to realise that all the freedom that your society has generated have only been for women and the effeminate. You've left out the men, and you don't even feel that is wrong.

Idyllic

I am trying to understand you, I am trying, yet you use words that have no true meaning to me and then you won't define them, you just keep insisting I'm a part of something that is negatively impacting you? I don't get it and you are not helping me understand. I am not your enemy, neither is the west.

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Natural manhood

Oh yes. You sure have. Like the rest here.

You sure want to prevent me from discussing this important issue.

Idyllic

NM, I would never leave out the men, don't you get this, I love the men, respect the men, desire the men, honor the men, I marry the men, take the mans name, I am faithful to the man, give birth to the man, raise the man. Why do you feel so betrayed by society when almost all of it is for the man...... I love the man, NM......

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

Natural manhood

If you really, really want to help me. Then just be quiet for a while (and I mean be quiet from inside, not outside). Let all the turmoil that my ideas generate in you settle down. Just listen to what I'm saying, without reacting to every word that I say. Let it all set in. You don't have to agree with it. But you don't have to reject the truth as I have experienced it outright.

Don't assume that I have not heard the western ideas that you are pouring on me, in the hope that I'll change my mind. I was trained on those ideas. I started my work on those very ideas. But, what I've experienced has changed my life, my entire perspective. And is what I want to share.

If you want to help me, then discuss my ideas, and do it more open-mindedly. But not with an 'anti' mindset. You're welcome to disagree, but at least disagree on the points I make. And do stop to look at your own attitudes, knowledge and belief, and be open to change them, if things so warrant.

---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

Listen to the man, when he talks about something that the society doesn't want him to talk about ...

---------- Post added at 09:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 AM ----------

yaawwwn

Rahl. Real the evidences I've provided. They're enough for now.

If your opinion truely is that ground breaking why not go for it, instead of trying to argue with people on an online setting, where you can't provide any evidence, yet insist everyone else in the entire world has it wrong, but you somehow have got if figured out.

Idyllic

Share your experience so as we may understand why you feel the way you do.

I will discuss your ideas fairly so long as they do not infringe upon the freedoms of others in a confining or demeaning way.

Talk, NM, I could care less what society thinks about our words, but our actions must be about progression for all humankind, not one particular gender, it is only fair, agreed?

__________________
you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does

p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.