tres

Lets see, where to start. I'm 28 and she is 37. We have been together for 6months. For many years she has been "undecided" in the children department. When we first met (as odd as it sounds) we discussed children, and that I not no desire to ever have any. We became "friends with benefits". A month or so after that we realized we had feelings for each other and began to date.

Our relationship as a whole is AMAZING! She is by far the best woman I have ever dated. She has her life in order, career, a great sense of humor, our sex life is great, she's considerate (sometimes to a fault!), and we communicate well. My Parents LOVE her and tell me that they have never seen me happier(My parents couldn't usually care less who I date). Clearly because she is approaching 40, its time for her to really decide if she wants children or not, and its been on her mind quite a bit since we are so in love and she knows I don't want kids. Recently I've noticed her nit-picking on things she never had before and while we were only dating 6 months, she lived only 3 miles from me, so we practically lived together. So after talking she told me that she's unsure of our relationship because of my not wanting to have a baby(in the future). I told her that I don't blame her for wanting to leave me, but that its not something I can ever see for myself.

We are now having a very difficult time getting over our relationship as best friends and lovers because we don't have a reason to "hate" each other. Neither of us did anything wrong, we just want different things for our lives.

My father with whom she is very close with called me after speaking with her and said to me the following: "It is my fault you are afraid/do not want to have kids because of the way I raised you and you should really consider staying with her and working it out.." He says that if we truly love each other that I should be able to totally submit to her every desire and visa versa. Saying that if she wants a baby, give her a baby, that you will never be "ready" and that I'd make a great dad.

There are obviously many things about the two of us that come into play. I was not wanted by my mother, and was almost aborted and subsequently my mom was a very selfish mother, and I was raised by my dad in poverty. She was adopted at birth and has allot of issues because of that.

She says that she hates the idea of giving up her life for the "baby" years, but feels at a loss because she doesn't want to go through life without experiencing motherhood. I would give this woman anything she wants, but this is a little different than a vacation, house, car. Children is a lifetime commitment.

I'm sure that there are other with a similar quandary. What do you think of my fathers advice?
Should I be more open to having children, or stick with my current way of thinking?
From everything she has told me, I believe that she truly doesn't want a child, and that its simply because she knows that by staying with me it takes the option of the table.

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"Its better to be hated for who you are, then loved for what your not" --Van Zant

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Hektore

It it were me: I would tell Dad, while I appreciate his advice, he needs to butt out.

This is your decision and yours alone.

Having a child you don't want because somebody else thinks you should is quite possibly the worst idea ever.

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dlish

i was in your shoes not very long ago.

when i got hitched many moons ago, i was all for the idea of having kids. over time, my ideas changed. i became a different person to the one that was married at such a young age, and in time i became against the idea of having kids until i was 'ready'.

no amount of pressure would change my mind. i wouldnt have a piece of anyones' mind. and when people told me that having kids would change my world for the better, i would brush it off.

fast forward 8 months, and that advice was probably the most accurate ive been given. my outlook on life has changed and i look forward to every minute iwth him. i regret not taking my fathers advice - i was an abnoxious cock.

sure, its not your fathers kid, but at 27, you think you know it all. Let me tell you something, at 27 you know shit and dont have the foresight like the older folks have.

ultimately the choice is yours, but dont discount the advice of your family and peers. if you're going to wait till you're ready, you'll never be.

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Redlemon

I understand from reading this that (a) you had a bad childhood and (b) you don't want a child. But is (a) the reason for (b)? Are your reasons for not having a child grounded in reality (there are things that you won't be able to do for a while) or fear (you'll be a bad dad) or something else?

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Cimarron29414

It's a pretty small snapshot of a massive question, so I don't have anything to offer other than my own experiences.

My wife and I were not going to have children. We were travelling all over Europe and we had great hobbies, great dining...generally a very fulfilling life. Over time, we realized that we had amassed all of this knowledge, love, and a life that was big enough to share. So, after some very gentle exploratory conversations, we realized that a child was the greatest adventure of them all. And we were right.

There is nothing greater than bringing a child into the world, raising it the way you want, and sharing the world through it's eyes. You've heard it a million times - it's different when it's yours. That is absolutely true. The greatest sound I have ever heard in my life is the "Daddy!" each time I return home. The love is indescribable.

I can read only a little of your personality out of your post, so I can't say whether you would be a great dad. I suspect that you might just have a lot of fear regarding committing to this woman and committing to a child. All I can say is that being a great spouse and father is a choice. If you want to be a great dad, you will be. If you put your marriage first and your children second you will be a great dad (no, i did not mistype that). Strong marriages create strong children. I suspect the woman you are with will be an incredible wife and an even better mom.

Yes, sometimes you go to Chuck-e-Cheese rather than Rinnaldo's. You'll probably go to Disneyworld instead of Istanbul. Yes, you sleep less and you clean up other people's poop more than you ever wanted to. But, you pass on a legacy. You strengthen your family. You build character, and you teach character. It's difficult, but it's absolutely worth it.

P.S. You also get to relive a childhood with the bankroll to match all your desires. Getting to play unabashedly every night with all the cool toys is so awesome. Anyone says anything, "Hey, I'm playing with my kid." Man, today's modern squirt guns are incredible! Teach charity early. Go to the store and pick one toy for your child and have your child pick out one toy for charity. This will help them count their blessings.

P.P.S. Someone move this to Tilted Life. Everyone knows having children is counter to sex! Not really. Well...

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tres

The whole thing is (a) Do I just plain, not want a child,ie: not the paternal type or (b) Are these the things I need to acknowledge and overcome and just have a kid

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"Its better to be hated for who you are, then loved for what your not" --Van Zant

"Tell me and I forget. Show me and I remember. Involve me and I learn."

Cimarron29414

When you think of having a child, what do you envision it will be like?

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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

tres

I envision the common things that many people fear. Loss of freedom, living solely for the child, the stress that comes with. Deterioration of the relationship with my wife. Selfish maybe...but its how I feel.

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"Its better to be hated for who you are, then loved for what your not" --Van Zant

"Tell me and I forget. Show me and I remember. Involve me and I learn."

Plan9

My first marriage was largely terminated in a cloud of "you don't want to have kids right now so I'm going to cheat on you." That sucks.

It's okay to be selfish, Tres. It really is. You can find a woman who will understand your motivation not to pop out another drooling poo-factory.

Don't give up the prospect of higher education, world travel, and driving a Ferrari at 48 so you can be like all your lame-ass friends.

Kids are a popular hobby but they don't have to be your hobby.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cimarron29414

People choose to live solely for their children. This is a relatively new concept, and it creates rotten children. My wife and I do not live for our child. Our marriage is first. Date night still exists and the child gets good grandparent time.

I can't think of a single "valuable" freedom that I have given up. I think you just realize how trivial the things you valued were.

There will be absolutely no deterioration of the relationship with your wife. She will never be prettier, sexier, or more desirable than as the mother of your child. She'll smile more, laugh more, and be less grumpy. So will you.

To be honest, you will be more tired which usually means less wild sex. However, that's what lunch at home is for - nooners while the kid is at daycare/grandma's.



For the record: It is okay not to have children. It's not a club. It is as big a commitment as you think it is. While I don't agree with Plan9 in attitude, I do agree that there are people who simply believe that having children is step 4 which has to follow step 3. Generally, those are the people who create rotten kids.

Think of the billions of knuckleheads before you that raised perfectly delightful human beings. You aren't any different than them. In most ways you are better because you are entering this phase with forethought rather than "Oops, the condom broke."

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------

...with that cool Tom Selleck mustache waving in the wind as your 328 whips around the blind corners...you keep clingin' to that dream, man.

It's a shame, Plan9, because you'd probably be the coolest fucking dad EVER! Who else would have their kids tac'd out at 6 years old? Who else could have kids that could rightfully call Nugent's kids pussies?!?!

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Cynthetiq

I'm childfree and I choose to be that way. It's a choice that I made in my current relationship early on in our relationship.

Previous ones were all bent on the steps... hook up, after X years of dating, move in, after X years of living together get married, then have kids....

Yeah not for me.

It wasn't always that way. In my younger years I wanted to have a family so bad it tainted how I saw women. I gave up many things because I was stubborn in thinking that if I couldn't do this with MY family (not my father's family) then I didn't want it. This included things like Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.

In my late 20s I learned to appreciate that I didn't take that path. I am now quite happy to be in my 40s and not with any children. My wife and I have a vibrant full life of travel and serendipity.

From time to time, I sometimes wonder, but I'll tell you when the parents talk about us having kids, I remind them of our choices. We live in NYC, it's not a place I would want to raise a child, and quite frankly we love to live here so I'm not giving up living here.

It's your life not theirs.

If my wife changes her mind, which she's free to do, it would suck. But I cannot fault someone for wanting something different in life. It's what makes life, life.

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dlish

ive felt all those feelings and thought all those thoughts...loss of freedom, stress, money, changing relationship, changing as a person etc...

and after all that?

the three of us have just come back not long ago from a morocco-spain-portugal holiday catching public transport and hotel hopping all over the place.

Loss of freedom and all that jazz? .......Life's what you make of it.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Cynthetiq

That's what some friends of mine said also, but you know what that's right now that they are babies.

Once the babies become old enough to go to school, all that shit changes, especially if you pay a mint for tuition or your child is challenged with subjects that they have a hard time in.

Also, people tend to vacation and move within the confines of the school year. I know this because I don't. I vacation on the shoulder seasons when children tend to be in class and pay less for my lodging and airfare.

Here in the states people buy and sell homes in consideration of the school year. They move within areas so that they can stay within the school district or within reasonable distance to the school.

A very good friend of mine is currently driving almost 2 hours to work every day because he doesn't want to change the school his daughter is attending for HS. Once she's done he's got one more to contend with and he's trying to do as little as possible to disrupt his kids.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Redlemon

I missed this part the first read through. I can't draw a correlation between these two sentences. Can you explain that further?
Also, I'd like you to envision two futures:
(a) married to this woman, having a child
(b) no longer in a relationship with this woman.

Which future scares you more?

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Plan9

What the hell? I don't like that vibe at all. It sounds like friggin' extortion. Who cares about what he wants?

How about she imagines (a) herself married to this man, not having a child or (b) no longer in a relationship with this man.

OP said they've been together for 6 months. He doesn't need your A and B, he needs to go find another woman.

Neither party is at the age where they're allowed to waffle on issues like that. That game is for 22 year olds.

...

Sure, it's "Duh!" easy to say that the woman here can go get a man who'll knock her up.

It's just as easy to say he can find someone who doesn't need a human tumor to be happy.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cimarron29414

You raise interesting points, but he asked us to help him sort out how he feels. She is obviously doing the same on her end. As soon as she posts, we will ask her the inverse questions. Until then, we can only help him. It's not like we are turning him to the dark side or anything. There's no reason for vitriol regarding kids. If it isn't your thing, no big deal. No one's pushing it on you, at least not here. I've got 1000s of generations of people to support the fact that there must be something beneficial to it.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Plan9

I wanna be like Cynthetiq when I grow up.

...

Thousands of generations to support it and only common sense to oppose it. Hmmm.

Isn't that what I'm doing? I mean... I'm trying to help him realize he has options. And balls.

Inverse questions, yes. And "dark side" is simply a flavor.

But I don't like kids. Isn't that reason enough? And big deal? Based on overpopulation, economic segregation, education, crime, healthcare, etc... I'd say it actually is a big deal. Maybe not in each case, but deciding to reproduce is a serious choice. You might be able to swing the cost and time, but a lot of people can't or don't.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

I see an interesting "self-sacrificing breeder vs. childfree advocate" / "loving parent vs. selfish individualist" debate forming up. But I'm not sure if this will be of much help to the OP.

I think the tres needs to sit down and really think about what he opposes when he thinks about having children. Past experiences I think are a huge factor. Tres, the decision is ultimately yours, of course, but listening to both your father and girlfriend are important as well.

That said, conflicting life goals can be a dealbreaker in relationships. This one in particular is one of the more prevalent, I think.

Be prepared to change your perspective on rearing a child or be prepared to walk away from the relationship. If she wants a child and you convince her otherwise, the resentment could grow to grotesque proportions over the years. On the other hand, if you have children just to please her, the same thing could happen on the flipside.

Do you spend any amount of time with children now?

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Redlemon

I'm just feeling blunt these days. As everyone else said, I'm trying to reframe his own question in different ways, until one of those reframes allows him to answer the question for himself.

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

filtherton

I'm inclined to agree with cimarron here.

It seems like you've got some sort of "If you want to be with me than you have to impregnate me." thing going on with her. This seems a bit creepy, but given the circumstances- her biological clock ticking down- not all that unexpected.

Is she the type of lady you could see yourself co-parenting with? Back when I was a free agent, I could always tell (or at least I though I could) which ladies I would be comfortable knocking up and which ladies I wouldn't trust to help raise a child. If she isn't mom material (it sounds like she is mom material), then forget about it.

You don't want to have kids. Por que
These are fair assumptions. However, they aren't necessarily always in effect or as extreme as one might expect.

Considering you and the lady seemed to be having a swell relationship, it's quite possible that you'd be able to juggle a kid and free time. Me and my lady each find time to hang out with friends when all of our other responsibilities are taken care of. Sure, I haven't had the luxury of sleeping off a hangover until 3pm in years, but I'm probably better off for it. And you should only implicitly live solely for the child. You should live like the child's life and emotional well being depended on you, because it does. But you should also realize that if you are unable to take care of yourself (including being able to secure your own emotional well being), you will be unable to teach the child how to take care of itself in an emotionally healthy way.

It is possible that your relationship with the lady might deteriorate. It will definitely change as you find yourselves in uncomfortable situations where a life other than your own is at stake. You will probably fight more. But you will also get to see parts of each other that you never would have otherwise and this might make your relationship better.

Is your dad nearby? He seems to want a second chance at raising a kid right, perhaps you could get him to sign on for regular childcare (assuming you're comfortable with that).

Parenthood is frequently stressful, and if you're the type who can't deal with stress, then I'd avoid having a kid. On the other hand, for me the stress of raising a kid and managing my relationship with the kid's mother has made stress derived from many other sources seem a lot less intense. Plus, I've learned a lot about what makes people tick and how to manage fragile people diplomatically (the kid, not the mother- though PPD can be intense).

Cimarron29414

I'm out, guys.

Is it worth having kids? How do you take advice from people who have never had them? Is it worth not having kids? How do you take advice from people who have them? Do what you want.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

girldetective

You are not your father. You should stick your way of thinking. If you would like to change your mind, do that because your feelings have changed not because your father believes you should. Having children is not a right/wrong choice.

What?! You dont believe either of you want a child?! Then what is this all about? Go talk to the woman and help her with her confusion.
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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

*Nikki*

When I was 27 I didn't want a child either. Now I am 35 and I have two!! I got married and my way of seeing things changed. My priorities changed too.

I would say by ruling it out entirely at this point you are really doing yourself a disservice. You never know what the future may hold.