Jinn

I'm really struggling personally giving respect, in any sense of the word, to members of the military. Don't get me wrong, in an abstract sense I respect someone willing to put their lives on the line to truly defend America.

But I can't seem to escape this feeling lately that the military mostly recruits the uneducated or unmotivated to do our "dirty work", ultimately brainwashing them (even in the guise of unit cohesion) into fierce loyalty, unquestioning faith in authority, and the the fact that the US is always right. And interestingly enough, this tends to become conservative political beliefs too..

I know that my experience with military members is probably not indicative of the whole, and the former and current military on TFP seem to largely defy the stereotype. I just have a lot of miltary friends and live in a hugely military city and they all seem to fit the mold.

Recently I met a friend of a friend who was a former Stryker unit leader in the Army, and he made an offhand joke about how a bunch of dead "Hadjis" (Arabs) was a "beautiful" thing. I told him I thought that was inappropriate to say, whether it was a joke or not. He said I couldn't possibly understand as a civilian, and that I shouldn't really question him because he had done far more for the US than I had. He asked me why I was such a pussy, and wanted to know if I was one of those "Obamists" who want to apologize for America.

When I told my friend about it, he echoed the sentiment, and told me I shouldn't question his military friends because I couldn't ever compare to the kind of men they were. My ego was naturally hackled by that attack on my "manliness" and I probably overreacted and told him I was not interested in being friends with someone who would hide behind their uniform or defend those who did simply because they had served. I think I lost a high school friend as a result.

Unfortunately these kinds of conversations are not unique for me and I have been told over and over again that I really have no business talking since I haven't served in the military and because they are out there risking their lives to defend my ability to even make the "cowardly intellectual hippie criticisms."

Should I have let him slide since he was in the military? Am I really less of a man for not serving? Are there some things it is OK for them to do or say since they (admittedly) have probably seen things I will hopefully never see?

I really don't know, because I don't want to disrespect them but I also hate the idea that I can't criticize or even speak because they are such better patriots than I.

How much deference do YOU give members of the military? How much respect do you initially give them?

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KirStang

Respect is not governed by what position a person held, but rather by the person's character. I treat every one with a modicum of respect, and it's up to them to garner more or less deference.

Case in point: Shooting buddy who's an ex army guy. Reasonable and competent. Tons of respect.

Versus:

Ex-marine who keeps talking down to me, saying "Marines ARE the the equivalent of the Army special forces; if I went in as an enlisted-4 marine, I'd be instantly promoted to Enlisted-7." Insta-fail.

Oh and ETA:

People will have different viewpoints. These views are shaped by their life experiences. Although the validity of the viewpoint is questionable, I still think it's worth considering how these viewpoints arose.

laconic1

I have had some similar thoughts lately. Yes it takes balls to join the military knowing you may not be alive at the end of the commitment you signed up for as a result of your commitment but... Yeah I do have a hard time believing that military people should be given such deference and reverence simply because they are in the military. As "unpatriotic" as it is for me to say this many if not most of the military people I have dealt with in the last few years are incapable of thinking for themselves. Many, (honestly I would say 2/3) of the military people are the uneducated, unmotivated people you speak of. No I would not be able to make the commitment it takes to join the military but I do not think I should automatically bow down for someone just because they are in the military, nor do I think they should be given special accommodation on account of their service. I think that this country would still be just as free with a military a fraction of the size of the one we have now, if only we focused on self defense and not nation building and global peacekeeping so I don't buy into the whole argument that we have to thank/kiss ass of every military person for giving us freedom. I treat military people the same as I would treat anybody else on initially meeting them.

highthief

The military in all nations has done this. Come on, if you've got a law degree, are you going to join the infantry? The average soldier is generally young and uneducated, and enter into service at a time when their worldview is quite maleable.

---------- Post added at 05:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 AM ----------

Bingo.

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omegapoint

For the record, I am a veteran of the U.S. Navy. I served aboard a 688 class fast attack submarine. That's right people, at one time I was one of the true studs of the fleet with the coveted "SS*" behind my name.


How much deference do YOU give members of the military?

None. I don't see why I should. Just because someone is in the military doesn't mean they are a superior form of being. With that said, I do respect them for the job they do, just like I respect firefighters, paramedics and other first responders.

How much respect do you initially give them?

The same as any one else who is not a parasite on society.

Whether you were in the military or not, has no bearing whatsoever on either your "manliness" or patriotism. From my experience, your average service member is neither more or less patriotic then the general populace.


As far as the Hadji statement goes, I have no problem with either the statement itself or sentiment behind it.This has nothing to do with the fact that I am a veteran, it's just the way I am.


laconic1 said:

"As "unpatriotic" as it is for me to say this many if not most of the military people I have dealt with in the last few years are incapable of thinking for themselves. Many, (honestly I would say 2/3) of the military people are the uneducated, unmotivated people you speak of. "

I have no idea who you have been dealing with but, to say that 2/3 of the military are uneducated and unmotivated is at best an ignorant generalization. The military is not the Borg, no one is assimilated to the point of being an automaton. This would be counter productive to the job at hand. Uneducated? How many people do you know who can operate a nuclear reactor? or repair a sonar system, a satellite navigation system (I can) or any other complex electronic or mechanical contrivance?. Do you really think that helicopters, jet fighters, tanks, ships and humvees work off of pixie dust?. The modern military is chock full of technically complex equipment that necessitates a highly trained, skilled and motivated workforce. Even the so called "grunts", those brave young lads in the infantry who have their asses on the front lines are by no means uneducated or unmotivated. Think unit tactics. Think integration to theatre wide operations. Think about trying to think while some asshole is doing their personal best to kill you. Now,think about how many people you work with who could handle that and then have a nice day!.


* Once you qualify ships, you are awarded your "dolphins", the breast pin that denotes this. The SS denotes the same thing on paper. Unlike "skimmers" aka targets, qualifying ships is not an option, it is obligatory for submariners. It was made explicitly clear to me (as it was to everyone) on first arrival at the boat that you either qualified or you were kicked out. The exact phrase used was " we don't pass trash,we throw it out".

LordEden

QFT.

Civilian or Solider should be added to that list. Cyn's sig speaks the truth.

I respect anyone serves in the defense of the country I live in. That said, if you a complete asshole to me or anyone around me, rank or not, you are an asshole. I'm not going to bend over backwards to defend someone who acts like a dick because he/she is in the military. I feel the same way about firefighters and policemen. I've met a lot of really good cops/firefighters and I've met my share of rednecks on power trips, same goes with military personnel. Wearing a badge (of any kind) does not give you the right to treat the people around you like shit.

I see this thread turning into a "you hate the military, then you hate the USA, fuck you!" thread, but I could be wrong.

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LoganSnake

It's not just the military. It's the nationalists and patriots as well. You don't need to have served in the military to be pro-country.

I think any form of patriotism or nationalism is, at the very least, silly (to put it very, very, very, very, very mildly). Were I in your situation, I'd have simply turned around and left because arguing with those types is akin to arguing with a religious zealot - pointless.

To echo the others, I give respect on a person to person basis, not by what they have done.

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Glory's Sun

I think anyone who throws out the "I'm more patriotic than you" bullshit proves what type of person they are. You can respect their job without respecting the person.

Baraka_Guru

I think members of the military deserve a certain amount of respect by default, as do those in other types of emergency/critical services such as police, fire, ambulance, etc. (as mentioned above). But I feel there might be an unhealthy level of attention given to them from the general public. It seems at times that members of the armed forces (alive and dead) are often viewed as hallowed members of society, and I think it's applied disproportionately to them in many cases.

I'd just as soon or sooner have just as much respect for certain members of other parts of society—namely, the sciences, business, charity, and the hard "frontline" workers in other industries, such as manufacturing, mining/resources, medical, etc.

I think the situation in the U.S. differs from that in Canada. I tend to perceive the U.S as being quite a bit more militaristic than we are here. We do pay our respects to our fallen, and we take it very seriously, but I'm not sure we're so overt when it comes to treating those in the armed forces as they are in the U.S. I could be wrong. I'm not saying it doesn't happen here; I'm just getting the feeling that the level of intensity differs.

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Plan9

Well-well...

There's a lot of "those guys" and "them" in here. The military is a job to a lot of people, not a career.

Between the challenge, college money, patriotism, and adult day care... it's a good place for young people.

Big Duh: It is demanding and requires a significant amount of time and effort to become a proficient "soldier."

There are a lot of fatbodies and dirtbags in the military. It's more of a sign of the times than the institution necessarily.

I forget who said it... but I believe the quote was: "The difference between the military and the prison system is who has the guns."

...

Think of the military as a forge. It's designed to take raw materials and transform them into a specialized final product. A human weapon.

If you start out with shitty raw materials, you'll get a shitty end product. Charles Babbage's one-liner and all that. Knuckle-draggers.

No secret that most of the raw materials aren't that great. Throughout history most of the enlisted ranks consist of low SES individuals.

But sometimes the forge scrapes off the imperfections and excesses of the civilian world and leaves a masterpiece of a fighting man.

This is not something that necessarily betters society (or even the individual) but it serves a purpose eventually... that thing called "war."

Often there is a cost for forging young men into weapons. After all, it's easier to turn a plowshare into a sword than vice versa.

...

Respecting someone for their job is kinda silly. I admire police, fire fighters, cowboys, pirates, and ninjas... but respect is a little hard.

I respect individuals more than massive, widely diversified institutions. Respecting the military is like respecting religion. It's too broad.

...

You don't have to puff up your chest, Jinn. Every grunt wishes he was a Spartan and every Spartan wanted to be Chuck Norris.

Individuals that use their military service as a master status are not the kind of people you want to hang around with anyway.

They have no soul.

...

It would probably be a lot easier to respect the US military if the civvies in charge of it for the last decade weren't self-serving assholes.

The hollow pseudopatriotic "Thanks for protecting us." bit that many Americans use regarding military service is horribly ignorant.

Slims

Deference...None

Respect.....at the very least you shouldn't shun those who are in the military, spit on them, etc. Whether you agree with them or not, most are honestly trying to serve their Country while bettering themselves as people. I am not implying you owe the Military any sort of debt, but soldiers get trashed a lot simply because they are in the Military with no regard for who they are as people (the opposite is often true as well and is equally sickening).

Sure, the average enlisted soldier is not going to tip the high end of the IQ scale, or hold a PHD. However, put it in context and look at the whole man when you look at a particular soldier:

A lot of these young guys who are 'brainwashed' were on a trajectory of disaster, but thanks to the Military are now working very hard in an honest job and are pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps....just because that person is not particularly educated does not lessen the difficulty of the path he has chosen to walk through life.

I don't know of a single corporation in the world that could take from the same pool of 'employees' the Military draws from and turn them into productive, hard working non-criminals who are able to benefit both the company and themselves. You may find the methods used disagreeable, but they are necessary in order to take people from such disparate backgrounds and turn them into productive members of a society.


As far as your buddies outlook is concerned:

1. You do seem to be a pussy. The fact that you were extremely distressed by your buddies comments but did nothing about it except seek sympathy on TFP points me to that conclusion. If someone says something you feel is so far outside the pale of respectable conversation then you need to call them out on it. If someone calls you a pussy then you have to step up and enter into a conflict of some kind (not necessarily physical) because your 'buddy' decided to straight up dominate you....and you allowed him to.

2. I don't believe the Military brainwashes people into being conservative. Rather, the "make love not war" types typically don't seek employment with the Military, which leaves.....conservatives, or at least people who are willing to enter into a conflict (same reason you probably shouldn't enlist).

3. As far as the comments your buddy made....they are silly and not appropriate, but so what? He was never in a position to do anything but execute the orders he was given. So he went out on patrol and probably got shot at by a bunch of Arabs over and over again. If you honestly believe him to be 'uneducated and stupid' as you stated the vast majority of the Military seems to be, what conclusions do you expect him to arrive at? So if you agree that such prejudices are inevitable when you take an uneducated idiot and put him in that sort of situation then why would you be personally offended when he displays the expected behavior? You might be surprised to realize that the Military doesn't try to force people to change their belief's (that WOULD be brainwashing), but rather puts extremely harsh penalties on prejudicial, discriminatory, or bigoted actions. He can want to see " Dead Haji's" all he wants, but if he starts shooting people who don't need to be shot then he is going to be locked up real quick.

4. With regard to you losing your high-school friend: If you approached him as you approached this thread I am not surprised. Because in this thread you seem to complain that the Military guys don't agree with you but they don't-have-a-leg-to-stand-on because they are all stupid and uneducated. I am Military, and I have a lot of liberal friends (I went to an ultra liberal university). I have been called all kinds of offensive things by people who realize for the first time what I actually do for a living.

People also assume that I am stupid or ignorant simply because I am a member of the Military. I also get told 'how it is' in Afghanistan and how horrible the 'Military Occupation' is and how many 'atrocities' we are committing...by people who have never left the Country and have never met an actual Afghan. I don't pull the "I'm Military and thus know best" card because it is ridiculous and stifles debate. However, I will pull the "I have been there" card. All to often someone will refuse to listen altogether to what I have to say after they initiate a discussion....apparently they expect to be able to hurl poorly reasoned arguments based largely on ignorance without me responding in any way.


Edited to somewhat clarify my response.

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rahl

no more or less than anyone else...IMO

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Willravel

Military folks tend to be pretty good at what they do, which I can certainly respect. They take their work seriously, and generally believe what they're doing isn't just to benefit themselves, but others, which I can also respect. Military people, not unlike law enforcement, can be put in a position where they are in serious mortal danger, and I can respect that kind of bravery.

On the flip side, it's disconcerting that people in the military still think the primary function of the military is to protect America and safeguard the Constitution. That's simply not reflected in the majority of what the military does today. It's also disconcerting that we still allow dehumanization practices in order to demonize those we're (collective "We" as in America) fighting. I can't tell you how many times I've had military or former military friends use words like "Hadji" and less pleasant racial slurs to refer to insurgents in Iraq and Taliban in Afghanistan. I'm deeply troubled at instances of unprovoked attacks on and even murder of innocent people. While these instances are not what i'd call common, they are more common than I think is reasonable. Finally, there's the issue of singing away personal responsibility when you enlist or become and officer, as if you get rid of your independent thinking and free will. I'm frightened that people think it's okay to give up critical thinking because the orders they're given are more important. I've been told the military doesn't work when soldiers are free to question orders, but it's never been tried so I don't buy that claim.

All in all, it's just some folks doing a dangerous job.

Shauk

I treat people as people, not titles.

Some people in the military are douchebags, I will treat them as such, regardless of service or heroism.
Some people in the military are awesome, I will treat them as such, regardless if they retreated from combat

Plan9

My god, I can't stop laughing.

stevie667

this.

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Pearl Trade

I am not in the military, but I believe I know a fair amount through self education. If I'm wrong, anyone in the military (former or present), feel free to correct me.

I automatically give people in the military a shit ton of respect. Mainly because I aspire to join the military within the next couple years. Just a personal thought here, but it seems most people don't think about what they have to go through. They get super low pay. Some are required to leave to a foreign country for months at a time. They're away from their family and children. They get shot and bombed. The mental and physical stress/challenges they face daily aren't anything equal to some of the things we face.

Whether you support the war or not, they deserve nothing less than our respect, or at least admiration. The kind of thing that happened after Vietnam, where our troops came home just to get spat on and hated, disgusts me. I would like to beat the shit out of the people who would even think of that. Hate the war, not the people doing their job.

In regards to the OP's post: Fierce loyalty is required to trust your fellow soldier. If a soldier wasn't loyal, how would he trust him for protection? Not all of them have an "unquestioning faith" in authority. I suggest the books "My War" by Colby Buzzell and "Generation Kill" by Evan Wright. Both books are good examples that might change your mind. On the Hajji joke, he was being shot at by them. What do you expect? I too would harbor some sort of dislike towards the people who shoot at me. The Hajji's he joked about are terrorists. I think a bunch of dead terrorists is beautiful as well. They wouldn't hesitate to kill him and you and me, so why should he not be allowed to say what he feels. So what if it's fucked up.

I believe you should get some more education yourself, Jinn.

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LoganSnake

Share it with the rest of class.

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Wes Mantooth

I think most people have a certain amount of respect for anybody who puts themselves in danger in order to protect others. It becomes a problem when people heap so much respect upon the person or title that suddenly the person or job is above any level of criticism.

"How dare you second guess our mission in Iraq! Our boys are over there fighting for your freedoms! Shut your mouth and show support!"

Anyway I try to personally show respect to most people I meet as I think its just common courtesy. So I guess I would say I bestow the same amount of respect towards somebody in the military as I do anybody else. I guess I've never really put any thought into it.

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noodle

A lot more some days than others....

For example, Megan Krause for admitting that she needed help and encouraging others to seek it out, too.

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Frankie Zee

1) There are no "Ex-Marines." We're former Marine or Marine. Once a Marine, always a Marine. We take that very seriously. Call it brainwashing if you want, I call it being proud of something I've done.

2) I ALMOST understand what he was trying to say here. The Marines put a higher priority on training each and EVERY Marine how to handle a rifle and operate efficiently as infantry personnel. That means that for Marines, your administration MOS's get largely the same training as most actual infantry units. At least at the beginning. Once in the fleet, things change a little as far as the frequency and intensity of the training goes, and you're not learning about small unit tactics and fields of fire, but they try to keep up with the basics. I'm not saying he's right, but I almost understand what he was trying to say. I have known people from the Marines who left because the Army offered them a promotion. One Staff Sergeant I knew left the Marines because the Army was going to make him a Warrant Officer AND let him fly helicopters. The Marines wouldn't do that for him. The Marines also are the only service that requires ALL prior service members to go through Marine Corps boot camp. If a Marine goes to another service, they are not required to do basic training over. Many Marines are extremely egotistical and it's pounded into our heads that we are THE toughest, and best of all the services from before you even sign up. The way he was doing it though, sounds pretty uncalled for.

Back on track: As former military, I still have a certain amount of respect for anyone who puts on a uniform. In the end, most of the people are regular people like anyone else but they're more likely to spend prolonged periods of time putting their life on the line for a war they don't agree with.

True, I've met some real rocks during my time in. I was totally surprised at how many people (guys and girls) slipped through the cracks in boot camp. But the majority of them are just normal people. I fixed infantry weapons so I was never too far from infantry units and the general mentality of those individuals was your stereotypical Type A, egotistical, meathead, jock. But that's not to say these guys weren't smart. I've done enough infantry training to where I can basically call myself infantry, and the amount of training and education these guys go through is staggering. It's not the same sort of education as sitting in a statistics class, but it's no less intensive. And not learning the lessons can mean you don't come home.

Critical thinking is an extremely important part of being a good soldier. Especially in a constantly changing battlefield where the situation changes in literally heartbeats. The problem is the platoon still needs to follow orders as a whole. If you have one person hesitate and say "gee, I'm not sure about this, I mean I didn't vote for the guy, so why should I be here?" that guy has just put the lives of everyone in his platoon at risk. Being able to think critically while still following orders quickly and efficiently are paramount in a firefight. To me, following orders isn't being brainwashed. Neither is a soldier who just spent a year dodging bullets in the Middle-East calling them "Hadji's" brainwashing.

I have actually pulled the "you never picked up a rifle" card on someone before, but it was after a lot of provocation on his part. I'm an extremely laid back individual and it takes a LOT to get me riled up but he called into question and insulted my service in the Marines as to how it related to my current position (he was my boss). I lost my mind on the guy. The gist of my ranting was "you have absolutely no right to insult my service when you never picked up a rifle yourself. You have no clue what it takes, what I've done, or what I'm capable of doing." He never brought it up again...and I still had a job the next day (although I got the position I originally wanted shortly after).

I DON'T agree with someone claiming to be more patriotic just because they served. It's a volunteer force. Plain and simple. I also don't agree with people who demand respect simply because they served. That's just ridiculous.

We're all human, as was stated by Shauk: Some people in the military are douchebags, I will treat them as such, regardless of service or heroism. Some people in the military are awesome, I will treat them as such, regardless if they retreated from combat. My only concern is if the person in question is retreating on orders or he/she just curled up in a ball and dropped his rifle. I don't care how "awesome" that person is, doing that just put everyone else around him/her in danger and is pretty unforgivable.

Sorry for the wall of text, I tend to get wordy and ramble and this got quickly out of hand

Manic_Skafe

I'm sure that umbrella is large enough for them too.

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Plan9

But... but THEY kept you SAFE from TERRORISTS, Skafe.

Manic_Skafe

Dude, did you even listen to the song? They're the the terrorists.

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Plan9

Pfft, I'm a middle class white kid. I have most of NWA memorized.

/threadjack

Stare At The Sun

Personally, I have a lot of respect for ground forces. Anyone that is one of the "boots on the ground" gets some serious respect from me.

Air Force/Navy guys, still respect them, but not as much as the ground pounders.

ASU2003

I think they are used as political pawns too much. If any politician votes down a military budget request, or wants to reduce the size of the military, they are seen as unpatriotic.

I think they are great for fighting against nations that have lots of people who don't like us and want to or have harmed us. I'm not sure the majority of the current military is needed to fight the covert & physiological war to reduce the number of enemy combatants. I have respect for those who are fighting to make the world better, I don't have respect for those who are ignorant and are making things worse.

KirStang

Frankie,

Thanks for the correction.

Daniel_

I always felt that Kipling said it best (as in so many cases he did).

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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Sue

I believe they deserve respect. I disagree with the OP in that not everyone falls into the category of which they spoke:
My BF was in the Marine Corps for 7 years with 2 tours to Iraq. He's a very motivated individual and is well-educated. He was not brainwashed into anything. He gave everything he could being in Marines, and I couldn't be more proud or more respectful of him. To this day he is still working towards a higher degree, holds a job, spends time with me, and is also working on his own house.

Obviously I can't speak for every military member, but my father, my bf, his father, and everyone else who I've known personally has most definitely NOT fallen into your "uneducated and unmotivated" category. I give them respect, I believe they deserve it, and I personally feel that all the other men and women who chose to be in the military deserve my respect as well.

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ring

Going back to the OP.

Jinn has seen the outcome of what military training is,
and has been for eons.

The dehumanizing of the Other, has always been a necessary part of 'soldiering up.'

My ex-husband's son was called up from army reserve, for two turns in Iraq.
My ex-husband was in tears after he heard his son spouting at the dinner table:
"Yeah, those ragheads are in for a surprise."

That was not the Dustin I knew either.

Frankie Zee

No problem

Daniel - I really like that rhyme. Pretty much sums up the majority of public opinion about service members. Keep them out of sight, out of mind until something bad happens.

But then again, we're talking about more generalizations.

Teufel Hunden

Its because you're putting your requirements for respect in too narrow and negative of a light.

This is not true, and you'd know that if you did a little research of your own. Of course you're going to have the people that fit your description in any walk of life, but "mostly?" Not even close. You can't even defend that position it's so far off course. If our military had truly been scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for people to "brainwash (another word folks like to throw around out of ignorance)," we wouldn't be good at ANYTHING. But our military has, and still does, serve as the model for other countries to replicate themselves. We're far too proficient at too many things to be the lack luster group of idiots you'd make us out to be.


I'm sure the members on TFP "just so happen" to not fit the mold and don't serve to indicate the greater force makeup at all. People who live in hugely military cities tend to have a more negative look on the military anyway, justified or no, and in so looking down your nose at the military in town, you fit that mold. Aren't stereotypes fun? But truly, your opinions are no different than most Americans these days. Almost everyone walks around town believing they're better than the rest of the world in some way. "Everyone but me drives like an idiot." "Everyone but me has no idea why they have the opinions they have." "Everyone but me has no idea what's best for this country." Your opinions are just centered on the plentiful military members in town. "Why should I respect these guys? They suck. They're just unmotivated brainwashed idiots with no education and no where near the intelligence I possess! They only exist to do our dirty work."


The friend of a friend is a douche bag and needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. Most of us who have seen combat, especially more than once, don't enjoy talking about it, and when I meet someone who does want to talk about all the gory details, I automatically assume he's just making it all up. But his sentiments are no different than some of the shit being spewed all over the US by that end of the political spectrum, military or no. Since the military has people in it from all walks of life, of all levels of intelligence, etc, of course you're going to have douche bags in it like this guy. But it still isn't "most" people in the service presently.


Your friend is a douche bag too, and you shouldn't feel bad about the "loss." People like he and his friend do us all a disservice.

These convos are not unique to you because the people most willing to "share" their opinions with everyone else are the people with the most "out there" opinions, and they're going to be the most aggressive in doing so. When was the last time you heard about a moderate on the street corner holding a sign up screaming at passers by that, "compromise the is the real answer!" Never. But, how many times can you think of people comparing Bush to Hitler? How about all the people who loved Bush now comparing Obama to Hitler? Its my guess you probably just don't run into many moderate sounding military types because they're the ones not wanting to talk about piles of dead insurgents, Obamists, and all the other crap. I can say that nearly everyone I've served with is exactly like me. We're all low key now, not terribly interested in getting into bar-room debates with people, or conversations about the combat we saw. Hell, aside from my hair cut, I don't really make it outwardly obvious I was a Marine, and I don't have many articles of Marine Corps clothing. I have one nice polo that has some chevrons embroidered on the chest, and that's it. My most blatant showing of having served at all is my screen name.

No. Your friend and his friends are douche bags. They don't deserve free passes.

No. Not everyone is cut out (not meaning that in a negative way) for the service, and should stay out of it altogether. It's a big commitment, and sometimes not being totally committed can get people killed.


Depends on what it is. I give guys like John McCain a free pass for saying in an interview that he, "Hated the gooks." I know a WWII vet who landed on Tarawa and Saipan, and still to this day cannot stand to be around Japanese people, or even hear the Japanese language being spoken. That is also fine. But those men went through HELL at the hands of their enemies. For them to have carried some residual hate over the years is perfectly fine IMO. But your friend and his friend? Absolutely not. Especially if they criticize the president too loudly or have little pet names for people who support him.

You can always criticize people for assbaggery. But your overall opinion of the military being uneducated, unmotivated, and brainwashed is plenty disrespectful enough, so I'm not sure why you're worried about this.



---------- Post added at 01:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

This is actually not true, and hasn't been for a long time. Dehumanizing, IS, however, a normal response for someone in combat. It's why bomber pilots, who cause far more death and destruction than your average rifleman, almost never have PTSD.

While "back in the day," during WWII and the like, it was a big desire for people to go kill some "japs," the term "Rag Head" has never been spoken to me by an instructor or my unit leadership. In fact, in 2003, my commanding officer made a BIG effort to squash any kind of racist remarks made my anyone, and even relieved one platoon sergeant because he didn't like the way the Sgt was speaking about our upcoming mission. The problem with training people to dehumanize the enemy (especially an enemy that looks different than the majority of the people on your side), is eventually they dehumanize everyone who looks like the enemy which is detrimental to the overall mission. For both of my deployments, it was beaten into our skulls that not everyone we're encountering is the enemy. Not everone out there wants to fight us or hurt us. Terms like "haji" to describe the whole people is ignorant, and should only be used to describe people who really are hajis... etc. We went through SO MANY culture awareness type classes, I lost count.

Dustin picked that up from his buddies or from himself. It was absolutely NOT part of his official training process.

World's King

They provide a service.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

ring

Oh yeah? I'm an old Airforce brat meself. (Cuban Missile crisis era.)
My Officer Father spared me no rod,
telling me the worst of his induction/brainwashing days.

Teufel Hunden

Your first sentence explains everything. And the little mirror pic is cute. America was a different place during that time, and so too were the training tactics. America itself was "brainwashed" into being scared constantly of "The Reds," or communists, or anything that wasn't directly connected to the US.

Now, if you had read my post, you'd see I was talking about that individual who served in Iraq, and myself, who also served in Iraq. I said that stuff wasn't a part of HIS training, OR MINE. Never did I say that it was never a part of ANYONE'S TRAINING. Hell, I even mentioned the way things were "back in the day." Did you read my post at all, or just skim over it?


EDIT: I see you changed the pic. If you knew anything about Abu Ghraib, you'd know the people there weren't "trained" to do any of that, and were punished severely for doing what they did. A complete failure of their command structure and poor scheduling led to what happened, AND if you did some research into a little Stanford experiment which studied those exact circumstances (way back before the US even entered Iraq), you'd know that no one has to be trained to act in such a way, people do it all on their own.

sapiens

I don't think that it necessarily matters if a soldier was "trained" to do any of that if "dehumanizing the other" is the outcome. Whether or not "dehumanizing the other" expressed via racist comments or direct violence is pervasive in the military, I don't know.

More to the OP: I don't give members of the military any more or less deference than I give anyone else.

ring

The mirror pic was an accident.
Cute? I dunno about that.

I read your entire post. I'm not a skimmer.

So, do you disagree then that the current "America" is not being brainwashed to
be scared constantly by a different 'Other?'

Teufel Hunden

For the context in which that pic was used, it absolutely matters. Ring made a blanket statement talking about the nature of military training, and that statement is 100% not true anymore. We're taught to be understanding of the culture, not the opposite. The pic of the naked pile of prisoners does nothing to prove otherwise, but instead shows what happens when you have a complete failure of the command structure.

---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------


No I don't disagree at all. I think we're constantly surrounded by fear tactics of all sorts. Terrorism, Global Warming, Pandemics.... it's a long list. Not just the one big bad Red enemy who is ready to invade us at any time. It's a different kind of brainwashing, and America is still vastly different from back then. But, it's important to know that military training is a far cry from what it once was. We no longer train to fight "The Reds" or the Ruskies or the commies, or one singular enemy in whom to focus all of our hate. During the 50s, 60s and 70s, IMO, the military was guilty of a lot of poor tactics in regards to its own troops. Vietnam was the height of it all, and the proof is in all the vets who came home and couldn't make a normal life for themselves. The training we receive now is so different in regards to cultural awareness, respect, and all that, you can't even compare what I went through to what your dad (or my dad, Vietnam vet) did. I'm serious when I say what I lost count of all the culture classes we went through.

Frankie Zee

Just going over Tuefel's posts alone should help convince people this comment is not entirely true.