Baraka_Guru

I just finished a job for a client. It was a web design dealio: a simple website promoting a just-released title. I've done a few of these now, mostly through the company I work for and a spin-off company based on that.

The client in mind was pleased with my work despite being a little put off by the lack of attentiveness on the part of my boss. A while ago, the client mentioned whether I did work on the side, as he had another website he wanted to update and move to a new hosting company. Now that our current project is completed, he has brought it up again and wants to know if I want to do it. He mentioned to me that he doesn't want this to "interrupt the relationship" with my boss and that we shouldn't mention it to him.

I'm not sure of the ethics of this.

The offered job in question is an update to a site related to an ebook and blog that has already been released and that we have nothing to do with.

What do you think?

If I agree to work with him on this other project as a freelancer, is this "stealing business" from a company I work for?

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Jinn

If I were your boss, I'd think that's precisely what it was -- stealing business.

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The_Jazz

If this falls within your job description (and it sounds like it does), then it is stealing business. If I were your boss and I found out that you were doing this, I'd terminate you immediately. And in Illinois, the law would be on my side.

Just something to think about, even though it really doesn't apply directly to your situation.

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Glory's Sun

this is the key phrase here..

you can freelance the hell out of it IMO. Your company isn't involved in the new project, and if you don't do it, someone else will get the money. Might as well grab all the contacts you can.

rahl

The problem is the conflict of interest. He would essentially be stealing a client from a company that he works for. If it wasn't for his current employer he would never have had the opportunity to do work this this particular client. His boss(company) it entitled to at the very least a percentage of his profits if he chooses to persue this. While it may not be illegal, it's just shady business

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Glory's Sun

hey.. he's looking for a new job anyway...

Baraka_Guru

@ gucci

Yeah, I didn't feel right about the offer. I don't think I'll pursue it, despite how much I need the money. I'd like to think of myself as having integrity. I just don't have the experience in dealing with these sorts of things.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Daniel_

Do you have a non-compete clause in your contract?

If this was my work, I have a contractual obligation to inform my boss if I'm offered freelance work from any business contact I made through work, and from any work in the same field.

That said, my boss has already said that I can freelance if I want to. Not that I have the time, but it's nice to know he doesn't mind.

__________________

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And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
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Glory's Sun

Likewise, my boss allows me to freelance because my freelance market is completely different from his demographic. So it's a win for both of us.

if there isn't a non-compete clause in your contract, I wouldn't really see a problem with it.

Baraka_Guru

HAHAHAHAHA! Hoo, boy...heh... contract.... ha-ha...heh... youse guys are funny!

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Lasereth

Oh my god this is a joke. The client came to YOU. Not your boss, not any other company, he came to you. This isn't ethically wrong, and I honestly believe it's not against the law either. Fucking looters think they own hard working people. If you do better work than your company does and a client comes straight to you, that's your business, not your company's. I can't believe this is even a debate. Go for it.

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Baraka_Guru

Oh, man....seriously.

Okay, here it is: the client came to the company, we do work for him, and now he wants me to do other work for him outside of the company.

Is this wrong?

Is it wrong only because it's similar work?

We aren't a web design/maintenance company; we help people publish and promote their work. That's it. This sometimes involves web design, sometimes it doesn't.

Where should one draw the line?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

In my eyes it's not wrong. If you had a contract and it had the clause in there, then it would be wrong. Unless your employer has specifically said that you can't freelance, then you're ok. The employer can look at it as either stealing work, or that you're doing it in hopes that he likes you so much that they can keep him as a client for work that the company actually does.

I see nothing wrong with taking the job..

Baraka_Guru

Well, here's this as well: I did refer one of our other current clients to the company. He came to me as a freelancer originally for editing, but I told him he could get the whole enchilada if he went with my company. I could have taken the job and told him afterward, but I was thinking about his best interests (and, behold, the interest of the company).

I technically talked him out of a contract with me. I didn't do a lick of work for the guy even though he did have work done through the company.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

so ... the company owes you a referral as well.

easy peasy.. take the job.

Lasereth

Yeah this is EZ mode. It's not stealing business unless YOU talked HIM out of doing business with your employer. Sounds like it was the other way around to me. This isn't China. This is the US so do the job and reap the benefits.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

rahl

Again I don't think it's a legal issue, but an ethical one. He would never have had a chance to meet this potential client without his company. His company is entitled to compensation or a referral fee. If he were to get permission from his boss then there wouldn't be a conflict. Not illegal, just shady

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Daniel_

I'd ask the boss - in any line of business, your good name is easy to lose and very very hard to repair. I'd not want to get a reputation as a workthief, and if you're asking the question, you're clearly thinking there might be an issue.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

pig

baraka: First, am I correct in understanding that you're essentially working freelance for your current boss? If you don't officially have an employment contract, haven't signed non-compete or NDAs with them, I would think that would weigh in the favor of you not being legally bound to refuse the freelance or face repercussions, although I might contact someone who works with HR (not at your present company) or your version of the Attorney General's office to make sure.

In terms of ethics and/or keeping CYA considerations, I would approach my boss and tell him you've been thinking about some freelance work in a general sort of way to get his opinion. You could really use some extra money, you have some friends who are looking for some website work, etc. If he doesn't flip out, I would proceed to tell your potential outside customer that you would be happy to consider the opportunity, but that you'd like to let your present employer know about it. You've already been cleared for outside freelance, so it shouldn't be a big deal as the work is unrelated to the jobs you've done through your current employer. This is assuming that you can do without the side money more easily than being without your current job or being in your boss' good favor. I would then tell my boss that customer X has asked for some help with website development that is unrelated to anything you've worked on in the past through your current position, and that you'd like to take the job for a quick moonlight.

I would also consider whether the side job might lead to other side jobs, and whether there is a market there to make it worth your hassle to go through all this. If you don't feel comfortable disclosing it to your boss, and you don't want to end up in a bad situation with your current boss, then I'd probably not do it. Chances are that no one would ever find out and all would be fine, but you have to prepared for the repercussions if it hits the fan. It's kind of like how TFP consistently says you know you're cheating if you're involved in sexual or relationship behavior that you don't feel comfortable disclosing to your SO. Well, in this professional sense I think your current job is like your SO, and you're not sure if you're being asked to cheat. If your potential customer doesn't feel comfortable having you disclose this to your boss, then I would personally help your potential customer find someone else to help him (someone you know) and tell him that you'd appreciate any business from clients not currently with your present employer, or for jobs that were clearly unrelated to the primary business of your current employer. This way if this side opportunity leads to additional work from the new customer or his contacts, you can probably get a piece of them by working with the friend that you originally referred this job out to.

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robot_parade

If it's the same work that you normally do for your company (sounds like it is), then yes, I'd say it's unethical, even if the client would go somewhere else if you don't do it freelance. Even if you think it's 'borderline', the fact that you'd have to hide it from your boss is probably a clue.

Also, I have almost exactly the same question as BG, but replace 'my boss' with 'my wife', and 'client' with 'hot blonde chick'. ;-)

Zeraph

Integrity wise I think you're fine. You aren't specifically scalping jobs from your company's portfolio. A customer that happens to know you through your job came to YOU for some freelance work. It has nothing to do with your boss.

Now consequence wise, I'm sure you could still get fired, so weigh that in...but there's no way its ethically wrong.

Raghnar -ITA-

If you even don't have a contract, I think what ethics you should respect...
The respect is from both parts, don't be a slave of your boss.

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