girldetective

Mornin.

I thought that I had posted a thread about this, but looking back in archives I could not find it. Im hoping this is not redundant.

I have twice now had emotional debates with a very close friend re the age of sexual consent. He believes it should be lowered to age 12; I don't. I love this person in many ways and have given him the benefit of the doubt in his thinking because his behavior and other talk does not suggest he would be pedophilish. In addition, I believe a person can think anything they want. Thinking is silent, private, and does not impinge on another person, it is non-invasive.

Now, last week I was chatting with him and asked him what his age boundaries are for dating. He said, "I don't want to tell you". I said, "What?! Why not?" He said, "I don't want to tell you." I didn't know what to say, and left the subject right there. I thought the worst, of course.

A little background of his history includes age 57, never married, no children (thinks he might want to have a child now), porn addicted, abused himself (not remembered, but contracted genital warts somewhere between ages 8-12), gregarious, rough and tumble with a self-reported (and sometimes seen) big heart.

I had thought perhaps he was being provocative in his debates, as he often is, but now I wonder if this isnt his true way of thinking, and would he act on it? Ive seen no evidence and really dont think so, but... Would I feel comfortable now having children in his presence without supervision?

As a sanity check, what would you think?

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mixedmedia

Well...we have had this discussion here before and I know there are a wide variety of opinions on the subject. But 12? In my opinion, 16 is a reasonable age for consent.

And personally, yes, I would suspect the personal motives of anyone who thought the age of consent should be 12. For what reason would they even have an opinion if it were otherwise? A strong conviction that most 12 year olds are emotionally strong enough to handle sexual relationships and all the implications thereof? I don't buy it.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

bazkitcase5

I do not know him well enough to jump to any conclusions, but one would have to think that if he had children that would eventually reach the age of 12, then he would no longer agree that the age of consent should be so low

my sister at the age of 16-19 still made plenty of dumb decisions (not sex related, just making a point), so it would be crazy to think she could understand all of the potential consequences with such an important decision at the age of 12

Jinn

If it were me, and I was a 57 year old man, I'd be comfortable dating someone in their 20s. That is, however, a little lower than the soceital expectation and I would similarly reply that I didn't care to share that bit of information. I think it demonstrates just as much about him as it does about how comfortable he feels. If he didn't feel comfortable, it might not be that it's particularly egregious, only that he doesn't think you respond well to that sort of thing - specifically since you've had previous discussions where you've disapproved.

I think that the age of consent ought to be the age of sexual maturity myself, but that doesn't, in any way, imply my desire to participate in such a thing. It is based in a belief about people having the liberty to do what they will with their bodies and minds, and not legislating what is largely a moral decision. I do think that though the age should be lowered, it should be such that it is only someone 18 years or younger can participate. In matters of adults and children, I do think we should legislate that behavior, because it seems morally and socially wrong to allow the influential power (and responsibility) of an adult to cloud the decision of a child.

There are many reasons he could feel that, and the first reason I would arrive at would not be that he actually wants to have sex with children.

But perhaps that is because there is a substantial difference in my mind between how men and women understand sex and that often men can be thinking things that (if spoken) to a woman would be entirely misrepresented or misunderstood.

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GreyWolf

I'm close enough to his age (54) to comment, AND I have a 12-yo daughter (although I honestly don't think that changes my position). A 12-yo may be becoming sexually mature, but they are FAR from being emotionally mature enough to make that sort of decision. Twelve is simply too young to engage in sexual activity. My daughter is still on that little girl/adolescent bubble... waiting to be a teen. But she is not emotionally (or physically, as far as I know) ready for sex.

Any guy my age who finds girls that age (or a woman finding boys that age) sexually attractive has some serious issues of their own.

I do think age of consent is a very slippery concept. I like the idea that young people close in age should have more leeway than when there is a larger difference. Common sense should rule, although erring on the side of protecting the child is not a bad decision.

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levite

I actually think there should be two ages of consent: There should be a general age of consent at 16, but there should also be an age of consent of 12 if the other partner is 16 or younger.

I think a general age of 12 is too young, but I can see the arguments for it. I don't think they have to be pedophilic, but can be pragmatic.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Zeraph

I don't know about 12, but personally I think it should be pretty low, maybe 14 (or none at all). Not because I think they should be having sex at that age (emotionally I would never even touch a 16 year old no matter how mature looking) but because its none of the governments damn business. I believe they should only intervene on a case by case basis and that its up to the parents to be protecting their children. If they're orphans or something then step in sure, or even if theyre 17 but being taken advantage of, then sure step in please. But setting a specific age, especially around 18 is just lazy silly and stepping on our rights. I believe in a much more 'laissez-faire' government.

PS this thread should really be merged with the other. It's nearly identical.

girldetective

So, if my friend has an anal fetish (which he does), it would be okay in your mind for him to penetrate 12 year old boys, too? It would be okay for him to explain to 12 year old boys and girls that he thought about butt fucking them with his penis and toys?


Tell me the arguments. Although we undestand the libertarian aspect and may not act or want to act, you know there are many who would. The world is rampant with them and their victims. I see them every single day.

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Jinn

I'm not sure that's terribly productive. Who would say "Yes" to this question? Do you expect that Zeraph will say "Yes"? If not, it's a bit passive aggressive to posit such a ridiculous question.

It kind of sounds like you've already made up your mind that he is a pedophile, and want someone to confirm to you that your suspicion is rational, based on him being older, thinking the age of consent should be lower, and being unwilling to tell you how young he'd date. I'm not sure you're going to get that.

I'll say in a general sense that in my experience the so-called "women's intuition" is usually right. If you have already made this conclusion, as I think you have, then you should be deciding instead on what course of action to take. But I can't tell you that you're correct, based on having never met this person.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Toaster126

I would never fuck a 12 year old, but there are 12 year olds that don't look anything like 12, and 12 used to be marrying age. Food for thought.

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girldetective

No, Jinn, I dont think he is a pedophile (see original post) and there is nothing I would do as I have never seen any behavior to warrant doing anything.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

mixedmedia

So who's going to step in if the parents do not know?

So who is going to step in if the legal age limit is 14? You're expecting the government to legislate these matters by hairtooth comb? Why don't we allow children to drive at 10? To drink at 12? Why have any limits at all?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with an arbitrary age limit. It sets a standard for the community, being that you know there will be a certain percentage of transgressions, but that most people will abide by them.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

girldetective

There was time when girls were chattel. They still are in some countries, and apparently still thought of that way in others. Women all over the world would like to see this changed. They would like to be treated with some care and concern for their welfare and that of their children. This doesnt mean that we dont want our children to grow up to experiment and experience sex when they are ready, or that we need to be treated with TLC, but it does mean the same rights as everyone. Included in these rights, I believe, is the right to be seen and understood as a woman and a whole human being, and as important and significant in society.

mixedmedia has it right. Laws are there to provide protection, and our children need it. Not excessively, but inherently. I understand some 12 year olds might be sexual thinking (I was) and I understand that will lead to sexual experiences. However, a 12 year old flirting with the boy next door is quite different from a 57 year old flirting with a 12 year old, or a 57 year old getting turned on by reading or misreading a 12 year old's intention and perhaps acting upon it legally. Although one would hope that a 57 year old would understand that it is part of growing up and learning, and that he is not to go there, there are many who do go there to eveyone's misfortune. One likes to think that we all look out for our children, but that isnt the case.

Another question this raises is if consent were legally to change (per state) to a lowered age, what would that mean for parental rights? When does a child become an adult?

ps to Jinn: Why is is passive-aggressive? I dont think it is necessarily ridiculous. If one were to legally fuck a 12 year old, or believe it should be legal to do so, why would talking about it to the victim be a problem? Or is it the butt fucking of a child that is problematic?! Would the law change to include only vaginal intercourse between men and girls?

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

guy44

Wow, that's some...let me say some very incorrect thinking going on there. I've worked in child welfare, and believe me, these laws most certainly need to exist. This is precisely where the government needs to step in. I'm not saying 18 is the correct (or incorrect) age, or that there shouldn't be other exceptions to the rule, but age of consent laws are extremely important.

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Xerxys

I personally think 16 is too young.

Spiritsoar

I dunno, I was 16 and so was she the first time, and would have been damn annoyed if someone had come told me that I couldn't consent, or that she couldn't.

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levite

16 is realism. I teach high school, and I'd guess that easily two thirds of my 16-year old students are sexually active. Many have boyfriends or girlfriends a couple years older than they are. A number have boyfriends or girlfriends a couple years younger. Teenagers have sex, and to make it illegal just because some of us would feel more comfortable if they would wait is not, IMO, enough reason. I don't know if-- in the abstract-- I feel comfortable with the notion of middle-aged adults sleeping with 16-year-olds, but I question how pervasive that is, or is likely to be, and I question if my own discomfort is reason enough to let this be another instance of allowing the government to make rules about who gets to have sex with who.

Personally, I feel that there need to be immediate and strong arguments in order to justify that kind of government intrusion into privacy. You might have me at 12, but not 16.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

GreyWolf

I think most people here agree there is a need for an age of consent. The comments about women as chattel, the emotional effect of sex for a child not mature enough for it (especially with a much older person), the existence of arbitrary ages for other activities (driving, drinking, voting) which are in place as much to protect society as the individual... all are excellent reasons for maintaining an age of consent for sex. That it should be more flexible than other ages is also a reasonable and appropriate point of view (teens with teens - ok; teens with adults - no).

Many of the posters here have much more experience with this than do I; from personal experience of starting at a very early age, or being a teacher or a social worker. Their opinions should carry commensurately greater weight here. All I can do is reiterate that from an age close to the original guy in question, I would consider sex with someone in their teens a crime. In fact, while wonderful to look at, and dream of as a fantasy of my youth, most adult women in their 20's and 30's would not long hold my interest for any reason other than sex. Life experience separates adults as well, and anyone who doesn't recognise that probably does have some serious issues.

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Reese

I've been a flip-flopper on age of consent. When I was 12, I was very sure that the age of consent should be 12. However the older I get, The higher I think the age of consent should be. Personally I think you should have to pass a test before you're considered an adult. Let people start taking said test at 15 years old. Then if you haven't passed the test by the time you're 25, you're put in front of a firing squad and terminated. Its for the good of society.

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