Gebbinn

Ok, in the hazing topic something was brought up that I wanted to respond to, but it goes off topic from the hazing a bit so I decided to just start a new one.

(to note: I spent 12 years in the infantry as an 11c Indirect fire infantryman (mortars). In those 12 years I worked with all the modern mortar weapon systems save the 120mm mortar system. I was in armored units, HMMWV based units, and true ground based units. I spent most of my time in the Fire Direction Control (FDC) part of the mortar platoon. In 1999, I was struck by a tree during a training accident, and incurred significant back damage. in 2001, I was medically discharged from active duty.)

Anyway, this was said and I wanted to respond.

we are going a bit off topic here, but what you are talking about sounds to me like normal training. If that E3 was the ONLY soldier in the unit who had to go in the week long field problem, then yes I would definitely say that is out of line, however if the unit as a whole is moving on bivouac then said E3's job is to ruck up and move out sharply. Every soldier in the army must meet certain standards. Those standards are established in basic training, and the soldier is expected to maintain those standards throughout his military career. The U.S. Army Physical Fitness test is designed to measure certain aspects of physical readiness, however it is no where near all inclusive.

I have been on many field exercises much in excess of 7 days, where conditions were miserable. Extreme heat in the deserts of California and Washington to the year round freezing temperatures in northern Alaska are used by the military to simulate conditions throughout the world and help prepare troops for those conditions. Each soldier (most especially in the infantry) is expected to be able to carry out his or her duties at a moments notice, and this includes rucking up, walking through whatever environment must be walked through, and then living out of that ruck for however long is required. That is the job, and any E3 that cannot handle it should not be in the army.

My worst ever road march was a 13 mile road march, with full battle simulated gear, including all the necessary equipment to set up, fire, and adjust indirect fire weapons systems (81mm Mortar system), weapons with blank munitions, grenades, night vision gear, mortar rounds, fire direction control computers, sights, radios, and 7 days worth of clothing and gear for field living conditions. We completed the 13 miles in 8 hours, which may seem pretty easy to most. However.. at the completion of the road march, each man refilled his water supplies, and scaled his weight fully loaded, then removed his gear down to basic duty uniform and reweighed to get his empty weight. Using this method we were able to determine the lightest load in the platoon (36 men) was 112 pounds, and the heaviest load was 182 pounds. I myself finished with 156 pounds of gear. This was an extreme situation, but not an unlikely one. In an actual combat situation the equipment we carried for those 8 hours would have been mission-critical.

I am not saying this to garner any kind of sympathy, or to "toot my own horn," I am bringing it up to show the darker side of training in the military. It sucks, it is miserable, but it is part of the job.

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There are 10 types of people in this world... Those who understand Binary and those who dont.
I aim to please.. to bad for you I am a horrible shot.
Every time you open your mouth, stupid comes out.

squeeeb

[sorry, i don't know how to quote from another thread, if someone can fix it, that would be cool]

i don't know the whole story, but an E1 in a unit for one week going to the field is not hazing, it's training. that's what the squad leader is for, that's how you learn.

making the smallest guy in the unit carry the 60 on a 10 mile roadmarch can be seen as hazing, or maybe they just want him to get stronger, but i think its hazing. making an E-3 with less time in the army than the total amount of time i've waited for my chute to open go to the field with his unit, in any condition, for any amount of time, is how he learns.

i always hated the phrase "if it aint raining, you aint training." fuck you, if it aint raining, i aint wet. you don't have to train to be miserable, that comes pretty naturally. yes, there is a point when the suckfest just becomes a suckfest and you no longer are learning. but again, that's not hazing, that's shitty leadership.

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onward to mayhem!

Gebbinn

its easy you just click the little quote button on the bottom right of thier post, then you can go in and delete whatever you want until you just have the part you need.


That "if it aint rainin, you aint trainin" was one of my favorite sayings in the army. The idea being, war is harsh, war is miserable, and mother nature doesnt give a rat's ass how miserable you are. I always enjoyed training in harsh weather conditions. Yeah it sucks to be in it, but as soon as it is over, it is over, and you move on. I remember having to spend a 3 hour guard duty one night in a hasty foxhole position that had filled with water (hasty foxhole is 18 inches deep by 8 feet long and 2.5 feet wide) It was miserable for the first hour, then I just changed my outlook, it was like soaking in a bathtub for the last two hours... albeit a cold bathtub.

The other saying I got a kick out of was "Pain is just weakness leaving the body" Technically is absolute rubbish, but man it just sounds tough. I know it comes from a movie or something, but I like it regardless.



on the subject of cool sayings, I had a Command Sergeant Major one time give a pep talk at our EIB opening ceremonies... he said he wasnt a very bright man, hell he could jump into a barrel of titties and come out squeezing his own ass... shortly followed by he could jump in a tub of pussy and come out sucking his thumb.. the guy should have been a stand up comic.

__________________
There are 10 types of people in this world... Those who understand Binary and those who dont.
I aim to please.. to bad for you I am a horrible shot.
Every time you open your mouth, stupid comes out.

squeeeb

i know how to quote, i don't know how to quote from one thread and use it in another thread.

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onward to mayhem!

forseti-6

Sorry for jumping on this thread late - I missed the hazing edge, but wanted to add my two cents. I spent four years with the infantry, and you guys could probably back me up on this. There is no room for weakness in the infantry. Smallest guy having the carry the 60 mm tube just shows how much toughness he has. If he can't hack it, his team leader will know how much he will be able to be counted on.

Now I was an officer during my four years, so a lot of what I saw was Sgts yelling and privates and all, but I've seen "weak soldiers" transformed into great soldiers due to the methods a lot of these NCOs use. I had a Pfc come to me who couldn't walk straight for two feet. After months of getting smoked and yelled at by his team leader, he eventually started getting it. After 15 months in Iraq, he was probably one of the most promising E-4 11Cs in the battalion. That's a long way. Had he not be "hazed" or whatever anyone wants to call it, I'm sorry, but he'd probably still be a Pvt rather than a Sgt now.

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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." - Dr. Seuss

Gebbinn

OH, LOL.. I went into that thread, started a reply, got done with the reply, realized it didnt fit the topic at hand, so I copy/pasted the whole thing onto a new thread. hence the quote from another thread... sorry I wasnt more specific. I always assume the lowest common denominator... KISS (keep it simple stupid) has worked well in the past.


Forseti-6
nice to see an ossiffer on the forum here. The hazing thread I have been responding to, but I see that most people here do not agree with the idea of it, they see it simply as demeaning and debasing rather than character and team building. I personally always viewed those who could not hack the hazing as weak, and not someone I would want backing me up when the proverbial shit hit the fan.

On the flipside, there is a point where it goes too far. ANY one on one harassment I always viewed as over the line. I once had a SGT who lost the tool bag from the BLE for my hummer. He tried to blame me for it. We were having a command inspection in the motor pool, and the tool bag was there the day before when we rehearsed the layout. He put the equipment away, while I was called away to have the CI done on the FDC equipment. The next day, the tool bag was gone, and he locked me up in the motor pool in front of the entire company and started screaming at me at the top of his lungs. He told me that he could have my rank and take me back down to a private ( I was an E4 at the time) right then, he would rip my rank right off my collar. I looked at him and told him if he wanted it so bad, he could take it. I didnt say it loud, only he heard me, but for that comment, and his humiliation, he put me through a 2 hour smokeathon in the platoon hallway of the barracks screaming at me to get him to swing at him the whole time. (on a side note, he was a pansy, and he couldnt break me, finally someone called the MPs and they showed up. That SGT became a PFC a few days later and I never said a word to him again)

My point, sometimes even the higher ranks can go wrong as well. Was that hazing.. I dont think so, I think that was more along the lines of a personal vendetta against someone. Hazing is a group sport.

__________________
There are 10 types of people in this world... Those who understand Binary and those who dont.
I aim to please.. to bad for you I am a horrible shot.
Every time you open your mouth, stupid comes out.

forseti-6

Gebbinn,

I think there is a very fine line between good hardcore leadership and abuse of power. In your case, it's obvious abuse of power. You learned nothing from it - considering you did nothing wrong. I think hardcore "suckfests" are intended to make soldiers tougher and learn how to react under stress and tough situations. They help build comraderie - they really do.

Likewise, punishing soldiers (i.e. staying late for no reason, chewing them out in front of formations, etc) not only wastes their time, but makes them resentful and miserable without accomplishing anything. Often times I've seen this happen with bitter mid career NCOs and officers that don't need to be in any more.

__________________
"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." - Dr. Seuss

Zeraph

Just wanted to add that the military also uses exhaustion for reeducation purposes. Same thing in some cults except its considered brain washing then. Really though exhaustion has a lot of necessary uses in the military.

Gebbinn

certainly the military uses reeducation in many forms throughout the ranks. Because of the nature of the beast, that beast being combat, there is a certain level of automation that needs to exist in a front line soldier. If a soldier must make a moral decision every time he pulls the trigger, then he will almost never pull the trigger, hence he must be, in your terms "brainwashed" to follow orders without question, he must have his skills drilled into him to the point where there is no thought, only action. Because in that fraction of a second, if he is bogged down with moral issues, he will lose the fight, and rather than the enemy being sent home in a pine box, the soldier is the one who's family cries at a gravesite.

In war, there is no middle ground. You win, or you die. That is not an exaggeration, that is a simple battlefield fact. Those who hesitate die, those who let basic morality (IE to kill another man = bad) die, and those who question their orders due to some philosophical qualm die. So, we "brainwash" our soldiers.

I understand that the military is not for everyone, what pisses me off is when those who dont serve feel in some way superior to those who do. you dont want to serve, then by all means dont, but get off your high horse and deal with the fact that a soldier goes through more in 2 years than you will ever imagine. ESPECIALLY during times of war.

__________________
There are 10 types of people in this world... Those who understand Binary and those who dont.
I aim to please.. to bad for you I am a horrible shot.
Every time you open your mouth, stupid comes out.

Plan9

Cue up Universal Life Excuse #1!

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Zeraph

If that last bit was directed at me: I'm not feeling superior. Some of the best people I know served in the military (and some of the worst, its no different than everywhere else). My resentment is that officers tend to be assholes and that the reeducation process is a necessary part of life to make sure the enlisted will die for them. I know why it needs to work that way, doesn't change that I don't like it.

Gebbinn

it was not meant for anyone here specifically, it was basically just a rant brought about by the brainwashing comment. The post was not directed at anyone specific, just a generality.

---------- Post added at 10:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------

OK, what exactly is universal life excuse #1? Im slow, I need a push.

__________________
There are 10 types of people in this world... Those who understand Binary and those who dont.
I aim to please.. to bad for you I am a horrible shot.
Every time you open your mouth, stupid comes out.

Plan9

Universal Life Excuse #1: "I was in the desert, where the fuck were you?"

...

It's a joke that went around my unit during Divorcefest '06. Har-har-har.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

forseti-6

I really don't think you know what you're talking about here. Officers tend to be assholes to make sure enlisted will die for them? I spent four years as an officer in the Army and just about every officer I worked with or under were some of the most straight forward people. Assholes? Definitely not - more laid back/cool-headed than anything.

Now some of the Sergeants were HUGE assholes to the soldiers. Like previous posts have stated, many times this was done to instill discipline and make sure soldiers were "automatic" in combat.

__________________
"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." - Dr. Seuss

Gebbinn

I hate to say it, but I am with forseti on this one. In 12 years in the army, I met ONE sanctimonious asshole officer.. Major Payne (not the movie, this was in 1989 LONG before that tripe hit the big screen), one of the sorriest excuses for a soldier that I ever did meet. He was a politician in green, who didnt know the first thing about the army. He grew up in DC, with a silver spoon in his ass, and he pissed someone off and got sent to a line unit in the 2nd AD.

Every other officer I had to deal with personally I found to be much like every other soldier I ever knew. I would have died for my officers just the same as I would have died for any of the men of my unit, from the private fresh out of basic to the Full Bird in charge of the brigade.

__________________
There are 10 types of people in this world... Those who understand Binary and those who dont.
I aim to please.. to bad for you I am a horrible shot.
Every time you open your mouth, stupid comes out.

Seeker5509

My 2c worth... When I was in the Infantry we had a Company Sergeant Major who used to say, "Train hard - fight easy!" The emphasis is on training though - not fuckin people around.

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Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes - Adm David Farragut

squeeeb

i retired a WO-3.

as for officers i dealt with in the 20 years i spent in the army, there were about 4 who i actually respected and liked. officers were mostly guys who thought they knew what they were doing, and we viewed them as summer help. we just had to deal with their egos for two years and they would move on, out of our hair.

they were indeed assholes, not straight forward, and no where close to laid back/cool headed. perhaps this was just the branch i was dealing with, but i was not a fan of officers.

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onward to mayhem!

forseti-6

If you don't mind me asking, what branch were you? I spent all my time in the infantry, so most of my experiences are with that. I have met douchebag officers, and they tended to be support branches, so that's probably where our experiences differed.

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"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." - Dr. Seuss