:lol:

This happens to me all the time. I always more often than not think to myself ... WTF do I say?

Now ... **smirkes and cocks his head toward punkmusicfan21**

If I hadn't learnt some technicques like the 30 second rule and the no talking about things with too much of an edge like seriall killers and torture, I'm good!!!

Read the thread Flatland, all will be answered.

Like blacks in southpark, if you don't change your point of view and see it for the irrational fear (almost phobia like) being rejected by a woman you have idealized before getting to know her is,

You will never get it.

*raises eyebrow and wonders if Xerx has a neck support problem*

Here is my question before I continue to give you advice that I feel like you're ignoring hahaha. Are you just looking to fuck something? Just want to get off? Or are you looking at becoming a more well rounded, secure, socially adaptable, and confident person?

If you want to get laid listen to Xerx - he knows way more tricks than Mart and I. That isn't to say that said tricks are negative; they just serve a different purpose then my advice.

If you want the latter then let me know and I'll try and help.

Aww, man, thespian86, They are not tricks. They're actually common sense. I talk about murdering people all day with my friends and joke about it so much it's disturbing. You may even think I think the way I speak when I'm with my friends.

But if I walked up to you and **Ahem** ...be myself, be laid back, be confident, and say, "dang man, that speech the supervisor gave was whack, I really want us to find a spot in the forest for her".

Would you even think twice about what I'm implying? Because that's EXACTLY what I would say to my friend here at work.

Are you being yourself when you say "dang man, ... etc"? Or are you being a social version of yourself; reserved for the boys at work/on the hockey team/at the bar?

To be totally honest, both.

It's my opinion that Pick Up will get you laid but hinder your progress in the whole "furthering yourself" thing. Pick Up is about creating a behavior and set of habits. That'll be hard to break.

On the other hand becoming a secure, well adjusted, happy person will lead to sex naturally AND you'll be happy. In fact, sex won't seem like such a big deal (it'll be something you love, rather then something you love and must work to obtain).

The late punkmusicfan (henceforth thespian86) does an excellent job of highlighting one of my primary objections to the whole pick up artist thing. It doesn't foster personal growth. Instead of learning to have confidence in yourself, you follow a set of rules and play a game. Given that both methods can achieve the same result and that the method promoted by myself and my compatriot allows you infinitely more flexibility in both what you achieve and how you achieve it, I'm forced to conclude that the PUA stuff is unnecessary and redundant at best, and at worst actively harmful.

It reminds me of all the 'get rich quick!' infomercials. I should hope that everyone here understands that there is no reliable way to make money quickly with no required skillset. Same goes for women. Being successful with the ladies is a skill and can be learned, but there are no shortcuts. You gotta do it the hard way, my friend.

The good news though is that the 'hard' way isn't all that hard. Taking the initial leap is a bit daunting, yeah, but it becomes exponentially easier after that. Once you realize how baseless your fears are, the learning to talk part will come on it's own.

Anything worth having in life needs to be earned.

Maybe my perspective is skewed, but PUAs I've met and seen discussing their "art" online range from maliciously misogynistic to outright sociopathic. They fine-tune a set of manipulation skills intended to get you laid.
Did you have confidence the first time you asked someone out? Hell, I still get nervous when I approach someone, but I have to step back and realize that maybe she's looking for the same thing as me, maybe she's not, and just because she's got a different set of parts doesn't change the fact that she's a person, just like me. Once you get used to it and understand that the worst she can do is say "no" (or pepper spray you if you really screw up,) it's not so bad.

Here's an idea for people who aren't used to the singles scene that I actually heard from a guy who went through the PUA stuff and realized he just needed to build some confidence: go to a bar you've never been to before and probably won't be back to with a friend or two, and compete to see how many women you can get to reject you without being an asshole (if you "neg" a woman, I will reach through the Internet and punch you in the dick.) By forcing yourself to expect failure, you remove that doubt and hesitation. Cheesy pickup lines, awkward dancing, whatever it takes. You're out there to have a few drinks, talk to women, and not get any phone numbers or go home with someone. While you're doing this, notice your body language and mannerisms, and watch women's body language, tone of voice, and reactions to you.

By the end of the night, you should all still be sober enough to drive, have some funny stories to tell on the ride home, and no matter how hard you try to screw up, you're probably going to have run into a few who saw through the goofing off, thought you were funny, and gave you a number. Which reminds me, if you get a woman's number, don't play the stupid "how many days should I wait?" game, tell her "I'll call you at x time on x day," and actually do it. Proving that you're not a flake on the first few dates will improve her perception of you.
The rejection game will help you immesurably.
If you're just looking to get some, there are dozens of women at any bar or club looking for the same thing.

No but the first time I approached a woman was a couple of years post puberty. I'm 23 now. Being nervous is silly at this point. And I don't talk to women who are looking at me, or not looking at me. I don't try to read the signs. In fact I don't chase women. I meet them in natural settings: through friends, through work, random conversation (stuff that happens naturally as well. for instance: standing at a bar where I go normally and I make a joke to the bartender and the girl next to me laughs and says something). I don't worry about getting laid or dating because there's no point.

EDIT: When I say I don't chase women, I don't mean I don't ask women out or hope for something more with someone I'm interested in, becasue I do. What I don't do is make it an issue of pursuit; it's not something to be won or lost. I'm fine with life happening without me trying to force my will on something that isn't satisfactory. I hope that makes sense.

My turn to be insecure ...

To be honest it's the social version of myself. Like your earlier distinction, I have personalities that change with the given circumstances (setting). Very few friends of mine know how I really am.

How does that apply?

Are you happier, more comfortable, and less "stuck feeling" when you are social Xerx or, well, you? Oh, and thanks for answering honestly. That's cool of you. Most people try to fight honesty.