CARBS!!! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

grumpyolddude · 04-03-2009, 06:58 PM

Seems that lately, most of the folks closest to me are taken with the Atkins Diet (The Atkins Diet: What It Is) . Only, it seems to me, they have taken it to the extreme of "no carbs...ever!" They are living on steak, eggs, bacon, salads (ranch dressing only!), ribs, chicken, turkey, cheese... and pork rinds! No bread, no fruit, no pasta, no cereal, no ice cream or cake or pie or pudding or....

Sorry, folks, but you are losing more than weight. You are losing the FLAVOR from you lives! Holy crap, people! How can you live without bread? All of the wonderful different textures and crusts and flavors... How do you sop up your gravy? Oh, yeah, no gravy!

And what of those poor, lonely tastebuds craving something a little bit sweet? They are there for a reason, baby! How can you deny yourself some sweet, juicy berries or grapes, or a an apple, an orange. Where is your daily ration of hot fudge brownie? No cookies? No BIRTHDAY CAKE???!!!??!! Oh the humanity!!!

Here's the thing: I am a tall, slender fellow. At nearly 6'5", I've never weighed over 220 lbs, and at that, most folks thought I was still too skinny. Right now, at 190, I eat what I want, when I want without a worry of where those calories will land. I've never concerned myself with weight gained or lost, so possibly I lack empathy.

I want my "people" to be as slim as they wish to be, but more importantly, to be healthy about it. I've read a bit of the pros and cons, but most of the material I've seen is written with an agenda, either to promote or defame the no carbohydrate approach. I'm trying to understand, but I'm an unrepentant carboholic.

Have any of you tried this kind of diet? What were your results? Any bad side effects (blood pressure, cholesterol, blood sugar)? How much weight did you shed, compared to how much you were wishing to? How could you possibly live with out carbs?

(I have a personal concern, as my wife has been lured into trying this diet.)

Tully Mars · 04-03-2009, 07:04 PM

Every doc I ever spoke to about this diet thought it was a bad idea.

Sensible, balanced eating habits with daily exercise. Just my opinion.

Baraka_Guru · 04-03-2009, 07:39 PM

Wow, isn't this happening, like, 5 years after the fact?

It's been studied and reported in countless publications: low-carb diets are a bad idea.

I can't believe people still do the Atkins diet. I didn't like it when I first learned about it, and I certainly don't like it now.

The facts:

Much of the weight you lose is water weight from the elimination of carbohydrates from your system.
Some of the other weight is fat and muscle.
The first two points would suggest that returning to a more balanced diet will necessarily lead to regaining weight.
The diet overworks your kidneys due to an increased production of nitrogen from converting protein to glucose for energy.
Carbohydrates are a prime source of glucose, the body's preferred energy source, especially the brain.
Ketosis is the body's natural defense against starvation and is not something easily managed.
A diet high in animal products and low in plant sources is a recipe for high blood pressure, heart disease, stroke, etc., and even certain cancers.
I have yet to read, hear, or otherwise know about a credible medical professional, nutritionist, or dietitian who even says the Atkins diet (or low-carb diets for that matter) is even "okay." Most say it's either ineffective for long-term weight loss or it's dangerous.
And from what I know, "no-carb" dieting isn't even the Atkins diet.

The most successful stories I've read about long-term weight loss and stupendous body transformations have all included diets where carbs were eaten 5 or 6 times a day. The best way to lose weight, according to all these cases, is a highly nutritious balanced diet and intense exercise 4 to 5 days a week. And the funny thing is, many of these people will say that low-carb diets are bullshit...many of them have "tried everything" before getting it. (If you seriously want to know what I'm talking about, I might be convinced to start a new thread on this.)

Most people I know who have been on Atkins had reported crankiness, fatigue, and failure.

Atkins is fad.

I thought it was dead.

(Warning, cliches ahead!) If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. If it seems easy, it probably isn't the real thing. Doing what's good for you is truly hard to do. But you have to make that choice. If you want something that seems hard to achieve, you have to work for it. If you want to burn several pounds of fat off your body, you have to convince it that you don't need it anymore. Drinking gravy isn't going to do it. Get over your fear of oatmeal; it's one of your best sources of fuel out there. Use it to burn your way to the body you want.

grumpyolddude · 04-03-2009, 09:34 PM

You get no argument from me, B.G, but after a carb-free week, QW's blood pressure, usually on the high side, has improved! And she, and the others I know living like this, are active, energetic, upbeat and convivial! I'm wary, but trying to keep an open mind while I learn more.

I'm really interested in hearing from a few people who have used this strategy, succeeding or failing. Carb-free (I agree that what they're doing isn't strictly "Atkins") may not be getting as much press as it used to, but it still seems to be fairly popular. I can't understand it as a long term lifestyle option. Eventually, balanced nutrition and physical activity have to be the basis for long-term health. How have our post-Atkins friends adjusted to this? Did the weight bounce back? Are they still slim and (presumably) sexy?

Baraka_Guru · 04-04-2009, 04:28 AM

grumpy, I've heard that that's actually common. But it isn't sustainable. At best, the Atkins diet works as a short-term strategy (a few months at most). Eating like that (especially no carbs) is a recipe for disaster down the road. The body isn't meant to work that way for long. We are not carnivores.

Those on long-term low-carb diets should be prepared for problems with the heart, the kidneys, and constipation.

There are far better ways to lose weight.

Are they even controlling calories, or are they looking at protein and fat as an open ticket?

ratbastid · 04-04-2009, 05:29 AM

Hold the phone. The Atkins diet is NOT a "no-carb" diet. If somebody's doing that, they're doing it very very wrong, and it can be dangerous.

Atkins starts with a two-week period of restricted carb intake (called "Induction"). There are four stages of the diet, of which Induction is the first. The final stage ("Maintenance") looks a whole lot like a regular, balanced diet, with an emphasis on healthy, slow-burn carbs.

Atkins does not involve gorging yourself on meat. And even in Induction, you HAVE to eat 20g of carbs a day. Not UNDER 20g. EXACTLY 20g. That's not much, compared to a typical American diet, but it's DEFINITELY not none. So, olddude, if your people aren't counting to 20 every day (and even that for only two weeks, as you start to "earn" more carbs--that you HAVE to eat--as you go along), they're not doing Atkins, they're doing something they pulled out of their ass.

I did Atkins for a while and had excellent results on it with ease. At some point I quit working it and it quit working, but I don't blame the diet for that.

Atkins got a really bad rap, but it's almost entirely the misunderstood, misapplied approach that people are talking about when they say "Atkins".

Also, grumpster, when I was doing it, my lovely wife was a vegetarian. We practically had two separate kitchens. It was doable.

snowy · 04-04-2009, 06:57 AM

According to my nutrition instructor, who is an RD, you need a balance of macronutrients (carbohydrate, protein, lipids) to function at your best. There are ranges for each of these that tell us what percentage of our diet each macronutrient should take up (the Acceptable Macronutrient Distribution Range, or AMDR). For carbohydrate, the range is 45-65% of intake. For fats/lipids, it's 20-35%, and for proteins, 10-35%. These ranges are found in the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, which are science-based guidelines for nutritional professionals. MyPyramid.gov (the consumer-friendly website that uses the Dietary Guidelines for Americans) has a calculator that will provide a better idea of what needs to be eaten based on personal factors; click on the link that says "Get a personalized plan" in the "I want to..." box.

It isn't carbohydrate that's bad--it's the kind of carbohydrate people choose to consume. More often than not, people choose refined carbohydrates over and over again. Whole grains are a really important part of the diet and need to be a significant part of carbohydrate consumption.

Why do Americans like extremes so much? My nutrition instructor related an anecdote in class yesterday; she was at lunch on Thursday and overheard two women discussing nutrition. Being a professional, she eavesdropped, and heard them talking about their carbohydrate choices. One of the women started going off about how she had stopped eating white rice because it was unhealthy, and was only eating brown rice now. That's not how to approach eating, even eating for nutrition. No one's saying that people can't eat white rice or even fried rice (once in a while). The key thing is to make sure that at least half (if not more) of one's carbohydrate choices are whole grain choices that are high in fiber.

I think people would be a lot more successful with changing their lifestyles if they stopped eliminating whole food groups. The fact of the matter is that for optimum nutrition, we need to eat a variety of foods from every food group, and get 30-60 minutes of physical activity a day.

P.S. Thanks for helping me study for nutrition! All of the information found here is from my class notes or the MyPyramid.gov website.

dlish · 04-04-2009, 07:10 AM

GOD, if you're worried about QW's blood pressure i can give you she-lish's details if you need to discuss anything in particular or specific. she deals and specialises in diabetes education, so she can be of great help.

as far as the atkins diet is concerned, sack it. she-lish doesnt recommend it one bit. neither would any sane health professional..ever,

usually she'll read BG's posts and agree with everything he says, so if a RD and RN is saying that, then you could take his advice.

just out of curiosity...if your friends dont eat carbs and are following the atkinds diet, how bad does their breath stink???

grumpyolddude · 04-04-2009, 01:25 PM

and the last shall be first....

dlish, I haven't noticed significant halitosis, although QW's is the only breath I experience with much intimacy. That's a good tip, though. I be sure to keep a nostril open for changes along that front.

I'm keeping close tabs on QW's progress and making extra effort to discuss her diet with her, trying to strike a balance between a concerned sharing of information and preaching sound nutrition. She knows that, ultimately, I have her best interests in my heart and want to keep her around and healthy for a good, long time.

Snowy, we have a very close family friend, a professional nutritionist with a fellowship at Michigan State University (Go Spartans!!), who has yet to weigh in on the subject. I'm absolutely certain that, once he catches wind of what QW's up to, all hell is gonna break loose. Considering that he's my eldest's oldest friend, and the son of her very closest friend, it's incredible that the shit hasn't hit the fan to date.

But, even the pros have differing opinions on many aspects of nutrition. My bosses brought in a couple of "experts" to conduct a series of meetings with the employees involved in our health care program to promote healthier lifestyles (motivated, not entirely, by the prospects of lowering health related expenses and lost work time). These folks had some fairly radical views concerning cholesterol control, enzyme supplements and food sourcing in general.

The one thing I took from them was to avoid eating carbohydrates dry. They claim that an enzyme specific to lipids was crucial to helping the body process carbs and store less as fat. In other words, a little bit of butter on your bread or potatoes does more than just make them taste better

While I really appreciate everyone's input here, ratbastid has the info I'm really after: real world experience with the plan. You've hit upon my concern that the program is being misapplied and there are serious health issues being risked. QW is taking in some carbs, but no where near the 20g you mention. I'll be working on a strategy to get her to "cheat" a little more without making her feel she's failing the program.

And BG... today I convinced QW to get some urine test strips. Whether they give worthwhile information or not, I figure that using them on a regular basis will keep her cognizant of the potential for problems and cause her to monitor things closely.

I can't enforce lifestyle changes, only offer support and gently try to guide things. Thanks for the input, everyone. I'd still like to hear a few more real world experiences.

ratbastid · 04-04-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpyolddude

While I really appreciate everyone's input here, ratbastid has the info I'm really after: real world experience with the plan. You've hit upon my concern that the program is being misapplied and there are serious health issues being risked. QW is taking in some carbs, but no where near the 20g you mention. I'll be working on a strategy to get her to "cheat" a little more without making her feel she's failing the program.

Glad to help. She needs to read the book. REALLY. It's not cheating to do the thing as designed. Doing it as designed is relatively safe (except for people with specific health histories, which are listed thoroughly... in the book).

Tell her I said she's doing it wrong. Atkins isn't just "no carbs". Not by a long shot. She's making something up, and it could be seriously dangerous. Hell, Atkins asks in the first few pages that you read the whole book and understand the whole program before starting on it. To just throw carbs out the window because you heard that was Atkins... That's just nuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpyolddude

And BG... today I convinced QW to get some urine test strips. Whether they give worthwhile information or not, I figure that using them on a regular basis will keep her cognizant of the potential for problems and cause her to monitor things closely.

Ketostrips are a positive-or-negative test for urinary ketones, which indicate that the metabolic state of ketosis has been induced. The idea with Atkins, though, is to induce ketosis WITHOUT the body entering starvation mode. Put any anorexic's urine on a ketostrip and it'll light right up--ketones are what the body generates when it's burning something other than nutritional calories for energy. The Atkins diet when done as designed walks a fine line between triggering alternate energy burning, and physical survival mode. But it is a FINE line, and making something up won't be successful and could be dangerous.

ItWasMe · 04-04-2009, 05:31 PM

I was on Atkins for a while, about 11 years ago. I did it for several months.

Atkins (back then, don't know about now) is NOT about NO carbs. And it's not exactly an all-you-can-eat bacon eggs & cheese bar. In fact, cheese is supposed to be limited to 1-2 ounces per day of hard cheese. Soft cheese isn't even on the menu for a while. For two weeks, it's 20 carbs per day, as Ratbastid said. After 2-4 weeks (although supposedly you can wait for up to 6 months), the plan is to reintroduce more carbs to your diet, a little more each week. And to be smart about ... Fruits and whole grain breads and such ... but more with a low glycemic index number, and sparingly with higher G.I. numbers. Such as blueberries vs. peaches. Whole grain bread vs. worthless white bread. They key was to learn to not spike your blood sugar and then drop low, but to keep it even with healthier foods.

My experience:

The CON's:
*The first day was ok, but days 2 & 3 (going into the 'induction phase') I had intense cravings for a potato or a roll. Like a smoker quitting cold turkey.
*What I call 'dog poop' breath. Not kidding; that is what it smelled like. Had to use breath sprays and/or sugar free mints every hour.
*It was often inconvenient when eating at work.
*Alot of processed 'low carb' foods, such as bars, are high in sugar alcohols (for sugar free sweetness) and fiber. Too much sugar alcohol causes the same problems as too much fiber.

The PRO's:
*I lost weight. I lost it more quickly when I was taking in fewer carbs.
*I stopped taking all reflux meds because my GURD basically disappeared while on the low (not no) carb diet. It returned when I went off the diet ... but I learned which foods aggravate it (NOT fats, as the doc originally thought ... but combination of salt and high carb).
*I had blood work done. Blood pressure and cholesterol levels actually improved while on the diet.
*Oddly, I had more energy at the gym.
*I stopped getting shaky and tired before meals.
*I got hungry at the next mealtime, but I was not hungry or having cravings between meals.

grumpyolddude · 04-04-2009, 07:03 PM

Great responses! Thanks!

It's obvious that there's still a lot for me to learn about this. I've a bit of reading ahead.

ItWasMe · 04-05-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Glad to help. She needs to read the book. REALLY.

Yes, she does.

I still have the book. GrumpyOldDude is welcome to it if he wants it.

grumpyolddude · 04-05-2009, 06:47 PM

Thanks, ItWasMe. Turns out, QW has the book, and WE are reading it. I've spent a lot of the past two days harping on the 20g carbs and balance in her diet. We just returned from dinner, which did include a modest amount of carbs

That's a pretty interesting bit of info in your response, concerning GURD. Have you been able to keep that under control over the years since your Atkins experience?

You say that you lost weight, but was it sustainable?

ItWasMe · 04-06-2009, 03:21 AM

Well ... my weight was sustainable to a point, because couple of months after I quit the diet I got pregnant. So it went up a bit after my pregnancy cravings. After that, It was okay until about a year ago when I went on blood pressure meds and it started creeping back up because they lower the heartrate/metabolism. I spoke to a couple of people who had done Atkins when I was 'on the diet.' They had kept it off for a couple of years. But I think it only works for good if you treat it as al ifestyle change and not a diet. As with any diet.

By the way, the first two weeks are a bit more restrictive. It's called the 'induction phase' and those 20 carbs aren't supposed to come from just anywhere. An ounce of cheese is 1gm. And if she eats processed meat, things like hot dogs are going to ring in at about 5gm each. Creamer for your coffee can be 1gm - 5gm unflavored, depending on what kind you use.

Once she's past the induction phase, she can even slice up part of a banana or such with her breakfast. I think a banana from my fingertips to my wrist is between 15-20. And a cup of milk is between 9-12 (depending on fat content) so you can still get in your calcium besides cheese. And nothing wrong with eating 1/2 slice of whole grain toast (7-11 carbs for 1/2 slice) instead of two whole pieces that a restaurant gives you when you want some with breakfast.

Just remember you don't want all your daily carbs at once. You want to avoid an insulin spike. I have a digital scale that helps me count when I'm not sure, and it comes in handy. Several years after Atkins, one of our girls was diagnosed with diabetes, so I still have to count those puppies and pay attention to fast sugars and such.

One of my best friends is now CalorieKing - Diet and weight loss. Calorie Counter and more You can get all kinds of nutrition information (carbs/sugars/calories/cholesterol/etc) on everything from fresh produce to fast food items. Give it a peek.

Iliftrocks · 04-06-2009, 04:51 AM

I've basically cut out breads and high-carb foods, such as potatos, chips, etc. and mostly processed stuff out of my diet. I'm not "low-carbing" so to speak, but I am trying to fill the empty hole in my diet with more veggies and fruits. I don't miss bread, rice, and pasta, pretty much at all. I will, on the weekend, eat a little of those things, but I'm getting to where I don't even want them on the weekend. My next step is to actually cut calories.

I've tried getting rid of sugar in my drink, but I started using Splenda, only to find out I was allergic, so now I'm weaning myself onto sugarless beverages..... THAT'S what I'm going to miss.....

I've got cousins doing "Atkins" diets. They don't seem to understand that after a certain point, you add in more carbs, either. It's a shame, because the end diet from the book, is actually pretty sane.

As far as grains go. I learned in anthropology, that a lot of diseases, including tooth decay, were only found in humans, AFTER grains were incorporated in the diet. There are some interesting things to read about it.

One site, that I'm not finished reading, but is somewhat topical: Evolutionary Discordance of Grains/Legumes in the Human Diet

Baraka_Guru · 04-06-2009, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliftrocks

As far as grains go. I learned in anthropology, that a lot of diseases, including tooth decay, were only found in humans, AFTER grains were incorporated in the diet. There are some interesting things to read about it.

This bit is interesting, but I'm assuming it has way more to do with the refined carbohydrates creeping in than it does with carbohydrates in general.

Quote:

One site, that I'm not finished reading, but is somewhat topical: Evolutionary Discordance of Grains/Legumes in the Human Diet

This is also fascinating. It reminds me of the literature I've read that argues how we aren't well designed for consuming meat and dairy from mouth to digestion.

I think humans are simply hopeless generalists.

ItWasMe · 04-06-2009, 02:47 PM

Grumpy, just curious ... is QW her initials, or does it stand for Queen Woman, Quacky Wife, Quirky Woman, Quizzical Wildflower?

grumpyolddude · 04-06-2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItWasMe

Grumpy, just curious ... is QW her initials, or does it stand for Queen Woman, Quacky Wife, Quirky Woman, Quizzical Wildflower?

"QW" stands for Quiet Woman, a nickname she was given by a friend back in college. I related the expanded story back last summer: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...hes-my-qw.html .

I'm trying to ingest all of this information. I've never had to pay this much attention to the specifics of nutrition on my own behalf. I guess I need the motivation of supporting my sweetie.

newtx · 04-06-2009, 07:33 PM

I must admit the Atkin's Diet worked for me. So far the only diet that has. Probably not completely healthy in the long term but it did work. Not no carbs- just low carbs. My problem with this was body odor. Not bad breath or anything so simple but body odor due to the fat escaping from the ketosis. The South Beach Diet is much better in the long haul. (imo)

Lindy · 04-07-2009, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliftrocks

I've basically cut out breads and high-carb foods, such as potatos, chips, etc. and mostly processed stuff out of my diet. I'm not "low-carbing" so to speak, but I am trying to fill the empty hole in my diet with more veggies and fruits. I don't miss bread, rice, and pasta, pretty much at all. I will, on the weekend, eat a little of those things, but I'm getting to where I don't even want them on the weekend. My next step is to actually cut calories.
As far as grains go. I learned in anthropology, that a lot of diseases, including tooth decay, were only found in humans, AFTER grains were incorporated in the diet. There are some interesting things to read about it.

One site, that I'm not finished reading, but is somewhat topical: Evolutionary Discordance of Grains/Legumes in the Human Diet

I recommend a great book that touches on this (and other) subjects. Good Calories, Bad Calories, Gary Taubes, Book - Barnes & Noble a lot of science and history of human dietary development, agriculture and its effect on diet, etc. It is a real eye opener.

I follow a high protein low carb diet which allows virtually unlimited salad veggies like lettuce, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, but cuts out almost completely white flour, rice, potatoes, etc. I also eat a lot of berries, grapes, and mellon. The emphasis is not on zero carbs, but rather on CONTROLLING carbs and awareness about getting sufficient protein.

The Atkins diet is also not the only low carb regime out there. I recommend Protein Power, Drs. Mike and Mary Dan Eades.

Amazon.com: The Protein Power Lifeplan: Michael R. Eades, Mary Dan Eades: Books

By the way, asking conventionally trained dietitians, who are very thoroughly indoctrinated in the gospel of low fat, about the virtues of controlling carbohydrates is akin to asking a Jesuit priest to comment on the virtues of Buddhism. It's not what they don't know that's the problem. It's what the know for sure.

Lindy

Baraka_Guru · 04-07-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindy

I recommend a great book that touches on this (and other) subjects. Good Calories, Bad Calories, Gary Taubes, Book - Barnes & Noble a lot of science and history of human dietary development, agriculture and its effect on diet, etc. It is a real eye opener.

I follow a high protein low carb diet which allows virtually unlimited salad veggies like lettuce, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, but cuts out almost completely white flour, rice, potatoes, etc. I also eat a lot of berries, grapes, and mellon. The emphasis is not on zero carbs, but rather on CONTROLLING carbs and awareness about getting sufficient protein.

I have only heard of this book via Dr. Andrew Weil's website (whose recommendations I often trust). He generally supports Taubes' book, but suggests he might be a bit too harsh on carbohydrates. Weil recommends limiting animal proteins to a few times a week (and suggests fatty cold-water fish as the prime choice) and choosing carbohydrates that rank low on the GI scale. For example, sweet pototoes are a good choice because their GI rating is similar to berries and is quite close to grapes and is actually better than cantaloupes. Steel cut oats are as low as this too, and basmati rice is pretty low as well.

I support the controlling of carbs. There are certain things you should eliminate, including white bread, waffles, and doughnuts...plus you could benefit from reducing things such as regular potatoes. But there are a bunch of grains, legumes, and tubers that are actually ranked quite low on the GI scale and compare to a lot of the things that Taubes says you should eat.

grumpyolddude · 04-07-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindy

I recommend a great book that touches on this (and other) subjects. Good Calories, Bad Calories, Gary Taubes, Book - Barnes & Noble a lot of science and history of human dietary development, agriculture and its effect on diet, etc. It is a real eye opener.

I follow a high protein low carb diet which allows virtually unlimited salad veggies like lettuce, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, but cuts out almost completely white flour, rice, potatoes, etc. I also eat a lot of berries, grapes, and mellon. The emphasis is not on zero carbs, but rather on CONTROLLING carbs and awareness about getting sufficient protein.

The Atkins diet is also not the only low carb regime out there. I recommend Protein Power, Drs. Mike and Mary Dan Eades. Amazon.com: The Protein Power Lifeplan: Michael R. Eades, Mary Dan Eades: Books

By the way, asking conventionally trained dietitians, who are very thoroughly indoctrinated in the gospel of low fat, about the virtues of controlling carbohydrates is akin to asking a Jesuit priest to comment on the virtues of Buddhism. It's not what they don't know that's the problem. It's what the know for sure.

Lindy

Taubes ideas (based on the review you linked... I haven't read his book for myself) are almost verbatim what was promoted at our company sponsored nutrition seminars. Maybe it was the presentation (or the presenters), but they seemed a tad wacky to me. The speakers left me with the impression that they just might go home, don tinfoil hats and peer through the shutters at every dark sedan or SUV that happened by. It was hard to separate the message from the messenger. Maybe these ideas deserve a less biased assessment.

Iliftrocks · 04-08-2009, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

This bit is interesting, but I'm assuming it has way more to do with the refined carbohydrates creeping in than it does with carbohydrates in general.

This is also fascinating. It reminds me of the literature I've read that argues how we aren't well designed for consuming meat and dairy from mouth to digestion.

I think humans are simply hopeless generalists.

Yeah, I don't think there's any evil to adapting to a more sustainable diet, but an understanding that we're actually stressing our bodies, somewhat, by the way we are changing our "natural" diet, might help us understand the diseases that we are currently deluged with, ie. diabetes, and heart disease. It might not be as simple as, we are too fat, but we also might be too fat, because of what we eat.

Wow, spellcheck is kicking my arse today. I mispelled diabetes twice, not to mention several one syllable words. I must be low on carbs.......

( I seem to be having a bad-brain day, sorry if I'm incomprehensible )

Lindy · 04-08-2009, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

... Steel cut oats are as low as this too, and basmati rice is pretty low as well....

I support the controlling of carbs. There are certain things you should eliminate, including white bread, waffles, and doughnuts...plus you could benefit from reducing things such as regular potatoes.

Oatmeal is one carb that I just can't give up, especially in the winter. I now limit myself to a "serving" of about a half cup cooked. With fruit and cream. Real cream.

One completely untouted benefit of low carb eating is that it pretty much eliminates the universally condemned transfats and hydrogenated oils from the diet. No fast food french fries, no pastries, no white bread, no doughnuts, no chips, no cookies no breaded and deep-fried chicken or fish, etc equals no transfats. A fat that the low-carb community assiduously avoids.

Lindy

04-03-2009, 06:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
grumpyolddude Deliberately unfocused Location: Amazon.com and CDBaby	CARBS!!! Seems that lately, most of the folks closest to me are taken with the Atkins Diet (The Atkins Diet: What It Is) . Only, it seems to me, they have taken it to the extreme of "no carbs...ever!" They are living on steak, eggs, bacon, salads (ranch dressing only!), ribs, chicken, turkey, cheese... and pork rinds! No bread, no fruit, no pasta, no cereal, no ice cream or cake or pie or pudding or.... Sorry, folks, but you are losing more than weight. You are losing the FLAVOR from you lives! Holy crap, people! How can you live without bread? All of the wonderful different textures and crusts and flavors... How do you sop up your gravy? Oh, yeah, no gravy! And what of those poor, lonely tastebuds craving something a little bit sweet? They are there for a reason, baby! How can you deny yourself some sweet, juicy berries or grapes, or a an apple, an orange. Where is your daily ration of hot fudge brownie? No cookies? No BIRTHDAY CAKE???!!!??!! Oh the humanity!!! Here's the thing: I am a tall, slender fellow. At nearly 6'5", I've never weighed over 220 lbs, and at that, most folks thought I was still too skinny. Right now, at 190, I eat what I want, when I want without a worry of where those calories will land. I've never concerned myself with weight gained or lost, so possibly I lack empathy. I want my "people" to be as slim as they wish to be, but more importantly, to be healthy about it. I've read a bit of the pros and cons, but most of the material I've seen is written with an agenda, either to promote or defame the no carbohydrate approach. I'm trying to understand, but I'm an unrepentant carboholic. Have any of you tried this kind of diet? What were your results? Any bad side effects (blood pressure, cholesterol, blood sugar)? How much weight did you shed, compared to how much you were wishing to? How could you possibly live with out carbs? (I have a personal concern, as my wife has been lured into trying this diet.) __________________ "Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

04-03-2009, 07:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Every doc I ever spoke to about this diet thought it was a bad idea. Sensible, balanced eating habits with daily exercise. Just my opinion. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

04-03-2009, 07:39 PM	#3 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Wow, isn't this happening, like, 5 years after the fact? It's been studied and reported in countless publications: low-carb diets are a bad idea. I can't believe people still do the Atkins diet. I didn't like it when I first learned about it, and I certainly don't like it now. The facts: Much of the weight you lose is water weight from the elimination of carbohydrates from your system. Some of the other weight is fat and muscle. The first two points would suggest that returning to a more balanced diet will necessarily lead to regaining weight. The diet overworks your kidneys due to an increased production of nitrogen from converting protein to glucose for energy. Carbohydrates are a prime source of glucose, the body's preferred energy source, especially the brain. Ketosis is the body's natural defense against starvation and is not something easily managed. A diet high in animal products and low in plant sources is a recipe for high blood pressure, heart disease, stroke, etc., and even certain cancers. I have yet to read, hear, or otherwise know about a credible medical professional, nutritionist, or dietitian who even says the Atkins diet (or low-carb diets for that matter) is even "okay." Most say it's either ineffective for long-term weight loss or it's dangerous. And from what I know, "no-carb" dieting isn't even the Atkins diet. The most successful stories I've read about long-term weight loss and stupendous body transformations have all included diets where carbs were eaten 5 or 6 times a day. The best way to lose weight, according to all these cases, is a highly nutritious balanced diet and intense exercise 4 to 5 days a week. And the funny thing is, many of these people will say that low-carb diets are bullshit...many of them have "tried everything" before getting it. (If you seriously want to know what I'm talking about, I might be convinced to start a new thread on this.) Most people I know who have been on Atkins had reported crankiness, fatigue, and failure. Atkins is fad. I thought it was dead. (Warning, cliches ahead!) If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. If it seems easy, it probably isn't the real thing. Doing what's good for you is truly hard to do. But you have to make that choice. If you want something that seems hard to achieve, you have to work for it. If you want to burn several pounds of fat off your body, you have to convince it that you don't need it anymore. Drinking gravy isn't going to do it. Get over your fear of oatmeal; it's one of your best sources of fuel out there. Use it to burn your way to the body you want. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 04-03-2009 at 07:56 PM..

04-03-2009, 09:34 PM	#4 (permalink)
grumpyolddude Deliberately unfocused Location: Amazon.com and CDBaby	You get no argument from me, B.G, but after a carb-free week, QW's blood pressure, usually on the high side, has improved! And she, and the others I know living like this, are active, energetic, upbeat and convivial! I'm wary, but trying to keep an open mind while I learn more. I'm really interested in hearing from a few people who have used this strategy, succeeding or failing. Carb-free (I agree that what they're doing isn't strictly "Atkins") may not be getting as much press as it used to, but it still seems to be fairly popular. I can't understand it as a long term lifestyle option. Eventually, balanced nutrition and physical activity have to be the basis for long-term health. How have our post-Atkins friends adjusted to this? Did the weight bounce back? Are they still slim and (presumably) sexy? __________________ "Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

04-04-2009, 04:28 AM	#5 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	grumpy, I've heard that that's actually common. But it isn't sustainable. At best, the Atkins diet works as a short-term strategy (a few months at most). Eating like that (especially no carbs) is a recipe for disaster down the road. The body isn't meant to work that way for long. We are not carnivores. Those on long-term low-carb diets should be prepared for problems with the heart, the kidneys, and constipation. There are far better ways to lose weight. Are they even controlling calories, or are they looking at protein and fat as an open ticket? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

04-04-2009, 05:29 AM	#6 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Hold the phone. The Atkins diet is NOT a "no-carb" diet. If somebody's doing that, they're doing it very very wrong, and it can be dangerous. Atkins starts with a two-week period of restricted carb intake (called "Induction"). There are four stages of the diet, of which Induction is the first. The final stage ("Maintenance") looks a whole lot like a regular, balanced diet, with an emphasis on healthy, slow-burn carbs. Atkins does not involve gorging yourself on meat. And even in Induction, you HAVE to eat 20g of carbs a day. Not UNDER 20g. EXACTLY 20g. That's not much, compared to a typical American diet, but it's DEFINITELY not none. So, olddude, if your people aren't counting to 20 every day (and even that for only two weeks, as you start to "earn" more carbs--that you HAVE to eat--as you go along), they're not doing Atkins, they're doing something they pulled out of their ass. I did Atkins for a while and had excellent results on it with ease. At some point I quit working it and it quit working, but I don't blame the diet for that. Atkins got a really bad rap, but it's almost entirely the misunderstood, misapplied approach that people are talking about when they say "Atkins". Also, grumpster, when I was doing it, my lovely wife was a vegetarian. We practically had two separate kitchens. It was doable. Last edited by ratbastid; 04-04-2009 at 05:31 AM..

04-04-2009, 06:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	According to my nutrition instructor, who is an RD, you need a balance of macronutrients (carbohydrate, protein, lipids) to function at your best. There are ranges for each of these that tell us what percentage of our diet each macronutrient should take up (the Acceptable Macronutrient Distribution Range, or AMDR). For carbohydrate, the range is 45-65% of intake. For fats/lipids, it's 20-35%, and for proteins, 10-35%. These ranges are found in the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, which are science-based guidelines for nutritional professionals. MyPyramid.gov (the consumer-friendly website that uses the Dietary Guidelines for Americans) has a calculator that will provide a better idea of what needs to be eaten based on personal factors; click on the link that says "Get a personalized plan" in the "I want to..." box. It isn't carbohydrate that's bad--it's the kind of carbohydrate people choose to consume. More often than not, people choose refined carbohydrates over and over again. Whole grains are a really important part of the diet and need to be a significant part of carbohydrate consumption. Why do Americans like extremes so much? My nutrition instructor related an anecdote in class yesterday; she was at lunch on Thursday and overheard two women discussing nutrition. Being a professional, she eavesdropped, and heard them talking about their carbohydrate choices. One of the women started going off about how she had stopped eating white rice because it was unhealthy, and was only eating brown rice now. That's not how to approach eating, even eating for nutrition. No one's saying that people can't eat white rice or even fried rice (once in a while). The key thing is to make sure that at least half (if not more) of one's carbohydrate choices are whole grain choices that are high in fiber. I think people would be a lot more successful with changing their lifestyles if they stopped eliminating whole food groups. The fact of the matter is that for optimum nutrition, we need to eat a variety of foods from every food group, and get 30-60 minutes of physical activity a day. P.S. Thanks for helping me study for nutrition! All of the information found here is from my class notes or the MyPyramid.gov website. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

04-04-2009, 07:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	GOD, if you're worried about QW's blood pressure i can give you she-lish's details if you need to discuss anything in particular or specific. she deals and specialises in diabetes education, so she can be of great help. as far as the atkins diet is concerned, sack it. she-lish doesnt recommend it one bit. neither would any sane health professional..ever, usually she'll read BG's posts and agree with everything he says, so if a RD and RN is saying that, then you could take his advice. just out of curiosity...if your friends dont eat carbs and are following the atkinds diet, how bad does their breath stink??? __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

04-04-2009, 01:25 PM	#9 (permalink)
grumpyolddude Deliberately unfocused Location: Amazon.com and CDBaby	and the last shall be first.... dlish, I haven't noticed significant halitosis, although QW's is the only breath I experience with much intimacy. That's a good tip, though. I be sure to keep a nostril open for changes along that front. I'm keeping close tabs on QW's progress and making extra effort to discuss her diet with her, trying to strike a balance between a concerned sharing of information and preaching sound nutrition. She knows that, ultimately, I have her best interests in my heart and want to keep her around and healthy for a good, long time. Snowy, we have a very close family friend, a professional nutritionist with a fellowship at Michigan State University (Go Spartans!!), who has yet to weigh in on the subject. I'm absolutely certain that, once he catches wind of what QW's up to, all hell is gonna break loose. Considering that he's my eldest's oldest friend, and the son of her very closest friend, it's incredible that the shit hasn't hit the fan to date. But, even the pros have differing opinions on many aspects of nutrition. My bosses brought in a couple of "experts" to conduct a series of meetings with the employees involved in our health care program to promote healthier lifestyles (motivated, not entirely, by the prospects of lowering health related expenses and lost work time). These folks had some fairly radical views concerning cholesterol control, enzyme supplements and food sourcing in general. The one thing I took from them was to avoid eating carbohydrates dry. They claim that an enzyme specific to lipids was crucial to helping the body process carbs and store less as fat. In other words, a little bit of butter on your bread or potatoes does more than just make them taste better While I really appreciate everyone's input here, ratbastid has the info I'm really after: real world experience with the plan. You've hit upon my concern that the program is being misapplied and there are serious health issues being risked. QW is taking in some carbs, but no where near the 20g you mention. I'll be working on a strategy to get her to "cheat" a little more without making her feel she's failing the program. And BG... today I convinced QW to get some urine test strips. Whether they give worthwhile information or not, I figure that using them on a regular basis will keep her cognizant of the potential for problems and cause her to monitor things closely. I can't enforce lifestyle changes, only offer support and gently try to guide things. Thanks for the input, everyone. I'd still like to hear a few more real world experiences. __________________ "Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

04-04-2009, 05:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
ItWasMe But You'll Never Prove It. Location: under your bed	I was on Atkins for a while, about 11 years ago. I did it for several months. Atkins (back then, don't know about now) is NOT about NO carbs. And it's not exactly an all-you-can-eat bacon eggs & cheese bar. In fact, cheese is supposed to be limited to 1-2 ounces per day of hard cheese. Soft cheese isn't even on the menu for a while. For two weeks, it's 20 carbs per day, as Ratbastid said. After 2-4 weeks (although supposedly you can wait for up to 6 months), the plan is to reintroduce more carbs to your diet, a little more each week. And to be smart about ... Fruits and whole grain breads and such ... but more with a low glycemic index number, and sparingly with higher G.I. numbers. Such as blueberries vs. peaches. Whole grain bread vs. worthless white bread. They key was to learn to not spike your blood sugar and then drop low, but to keep it even with healthier foods. My experience: The CON's: The first day was ok, but days 2 & 3 (going into the 'induction phase') I had intense cravings for a potato or a roll. Like a smoker quitting cold turkey. What I call 'dog poop' breath. Not kidding; that is what it smelled like. Had to use breath sprays and/or sugar free mints every hour. It was often inconvenient when eating at work. Alot of processed 'low carb' foods, such as bars, are high in sugar alcohols (for sugar free sweetness) and fiber. Too much sugar alcohol causes the same problems as too much fiber. The PRO's: I lost weight. I lost it more quickly when I was taking in fewer carbs. I stopped taking all reflux meds because my GURD basically disappeared while on the low (not no) carb diet. It returned when I went off the diet ... but I learned which foods aggravate it (NOT fats, as the doc originally thought ... but combination of salt and high carb). I had blood work done. Blood pressure and cholesterol levels actually improved while on the diet. Oddly, I had more energy at the gym. I stopped getting shaky and tired before meals. I got hungry at the next mealtime, but I was not hungry or having cravings between meals. __________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

04-04-2009, 07:03 PM	#12 (permalink)
grumpyolddude Deliberately unfocused Location: Amazon.com and CDBaby	Great responses! Thanks! It's obvious that there's still a lot for me to learn about this. I've a bit of reading ahead. __________________ "Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

04-05-2009, 06:47 PM	#14 (permalink)
grumpyolddude Deliberately unfocused Location: Amazon.com and CDBaby	Thanks, ItWasMe. Turns out, QW has the book, and WE are reading it. I've spent a lot of the past two days harping on the 20g carbs and balance in her diet. We just returned from dinner, which did include a modest amount of carbs That's a pretty interesting bit of info in your response, concerning GURD. Have you been able to keep that under control over the years since your Atkins experience? You say that you lost weight, but was it sustainable? __________________ "Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

04-06-2009, 03:21 AM	#15 (permalink)
ItWasMe But You'll Never Prove It. Location: under your bed	Well ... my weight was sustainable to a point, because couple of months after I quit the diet I got pregnant. So it went up a bit after my pregnancy cravings. After that, It was okay until about a year ago when I went on blood pressure meds and it started creeping back up because they lower the heartrate/metabolism. I spoke to a couple of people who had done Atkins when I was 'on the diet.' They had kept it off for a couple of years. But I think it only works for good if you treat it as al ifestyle change and not a diet. As with any diet. By the way, the first two weeks are a bit more restrictive. It's called the 'induction phase' and those 20 carbs aren't supposed to come from just anywhere. An ounce of cheese is 1gm. And if she eats processed meat, things like hot dogs are going to ring in at about 5gm each. Creamer for your coffee can be 1gm - 5gm unflavored, depending on what kind you use. Once she's past the induction phase, she can even slice up part of a banana or such with her breakfast. I think a banana from my fingertips to my wrist is between 15-20. And a cup of milk is between 9-12 (depending on fat content) so you can still get in your calcium besides cheese. And nothing wrong with eating 1/2 slice of whole grain toast (7-11 carbs for 1/2 slice) instead of two whole pieces that a restaurant gives you when you want some with breakfast. Just remember you don't want all your daily carbs at once. You want to avoid an insulin spike. I have a digital scale that helps me count when I'm not sure, and it comes in handy. Several years after Atkins, one of our girls was diagnosed with diabetes, so I still have to count those puppies and pay attention to fast sugars and such. One of my best friends is now CalorieKing - Diet and weight loss. Calorie Counter and more You can get all kinds of nutrition information (carbs/sugars/calories/cholesterol/etc) on everything from fresh produce to fast food items. Give it a peek. __________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe Last edited by ItWasMe; 04-06-2009 at 03:27 AM.. Reason: forgot something

04-06-2009, 04:51 AM	#16 (permalink)
Iliftrocks Junkie Location: Near Raleigh, NC	I've basically cut out breads and high-carb foods, such as potatos, chips, etc. and mostly processed stuff out of my diet. I'm not "low-carbing" so to speak, but I am trying to fill the empty hole in my diet with more veggies and fruits. I don't miss bread, rice, and pasta, pretty much at all. I will, on the weekend, eat a little of those things, but I'm getting to where I don't even want them on the weekend. My next step is to actually cut calories. I've tried getting rid of sugar in my drink, but I started using Splenda, only to find out I was allergic, so now I'm weaning myself onto sugarless beverages..... THAT'S what I'm going to miss..... I've got cousins doing "Atkins" diets. They don't seem to understand that after a certain point, you add in more carbs, either. It's a shame, because the end diet from the book, is actually pretty sane. As far as grains go. I learned in anthropology, that a lot of diseases, including tooth decay, were only found in humans, AFTER grains were incorporated in the diet. There are some interesting things to read about it. One site, that I'm not finished reading, but is somewhat topical: Evolutionary Discordance of Grains/Legumes in the Human Diet __________________ bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

04-06-2009, 02:47 PM	#18 (permalink)
ItWasMe But You'll Never Prove It. Location: under your bed	Grumpy, just curious ... is QW her initials, or does it stand for Queen Woman, Quacky Wife, Quirky Woman, Quizzical Wildflower? __________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

04-06-2009, 07:33 PM	#20 (permalink)
newtx Addict	I must admit the Atkin's Diet worked for me. So far the only diet that has. Probably not completely healthy in the long term but it did work. Not no carbs- just low carbs. My problem with this was body odor. Not bad breath or anything so simple but body odor due to the fat escaping from the ketosis. The South Beach Diet is much better in the long haul. (imo)