"You're just trying to be RIGHT!!!"

[Jinn]

"You're just trying to be RIGHT!"

I've heard this phrase all-too-often throughout my life, and I've usually dismissed it as an ignorant fool who would rather feel vindicated that they are still "right" than someone who is willing to learn. In most cases, this is true. However, I've been hearing it lately from my SO (a very intelligent person herself) and I've begun to wonder if it is true.

TFP being the open-minded "agree-to-disagree" forum that is, this is certainly the best place to ask for help with this problem. It seems especially fitting considering the thread in Politics asking the Forum to be more open-minded. Perhaps others will learn from my situation.

I recently had a discussion with a good friend of mine and it helped me quickly decide what I believe the problem is.

I believe anyone with a valuable insight into a conversation deserves consideration, which is why this Forum appeals to me. However, I believe intelligence comes with its own unique burden. In my own eyes, it would be a travesty to let someone remain ignorant to a fact that I could easily convey to them. In my conversation, I presented an example:

I am at a party with a bunch of friends, and someone says "No, man.. shrooms are bad for you." Having done extensive research on Psilocybin mushrooms, I know that they have no known long-term side effects. Indeed, they are safer for our bodies than this alcohol that we’re drinking. At this point, I am faced with a simple decision.

I could not share the knowledge I possess, and let this person disseminate incorrect information. This may be a bad example, but allowing someone to disseminate incorrect information has many ramifications. In this example, the negative ramification is that the people he’s telling in turn spread the bad information. This information could prevent someone from trying something they might enjoy. Discussion of drug-use aside, I think the point is clear.

The other option I am presented with is that I share my valuable insight. I chose this example because in many cases my friends would agree with me. This fact is however fairly unknown, so I may be the only person who previously believes this to be true. As such, I have a more critical audience. The “solution” I’ve been given to avoid the “YOU”RE JUST TRYING TO BE RIGHT!” situation is to “agree, and then disagree.” By this, they’d have me say “Well that’s true, but I believe X to be more correct.” How can a rational person agree with a false fact in order to present a true one? Does that not erode the basis of your very argument? If I deigned that he might be right that shrooms are bad, my argument that they are not bad has become very weak. Even still, it does not completely avoid the situation. A plausible conversation could go thus:

PersonA: "No, man.. shrooms are bad for you."
Me: “Well, that might be true, but I think shrooms are not bad.”
Me: “They have no known-long term side-effects, and they don’t even show positively on urine drug tests after a week.”
PersonA: “Whatever man, you’re just trying to be right.”

The situation still arose, even using what I consider to be weak “agree then disagree” argumentation. How do I avoid this situation, then? Even with “agree then disagree” phrasing, the person can still feel put-off that I am correcting him. His credibility has just been insulted, and this is enough to make most people angry. Further still, he could continue to insist his point was correct in an effort to retain this credibility. What then?

Many people have told me that anyone who would say “You’re just trying to be right!” is themselves stubborn, and I should avoid arguing with them. However, this is not an alternative I am willing to accept in the case of my SO.

Even more selfishly, I consider intelligence to carry its own burden. I feel I was gifted (whether through genetics, nurture, or my own response to my environment) with a great deal of intelligence. I feel that if I know something that can be used to further educate another individual I should provide that information to them. Not doing so seems like a travesty – spreading ignorance. On subjective matters, I still think it is my “duty” to offer my insight.

So.. does anyone else have this problem? More importantly, how do I avoid this situation in the future?

[Meier_Link]

I guess the best response would be, "Would you care to make a wager?" Let them put their money where their mouth is and see if they're still as confident about their stance.

However, in this situation I believe it could be argued that any psychedelic can be "bad for you" mentally if not physically. Most well adjusted people will have a good time on the stuff, most the time, but people suffering from depression, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder can be sent into a longer psychotic episode than just the 4 to 6 hours they bargained for.

[Jinn]

I realize it was perhaps a bad example, but the context of the argument aside I still have a problem. If the person were intelligent enough to argue the point you have, that would be a different situation entirely -- I think .. I'm assuming ignorance on the disbeliever's side...

[lurkette]

The issue is not whether your opinion is factually correct or not. The issue is whether you would rather make damn sure people know that you're smart and you know The Facts, or whether you'd rather keep the peace. There are times when standing up for the truth really does matter - when a friend is hurting him/herself, when people are making big decisions with the wrong information, etc. There are other times when you have to ask yourself whether being right is worth alienating other people. You can be an idealist and insist that you're just doing ignorant people a favor by educating them, but it's going to be mightly lonely at the top of the intellectual food chain. My advice: pick your battles. Learn to tell the difference between offering information as a service to people who care and want advice, and being an insufferable know-it-all.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by lurkette

The issue is not whether your opinion is factually correct or not. The issue is whether you would rather make damn sure people know that you're smart and you know The Facts, or whether you'd rather keep the peace. There are times when standing up for the truth really does matter - when a friend is hurting him/herself, when people are making big decisions with the wrong information, etc. There are other times when you have to ask yourself whether being right is worth alienating other people. You can be an idealist and insist that you're just doing ignorant people a favor by educating them, but it's going to be mightly lonely at the top of the intellectual food chain. My advice: pick your battles. Learn to tell the difference between offering information as a service to people who care and want advice, and being an insufferable know-it-all.

Unsolicited responses are usually unwanted and intrusive, even for loved ones. Knowledge sometimes cuts deeper than knives... one has to know when to use it and when to just keep walking.

[abaya]

"They won't care what you know, until they know that you care." No one will care whether or not your facts are right, if it sounds like you THINK you know better than them. This is regardless of whether or not you are actually right.

Take for example a group of high schoolers. I bring up this example because it was one I faced daily for a period of time, when I was a teacher. Their bullshit detectors are 100% accurate... not necessarily about whether my facts were right, but about whether or not I was some abstract intellectual who was going to lecture them; or if I genuinely cared for them and would listen to their experiences, right or wrong. Empathy and rapport, I found, were much better teachers than mere presentation of facts.

At the risk of sounding like I Am Right: through my own mistakes, I've learned that intelligence isn't about "teaching" people. It's about knowing the right time and place for truth. Sometimes, people just do not want the truth, and it is not your job as a common person to force it on them.

Now, if they ask for advice, or if your official job is one of a teacher or boss, then that's something else. Then you are given authority of some kind to share knowledge.

[Jinn]

Originally Posted by lurkette

The issue is whether you would rather make damn sure people know that you're smart and you know The Facts

While I don't know that this is the case now, I definitely suffered from this behavior in the past. Its easy to see that "making damn sure people know that you're smart and know The Facts" is an ego boost and I certainly enjoy it. Its also fairly obvious that this stems from an insecurity in my intelligence -- how should I remove this insecurity, then?

[Jinn]

Wow -- thank you all for your quick responses. Cyn, that's quite quotable.. I think I might print that out as a reminder to myself.

Unsolicited responses are usually unwanted and intrusive, even for loved ones. Knowledge sometimes cuts deeper than knives... one has to know when to use it and when to just keep walking.

abaya: How do you personally gauge whether the person wants to know the truth? It seems to me that making the decision FOR the person whether you tell them the "truth" is deceptive. It's something I need to work on, but I can't fathom an example when someone would not need to know the truth? I personally hate to be given false information in an effort to keep the peace. I'd rather be told the truth and I'd be upset if someone made that decision for me.

[Ustwo]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

I started to write a long expose on this but having suffered this myself from time to time, I found the above book a good guide to being tactful in situations where you do not wish to make the other person feel like an idiot, even when they are being an idiot.

I haven't read it in about 5 years and I really need to re-read it. I've read it twice already, but its easy fall back into old habbits.

[abaya]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

abaya: How do you personally gauge whether the person wants to know the truth?

Well, the biggest indicator is that they ask you (or that they are a student, or someone who works under you). Then I feel like that person has given me authority to speak from my experience.

To me, it's more about sharing my experience, than thinking "Hey, they're an idiot, I'm smarter, let me make that obvious." There are at least seven different kinds of intelligence, and "book knowledge" or logical thinking is only one aspect of that. The person I am talking to may be an artistical or musical genius, or be able to build a house without a blueprint, even if he or she knows little about politics or physics or history... but they sure as hell don't feel compelled to lecture me on the things they know better than I do.

What I care for is whether or not people are humble enough to be curious, even about things beyond their realm of intelligence. That, to me, tells me what kind of character they have, and that is the standard I try (and often fail) to uphold.

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I personally hate to be given false information in an effort to keep the peace. I'd rather be told the truth and I'd be upset if someone made that decision for me.

I think your assumption here is that someone would either give you the truth, or give you false information. However, there is also the middle road of silence.

Holding back information in order to listen to someone else and respect their experience is not the same as lying to someone. It is understanding that what you have to say may not actually be very important at all to them, and that really, you might just have something to learn from them. In either case, there's no need to assert yourself (other than to promote your ego) unless it's a life or death situation.

Make room in yourself for other people; you'll be surprised at the result. I don't do this enough, and I know I suffer for it. We're not as intelligent as we think we are.

[Jinn]

Holding back information in order to listen to someone else and respect their experience is not the same as lying to someone.

I apologize if I appear argumentative (imagine that): but I can see doing this in a philosophical situation. Arguing religion, I can certainly value the other person's experiences and realize that there is a gray as well as a black and white. But in strict Matters of Fact... what do I have to "gain" from listening to this person spread misinformation?

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I apologize if I appear argumentative (imagine that): but I can see doing this in a philosophical situation. Arguing religion, I can certainly value the other person's experiences and realize that there is a gray as well as a black and white. But in strict Matters of Fact... what do I have to "gain" from listening to this person spread misinformation?

what do you have to "gain" by correcting someone?

[Jinn]

I don't -- they gain knowledge. It's selfless, you see.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I don't -- they gain knowledge. It's selfless, you see.

Originally Posted by jinnkai

While I don't know that this is the case now, I definitely suffered from this behavior in the past. Its easy to see that "making damn sure people know that you're smart and know The Facts" is an ego boost and I certainly enjoy it. Its also fairly obvious that this stems from an insecurity in my intelligence -- how should I remove this insecurity, then?

you gain some sort of satisfaction...

[Jinn]

So perhaps the solution is to analyze whether the reason for offering my knowledge is completely selfless (an effort to educate) or selfish (an effort to appear intelligent) and withhold that information if it is the latter?

Hmmm...

[Lead543]

Nobody likes to be told that they're wrong.

You have to pick your battles. "Drugs are bad for you" is more or less an opinion. They're bad in someways, good in others, there's a definite emotional/physical split when it comes to their effects. If someone is preaching a "truth" that is incorrect factually by all means speak up. If you disagree with an opinion speak up. Don't use your intelligence as a weapon to cut people down, it's a gift to be smart, not everyone has it.

You don't always have to be right. Other people don't always have to be right.

[lurkette]

There are also more and less effective ways to introduce information than to outright say "that's wrong, and here's the Truth...". EVERYBODY wants to be right, and telling someone they're mistaken automatically puts them on the defensive, especially if they haven't asked for your advice. And double-especially if it's done in front of other people. In that state of mind, they simply can't hear anything you say except as an attack on them. I've found that asking questions like "really, tell me more about that" or "hmm...where did you hear that?" gives me an opportunity to find out more about their position before I decide if it's appropriate for me to chime in. For example, the hypothetical conversation you cite above might go something like this:

"Shrooms are bad for you!"
"Really? How so?"
"They contain blahblahblah chemical compound that has this and such effect on the nervous system and yadda yadda yadda."
"Ah, I see. I had heard that really alcohol was much worse for you, and that the effect of shrooms was fairly temporary, but I can see how some people might be negatively affected."
etc.

You've given them an opportunity to voice their opinion, you've acknowledged its validity, and you've politely inserted your own point of view without directly contradicting them.

[abaya]

JinnKai, I've been trying to think of where I struggle with this the most... and I think it's when I fear for my own safety or life. Then I feel most justified to correct someone... since then, I obviously have something to gain: my own life!

This happens often when I am the passenger in a car, mostly because when I was learning to drive, my parents made sure to alert me whenever they felt their lives were in danger (and thus I learned how to drive with pretty harsh teachers, which I'm grateful for now).

I've learned that quite a few people haven't had the same instruction, and so I find myself KNOWING that I am right about particular driving situations and skills (not all; I speed, and I park illegally), and yet when I often speak up about this, the driver invariably gets offended/defensive. This includes my boyfriend, friends, and even my own dad.

I try to say things gently, but I really don't know how else to communicate this knowledge. Do I wait until someone driving asks me for advice, after they've already crashed into the car in front? Does anyone have experience with this?

I've never heard this saying before - and I don't understand someone using it.

However, I have come across people who have taken pains to correct me, or point out errors in what I say or do. Most of the time they are wrong, or appear to be looking for things to correct - while the real point of the conversation is about something else entirely, they'll pick up and point out errors in the slightest and most irrelevant detail. It's interesting to think that this might stem from insecurity about their level of intelligence. I'd always put it down to them being overly anal, just plain annoying, or maybe suffering from overly critical parents or something - but this makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

However, I'm confused in that you state in your opening post that you are "gifted with a great deal of intelligence" and yet later, you say that you feel insecure about it.
Which is it?

[Jinn]

I'm smart, but I dont think people know it. IQ Tests, MENSA entrance exam, standardized tests. They all "tell" me I'm smart.. but people don't.. hence the insecurity.

How do you mean people don't? I mean, I don't get people telling me I'm smart, or stupid, or anything in-between. Do people (or did people in the past) tell you you're not smart?

My advice would be to allow yourself to <b>be</b> smart, and not feel like you have to show other people that you are smart. As abaya states, most people have a pretty accurate bs filter - if you tell someone something (that might be 100% factually correct) but tell them in order to show how smart you are, you will instead look as though you are being a know-it-all (almost exactly how I'm sounding now?!).

In fact, they may go the other way and think to themselves "That JinnKai thinks he's so smart, but you know what?..."

It doesn't matter what you say, it's the motives behind all that which count. So forget trying to tell people you're smart (they'll figure it out for themselves) just let yourself be yourself. I know, it's so much easier than it sounds - I'm still trying to get the hang of it myself.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I'm smart, but I dont think people know it. IQ Tests, MENSA entrance exam, standardized tests. They all "tell" me I'm smart.. but people don't.. hence the insecurity.

why do you feel people need to "know"? from what I'm gathering from this thread is you need to have some sort of validation to your intellect.

A martial arts master doesn't need to show off to prove his skills, he uses them prudently and effectively when called upon.

[Jinn]

'Cuz then I'm a worthwhile human being...

How sad!

[Cynthetiq]

you are a worthwhile human being just for being.

[Daniel_]

I get this all the time.

Sometimes you have to use your intillect to make a cost/benefit analysis.

Cost = some arse punches you
benefit = the same arse now knows that the second law of thermodynamics prevents spontaneous generation of complex forms.

outcome - don't tell redneck that "life just sorta _happened_, man" is a patently stupid opinion.

There are times when you have to say nothing and suffer fools.

Other times, call them on it.

Try asking "how do you know that". Or "I read in _Nature_ magazine that there's no research backing you up - what do you think?"

DO NOT TELL PEOPLE THEY'RE WRONG.

Tell them you heard different and challenge them to explain why what you heard is crap.

Daniel, you got punched for trying to stand up for creationism? Tough call.

[Jinn]

I woulda punched him too...

&lt;evil&gt;Yeah, that 2nd law of thermodynamics argument is pretty lame, I don't recall seeing it being backed up in nature magazine...&lt;/evil&gt;

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I'm smart, but I dont think people know it. IQ Tests, MENSA entrance exam, standardized tests. They all "tell" me I'm smart.. but people don't.. hence the insecurity.

Well perhaps that is the root of your problem. You want people to know you are smart, so you try to prove it.

Your mannerisms may well convey that desire to whoever you are talking to. You may well be correct but instead of being normal conversation it sounds like you are trying to one up them.

So instead your conversation could go something like this.

X: Shrooms are bad for you.
You: Really? I thought they didn't have any long term effects?

At this point, you show you are interested in their knowledge, and at the same time they have to put up or shut up so to speak.

Who knows you might learn something you didn't know, you showed you have some knowledge of the subject, and you didn't say they were wrong. At the same time the person Mr. X was talking too now has another opinion.

[skysooner]

Let your actions speak for you rather than trying to let everyone know how intelligent you are. I was much happier in life when I just stopped to listen and then might offer an amendment (i.e. I heard it differently.....). This type of phrasing is less intimidating. There are also many times when it isn't a good idea to offer any sort of corrections. My wife is highly directionally challenged. She goes a long way around to go to places via the routes she knows. I can sometimes offer her advice, but typically now I wait for the phone call saying she is lost before I tell her how to get from Point A to B now.

Lurkette's first post was exactly what I would have said on this topic.

[eMOTIONal20]

I currently suffer from being the SO of someone who likes to be right just about all of the time. I know how this goes, but as he has said before, we are like freakin’ twins, so I myself try to be right a lot of the time as well. This is difficult for us--we butt heads like none other, but I still manage to love him even more after an argument.

I am in complete agreement with Ustwo… perhaps to prove this intelligence to people (and not make it seem as though you are attacking the person) ask them why they think something is right. If they have nothing else to say, and nothing to back up their thoughts, then you have already proven their ignorance about the subject, and no insults or attacking is needed. Then it is your opportunity to teach someone without making them feel stupid and wrong.

In the case of your SO, attacking is never an option, no matter how ignorant she may come off to be during the course of an argument. Most of the time, with my SO, we find ourselves arguing over little things that are only a complete communication issue. If you find this happening with your SO (which is quite probable) then I suggest ASKING her why she thinks the way she does, or what she is really trying to say to you, instead of assuming.

On another note, I never need my SO to prove to me that he is smart. I already know he is. I imagine a lot of people already know you are smart. When you just simply teach people, they can tell you’re smart. Telling someone they’re stupid and wrong does not prove your intelligence, so you don’t need to do it.

I just learned a lot about myself and my issue with trying to be right a lot of the time. Thanks.

[Jinn]

oy... people these days.. I love you too.............. "eMOTIONal20" !!!

[eMOTIONal20]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

oy... people these days.. I love you too.............. "eMOTIONal20" !!!

yeah yeah yeah... just watch yourself buddy... tell me i'm wrong again... see what happens. <3

[Ratman]

Ignorance is bliss. Let the masses be happy.

Seriously, it is not your (or my, or anyone else's) responsibility to make sure that everyone knows the facts, or the truth. If you have a responsibility, it is to inspire those less intellectually gifted to seek knowledge on their own behalf. Just remember that UPN, FOX, Rush Limbaugh, etc. are laughing so hard all the way to the bank that they are wetting their pants. Most people just can't be bothered with thinking.

Also, don't assume that the reason for someone's comment about anything is based soley on ignorance or misinformation. For instance, the person that says "Shrooms are bad for you." may have had a friend that tried to fly off of a cliff on the Oregon coast after taking shrooms. It is not your duty to ensure that the next time they talk about this incident they say "While it has been scientifically proven that psylocibin ingested in the form of mushrooms has no apparent long-term side effects, and indeed cannot be detected in most urinalyses after a roughly seven day period, my personal experience would lead me to believe that it can cause unpredictable, errratic, and sometimes fatal behavior in some individuals."

There are several members here that are, or could be Mensans, a couple of whom have already posted on this thread. The Mensa thread is long gone, but even those who have no idea who I am talking about respect these member's intellect, not because they TELL everyone they are smart, but because they conduct their discussion in a way that is mature and constructive.

[Jinn]

Update, three and a half years later..

No one says this to me anymore. I lightened up and realized that learning is for those who are willing. I also got the big chip off my shoulder and realized I'm not the all-knowing God of Knowledge. There are plenty of things I don't know, either.

[snowy]

Originally Posted by Jinn

Update, three and a half years later..

No one says this to me anymore. I lightened up and realized that learning is for those who are willing. I also got the big chip off my shoulder and realized I'm not the all-knowing God of Knowledge. There are plenty of things I don't know, either.

Sometimes the best way to transmit knowledge is to admit you don't know something and become a co-investigator alongside your "student." I think I am a better teacher because I'm willing to acknowledge what I don't know.

I'm glad to see you've evolved, Jinn.

[Cynthetiq]

Nice to see Jinn. I feel the same way. thanks for the reminder, this is a daily and lifelong process.

[Lasereth]

I am plagued with this also. I do tend to let things go though. If a group of people are all having a good time and someone makes a joke based on something that is flat out wrong, I usually won't correct anyone but I do sometimes feel the urge to call someone out on their BS. If the person that is spewing the untrue fact is annoying in the slightest then I almost always correct them.

[Zeraph]

Originally Posted by lurkette

The issue is not whether your opinion is factually correct or not. The issue is whether you would rather make damn sure people know that you're smart and you know The Facts, or whether you'd rather keep the peace. There are times when standing up for the truth really does matter - when a friend is hurting him/herself, when people are making big decisions with the wrong information, etc. There are other times when you have to ask yourself whether being right is worth alienating other people. You can be an idealist and insist that you're just doing ignorant people a favor by educating them, but it's going to be mightly lonely at the top of the intellectual food chain. My advice: pick your battles. Learn to tell the difference between offering information as a service to people who care and want advice, and being an insufferable know-it-all.

Exactly. +1

[Jinn]

I'm not sure everyone caught the fact that this was a bump of a three year old thread..