Miss Mango

Do you think that once a man strikes a woman it can really never happen again?

I cant say this is true for all men, but that one that used to hit me did it more than once. The first time it was a slap, the next time it was a fist.

Since his way of dealing with anger was through hitting, Im sure he has slapped or punched his wife a few times as well assuming that she stuck around that long...

abaya

I don't care if it's a slap or a fist, it's a dealbreaker. And that's not just for men hitting women... if I were to ever strike my husband in anger, he would have every right to leave me, right then and there. It goes both ways.

There is no excuse for violence in a relationship, and there is no justification for tolerating it, either. I have very strict lines defining verbal, emotional, and physical abuse, and as soon as they're crossed, that's it. I watched my parents abuse each other in every way possible while I was growing up, and that is one cycle that I will not enter as an adult. Took some years of therapy to work that shit out, but it's very, very worth it.

Miss Mango, your situation does not sound good. What exactly is going on?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

little_tippler

I agree with abaya, it SHOULD be a dealbreaker. Thing is, a lot of times, contexts and situations aren't as clear cut as they seem when we talk about them hypothetically. Emotional abuse is often even harder to realize - often when you're in love you try to explain things away.

But yeah, a guy who strikes you once has it in him to do it again. So you're better off walking away.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

abaya

Oh, I know... I watched every single female do it in my family for my entire life (and they're still putting up with it, to this day). I know it doesn't seem as clear cut in real life, but truly, I don't have a lot of gray area in this sense. It comes down to knowing what you're worth (something that a lot of women don't have a good sense of, for various reasons in society and their families), and knowing that you have the strength to walk out of a situation, no matter what. That is what therapy was able to teach me, so that I wouldn't follow in my female relatives' footsteps. I get pretty sick of watching women throw themselves in front of the oncoming train that is a bad relationship, all to be "martyrs" because they "love" someone. As if it's a GOOD thing to love someone more than you love yourself?! Where do women get those ideas?

Being "in love" is HIGHLY overrated, compared to having a sense of self-worth and knowing how to stand up for yourself, not giving in to dangerous emotions. Of course, most women (including myself, back in the day) dive oh-so-willingly into the "I'm in looooove" pool, long before they've done the work to establish themselves as whole individuals. And so the cycle perpetuates... more and more justification, all in the guise of "love."

/off my soapbox now. This subject just gets me so riled. I know it's more complicated than this, but I don't have a lot of patience for it anymore. People have to make their choices, at some point.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

little_tippler

I too have witnessed this in my family. It takes time to develop the strength you're talking of, abaya. I also agree that being "in love" is overrated...and can be worse for you in many situations. It is important to know yourself and have the confidence to be an individual. As for giving in to dangerous emotions...myself I try to be open at all times but I try to always be aware and realize when the moment has come to hold back, then move on.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

pig

I think doing any actions once makes more probable that it will happen again. When physical (or emotional) abuse enters a relationship, a line has been crossed and a dangerous precedent has been established. I don't necessarily think it always means that the relationship has to end, but I think it does mean that both people have to be willing to recognize that it's occurring and to work on it...particularly with emotional abuse. With physical abuse, I think it just has to stop, and if the abused person wants to just walk away, I think that's a completely justifiable response. If it's perpetual, then the relationship needs to end. Otherwise, you're just enabling the abusive behavior.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Willravel

It's a sign that he's capable. Don't mate with men capable of that, and we can allow natural selection to remove the genetic predisposition from the pool!

But seriously, leave and don't look back. Once abusive, always abusive.

dd3953

I think that there is a good chance he will swing again. This goes for woman as well as men. If I can hit you, get you to do what I want, and feel like it fixed the problem, I've just learned that hitting helps. And what ever feedback I have from past relationships will be carried into the next. And while every person who hits someone once may not do it again (people are human and sometimes we just fuck up) I wanna say 98% of them will do it again. And it may be worth it to see if your partner is one of the 2%, once they hit you a second time it's time to do what Miss Mango did - Walk (or run) away.

__________________
[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]

levite

Guys who hit women are pond scum on the gene pool. They are miserable excuses for human beings.

I promise you, it is exceptionally easy not to hit someone. If a guy hits a woman, it's because he's the kind of guy who would hit a woman, and he can and will do it again. There is simply no excuse for it.

If you have a guy in your life who hit you, show him the door, and let it hit him in the ass on the way out. You don't deserve it, you're better than him, and your life will be better for his absence.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

lotsofmagnets

not sure about how well this fits in here but this is my own experience. i will start by saying my dad beat both me and my brother on many occasions through my childhood. was he an abusive father? definitely not. excessive perhaps at times but we knew he had a really rough childhood and this was how he was taught discipline was demonstrated. one night my parents went to a wine tasting and my dad had way too much to drink and became more drunk then any of my family had ever seen him. we suspect that a lot of issues from his childhood came out as he punched out several light globes, a birthday cake, most of his friends and he even hit my mum on the jaw. was his behaviour in any way excuseable? hell no. he had no memory of the previous night when he woke up and obviously had a lot of apologising and making up to do. is it possible for it to happen again? of course. all he needs to do is get drunk enough again and i guess it will end the same way. to combat this he will never drink more than one or 2 glasses of wine or will not have more than a beer, maybe 2 after working manual labour. it´s funny when i tell stories about my father and people always react about how horrible he sounds and they´d never want to meet him but i would never trade him for anyone and my mum or brother are in the same boat. and i´d go through the whole lot again to end up where i am no questions asked.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Xerxys

Scum of the earth, levite pretty much summed up my answer. I don't think it matters what the feedback is, he might just think it makes him feel better to hit. I know, my dad is on of those. Hitting never solved anything but he did it anyway. But I guess others should be give the benefit of the doubt, despite the fact that I think the death penalty should be spread down to them!!

Not to sound dumb, but I know as far as physical abuse goes, but what exactly constitutes emotional abuse??

thespian86

I have a pretty bad temper at times but I have never hit anyone. Sometimes I just leave the room, other times I just stew. Most of the time I just talk it out with my GF or whomever.

There are times that I want to hit people but I would think pretty badly of myself if I couldn't show a little self-restraint.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Shauk

You know, I always smirk at the men who take the holier than thou approach at men hitting women.

Women are people too, Women have equal rights, they have just as much right to pick a fight and deal with how they act amongst the manhood as men have the right to act like women.

*now that I have your attention*

No, I don't hit girls, but I leave the toilet seat up. shamelessly at that, Takes me the same effort to lift it up as it does for a woman to put it down.

I took 5 years in a relationship with a woman who had no problems hitting me because I was big and I could take it, she couldn't hurt me if she tried.

One day I was in a particularly bad mood and she just decided to dump her opinion on me about how my bad mood was the result of my own stupidity or some crap and then at one point just turned around and punched me in the stomach after I made the comment that she should probably stop talking if she wasn't going to contribute something positive to the conversation, which, in grumpinese comes across something like "if you're just going to sit there and bitch, just shutup until you have something meaningful to say"

anyways, my reaction to being gutsacked was to brush her off me (she was in my way) with my left arm and she lost her balance and dropped her bag and fell down on the lawn.

I felt pretty shitty for doing even that much, but the point is, had she been with someone less tolerant of her nagging bullshit, she would have had a fat lip and a black eye. She was being an intolerant bitch, and everyone knows i'm renowned for my patience with difficult people, at least, anyone who knows me IRL.

I don't have a holier than thou standard about it, some girls, despite being the weaker sex, deserve the violence they bring upon themselves. just like some jackass men also deserve the violence they bring upon themselves. Man or Woman, you run your mouth too much or start throwing punches, don't play the gender card if someone kicks your ass for it, especially after repeated warnings.

Punk.of.Ages

I agree with Shauk.

When you start debating the man vs. woman violence bit most people have only one situation in mind:

Man: I'm a crazed, raging, drunken asshole and you better get out of my way woman!

Woman: I'm sorry honey. I will move.

Man: *Kazaap*
*Fwap*
*Hiyah*
That's what you get bitch.

This situation is unacceptable. However, this isn't how it always goes down.

Not all women are helpless and weak. If a woman punches me in the face I will punch back.

Now, I grew up around abuse. My dad has never hesitated to hit a woman. My step-dad beat my mom, my siblings, and myself constantly. Methamphetamine brings out the worst in people, but that's a whole nother discussion.

Point being, I'm very accustomed to violence. Especially in situations that involve deep emotion. I understand where the typical man hitting woman situation arises from, and I know that darkness is in me. I tell every girl I get into a relationship with that it's there and the only way to combat it is to let me walk away when I try. There's usually no problem. I walk away, calm down, come back and apologize. There have been occasions where a girl cornered me and I snapped.

So, those of you who believe this means I'm a monster, no questions asked, you probably have no idea what the other side of the fence looks like.

I believe redemption is always a possibility.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Willravel

On the whole men are stronger than women. If a women's world champion kickboxer hits me, I might return the favor simply as a matter of preventing her from seriously hurting me, but the average woman? Give me a break.

If abaya or Miss Mango slugged me in the face (after getting over the initial shock, and possibly the giggles) I would simply use defensive moves. There would be absolutely no excuse for hitting back.

uncle phil

only time i would EVER hit a woman is if she hit me first, maliciously...

there are malicious bitches out there; thankfully, i haven't gotten that close to any of them yet...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Punk.of.Ages

You're right, tactics used definitely depends on the individual you're dealing with. Goes the same anytime anybody gets violent.

My point is that there are other situations than just the angry man, helpless woman one, and if a woman (or anybody else) hits me there will be reprimand.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

abaya

Shauk, did you miss that part of my post?

If I hit my husband, he SHOULD leave me, immediately. I would not expect him to tolerate me hitting him, anymore than I would tolerate him hitting me. Complete and total equal rights. But neither one of us should EVER hit the other person BACK, fuck no... nor does any person EVER "deserve" to be violently attacked. The hell is wrong with you people?!... I grew up with that kind of shit, and no fuckin' way I would want to perpetuate that in my own family. Fuckers like that deserve to be divorced, even myself if I do the hitting (doesn't matter if it doesn't hurt the other person... it's the intention and lack of character and self-control that says it all.)

Oh, and Will... don't fuck with me.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

PoA, your best option is to walk away. Don't assume you're entitled to retribution should a woman strike you, because that's where the excuse to hit back starts. You most certainly don't need to hit her back. You don't even need to respond. I've been struck a few times. It kinda stings. So what?

I said hit, not shoot!!! *dives for cover*

ktspktsp

Like some other people here, I don't see the point in making such a dichotomy between men and women on this issue. I would never, I hope, hit any person that wasn't attacking me. No matter the gender. Likewise, if somebody is attacking me, I will defend myself and hit back, no matter what their gender is.

I find the whole chivalrous attitude to be a bit sexist sometimes.

Edit: and I see 4 people posted between the time I started typing and the time I hit the post button. Active thread!

Willravel

You find it sexist that if a woman hits me (6' tall, 175 lbs, trained in martial arts for over 10 years) I won't hit her back?

ktspktsp

I see that you can handle the situation differently depending on the strength imbalance. If a stronger person gets hit, it's certainly best if they can control the situation without becoming violent. It is the right thing to do, and certainly not always easy to do so.

But, not every man is a martial arts expert, and not every woman is a tiny delicate creature. I would not be able to fend of an attack from a female world class kickboxing champion, for instance. Even the silver medalist would kick my ass, you know?

Punk.of.Ages

Easily said. Not always so easily done. If it was that simple there would be far fewer fights. Please note, though, that in my first post I stated that I always try to walk away.

I'm realizing my posts are kind of painting me to be a violent woman beater, and I'm not. Those times I've snapped I have held myself back and never actually harmed anybody. The simple point I've been trying to make is that shit is not always black and white. People make mistakes and that does not always mean they are doomed to repeat them. Some people were taught that violence is the only way to handle problems in life, so naturally they have a predisposition towards it. If they can realize that and take proper steps towards controlling that, as I have done, then they are redeemable.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Willravel

That was what I was referencing. And I honestly commend that attitude. It takes a big man (or woman) to walk away from a fight. And yes, it's not always easy.

abaya

Right on, once again I would expect that from both sides, at least in a marital relationship. Of course, if some dude is attacking me on the street, you better believe that I'll defend myself. But if my husband strikes me, I'm out the door, window, what have you, ASAP... and on my way to the police station and divorce court. Same goes for him. I see no reason to escalate any violent situation, if an exit is to be found.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ktspktsp

Yeah, I should also point out that I have not hit anybody since maybe I was 10 years old. And even then it was just with guys .

I should also clarify that I am not in favor of escalating a fight (so walking away is the right option if the hitting stops), but in favor of using self-defense if the hitting continues.

dlish

those bloody eye-ranians. cant help but use violence. the lot of them

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Willravel

I blame video games and rap music.

snowy

This thread is really interesting. I appreciate all of the contributions here. I have to say my answer would be no, and I would say that out of personal experience. The OP's question has no regard for context. This isn't a black or white issue. For instance, my SO has reflexes to hit out at anything that touches him when he sleeps (yes, there is a perfectly good reason for this, but it's not mine to tell), and yes, when we first started dating I sometimes got whacked by accident (not hard, he's asleep). Clearly, he's never done it on purpose or with intent--and that makes all the difference. If he did--well, we would be done, simple as that.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Shauk

we're not talking about sparring. We're not talking about going in to it with the mindset of having a decision "ok, yeah, i'm totally going to fight back"

it's not really something you prepare for.

Typically, yes, you can be like "yeah it's not something i'd do" and you can't even imagine what it would take to get you to that point, but anyone can be driven to a breaking point.

If this were a discussion about sterile test environments where test subjects were being monitored, thats one thing, but the reality of it is, emotion and logic are not friends.

There is no "logical" reason to be getting hit in the 1st place, when a logical person is presented with an illogical situation, they tend to get confused or pushed back to thier emotional side as well.

People don't logically conclude to resort to violence.

Willravel

I disagree. There's no such thing as an illogical situations, just illogical decisions. And those can be avoided, even in the heat of the moment.

Manic_Skafe

Yeah, the gender distinction is totally unnecessary. People simply shouldn't hit each other. And while it may seem so, it certainly isn't any more wrong for a man to hit a woman than the other way around.

Whether or not it'll happen again is entirely up to the couple involved but I think that it's important to realize - and while it's been alluded to, I'm surprised it hasn't been further expounded upon - violent relationships are not only mutually disadvantageous but also mutually abusive.

It's easy to place the blame solely upon the attacker but to allow yourself to be emotionally or physically abused is to do your lover and yourself a disservice. If you can't love and respect yourself enough to put up boundaries enough to ensure at the very least, your own physical safety then you can't realistically expect anything more from your lover.

And while it's almost too obvious that you can't love anyone if you don't love yourself - the abused party can't truly love their partner unless they demand nothing less than their respect and an environment proper enough to facilliate the healthy growth of their love.

So while I don't agree with the statement that "men who abuse women are scum of the earth" or that they're deserving of the death penalty - I do believe that the abuser and the abused deserve each other equally.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Seer666

Depends on why he did it. If it's he response to an argument, then better believe he can and will do it again. Get the fuck out right then and there. If it's because the women decided to elevate it to a physical fight, then more power to him. Not all violence against women is wrong. She wants to swing on someone like a man, then she can get knocked the fuck out like a man.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

lotsofmagnets

i suspect the intention of the OP was that the hitting was intentional. my ex used to hit me in her sleep as well but i never considered it violence per se, more she was just a violent sleeper...

and yes, the OP is a little vague

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

jewels

Classic. Starts with a slap and can only escalate as the novelty of the relationship erodes.

It would be a dealbreaker for me as well. I've seen too many friends endure this because "I love him". How can anyone respect theirself and excuse this type of behavior? I'd see it as, "He doesn't love me or he'd respect me."

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

lotsofmagnets

maybe it´s just my friends but none of the friends i have are in anything that´s even close to an abusive relationship. i know someone who was but that´s years into their history. i certainly wouldn´t tolerate it and along with most of the people i know i think i´d be out the door a fair time before the relationship degenerated to physical abuse

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Borla

I suppose there is some guy out there somewhere who hit a gf or their wife, then later regretted it so badly (maybe because of consequences such as her leaving, legal ramifications, etc.) that they never struck a female again. But I think that would be a very tiny minority.

Most guys that I've known/heard of doing that established it as a pattern of behavior. They were too weak mentally and emotionally to control their physical outbursts. People who reach adulthood without reaching that level of maturity rarely gain it later in life.

__________________
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde!!!!

Dragonknight

From what I've seen of human nature, if you do something once and get away with it, you are more then likely to do it again. So if a man hits a woman once and gets away with it, no matter what the reason he hit her for...He has shown is capability to do so once, and if she stays around he will do it again.

My question is this Miss Mango, are you a part of this situation by being in it or seeing it?

__________________
Freedom is NOT Free.

jewels

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

The_Dunedan

Just chiming in here to say that context needs consideration, along with intent and effect.

Violence within a relationship is intolerable, an absolute no-no. I don't care if it's your spouse, significant other, sibling, or roomate. The use of violence within a relationship is an attempt to establish dominance and control over another human being. The only -possible- exceptions I can see are when a point needs making RIGHTNOW, such as when I (6 years old at the time) accidentally "swept" my father's face with a .22 rifle. I woke up looking at the sky and wondering why my head hurt, but you can bet your skivvies I never did -that- again.

However, violence for the sake of dominance and control is another matter and is a sign of, as my Granny used to call it, "bad breeding." And well-bred people (such as those of us who know not to wail on our spouses) do not, should not, MUST not, associate with "badly bred" people. As Boston T. Party once put it, this is more than simple self-preservation, this is quality control

On the other hand, there's violence in self-defense. If someone comes after me with a weapon or with violent intent, I will use the minimum level of force which will preserve my life and liberties. If that minimum level happens to be a .45 because the person's coming after me with a boning knife, so be it, and I couldn't give a rat fart what their sex is.

My suggestion/opinion: Ladies, if your partner becomes violent, ESCALATE. Catastrophically and at once. Put the fucker down HARD. RIGHT NOW. Then leave without looking back. Guys, if your partner becomes violent, leave without looking back. The only reason for the difference is that most men are more than strong enough to shrug off most fists-and-feet assaults from a woman*, while the inverse is not true. It's all about being physically safe enough to walk away without looking back. And THAT'S the important part.

Leave. Don't look back.


*Some exceptions apply. I've met women martial artists like Gini Lau and Laura Truley whom I wouldn't take on with anything less than a 12-gauge.