Workers Unions: pro or con - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

smoore · 03-29-2008, 10:21 PM

So what the hell, right? You all seem like an intelligent bunch I might as well throw this subject out. I'm putting it in "Life" instead of "Politics" because I think it's better classified here.

I'm staunchly pro-union. I believe in the right for all workers in all sectors to unionize and collectively bargain. Civil Servants are not workers. I do not support the coercive tactics of unscrupulous unions recruiting people against their will. Union should be a choice, no ifs ands or buts. Full disclosure: I have run scabs off of my job sites. I am not currently union.

Perhaps the union in America has jumped the shark, I don't personally believe that but quite a few of my fellow citizens do. I also believe that the only way workers in the developing world will get a fair shake is if they unionize. The unions in America showed the robber barons how the workers were going to take it. Not so well if it meant oppression. Bad for robber barons, good for workers. The unions built the American middle class.

I don't only talk the talk, I walk the walk. As of today the last vestige of oppression clothing I own can go to the garbage can. Well, not today but when the UPS package gets here.

I just ordered enough Wigwam socks that I can toss these crappy Wal-Mart socks once they get here. 12 pair, baybee! I no longer buy Levis (Bangladesh), I now wear only Carhartt pants, both jeans for casual and duck canvas for work. Yes, I have yet to work out my Sunday clothes but I'll get 'em unionized before they know it.

I wear Red Wing shoes and boots, notwithstanding the single pair of Merrill mocs I'm wearing right now. I bought them before I decided to have the courage of my convictions and I'll wear 'em out. Who knows, maybe Merill is union, though I doubt it. Besides, my last pair of mocs from Solomon (China) were absolute crap. They bruised my feet on more than one long walk and ceremoniously went in the garbage last weekend.

I'm currently wearing Carhartt t-shirts but figure I can find another source for a little variety, perhaps some humor. Oh yeah, I also drink PBR. Not because I'm some freaky hipster but because I'm an honest-to-god blue collar worker and it says Union Made right on the can. I can't argue with that.

Lucky for me this is the extent of my clothing requirement. I get to walk around pro-Union all day, every day. Well, excepting those court appearances and the occasional wedding.

So what say the TFP denizens about Union Made? For it or again' it? Why?

Fotzlid · 03-29-2008, 10:41 PM

Card carrying union member here.
Don't like them. Only a member because I have to where I work.
My theory is the only way unions can continue is to survive is to foster animosity between staff and management. I think they cause more problems than they solve.
My biggest gripe with them is they make it easy for lazy/unproductive workers to remain on the job. In fact, they foster laziness by protecting those workers.
IMO, the only people that make out with unions are the people that run them.

Willravel · 03-30-2008, 12:55 AM

Pro. Workers unions are paramount to equality in the market.

Daniel_ · 03-30-2008, 02:51 AM

I used to work in the UK print industry, which was at the time the last vestige of strong union power in the country.

I saw the good: Management held to account for pomises made but not delivered on. Legal advice to members on issues as diverse as housing, motor insurance claims, divorces and wills. Collective representation in talks about factory closure and redundency terms.

I saw the bad: Workers threatening a walkout over a pay request that would have caused the factory to be closed as uneconomical - they knew this but said "the corporation is rich and should give some of it to us". The worst kind of demarkation - workers refusing to hold a ladder while I changed a light bulb in my office because that was an electrician's job - so they expected me to work i the dark for three days until our site engineer was on his rounds, or call in an electruician at £200 a visit.

I think on ballance unions are a force for equality and fairness (at their best) but their power has been too strong at times in the past in this country.

Martian · 03-30-2008, 03:03 AM

Unions are a great concept in theory, but in practice don't often work the way they're supposed to. Part of the problem with unions is that they are essentially just another type of corporation, and like any corporation they tend towards practices that maximize profits. Thus they collect dues from as many groups as possible but do their best to avoid any costly disputes - hence the saying in the warehouse I worked in that 'the union rep will always stand behind you - except when you need him.'

I also find your whole concept of only buying goods produced by unionised labour to be rather strange. What about industries where unionisation is impractical or unnecessary? And what precisely is the political statement that you're making here? Is it simply 'unions are good?' Because I would argue that this is an unrealistically simplistic stance on the issue. Unionisation is beneficial in some situations, but can be quite detrimental in others. In fact, as a whole, I regard unionisation in essentially the same way I regard communism - in a perfect world these ideas would be the key to solving the bulk of mankind's problems, but unfortunately the world we live in is not perfect and the practical implementations rarely if ever work out the way do on paper.

girldetective · 03-30-2008, 04:14 AM

I see unions as paramount to workers in US history. Without them you may be paid $.25/hr, your children may be working instead of going to school, you may be breathing in awful chemicals at your workplace, and so forth. Unions have been instrumental in creating the working conditions we see today in the US. Dues seem a small price to pay. Although a union may not always help an individual, they work well in setting precedent. This isnt to say we live in employment paradise, but it could be so much worse. As Ive said before, remember that many of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers lost their lives in forming unions. Reagan did much more when he broke unions than saving people dues. He began an erosion of safety, integrity, and so forth.

Derwood · 03-30-2008, 06:42 AM

i'm generally pro-Unions.

WalMart workers need to unionize in the worst way, but they never will

Mister Coaster · 03-30-2008, 06:57 AM

Unions have their time and place. In the days of the robber barrons, they certianly paved the way for fair treatment of workers. But, to say that unions are the only thing that could have achieved this is silly. If labor had not unionized back in the day, would workers in the US 2008 be the same slaves of the 19th century? Would minors be working? Would wages be below the poverty line? Of course not. Things balance themselves out, the industrial revolution swung the pendulum in favor of management, the pendulum would have eventually swung back.

Today unions are a mere shadow of what they once were. They exist only as a holdover from a day long past. I have worked for both union grocery stores and a non union store, I can say that the union store did absolutely nothing for me. When I was the 'best' man for the promotion, I was past up by someone with more seniority. When I had more seniority, I was passed up by someone who had better availability. When I had better availability, I was not the 'best' person for the job. And all of my union grievences fell on deaf ears
I was forced to be in the union (hefty initiation fees) and paid my dues (more fees) and every time I needed their help, I fill out my form and it gets ignored. I did finally get a promotion, now I get to pay a $250 'reclassification fee' to the union, WTF!?! $250 to file a piece of paper, blow me! Then when a merger comes I lose my job outright. Why? Because the rich want to get richer faster. Their plan is to run understaffed for 18 months, then hire new blood at apprentice 1 wages again. Where is the union to help me save my job? Nowhere, because the company is following the 'union guidelines' for layoffs. Guidelines or loopholes?

Meanwhile, the union rep drives a big-ass Caddy, wears expensive suits and does nothing but breeze through the shop stopping only for a few seconds to talk to laborers, but treats the store manager to a nice 2 hour, multi-drink lunch. Where are my dues and fees going? Looks like into the rep's pockets. It was a fucking bullshit waste of 6.5 years of my life.

I now work for a non-union store and my wages are higher, I get promoted based on my actual work, not just time in the company, and the benefits are on par with the union's. This company does these things because they want to hang onto good employees, not because they are being forced to by the antiquated union system.

Unions had their time and place, it's all over now, they need to be buried like the extinct dinosaurs they are.

ngdawg · 03-30-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Unions have their time and place. In the days of the robber barrons, they certianly paved the way for fair treatment of workers. But, to say that unions are the only thing that could have achieved this is silly. If labor had not unionized back in the day, would workers in the US 2008 be the same slaves of the 19th century? Would minors be working? Would wages be below the poverty line? Of course not. Things balance themselves out, the industrial revolution swung the pendulum in favor of management, the pendulum would have eventually swung back.

Today unions are a mere shadow of what they once were. They exist only as a holdover from a day long past. I have worked for both union grocery stores and a non union store, I can say that the union store did absolutely nothing for me. When I was the 'best' man for the promotion, I was past up by someone with more seniority. When I had more seniority, I was passed up by someone who had better availability. When I had better availability, I was not the 'best' person for the job. And all of my union grievences fell on deaf ears
I was forced to be in the union (hefty initiation fees) and paid my dues (more fees) and every time I needed their help, I fill out my form and it gets ignored. I did finally get a promotion, now I get to pay a $250 'reclassification fee' to the union, WTF!?! $250 to file a piece of paper, blow me! Then when a merger comes I lose my job outright. Why? Because the rich want to get richer faster. Their plan is to run understaffed for 18 months, then hire new blood at apprentice 1 wages again. Where is the union to help me save my job? Nowhere, because the company is following the 'union guidelines' for layoffs. Guidelines or loopholes?

Meanwhile, the union rep drives a big-ass Caddy, wears expensive suits and does nothing but breeze through the shop stopping only for a few seconds to talk to laborers, but treats the store manager to a nice 2 hour, multi-drink lunch. Where are my dues and fees going? Looks like into the rep's pockets. It was a fucking bullshit waste of 6.5 years of my life.

I now work for a non-union store and my wages are higher, I get promoted based on my actual work, not just time in the company, and the benefits are on par with the union's. This company does these things because they want to hang onto good employees, not because they are being forced to by the antiquated union system.

Unions had their time and place, it's all over now, they need to be buried like the extinct dinosaurs they are.

QFT.

I worked under the cover of the largest, most political union in NJ-the NJEA. Had no choice but to pay dues. The NJEA changed their rules in 2001, making laypeople no longer allowed to be asst teachers or aides. Only those already tenured could remain if a district used that clause; otherwise, all assts had to have a bachelor's degree or state(read NJEA-written) certification through a college. This meant that instead of an assistant teacher costing under $15k, the cost would now be a minimum of $26k each. More dues in the pockets of the union. Tenured teachers were subjected to being the second in classrooms, laypeople were shuffled around or let go....the domino effect from this led to higher taxes, more money in the union's pocket....and no backup from them, which was all along. During election years, we got inundated with flyers telling us who to vote for. Like I would bother listening.....
I've worked in places that had unions to which I didn't belong. The union workers got shit for pay, insurance coverage for them was no different than for us in the office and whether times were good or bad, we didn't get laid off, they did.
Federal and state laws protect the worker and there's no dues, per se. State unemployment and disability could be considered "dues", I guess.
If a union strikes, those people might get a daily stipend but they're screwed otherwise. I felt it ironic when every day, I was going to work in a little 6 person office, passing construction workers holding signs along the highway.
Yea, keep paying a union out of your paycheck so you can go on strike for some cause while your union rep drives his $40k car and has HIS job.....

thingstodo · 03-30-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Unions have their time and place. In the days of the robber barrons, they certianly paved the way for fair treatment of workers. But, to say that unions are the only thing that could have achieved this is silly. If labor had not unionized back in the day, would workers in the US 2008 be the same slaves of the 19th century? Would minors be working? Would wages be below the poverty line? Of course not. Things balance themselves out, the industrial revolution swung the pendulum in favor of management, the pendulum would have eventually swung back.

Today unions are a mere shadow of what they once were. They exist only as a holdover from a day long past. I have worked for both union grocery stores and a non union store, I can say that the union store did absolutely nothing for me. When I was the 'best' man for the promotion, I was past up by someone with more seniority. When I had more seniority, I was passed up by someone who had better availability. When I had better availability, I was not the 'best' person for the job. And all of my union grievences fell on deaf ears
I was forced to be in the union (hefty initiation fees) and paid my dues (more fees) and every time I needed their help, I fill out my form and it gets ignored. I did finally get a promotion, now I get to pay a $250 'reclassification fee' to the union, WTF!?! $250 to file a piece of paper, blow me! Then when a merger comes I lose my job outright. Why? Because the rich want to get richer faster. Their plan is to run understaffed for 18 months, then hire new blood at apprentice 1 wages again. Where is the union to help me save my job? Nowhere, because the company is following the 'union guidelines' for layoffs. Guidelines or loopholes?

Meanwhile, the union rep drives a big-ass Caddy, wears expensive suits and does nothing but breeze through the shop stopping only for a few seconds to talk to laborers, but treats the store manager to a nice 2 hour, multi-drink lunch. Where are my dues and fees going? Looks like into the rep's pockets. It was a fucking bullshit waste of 6.5 years of my life.

I now work for a non-union store and my wages are higher, I get promoted based on my actual work, not just time in the company, and the benefits are on par with the union's. This company does these things because they want to hang onto good employees, not because they are being forced to by the antiquated union system.

Unions had their time and place, it's all over now, they need to be buried like the extinct dinosaurs they are.

Nicely stated.

Unions are killing the Detroit Big Three. Why in the world would you strike at an axel plant when the industry is already in shambles. Even if you did get wages up and keep producing a product, it would cost more and then you'd need another wage increase. This strategy will only mean less work because more companies will go out of business. More work will go out of the country to places where people actually want to work.

If you don't like what goes on where you are working, leave and work somewhere else!

Most of the time these days union employees use their union affiliation to get out of work. They don't seem to care about the product they are producing, only what they have to do.

I've never been in a union and never will. And I never want to work someplace that has a union.

Baraka_Guru · 03-30-2008, 09:29 AM

I'm generally pro-union if the union makes sense. Unions are usually the result of poor management.

There are ineffective unions out there.

Unions are a necessary byproduct of the capitalist system. Capitalism cannot fully dehumanize workers without some resistance. Unions are that resistance.

smoore · 03-30-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fotzlid

My biggest gripe with them is they make it easy for lazy/unproductive workers to remain on the job. In fact, they foster laziness by protecting those workers.
IMO, the only people that make out with unions are the people that run them.

I have a problem with this too. How do we fix it? This is one of the reasons I'm not in a union shop right now. I work hard and when someone next to me is lazing around for the same, sometimes greater pay, it makes me jealous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

workers refusing to hold a ladder while I changed a light bulb in my office because that was an electrician's job

Yup, another example of idiocy. Fact is, replacing lamps is an easy task and not one that needs to be unionized. Instances like this make me think the union mentality has gone too far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Thus they collect dues from as many groups as possible but do their best to avoid any costly disputes - hence the saying in the warehouse I worked in that 'the union rep will always stand behind you - except when you need him.'

Fortunately, I have never been victimized like this. My union reps and stewards have always gone to bat for me when I needed them personally. It's definitely a reason I feel the way I do right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

I also find your whole concept of only buying goods produced by unionised labour to be rather strange. What about industries where unionisation is impractical or unnecessary? And what precisely is the political statement that you're making here?

By buying union made products, I have faith that the workers producing them are not exploited. Note I say faith, not belief. I have no real way of verifying these people have adequate working conditions and are paid a living wage so I resort to "Union Made" as a catch-all. This whole thing started when I watched those movies about Wal-Mart when I was union and started researching just what a sweatshop is. I can't support businesses that oppress workers any longer. I've been known to find the "Made in China" label on items my wife and I are discussing while in a store and categorically saying, "Nope, we're not going to buy that!" Yeah, it pisses her off.

I can't think of a single industry that could not be unionized besides the craft sorts where sole proprietorship reigns supreme. As a matter of fact my wedding ring was produced by an artisan working on her own in her garage. Hell, that's better than union! Unfortunately I lost that ring. It was a real bummer, I loved that thing.

The socks that prompted this post are Union Made in the USA. I was frankly amazed any socks were produced in the US in this day and age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by namako

This isnt to say we live in employment paradise, but it could be so much worse. As Ive said before, remember that many of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers lost their lives in forming unions. Reagan did much more when he broke unions than saving people dues. He began an erosion of safety, integrity, and so forth.

This is my main reason for supporting unions in the US. There are a lot of problems and I personally believe that if they don't get their act together they will die. Workers are turning against them for reasons such as those listed in this thread (and I'm sure we'll have more examples), corporations don't see the union as a viable workforce due to situations like the UAW. Unions must adapt or die. I'm not savvy enough to "fix" them myself and am at a loss for something to do about it.

The most high profile example of union-busting gone awry that affects everyone in this country is the air traffic controllers strike. Sure, the system ran along fine for a couple decades but now it's a shambles and everyones safety is at risk. There are multiple instances of overworked fatigued controllers making mistakes. Recently there was an incident caused because a controller had to leave his station so he didn't shit himself. Instead of the two controllers in the tower there was only one and he had been there for 5 or 6 hours without a break. Controllers are retiring in droves and there aren't enough young recruits to replace them. Who would for $12/hr? On another note I would be proud to be an ATC but they won't take me. I'm too old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Unions have their time and place. In the days of the robber barrons, they certianly paved the way for fair treatment of workers. But, to say that unions are the only thing that could have achieved this is silly. If labor had not unionized back in the day, would workers in the US 2008 be the same slaves of the 19th century? Would minors be working? Would wages be below the poverty line? Of course not. Things balance themselves out, the industrial revolution swung the pendulum in favor of management, the pendulum would have eventually swung back.

I disagree. Look at the horrible corporation Wal-Mart. They go so far as to require their employees to use public health care to improve the bottom line. It's required because Wal-Mart doesn't provide a health plan and the majority of it's workers can barely afford rent, let alone health care. This is not how one of the countries largest employers should behave. Without unions in the past I believe EVERY corporation would operate like this. Without unions what exactly would have stopped the robber barons? The only way to do it is to band together and collectively bargain.

I love the rest of your post and it describes succinctly what is wrong with unions in America today. I want my rep and my steward to make more money than me but why should they be paid what appears to be a CEO level income? That makes no sense.

I disagree with your last statement, unions don't need to be killed off they need to evolve and change to fit todays workplace. Without strong unions in the first world people in developing nations are going to have a much tougher time of it. We need to be leaders for the world in this regard.

ngdawg, I have a serious problem with the teachers union in this country today. They are setting education policy against the wishes of intelligent parents and politicians. Tenure is a concept I can't really get my head around. "Because I've been here so long you can't fire me." Uhhh, what? This subject could become a whole different thread.

I've never worked in a mixed union shop and have no idea what it's like. Sounds horrible for everyone involved.

thingstodo, I would rephrase it and say the UAW has already killed the big two . Chrysler was the first obvious casualty. Expect the other two to fall soon.

Cynthetiq · 03-30-2008, 01:18 PM

First, I live in a building that was built for Union members for Union members of the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union. Because of the history, the union members that work here SEIU Local 32BJ are hard working people. We do have some that aren't and because we know and understand how to deal with union procedures and politics, we can get people reassigned and fired with little difficulty.

Another benefit is that when the rest of the doormen, porters, mantenance workers strike in NYC, our workers do not. We have an understanding agreement that we will honor whatever is agreed upon at a later date. This means we do not bargain directly with the Union but accept whatever contract is negotiated at the end of the strike. This is a very nice convenience.

There are good unions, there are bad unions, just like there are bad members and good members. I have worked in buildings where nothing moved without 3 union members working together for a 1 person job. I have worked in buildings where the union members were the slowest of slowest workers. I have worked in buildings where the union members were good hard working people just not cost effective so in order to stay competitive we'd have to bid out to non-union members.

But what gets me is really the policies and procedures to get things done. In NYC it is near impossible to fire a teacher. The union is very strong. A couple founding members live in our buildings and I speak to them from time to time. They are very proud of the work that they have completed, and when I speak to them logically about something like below they do understand that it is a bit out of control for some situations.

Quote:

The regulations are so onerous that principals rarely even try to fire a teacher. Most just put the bad ones in pretend-work jobs, or sucker another school into taking them. (They call that the "dance of the lemons.") The city payrolls include hundreds of teachers who have been deemed incompetent, violent, or guilty of sexual misconduct. Since the schools are afraid to let them teach, they put them in so-called "rubber rooms" instead. There they read magazines, play cards, and chat, at a cost to New York taxpayers of $20 million a year.

Stupid in America the 20/20 segment by John Stossel highlights this as well. You can watch highlights here: Stupid in America

How To Fire A Teacher in NYC click to show

If you'd like a cute cartoon version:

How to Fire an Incompetent Teacher
An illustrated guide to New York's public school bureaucracy
howtofireanincompetentteacher.pdf

Derwood · 03-30-2008, 03:27 PM

the stereotype that union workers are lazy or unqualified really angers me. let's not paint the hundreds of thousands of union workers as lazy please

ngdawg · 03-30-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoore

I have a problem with this too. How do we fix it? This is one of the reasons I'm not in a union shop right now. I work hard and when someone next to me is lazing around for the same, sometimes greater pay, it makes me jealous.

Yup, another example of idiocy. Fact is, replacing lamps is an easy task and not one that needs to be unionized. Instances like this make me think the union mentality has gone too far.

Fortunately, I have never been victimized like this. My union reps and stewards have always gone to bat for me when I needed them personally. It's definitely a reason I feel the way I do right now.

By buying union made products, I have faith that the workers producing them are not exploited. Note I say faith, not belief. I have no real way of verifying these people have adequate working conditions and are paid a living wage so I resort to "Union Made" as a catch-all. This whole thing started when I watched those movies about Wal-Mart when I was union and started researching just what a sweatshop is. I can't support businesses that oppress workers any longer. I've been known to find the "Made in China" label on items my wife and I are discussing while in a store and categorically saying, "Nope, we're not going to buy that!" Yeah, it pisses her off.

I can't think of a single industry that could not be unionized besides the craft sorts where sole proprietorship reigns supreme. As a matter of fact my wedding ring was produced by an artisan working on her own in her garage. Hell, that's better than union! Unfortunately I lost that ring. It was a real bummer, I loved that thing.

The socks that prompted this post are Union Made in the USA. I was frankly amazed any socks were produced in the US in this day and age.

This is my main reason for supporting unions in the US. There are a lot of problems and I personally believe that if they don't get their act together they will die. Workers are turning against them for reasons such as those listed in this thread (and I'm sure we'll have more examples), corporations don't see the union as a viable workforce due to situations like the UAW. Unions must adapt or die. I'm not savvy enough to "fix" them myself and am at a loss for something to do about it.

The most high profile example of union-busting gone awry that affects everyone in this country is the air traffic controllers strike. Sure, the system ran along fine for a couple decades but now it's a shambles and everyones safety is at risk. There are multiple instances of overworked fatigued controllers making mistakes. Recently there was an incident caused because a controller had to leave his station so he didn't shit himself. Instead of the two controllers in the tower there was only one and he had been there for 5 or 6 hours without a break. Controllers are retiring in droves and there aren't enough young recruits to replace them. Who would for $12/hr? On another note I would be proud to be an ATC but they won't take me. I'm too old.

I disagree. Look at the horrible corporation Wal-Mart. They go so far as to require their employees to use public health care to improve the bottom line. It's required because Wal-Mart doesn't provide a health plan and the majority of it's workers can barely afford rent, let alone health care. This is not how one of the countries largest employers should behave. Without unions in the past I believe EVERY corporation would operate like this. Without unions what exactly would have stopped the robber barons? The only way to do it is to band together and collectively bargain.

I love the rest of your post and it describes succinctly what is wrong with unions in America today. I want my rep and my steward to make more money than me but why should they be paid what appears to be a CEO level income? That makes no sense.

I disagree with your last statement, unions don't need to be killed off they need to evolve and change to fit todays workplace. Without strong unions in the first world people in developing nations are going to have a much tougher time of it. We need to be leaders for the world in this regard.

ngdawg, I have a serious problem with the teachers union in this country today. They are setting education policy against the wishes of intelligent parents and politicians. Tenure is a concept I can't really get my head around. "Because I've been here so long you can't fire me." Uhhh, what? This subject could become a whole different thread.

I've never worked in a mixed union shop and have no idea what it's like. Sounds horrible for everyone involved.

thingstodo, I would rephrase it and say the UAW has already killed the big two . Chrysler was the first obvious casualty. Expect the other two to fall soon.

Where did you get that Walmart "information"? They do a lot of not so nice things, but they do offer healthcare. Of course, they might sue to recover healthcare money paid out(as they did with a woman disabled in an accident who won her lawsuit only to have her former employer, Walmart, sue her for their expenses, but that's another story). They also generally pay more than many other retailers. MacDonald's, for instance, generally starts at minimum wage; I read somewhere that Walmart's average starting pay is almost $9 an hour.
Two of the union manufacturers I worked for paid crap wages and in both those cases, the vast majority of the workers were limited English speaking immigrants. Sticking to a "buy union" method does not ensure anything, but it does help the US economy to an extent.

smoore · 03-30-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Where did you get that Walmart "information"? They do a lot of not so nice things, but they do offer healthcare. Of course, they might sue to recover healthcare money paid out(as they did with a woman disabled in an accident who won her lawsuit only to have her former employer, Walmart, sue her for their expenses, but that's another story). They also generally pay more than many other retailers. MacDonald's, for instance, generally starts at minimum wage; I read somewhere that Walmart's average starting pay is almost $9 an hour.
Two of the union manufacturers I worked for paid crap wages and in both those cases, the vast majority of the workers were limited English speaking immigrants. Sticking to a "buy union" method does not ensure anything, but it does help the US economy to an extent.

here: http://www.ufcw.org/take_action/walm...onbenefits.cfm

I mistyped, they don't offer reasonable health care. I should have proofread that post better.

What manufacturers did you work for? I want to know so I can research them. If they aren't paying a decent wage they can be sanctioned.

ngdawg · 03-30-2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoore

here: http://www.ufcw.org/take_action/walm...onbenefits.cfm

I mistyped, they don't offer reasonable health care. I should have proofread that post better.

What manufacturers did you work for? I want to know so I can research them. If they aren't paying a decent wage they can be sanctioned.

Wow, that $218 a month is a bargain!! We pay $105 a WEEK and have a yearly deductible of $2000.

Neither company is in business now. Heide Inc paid its workers less than $9 an hour making and packaging candy(as of when I left, 1992). As an accounting clerk in the office and not in the union, when I left I was making $10.25 an hour. They were bought out by Nestle (I think) several years ago. The second, Aberdeen Mfg, is/was a men's clothing manufacturer that supplied suits and coats to major department stores such as Macy's, Penney's, etc. It'd be impossible in that case to know what you're buying because the names were of the stores it supplied to.
The problem with sticking to a buy union ideal is that you might not be aware if there was a union or what the workers were paid, etc. "Made in the USA" is not an indication of fairness, decent wages or unionization.
Union in itself is not an indication of fairness.

smoore · 03-30-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Wow, that $218 a month is a bargain!! We pay $105 a WEEK and have a yearly deductible of $2000.

Neither company is in business now. Heide Inc paid its workers less than $9 an hour making and packaging candy(as of when I left, 1992). As an accounting clerk in the office and not in the union, when I left I was making $10.25 an hour. They were bought out by Nestle (I think) several years ago. The second, Aberdeen Mfg, is/was a men's clothing manufacturer that supplied suits and coats to major department stores such as Macy's, Penney's, etc. It'd be impossible in that case to know what you're buying because the names were of the stores it supplied to.
The problem with sticking to a buy union ideal is that you might not be aware if there was a union or what the workers were paid, etc. "Made in the USA" is not an indication of fairness, decent wages or unionization.
Union in itself is not an indication of fairness.

Youch! $420/mo? We pay $260/mo for full coverage on the wife and kids and emergency coverage on me. Dental and vision for all of us. I have a $500 deductible per incident and they have HMO coverage that I can't recall having a deductible paid even when my wife had surgery on her foot. This is through her European owned casino. I'm starting to suspect we have a pretty sweet deal.

You have to remember that Wal-Mart workers are making $8-10/hr for normally less than 40 hours per week. When you hack $55 off of each week's check it really hurts. It's certainly not like my situation where $260 out of a living wage still leaves plenty of money for the monthly nut.

I agree that Union Made might not stand up to what I want it to but it's at least a measure of security. I don't want children slaving away 12 hours a day to make my clothing. I get to feel smug and have quality garments to boot.

ngdawg · 03-30-2008, 08:03 PM

Most retailers are probably like that, but Walmart always gets singled out. I worked for Kohl's, which pays less than Walmart, generally schedules weeks less than 30 hours and offers coverage that most cannot afford either. Same with Sears, except they pay a bit more, but base many of their departments on commissions.
One of the problems I have always had with unions is "seniority" over performance-the teacher's union is the biggest user of this protocol. In the private sector, your contribution to the job means something. In a union, you just have to survive layoffs.

BogeyDope · 03-30-2008, 08:09 PM

To the extent I know, many unions in America are useless. If you are part of a major industry and strike, the companies/government will just hire someone else to do your job for cheaper/replace you [i.e. ATC strike under Reagan, Bag boy strike, etc].

Otherwise, pro. Without, we would be in a much worse position than we are now.

Nimetic · 04-04-2008, 03:11 PM

I'd agree with what Daniel_ said.

I've seen pros and cons for it.

girldetective · 04-04-2008, 04:24 PM

There will always be bureaucracies. It is a given in our society. Any worker's union that is there for the good of a group is worth supporting. The key word is "worker". This is just a basic truth throughout history. Do not be deceived that it cant happen here again. If it was so once, it can be so again. That is one reason to study history.

smoore · 04-05-2008, 12:34 AM

In case it matters I got my socks.

Great quality and very warm. Treated with some microbial something-or-other to help with stink. They do exactly what I expect socks to do and are nice and warm. On the short ride I did this afternoon they seemed to wick much better than my cheap Wal-Mart socks. Maybe not as good as my SmartWool socks but these are just the work socks at $2.66/pr in a three pack. I figure I'll replace the SmartWool with comparable Wigwam socks as they wear out.

Thanks for all the input. I want unions to always look out for the interest of the worker and I know that's not the reality. I need to find small ways I can change that and I'm starting to think it's just hot air if I'm not in the book. Looking for union employment this week as my trade has been gutted and I'm frankly sick of 2 week layoffs, low pay, no benefits and shitty hours.

Who knows, I might be enrolled in some labor relations course in a year. I'm getting old, maybe it's time to grow up.

03-29-2008, 10:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
smoore Crazy Location: West of Denver	Workers Unions: pro or con So what the hell, right? You all seem like an intelligent bunch I might as well throw this subject out. I'm putting it in "Life" instead of "Politics" because I think it's better classified here. I'm staunchly pro-union. I believe in the right for all workers in all sectors to unionize and collectively bargain. Civil Servants are not workers. I do not support the coercive tactics of unscrupulous unions recruiting people against their will. Union should be a choice, no ifs ands or buts. Full disclosure: I have run scabs off of my job sites. I am not currently union. Perhaps the union in America has jumped the shark, I don't personally believe that but quite a few of my fellow citizens do. I also believe that the only way workers in the developing world will get a fair shake is if they unionize. The unions in America showed the robber barons how the workers were going to take it. Not so well if it meant oppression. Bad for robber barons, good for workers. The unions built the American middle class. I don't only talk the talk, I walk the walk. As of today the last vestige of oppression clothing I own can go to the garbage can. Well, not today but when the UPS package gets here. I just ordered enough Wigwam socks that I can toss these crappy Wal-Mart socks once they get here. 12 pair, baybee! I no longer buy Levis (Bangladesh), I now wear only Carhartt pants, both jeans for casual and duck canvas for work. Yes, I have yet to work out my Sunday clothes but I'll get 'em unionized before they know it. I wear Red Wing shoes and boots, notwithstanding the single pair of Merrill mocs I'm wearing right now. I bought them before I decided to have the courage of my convictions and I'll wear 'em out. Who knows, maybe Merill is union, though I doubt it. Besides, my last pair of mocs from Solomon (China) were absolute crap. They bruised my feet on more than one long walk and ceremoniously went in the garbage last weekend. I'm currently wearing Carhartt t-shirts but figure I can find another source for a little variety, perhaps some humor. Oh yeah, I also drink PBR. Not because I'm some freaky hipster but because I'm an honest-to-god blue collar worker and it says Union Made right on the can. I can't argue with that. Lucky for me this is the extent of my clothing requirement. I get to walk around pro-Union all day, every day. Well, excepting those court appearances and the occasional wedding. So what say the TFP denizens about Union Made? For it or again' it? Why? __________________ smoore

03-30-2008, 02:51 AM	#4 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	I used to work in the UK print industry, which was at the time the last vestige of strong union power in the country. I saw the good: Management held to account for pomises made but not delivered on. Legal advice to members on issues as diverse as housing, motor insurance claims, divorces and wills. Collective representation in talks about factory closure and redundency terms. I saw the bad: Workers threatening a walkout over a pay request that would have caused the factory to be closed as uneconomical - they knew this but said "the corporation is rich and should give some of it to us". The worst kind of demarkation - workers refusing to hold a ladder while I changed a light bulb in my office because that was an electrician's job - so they expected me to work i the dark for three days until our site engineer was on his rounds, or call in an electruician at £200 a visit. I think on ballance unions are a force for equality and fairness (at their best) but their power has been too strong at times in the past in this country. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

03-30-2008, 03:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Unions are a great concept in theory, but in practice don't often work the way they're supposed to. Part of the problem with unions is that they are essentially just another type of corporation, and like any corporation they tend towards practices that maximize profits. Thus they collect dues from as many groups as possible but do their best to avoid any costly disputes - hence the saying in the warehouse I worked in that 'the union rep will always stand behind you - except when you need him.' I also find your whole concept of only buying goods produced by unionised labour to be rather strange. What about industries where unionisation is impractical or unnecessary? And what precisely is the political statement that you're making here? Is it simply 'unions are good?' Because I would argue that this is an unrealistically simplistic stance on the issue. Unionisation is beneficial in some situations, but can be quite detrimental in others. In fact, as a whole, I regard unionisation in essentially the same way I regard communism - in a perfect world these ideas would be the key to solving the bulk of mankind's problems, but unfortunately the world we live in is not perfect and the practical implementations rarely if ever work out the way do on paper. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

03-30-2008, 04:14 AM	#6 (permalink)
girldetective sufferable	I see unions as paramount to workers in US history. Without them you may be paid $.25/hr, your children may be working instead of going to school, you may be breathing in awful chemicals at your workplace, and so forth. Unions have been instrumental in creating the working conditions we see today in the US. Dues seem a small price to pay. Although a union may not always help an individual, they work well in setting precedent. This isnt to say we live in employment paradise, but it could be so much worse. As Ive said before, remember that many of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers lost their lives in forming unions. Reagan did much more when he broke unions than saving people dues. He began an erosion of safety, integrity, and so forth. __________________ As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

03-30-2008, 06:57 AM	#8 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Unions have their time and place. In the days of the robber barrons, they certianly paved the way for fair treatment of workers. But, to say that unions are the only thing that could have achieved this is silly. If labor had not unionized back in the day, would workers in the US 2008 be the same slaves of the 19th century? Would minors be working? Would wages be below the poverty line? Of course not. Things balance themselves out, the industrial revolution swung the pendulum in favor of management, the pendulum would have eventually swung back. Today unions are a mere shadow of what they once were. They exist only as a holdover from a day long past. I have worked for both union grocery stores and a non union store, I can say that the union store did absolutely nothing for me. When I was the 'best' man for the promotion, I was past up by someone with more seniority. When I had more seniority, I was passed up by someone who had better availability. When I had better availability, I was not the 'best' person for the job. And all of my union grievences fell on deaf ears I was forced to be in the union (hefty initiation fees) and paid my dues (more fees) and every time I needed their help, I fill out my form and it gets ignored. I did finally get a promotion, now I get to pay a $250 'reclassification fee' to the union, WTF!?! $250 to file a piece of paper, blow me! Then when a merger comes I lose my job outright. Why? Because the rich want to get richer faster. Their plan is to run understaffed for 18 months, then hire new blood at apprentice 1 wages again. Where is the union to help me save my job? Nowhere, because the company is following the 'union guidelines' for layoffs. Guidelines or loopholes? Meanwhile, the union rep drives a big-ass Caddy, wears expensive suits and does nothing but breeze through the shop stopping only for a few seconds to talk to laborers, but treats the store manager to a nice 2 hour, multi-drink lunch. Where are my dues and fees going? Looks like into the rep's pockets. It was a fucking bullshit waste of 6.5 years of my life. I now work for a non-union store and my wages are higher, I get promoted based on my actual work, not just time in the company, and the benefits are on par with the union's. This company does these things because they want to hang onto good employees, not because they are being forced to by the antiquated union system. Unions had their time and place, it's all over now, they need to be buried like the extinct dinosaurs they are. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW! Last edited by Mister Coaster; 03-30-2008 at 07:00 AM..

03-29-2008, 10:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Fotzlid Junkie Location: Greater Boston area	Card carrying union member here. Don't like them. Only a member because I have to where I work. My theory is the only way unions can continue is to survive is to foster animosity between staff and management. I think they cause more problems than they solve. My biggest gripe with them is they make it easy for lazy/unproductive workers to remain on the job. In fact, they foster laziness by protecting those workers. IMO, the only people that make out with unions are the people that run them.

03-30-2008, 12:55 AM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Pro. Workers unions are paramount to equality in the market.

03-30-2008, 06:42 AM	#7 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	i'm generally pro-Unions. WalMart workers need to unionize in the worst way, but they never will

03-30-2008, 09:29 AM	#11 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I'm generally pro-union if the union makes sense. Unions are usually the result of poor management. There are ineffective unions out there. Unions are a necessary byproduct of the capitalist system. Capitalism cannot fully dehumanize workers without some resistance. Unions are that resistance. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

03-30-2008, 03:27 PM	#14 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	the stereotype that union workers are lazy or unqualified really angers me. let's not paint the hundreds of thousands of union workers as lazy please

03-30-2008, 08:03 PM	#19 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	Most retailers are probably like that, but Walmart always gets singled out. I worked for Kohl's, which pays less than Walmart, generally schedules weeks less than 30 hours and offers coverage that most cannot afford either. Same with Sears, except they pay a bit more, but base many of their departments on commissions. One of the problems I have always had with unions is "seniority" over performance-the teacher's union is the biggest user of this protocol. In the private sector, your contribution to the job means something. In a union, you just have to survive layoffs.

03-30-2008, 08:09 PM	#20 (permalink)
BogeyDope Crazy	To the extent I know, many unions in America are useless. If you are part of a major industry and strike, the companies/government will just hire someone else to do your job for cheaper/replace you [i.e. ATC strike under Reagan, Bag boy strike, etc]. Otherwise, pro. Without, we would be in a much worse position than we are now. __________________ Focus. Control. Conviction. Resolve. A true ace lacks none of these attributes. Nothing can deter you from the task at hand except your own fears. This is your sky.

04-04-2008, 03:11 PM	#21 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	I'd agree with what Daniel_ said. I've seen pros and cons for it.

04-04-2008, 04:24 PM	#22 (permalink)
girldetective sufferable	There will always be bureaucracies. It is a given in our society. Any worker's union that is there for the good of a group is worth supporting. The key word is "worker". This is just a basic truth throughout history. Do not be deceived that it cant happen here again. If it was so once, it can be so again. That is one reason to study history. __________________ As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

04-05-2008, 12:34 AM	#23 (permalink)
smoore Crazy Location: West of Denver	In case it matters I got my socks. Great quality and very warm. Treated with some microbial something-or-other to help with stink. They do exactly what I expect socks to do and are nice and warm. On the short ride I did this afternoon they seemed to wick much better than my cheap Wal-Mart socks. Maybe not as good as my SmartWool socks but these are just the work socks at $2.66/pr in a three pack. I figure I'll replace the SmartWool with comparable Wigwam socks as they wear out. Thanks for all the input. I want unions to always look out for the interest of the worker and I know that's not the reality. I need to find small ways I can change that and I'm starting to think it's just hot air if I'm not in the book. Looking for union employment this week as my trade has been gutted and I'm frankly sick of 2 week layoffs, low pay, no benefits and shitty hours. Who knows, I might be enrolled in some labor relations course in a year. I'm getting old, maybe it's time to grow up. __________________ smoore