Shauk

Ok so I moved to Seattle, and when I say I moved to Seattle, i moved in the heart of down town, like i'm less than a mile from the columbia tower, the biggest building in Seattle.

heres my issue, I've never lived in a situation like this before, and apparently, retail outlets aren't very accommodating of you if you live in downtown Seattle because retail outlets dont exist down here.

Lets face it, small towns get you acustomed to shopping at big box solutions, Target, Wal-mart, Safeway, Best Buy, etc.. you see the trend here basically being that You know what you want, you go to the "popular" and well known store.

here? god, theres nothing, I have to drive to a suburb like edmonds/northgate/lynnwood.

it feels so backwards to me :\

live and learn i guess, but it kinda sucks, it defeats the whole purpose in my mind of even moving in to a downtown environment to begin with.

The only saving grace is that I'm within walking distance of some food places and my work place, and some night clubs/bars (but I only wanna go out to those like once a week if that)

it's just so weird though that if i want to go "shopping" like for actual groceries or goods, I have to drive 8-10 miles minimum.

kinda frustrating in a way cuz i'm in a year lease and i'd really like to move about 4 miles north of my location at this point to be halfway between work and the retail sector, but that's not happeneing for another 10 months.

blech.

oh and if you wanna see for yourself

http://lostinseattle.com/


my neighborhood
http://www.lostinseattle.com/LIS/-im...l18,5-18.shtml

allaboutmusic

Not that it necessarily helps you, but after all the trouble that superstores and malls have caused small retailers, I'm glad there are some places where small retailers can still thrive. At least you have a car... after I shop, I have to take two different buses and walk 15 minutes to get home.

Charlatan

Weird... I've lived in at least three cities and have lived downtown. I've never had a problem shopping for anything.

Is this perhaps indicative of US inner cities?

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Cynthetiq

I don't know about Seattle, but on my walk home there's Whole Foods, Best Buy and of course Chinatown. This particular Whole Foods is about 1 year old.

When I worked in Times Square I had to stop on my way home to go to the market etc. There is the dearth of nothing in some parts of midtown, or you'd have to at least shop at the bodegas and small little delis.

Big box stores like Target, Walmart, yes, I have to go "far" for them. Target is in Queens, Walmart in NJ. Both require I drive to them. I don't go to them often, and it isn't usual for food stuffs.

As it is though, the big box solutions don't work for me that well. I don't eat at home enough to warrant a giant size anything.

A car in the city is a crutch. If you don't have one, what would you do? You'd find a different way...thus find a different way.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rl...num=1&ct=title

google maps shows there are a few grocery stores nearby you. The walkabout maps of Google aren't in Seattle yet, so I can't look at them and say I'd walk into those.

They also look like they are ethnic groceries. I just did a tour in Chicago of going to 5-6 different enthnic groceries and had a blast...

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The_Jazz

The South Side of Chicago has areas known as "food deserts" where the nearest grocery store is 5 miles away. The only nearby places to buy food are liquor stores that provide neither selection, nor competitive prices nor easy access to fruits and vegetables.

But I doubt that's what you're talking about.

Cyn was just in the nearest grocery store to my house (the Philipino grocery just south of Ridge and Clark for you locals), but there are 2 major stores within 1 mile of the house. That said, we typically drive about 10 minutes to a different location of one of those chains because it is larger and always seems less crowded. When you are shopping with a toddler, that makes the trip worthwhile.

We do most of our non-grocery shopping in the neighborhood. I've gotten to know the folks at the hardware store, the paint store and various little eateries just by patronizing them and being friendly with the staff. We just got invited to a private wine tasting at the little wine shop down the street. We don't buy much there, but the owners have a dog that's friendly, and it's a great place to stop on long walk.

Here's the tradeoff you're going to have, Shauk - shopping at local places will cost you more. There's no way around it. You'll balance that with gas saved and less wear and tear on your car. Personally, I always ask myself if it's worth my time to go somewhere that's a long drive if I can pay a little more down the street, but that's a question I can only answer for myself.

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Cynthetiq

That's some great insight Jazz. Chicago living where you do and where I was reminds me more of dense urban boroughs mixed in with suburubia. It's very overgrown "Main Street" so you can see the artery that thrives and the people that live off of it. Whereas in Lombard it was very much more zoned and controlled.

That market was the BEST!!! We bought alot of stuff there.

I'd also add that while shopping at the local places will cost slightly more, you're contributing to the neighborhood more than larger corporate stores do. I've been trying to buy at mom and pops more and more even if it costs me more. They live and breathe my neighborhood. At the end of the day the walk to their home in the neighborhood and sleep there.

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Charlatan

Cyn... I think NYC is a rather a-typical American city, no?

When I think typical, I think Toledo, Detroit, Cincinnati, Buffalo.

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Willravel

...if someone opened a grocery store there... they could rake it in!
*plans*

Cynthetiq

Yes, NYC is very much old world and a-typical Americana. San Francisco is ipretty close too. Singapore is what made me understand that's the kind of city living I wanted and NYC is the only place I was able to find anything remotely close. If there were hawker stalls in our apt building it would be great!

What I have been finding as we travel about that there are a number of countries where the living is very much similar to the urban sprawl drive and crawl from place to place shopping districts and big box stores just in foreign languages and foreign products.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Grasshopper Green

I live on the outskirts of downtown Salt Lake City. There IS a grocery store within walking distance of my house, but I try not to go there because the service is pathetic. Thinking of SLC...yes, a lot of people in the downtown area have to drive a bit to get to a regular grocery store, even further for a Wal-Mart, and even further for a Target. Me? I like that. If I wanted to have the "amenities" of the suburbs, I'd live there. I enjoy not having a huge shopping center close by...I don't have to worry about the throngs of people, noise, and traffic that go hand in hand with "progress".

As far as the actual city setup goes...my guess is most larger cities have an older downtown built before Wal-Mart existed. It's hard to fit a Wal-Mart in an area that wasn't designed for McMansions, big box stores, strip malls, and large parking lots needed to service them. People used to shop at Mom and Pop type stores that weren't much bigger than the surrounding houses. In SLC, those out-of-business stores are now unique bakeries, small restaraunts, florists, and music shops. It can be a pain when I need to go to a mall or something, but the tradeoff of that infrequent inconvienence and having a quiet neighborhood is worth it to me.

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Seaver

Um... back then Woolsworth was the evil corporation which was taking over. Yes they had downtown stores.

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Cynthetiq

Actually some of the original bigbox stores were in major metropolitans, Woolworth being one, Alexander's and Gimbles another. Macy's takes up a huge space in Herald Square, Sacks Fifth Ave, Lord & Taylor, Bergdorff Goodman, Bloomingdale's all are very humungous stores. These are all old school department stores.

We have 2 Home Depots here in Manhattan, one on 23rd Street.

Most urban sprawl didn't happen until the 50's post war generation, so the original downtowns of most cities would be similar with the departments stores and small mom and pops intermixed.

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roachboy

i've never---ever---read anything from anyone describing an urban neighborhood as "backward" because it didn't have a fucking walmart or a safeway.....

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Shauk

those were examples, not hard references.

smoore

"food desert" huh? That's weird and scary. Although I've often claimed I can live off of beer I'd hate to actually put that hypothesis to the test.

Is that a Wal-Mart-ification, i.e. the congregation of foodstuffs/clothing/toiletries/household goods into these big box stores? In Denver you still have Walgreens in most neighborhoods, it's a basic pharmacy with the "other" stuff you might not find in a grocery. Coffee cups, stuffed animals, pet needs, etc. Is this lacking in other cities?

A quick mental survey doesn't reveal anything but a shoe store, 99c type places and two thrift stores within walking distance of my house for clothing. Of course there's always Wal-Mart and I live within walking distance of not one but two of the fuckers. Seems like karma since I won't shop there.

I fear the big box culture.

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smoore

SecretMethod70

A bit off-topic, but that's a pretty cool site. Wish there were something like that for Chicago.

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Ustwo

I used to live near a grocery store on the outskirts of a 'food dessert' in Chicago.

Lets just say security was very high, its the only time I've seen uniformed security guards 24/7 at a grocery store.

For a while there was even angry talk of forcing Grocery stores to open in those areas or else not be able to have stores in Chicago. Not sure how that extortion worked out for the city counsel.

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abaya

Shauk--how close are you to Pike Place Market? Chinatown? Those two spots alone should provide TONS of fairly well-priced food-shopping opportunities.

Also, getting to Costco just south of downtown shouldn't be too time-consuming, and that place beats all the other box stores, hands-down.

And Broadway on Capitol Hill?... massive amounts of shopping available, I believe. Lower Queen Anne as well (very quick to get there from downtown). Ballard has all the box stores you could ask for, and so does the U-District. What is this talk about needing to drive all the way to Northgate for something like that? And man, you definitely do not want to LIVE in Northgate!!

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telekinetic

I have no frame of reference for the type of cities this thread seems to be referring to. I don't know of any of my friends (and I mean ANY) who don't have AT LEAST one car per driver in their household, I don't know anyone who walks to work (the one guy at my work who bikes is viewed as a weirdo, and even he has a 12 mile one-way commute).

I drive 80 miles a day to and from work and school, and am comfortably happy with how 'close' I am to everything. I have both a Super Target and a Super Walmart (Super means groceries) accross the street from my neighborhood (less than a mile driveway-to-parking spot). I'm not sure there is anywhere in Phoenix you can live that is farther than 4 miles from a Wal Mart...you're usually within 3 miles of 2.

Edit: I have never used public transportation in Phoenix, or really, at all...I rode the subway in Washington DC once, I think that may be the extent of it. The only bus I've been in was a cheap Greyhound to california.

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twisted no more

Charlatan

I currently do not own a car. We do the grocery shopping once a week. I take the bus to the store and a taxi to get home.

I can also walk to another grocery store but I choose to shop at the store a little further away because it is significantly cheaper to shop there.

If I want to do anyother shopping I can get there on the bus.

Back in Toronto, we had a grocery store a block or so from the house and a number of shops (cheese, butcher, fish monger, etc. all within reasonable walking distance).

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

The_Jazz

Ustwo, the talk wasn't of forcing chains to open stores in those areas (at least that I ever heard). It was of revising the restrictive covenants in their long term leases that stipulated that if a grocery store left a particular location, the owner of the building couldn't lease it out to another grocery store. It's much easier to lease an existing space than build a new one.

And smoore, it has nothing to do with the big box stores. There is only 1 Walmart in the city limits (and was allowed in as a direct result of the "food desert" problem), and Target only started to be an option here about 10 years ago. I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure that there are no "Super Targets" in the city that also sell food, but I could be wrong.

And we did go to our local Target this weekend, but we walked there with both boys.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

roachboy

http://www.thefoodtrust.org/php/prog...t.campaign.php

this organization has been compiling data about the various urban "food deserts" in the united states---it is only a curious idea if you haven't looked into the problem--in fact, the disappearance of supermarkets--and groceries--and with them fresh food sources--particularly in less affluent urban neihborhoods--is a real problem.

i will say, shauk, for what it's worth, than when i moved from philadelphia to chicago it took quite a while for us to adapt to finding ourselves deep in the heart of the planet meat as mostly-vegetarian people, and even longer to figure out how to find locally produced food, which is the preference for political and cooking reasons. it took some research and adaptability--and was annoying as hell for the first few weeks.

you'll probably end up having to alter your patterns a bit--but it can be fun to do that---e.g. it's a very different thing going to farmer's markets for fresh stuff twice a week than to a boxstore once a week to load up on more well-travelled options...

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

abaya

Btw, I just looked at your "neighborhood" link... you are so close to Chinatown, it's not even funny. Walk those 3-4 blocks to Jackson St. and check out how many fresh grocers are located within a few hundred yards of each other (my personal favorite is Viet Wah, just east of the I-5 bridge over Jackson: 1032 S. Jackson St. And the store Uwajimaya is also a local favorite, and has even more variety: 600 5th Ave S). And no, if you're worried about it being all Asian food, that's not the case. Spend a weekend afternoon exploring the area... I think you'll be surprised.

And I repeat... PIKE PLACE MARKET!! If you're close enough to walk to Columbia Tower, you're close enough to walk to the Market (or to take a bus, or trolley, or what have you).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

while it's not quite like it, it does have some good resources.

I was looking for some locals only type resources over the weekend and was reminded of a book for NYC called NFT: Not For Tourists. Googled and found they have a great website that details the whole book absolutely for free. What I enjoy about this book for NYC is that they list more off the beaten path resources which are more geared for locals. I'm glad that I found this since it will be a great resource for me to add to my DK Eyewitness guides. Which reminds me I have to pickup my DK Chicago book quickly.

What was more exciting was that they have other cities as well.

Atlanta
Boston
Chicago
Los Angles
Philadelphia
San Francisco
Seattle
Washington DC

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Shauk

that site has a couple locations but I think it's somewhat new.


http://www.livevillage.com/

Ustwo

Honestly not sure when what and if on that stuff, this was MANY years ago so might be me confused or a completely separate incident. I'd put nothing past the Chicago city council.

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abaya

So Shauk, HAVE you been to Chinatown or Pike Place Market?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Shauk

I have been to Pike Place Market several times but what exactly am I shopping for there? Same with Chinatown. Like I said in the O.P. I'm all set on finding food if I'm ever hungry but where the hell do I buy like... a computer desk? A bed? A tape measure? (ok so the answer is really just craigslist, but still, wtf?)

so frustrating sometimes, I seriously don't want to drive, nor do I really even have room in my car to put a computer desk or bed anyway.

my floor is getting old really fast though.

abaya

Erm, even if you could buy a bed or a desk on the next block over, how the heck would you get it home without a car?... unless it's an inflatable bed, lol. I guess I don't quite understand how close you expect to find stores.

Yes, you are OCCASIONALLY going to have to drive somewhere to buy some things... is that so strange? I think everyone has to do that, no matter how central their location is. You'd basically have to live in the middle of Northgate Mall (like, IN the mall) in order to be able to walk and find EVERYTHING you could possibly want, at any time... no one lives that close to every single store.

Again, have you tried any of the stores on Capital Hill? U-District (e.g. the U-Village)? Have you been to Fred Meyer in Ballard? It's really not that far away... maybe 10-15 mins in the car (assuming the bridge is down and not too much traffic, in the evenings), drive out along Elliot Ave and you'll be there in no time. Sometimes it sounds like you haven't gotten to know your city well enough yet...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

Have you asked if someone would deliver it? There may be a small cost associated with it.

I have things delivered all the time.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.