little_tippler

The problem with smoke is that it doesn't just affect you. It bothers people around you, a lot. I mean, it's disgusting going out to a disco and leaving with all your clothes, hair, you name it, reeking of smoke. Or having to inhale a breath of someone else's smoke.

There is also the health factor. Not only does it affect your health. It contributes to damaging the health of others. Ok, maybe not your smoke alone. But if no-one smoked, I'm sure there would be alot less smoke related cancers and illnesses cropping up.

I have never smoked in my entire life. But I have been surrounded by smokers all my life. It bothers me that I am forced to put up with it. Hey I wouldn't care if it didn't bother me or affect my health. I mean, I don't go around pissing in your food or slipping potentially deadly toxins in the air you breathe.
Why should you be able to blow smoke where I'm eating or in my face.

Portugal has only had a smoking ban in public places and the workplace since this January. I am very thankful for it. The first time I went out to dinner and then didn't have to send my clothes out for dry-cleaning the next day was wonderful. I have noticed though that the air outdoors smells a lot more of cigarettes.

I'm not usually radical, but I hate cigarettes and they have no place in my life. I say quit smoking already and do something more useful with your money and your life.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Hegemon1414

I like this guys style.

Seriously though, as another former smoker I couldn't agree more. I started smoking when I was a very young person and didn't quit until after my freshman year in college.

Too much rum, cigarettes, and general bodily neglect gave me a terrible bought of pneumonia. I vividly remember the hallucinations that came along with the 105 degree fever. Cough was pretty bad too.

Quit smoking then. Haven't come back. Get the headaches so many have mentioned now.

rlbond86

There's no such thing as "second-hand vegetarianism." Smoke causes a variety of problems -- some people have asthma, for example. Rooms that people smoke in smell nasty. If they had cigarettes that didn't do these things, then puff away -- otherwise you'll have to do your destructive activity elsewhere. Sorry.

Martian

Full disclosure: I was until recently a smoker. I maintained a half a pack per day habit for over five years. I have recently decided to stop smoking because the benefits now outweigh the costs for me. My reasons for starting were my own, my reasons for quitting were my own. If I start again in the future, my reasons for resuming the habit will be my own.

I don't want accolades or pats on the back for quitting. I didn't shout it from the rooftops. I don't tell people that I've quit unless the subject specifically comes up in conversation. Frankly, quitting was nearly as easy for me as starting was. I just stopped smoking cigarettes. My big secret? I waited until I was ready to quit. The cravings sucked, but I had good reasons not to give into them, so fighting them wasn't that hard.

I'm fairly liberal and am of the belief that so long as you're not hurting anyone else you should be entitled to fuck up your body in whatever way you deem fit. Heroin? Go for it. Cocaine? Why should I care? Marijuana? Caffeine? Whatever. The fact that I don't do these things doesn't mean I'm about to get high and mighty on folks who do. It's your individual choice.

'But second hand smoke kills!' all the naysayers cry. And if smokers are in an enclosed public space where other individuals are forced to be, fine. That argument has merit. Out of doors, away from entrances and exits? Please. You're telling me that the half-second breath of tobacco smoke is going to eviscerate your children? I'm not buying it. Similarly, if a bar or restaurant owner decides that he's going to allow his patrons to smoke in his establishment, I reckon that should be the proprietor's choice. Don't like it? Vote with your feet.

Of note, when I was a smoker I made a habit of getting the go-ahead from my companions before I lit up. Whether we were outside or not, I generally asked and tried to be conscientious about it. Being a smoker does not automatically equate to being good-for-nothing, being a lowlife, being stupid, or whatever other association you want to make. All it tells you about a person is what bad habit they have.

Personally, I'm not particularly bothered by cigarette smoke. Maybe I need to be off the cancer sticks longer before that part kicks in, I don't know. But even if I were, I'm not about to get down on people who are making reasonable accommodations. Smoking outside and out of the way is reasonable. Expecting everyone to quit because you don't like it or didn't make that particular choice is not reasonable. I don't like drinking. Alcohol is a factor in thousands of deaths every year. It's certainly not good for you and has the potential to kill not only you but innocent people around you. Should we ban drinking? Or should we maybe simply expect drinkers to make reasonable accommodations, such as not driving while drunk?

The people who really bothered me when I was a smoker and continue to do so now are the ones who think that quitting entitles them to hassle all current smokers about their habit. Some smokers don't have the willpower to quit. Some just plain don't want to. There are people out there who actually enjoy the habit. I say this with confidence because I was one right up until the day I quit. Even now, I'm quite sure I'd love nothing more than to light up a smoke, but I have better reasons not to.

Of all the evils of this world, smoking is definitely not the worst. It's far more productive to turn your attention to issues that truly matter, rather than turning people into scapegoats due to a habit they chose, regardless of what you think of it.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Coats

I respect your opinion Martian, however, the bottom line is that while smoking individually is not the worst atrocity there is, it does affect the people around them.

You know damn well that people will say "yea go head" even though they really mean 'wow you're addicted, stop smoking, but let's have a conversation while you smoke anyway' type of deal.

Stop smoking.

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Martian

No you don't. You just think that saying that gives you a free pass. Or that's what I'd conclude from what follows, anyway.

You cannot seriously argue from a medical basis that walking past a smoker out-of-doors will have any long-term adverse effects. Most actual smokers go 40 years or more before the serious health problems start kicking in. I'm also not buying a quality of life argument here; unless you go out of your way to put yourself in close proximity to smokers, you can't be spending more than a few seconds a day walking past them. I fail to see how this is going to do anything to ruin your day, unless you're just looking to villify smokers to begin with.

As I said above, smokers are already making reasonable accommodations. I'm all for banning smoking in the work place and in public buildings. When a smoker is outside, however, and not blocking a door, they're already doing as much as can be reasonably expected. I'm sorry you don't like smoking. I think vulgar t-shirts are stupid.

Telling me what I "know damn well" is not respecting my opinion and is needlessly confrontational. Furthermore, I would suggest that okaying it with my companions is again making a reasonable accommodation. If they don't like smoking, the onus is on them to speak up when given the opportunity; that is, after all, the whole point of the endeavour. If they don't I can't be expected to know it bothers them. Nicotine unfortunately does not grant the ability to read minds.

First of all, we read, then reply. I did stop smoking. Secondly, if I were still smoking I would find this unbelievably condescending and irritating. In fact, that I'm not smoking makes it more so, since it indicates that you can't even be bothered to read what I write before preaching to me.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Coats

This is a forum, not a personal conversation, I say 'stop smoking' as a statement. The respect was in response to your post.

You're not seriously arguing that smokey (whether it be of cigarettes or not) conditions are not hazardous to health are you?

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Martian

Smoking is hazardous to a smoker's health. Smoking is not hazardous to a non-smoker's health in conditions where said non-smoker is not exposed to a significant amount of smoke. These are facts, not opinions. The issue up for debate, then, is how much constitutes a significant amount. Frankly, I'm not 100% sure where to draw the line, but unless you're deathly allergic to tobacco smoke I think it's safe to say that 1 or 2 lungfuls aint it.

I am currently 24 years old. If I don't resume smoking, the chances of it having any long-term negative impact on my health is exceedingly small. I am reasonably certain that I have inhaled more smoke over the past five years than most non-smokers will in a lifetime of walking past smokers in the street and I wasn't even a particularly heavy smoker.

If you read everything I've written in this thread carefully, you'll find that I'm not opposed to smoking bans in public indoor places. If it's an area that smokers share with other people, then sure you have a point. On the other hand, tobacco smoke is not a significant pollutant out of doors. If you're bothered by smoke and smog in the street, you need to go after cars first.

As an aside, if you address a post to me, (by prefacing it with my name, for example, as in "I respect your opinion Martian...") I'm going to assume it's addressed to me unless or until noted otherwise. This is, I think, standard forum practice.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

TotalMILF

My son is going through a bout of bronchitis at the moment (taking him to the doc in a couple hours). My mother-in-law smokes in the house but only in her room with the door closed, yet I can tell every time she lights up because my son starts coughing even harder. His room is a floor away on the opposite end of the house.

You think your smoking doesn't affect nonsmokers even if you're in a separate room? Think again. It's just plain rude and inconsiderate and should be outlawed in every public building (including apartment complexes).

My $0.02.

__________________
"I'm sorry, all I heard was blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."

dd3953

i looked into this - as it turns out it can't be done. smoking is illegal in all public places in most states. so businesses couldn't even do this if they wanted to.

and some how i don't think that people eating at the place would mind absorbing the cost.

__________________
[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]

allaboutmusic

Yeah I know the current law doesn't allow this - but I think it SHOULD allow it.

Glory's Sun

It's funny how all of these smoking threads are almost identical. From the reformed smokers, to the asthmatics, to the asshole smokers and the non-asshole smokers.

I always enjoy reading the "oh noes! I just inhaled 2 seconds worth of smoke! I'm gonna get the black death!" argument If someone is that worried about carcinogens then.. well don't breathe at all. Cars and planes etc. don't exactly give out fresh air.

I'm not going to stand directly in front of a door and smoke. I'm considerate in that regard, however, if you make some dumb comment about the smell of smoke then.. yeah you'll get a face full of it. If I'm being considerate.. then perhaps you should keep your mouth shut and be considerate as well. If I go to your house, I'm not going to smoke in it. I promise. If you come to mine.. I won't smoke either.. oh wait.. that's because I smoke outside anyway. You have asthma? Well I won't light up next to you. But seriously.. don't think I'm some weak ass pathetic person just because I enjoy a good smoke. We all have habits.. some are just more noticeable than others.

I'm also in agreement that business owners should be allowed to make their own decisions in regard to smoke policies and if they should have the ventilators and extractors etc in order to accomodate both groups of people. You know how lame it is to walk into a pub with no smoke? It's just dumb. I wouldn't even honor it with my money.

Anyways, I think I'll go have smoke now.

Ustwo

Life long non-smoker.

I hate the smell of smoke, and I think its an amazingly stupid habit to have. Its one I just can't comprehend.

I also support peoples right to smoke, and a business right to allow smoking.

The no smoking laws my state passes helps me out personally quite a bit. I really LIKE not smelling like an ashtray if I go out somewhere at night, but this isn't about me or my likes.

Personally I'd rather the laws be that you can't smoke OUTSIDE where I can't avoid it than inside where I can go to another establishment if I like. If I'm downwind at a beach I can smell someone smoking almost instantly and there I don't have a choice if I want to stay at public beach.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

allaboutmusic

I'm not going to say that breathing cigarette fumes for two seconds while walking past a smoker will kill you. Of course it won't. If you're sensitive to it or allergic it might trigger coughing, but for most ordinary people it probably won't be anything other than unpleasant.

The main reason I like the smoking ban was that I hated the secondhand smoke that hung in the air at pubs and clubs where I was gigging. If they had just installed proper ventilation I would have had less of a problem with it. I think many smokers don't realise how much many non-smokers dislike the smell of cigarette smoke. And the fact that the smell sticks to your clothes and hair and stays with you until you wash them.

dd3953

this doesn't completely have anything to do with smoking, but here it goes: many people also dislike the smells of some perfume, some soaps, and other such things. does that give me a right to tell them they can't us it any more?

i know there is more to this issue than smell, but since some many people have commented on it, i thought i should too.

__________________
[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]

Glory's Sun

that's why I smoke..

I don't feel like smelling your aqua di gio

Willravel

If my Safari by Ralph Lauren is going to give you cancer, then by all means call me on it. Actually, if it triggers asthma or allergies, it seems reasonable to ask me not to bathe in the crap.

Glory's Sun

as much as people put on.. I wouldn't be surprised if it did cause some sort of cancer.. I mean.. doesn't everything cause it these days?

Willravel

To be fair, cologne doesn't kill 1/10 adults globally.

Glory's Sun

how do you know?!!

Martian

I'd be interested to see how that figure was derived. It seems unreasonably high to me.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

allaboutmusic

I think it gives me the right to tell them not to spray it on me! Seriously, the smell of secondhand cigarette smoke sticks to your clothes better than secondhand perfume does, maybe even better than sprayed perfume, and lasts much longer as well.

Redlemon

I sing in a local chorus. There's a "no perfume, cologne, or garlic" rule for concert days, so that you don't gag or pass out when the hot lights hit the stage.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Ustwo

I think society needs to be less polite at times and tell people their perfume stinks, lingers, and makes people hate them coming around.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

QuasiMondo

Pardon me, sir, but your colonge is killing me

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Xazy

I have met people who smell like they shower in it, you can smell them 2 rooms away. I have a few times politely gone over to them and told them so, and most say they will try to tone it down (or something to that degree). The reply really is all about how you approach and talk to the person.

Mephex

I smoke, and I'm the most considerate smoker you'll meet. I go downwind from people at gatherings, actually I avoid anyone who isn't smoking when I am. I also have this thing where I can't leave butts laying about when I do, I hate seeing them on the ground, on offramps, in parking lots etc. Ever been behind that person at a stoplight that opens their door to empty the ashtray ? Nice.

For the record, the job I had for a few years required me to enter peoples homes. I didn't wear cologne, carried gum and did my best to be smoke/odor-free on arrival. It's something about wanting to be presentable and respectful.

So the question I have, is that why would someone go to all this effort to not intrude on others lifestyles, and still have this urge to destroy themselves ?

I think that's more the issue. Smoke or don't, drink like a fish, eat shit for food, don't take care of yourself at all. Your opinion still counts, right ?

That may be going in the wrong direction, but to say whether it's ones right or not won't really get anywhere. People are going to do, what they will do.

__________________
He who is void of virtuous attachments in private life is, or very soon will be, void of all regard for his country.
There is seldom an instance of a man guilty of betraying his country, who had not before lost the feeling of moral obligations in his private connections.
-Samuel Adams

dd3953

LOL. I love the reactions people had to the "smell" post, that's half the reason i posted it. this thread needed to be lighted up a little bit.

i do all the same things, trying to respect other people. but sometimes, it's just annoying and i just wanna have a smoke.


although, i'm sad, enough of us to start a movement. . . not on TFP anyway.

__________________
[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]

little_tippler

It's funny you'd say this because the law allows for this in Portugal in certain businesses (bars, discos, restaurants). As long as the space has a certain area and there is an extraction system, people can smoke in the place.

Apparently this happens in Spain too, because that's where I am right now and the other day I went out for dinner and we sat in this room with an extraction system.

I must say that the smokers didn't bother me and the air was quite fresh smelling. I'm not sure if this is just masking the problem though. I did think it was a friendly solution anyway.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

allaboutmusic

The system you describe sounds like a decent compromise, tippler.

thespian86

I think the solution to "being rained on, attacked by wind" and so on and so forth is to stop smoking. The alternative is to be shit on by mother nature. I think a fitting analogy would be a shooting range. It is an acceptable place to take out a gun, point it at things, and shoot. There are several people in the world that know the dangers of guns and still enjoy the feeling it gives them so society has designated a place for them to enjoy their dangerous pass time.

No I am not saying cigarettes are as deadly as guns. But I think they are becoming as big a social taboo.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Jam

Exactly, what entitles them to waste more time at work and get paid for it? What if I was hooked on crack (or phonics for that matter), should I get numerous paid breaks to feed my habit while others are doing the work I'm being paid to do?

And just because you're outside doesn't mean the smoke doesn't offend someone, if someone is smoking in a car 3 cars up at a red light I will quite often smell it.

Not only is it unhealthy, the smoke is irritating smelling, tasting, and irritating to the eyes... And not to mention, just overall disgusting.

I often house sit for smokers, and I don't necessarily notice the smell right away when I am there, but I will smell it in my clothes after I leave, and my eyes will get sore and I will get headaches...

When I was younger, my parents had friends over who often smoked... I found the no smoking sign on the computer, printed out, and posted it up in the kitchen where they used to converse... Since then no one has smoked in the house, it used to come right upstairs to where my room was.

What are the redeeming factors of smoking?

Mister Coaster

The problem with this topic is... everyone is right. And consequently, everyone is also wrong. For every logical arguement one way there is an equally logical arguement the other way. Post a link to one study, and someone else can post a link to another that disproves it.

One thing I know is true, none of us are old enough to have lived in a world without cigaretts. Smoking used to be cool, socially acceptable and downright sophisticated. Shit, there was a time when doctors prescribed cigarette smoking to their patients. Yeah yeah, we didn't know the risks & dangers associated with smoking then. What's my point? I dunno. Let's just say that things that we consider perfectly safe today may be demonized in the future.

Wether you smoke or don't smoke, wether you quit or never touched them, wether you are allercic or not, or maybe you are going to take your first puff tomorrow. There are 2 types of people in this world... assholes and everyone else. Don't be an asshole about it.

Go back and read Martian's posts on this subject, he seems to have the best slant on the topic. [applause]

__________________
If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

Willravel

I've decided to shift my policy on smoking. I support a full ban.

If you want to smoke, grow it in your closet and don't get caught.

ASU2003

My rule is that you can do anything you want to do as long as it doesn't negatively effect other people. If I am not paying or your health care in a socialized system, you can do whatever you want to your body.

Willravel

So if universal healthcare is passed and implemented, you would then approve of a ban on smoking?

m0rpheus

Former smoker giving my 2 cents here.

Spoken like someone who was never a smoker and has no idea how hard it is for some people to quit.
I said I would quit if packs ever hit five bucks. Guess what? I didn't. I said I would quit if they hit 7.50, and guess what? I didn't. I said I would quit when they hit ten bones. Guess what? Actually I had already quit by then. Thing is the price had zero reason to do with me quitting.
If price is the only reason you are quitting then odds are that the quit wont be successful. You don't really want to quit, you are just raging against the most recent price increase/tax. A few days later you are back smoking again.
I quit because I wasn't enjoying cigarettes and didn't want to smoke anymore.

Quoted for emphasis of the above.

Because that works well with pot.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

Willravel

That's a rather old fallacy. "Why outlaw it? People are gonna do it anyway..."

dc_dux

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__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

m0rpheus

So why not tax it?

Then again I don't even smoke pot but I'm still all for decriminalization.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson