invalidiuser

Looking to see if I can have other people point of view on the situation that I am in. I am at the point where I have just thrown down the flag and given up after 16 years of trying and giving my all.

Info on us. We have been married for 16 years now. We got married when we were young due to being immature and dumb at the time. I am 30 and she is 29. We have four kids ages 15, 13, 9 and 5. Throughout our whole 16 year marriage, me and my kids have been the ones doing everything as far as cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc….

I work full time and will also be going back to finish my Masters degree. I pay all the bills, help with all the chores around the house along with my kids. During the period before she started going back to school a year ago, she never pitched in any help unless she sees me to the point that I am very angry at her. If I ask her nicely to do anything, it will just come to the point of her saying “ I will do it later, I will do it later and it ends up never getting done”. I think she must get a kick out of it to see that I am angry and the she will then finally help out for a day. But then the next day, she is back to herself as if watching a movie or just sitting around letting life past by as if there is nothing important to do around the house.

I have tried for the past 16 years to try and change her bad habits and just be more responsible as far as taking care of the kids, cooking for the kids and help clean around the house. Tried the nice way of communicating what she needs to do, should do, issues as to why its not getting done, and what can I or the kids do to also motivate her. Any problems that she may have. Tried the bad guy way and even at the time of rage, said that for her to just leave because we are at a point where we are probably not meant to be together. Both went to counsel to maybe reconcile our differences. But, nothing seems to be working. I guess its like they say “After so many years of trying to help and change someone and they never do, they will never change.”

The things that she does around the house is lounge, watch TV, movies and non productive things while I am at work. I get home and just hate having to keep reminding her that things need to be done around the house and watching a movie is not going to clean it. Now that she is also going back to school, she still does the same thing and wait till the last three or four hours of it being due, the she would finally start working on it. It just seems like she has no care in the world and understanding. Counseling does not help, communication does not help, threat of leaving does not help? What else is there but to do the ultimatum and just call it quits now?

Basiclly what it comes down to is that she is a lazy person and after 16 years of trying to change her lazy ways, nothing is working. I am just tired of give, give, and never receive any help back.
Do you feel also that after 16 years of marriage and if a person is still how they are, that they will never be able to change.

Kadath

Uh...how did you get legally married at 14 and 13? And you have a 15 year old at 30 and 29?

I think you should divorce her and sue for full custody of the children, but unfortunately the courts are unlikely to side with you.

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abaya

Yeah, that is what I was wondering, too!

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ShaniFaye

long as they had their parents permission its not illegal (Im assuming they are in the states)

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

dirtyrascal7

Who cares how they got married so young? That isn't the issue.

Personally, it sounds like you've exhausted nearly all of your options and have been more than patient and tolerant of her laziness. I would suggest getting rid of the TV, but that wouldn't really solve the problem because the issue stems deep inside her.

She is obviously taking a lot of things for granted, and perhaps she will only realize how much she cares about everything once it's gone. If I were you, I'd talk to a lawyer and discuss your legal options. If you're really that miserable, it's not worth waiting around for another 15 years in hopes that she'll change. You still have a large portion of your life to live... so go live it.

__________________
"Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past."

"Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him."

Cynthetiq

let me understand this, so is the not cleaning up and cooking a dealbreaker?

if somehow the place was clean and food on the table but not done by you or her is that still a dealbreaker?

maybe the kids need to be brought to bear on solving this since you two are back in school and probably don't have the funds to cover someone else coming in to clean up.

Assign one of the kids as part of their chores to delegate and clean up the house.

If you'd like to hire someone to come in a clean, maybe she takes a part time job to pay for it.

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ShaniFaye

he already stated the kids were helping with doing all the chores

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Cynthetiq

I got that, but his statement included himself, which is why my question is if he's no longer doing it at all, does that still create the same issue for him.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ratbastid

Oh, I couldn't disagree more. I was 21 when I got married, and I really had to deal with the fact that while most 20-somethings were out sewing wild oats, I was already settled down with one person.

I can't imagine what making a lifelong commitment at the age of 13 would do to a person--and I don't see how a 13-year-old could authentically make a promise to be with one person for the rest of their life. I know some 13-year-olds. They have a hard time foreseeing the end of the current hour, let alone the rest of their life.

jewels

I would ask first if you still love one another? Does communication and respect exist in the marriage? We can't make any assumptions here. And we've heard only one side of the story.

It sounds as though one of two things may have happened here. From your side, it sounds as though she's taken advantage of your kindness and willingness to do the tasks from day one and sees you as a pushover.

If there is any love and respect remaining, counseling would be the way to go. Sadly, it sounds as though it may be beyond that.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

genuinegirly

Cyn has a very good point.

I'd also like for you to step back and take a look at the bigger picture.

Your situation struck a chord with me.

1 - You're thinking about leaving her when you're about to go to night MBA school? Do you not realize the instability this might bring to your children's lives? Mom and Dad divorce. Dad fighting for custody. In the meantime, stuck with Mom, doing all the chores Dad used to help out with. Don't see Dad except for the rare vacation day, partly because of custody issues, but mainly because he's either at school or work all the time. My father went to night MBA school while working full-time. He disappeared out of my life for a few years. Do you really want to confuse your children (especially that 5-year-old) by telling them you love them enough to find them a better mommy, then being unable to spend much time with them for 2 or more years?

2 - What kind of individual allows the person they love to be in agony over something as minor as household chores? She is not being fair to you. Are you certain you're expressing your doubts about your marriage and other feelings to her adequately? Yes, she has put you in a bad position. Her behavior is reprehensible. But you need to stick with her until you have that MBA. Once that degree is in your hand, and you have 2 years of documented negligence against your wife, then find that lawyer.

2 stories to share, from family/friends:

M and R love each other. They get married. They know what they're getting into: M knows that R doesn't have the same knack for cleaning and cooking that other girls do. M accepts this. R is a creative, brilliant artist and would like to spend all of her time painting. Fortunately she realizes the need to provide for her family while her husband is a full-time student. M watches the kids while doing homework, he likes to clean so he does the chores. The same with cooking. M knows that he chose this life when he married R. He's ok with it. R works full-time at a job she hates, then comes home in the evening and completes online courses for her MA degree. M watches the kids, does all the cleaning and cooking, and occasionaly asks for help from R's mother. He's happy that R is working full-time, but hopes she'll be able to get a job she enjoys once she has that MA.

Q and B get married after knowing one another for 6 months. Q and B think they love each other very much, but it's probably just infatuation. B never was allowed to help with chores when she was growing up. She didn't know how to make dinner or clean. Q taught her how to cook his favorite recipes, and how to clean. B was happy to learn. B had a high-paying full-time job in fashion and loved it. Q had a decent job as a mechanic and loved it. B did most of the housework, even though her job was more demanding. Q came home from work in the evening and yelled at B because B didn't clean things as nicely as Q wanted. B cried, told him she tried, and was determined to do better the next day. She didn't like disappointing her new husband. Q and B decided to move someplace new, out of the hustle of downtown. They moved to the country and bought a large home with a large yard. Q liked to garden. Q demanded they get a house where there's a big garden so he can play in it during the weekends. Once they moved in, Q asked B to maintain the garden. B reminded Q that she didn't know how to take care of a garden. Q handed her some books and asked her to have fun. B, overwhelmed with her added responsibilities from the larger home and yard, had a miscarriage. She decided to quit work because it was too stressful with all of the stress at home. Q didn't want his wife supporting him anyway, so welcomed this change. B stayed home. She spent all day cooking and cleaning. She wanted to please Q. Q came home from work every day and found something to criticize her on when it came to her cleaning.

35 years later, their 25 year old daughter comes home from college and looks around their house. It's not just clean. It's hygenic to the extreme. She asks B if Q still comes home every night and criticizes. B breaks down into tears. Yes, he does.

Are you certain that your standards are not set too high?

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Willravel

In what state is marriage at 13 years old legal? Neither men nor women are old enough to marry at that age. They've not yet developed mentally or emotionally.

genuinegirly

With the consent of parents, Utah.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Willravel

Normally I don't like to generalize, but Utah is kinda backwards.

ShaniFaye

In many states its legal if approved by a judge

http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenus.htm

This is one I see that specifies a 13 year old

New Hampshire: Individuals under the age of 18 may not marry in New Hampshire. Brides must be at least 13 years of age, and if under 17 years of age, will need parental approval and a waiver. Grooms must be at least 14 years of age, and if under 17 years old, will also need parental approval and a waiver.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Willravel

I thought this kind of thing was considered antiquated, and for good reason. The necessary emotional and intellectual development to facilitate coupling isn't anywhere near in place at that age. It's not fair to either party, and as much as I feel for the OPer, a marriage that young is not likely to succeed because so much is set against it.

Invaliduser's wife never developed into a mature adult as a direct result of her marriage at 13. It's okay for you to blame your and her parents, invaliduser. I'm very sorry.

invalidiuser

I'm sorry. I guess I was brought up wrong. I was brought up that in a marriage, it should be a 50/50 relationship and not 90/10. My bad.

Our marriage was conscent thru the parents.

ShaniFaye

Well the question I have....is why you've let it go on for 16 years?

how long of those 16 years have you lived on your own? (ie didnt live with relatives)

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

dirtyrascal7

I said how, not why. I agree getting married that young is a bad idea... but that wasn't what Kadath and abaya were addressing, and neither was I.

__________________
"Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past."

"Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him."

invalidiuser

If you re-read it, I stated both me and the kids did the work. That is about 90% of everything. And yes, I am still taking part in the work and not just the kids alone.

Moved out when I was able to get a job at 16. Was able to save enough for an apartment.

ShaniFaye

has she ever been seen for anything like depression? Im sure getting married that young and becoming a mother that young has had some impact on her thinking?

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ottopilot

edit - sorry ShaniFaye, we must have been posting within minutes of each other

It sounds to me like she is depressed. Not in the sense of "oh boo hoo, I'm sad", but in the sense that she has shut down and given up on ambition, drive, life.

I'm not giving her a pass, mainly because we don't know all the details. It could be laziness, but I doubt it. At the core, some people are extremely goal and purpose driven. When they perceive themselves at a dead end, and when life may not currently provide the information they need to focus their inspiration in a new positive direction, they literally shut down or immerse in distraction. Sometimes basic needs, family, and survival are not enough to jolt someone like this out of their rut because they no longer recognize opportunity or hope. Sometimes tough love is their only hope.

Have either of you seen a therapist? Was there an event that you can relate to when these changes in behavior started to surface? There could be a number of physiological and psychological issues that are contributing to your wife's behavior. But again... she may be just plain old lazy.

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Ustwo

I would say your first step is speaking with a good divorce lawyer and seeing how you can lose as little as possible, with 4 kids all of dependent ages thats going to be difficult to work out.

As for the real question though, from what you presented it sounds bad. Obviously no one knows enough about it to give you real advice on how to get her motivated. There have been times where my wife goes into 'lazy' mode for several months, especially right after having a child and the hormones are screwed to hell, but this sounds like a deeper issue for you and what worked on my wife is going to be different for you.

Not to play Dr. Phil and give you bad pop psychology psychobabble, but it sounds like she never grew up, it went from her parents to you being her parent.

How to fix this I have no idea. My first thought is to let thing start to go to hell, do only the minimum and see how she reacts. I'd have done that a long time ago, letting the trash, the dishes, everything pile up.

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ring

The math problem aside..(on 10-6-2004)
you stated that you were 28 and had been having sex since age
16....

Sounds like a rough time..I empathize..
maybe your own personal counselor would be in order.
Be well and good luck..

World's King

I hate to be this blunt but...



You said you got married young because you were immature dumb. And you're still immature and dumb.


Get a divorce.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

jewels

Blunt: You go on strike. You don't announce it. Stop cleaning the house. Period. No giving in because you can't stand the mess. You get out of the house (with kids), if you must. What happens?

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

flstf

Only you can decide whether you can live with the situation and either decide to accept the laziness, try to change her (not liikely), or bail out. Also it has been my experience that there are two sides to these stories.

You guys have been together for half your lives so you probably know that she is not going to change much. For what it's worth, I know several guys who are divorced and remarried who are going through problems in their second marriages. One comment I overheard was "If I had put this much effort into saving my first marriage, I would never have gotten divorced".

Willravel

This should be illegal. It should be absolutely illegal for children to get married.

Ustwo

Because 16 years and 4 kids later hes sick of her being lazy?

I think its fucked up too, but this is not the case for it.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ShaniFaye

my great grandmother was 14 when she married my great grandfather....they had 16 kids and he was the great love of her life....she never remarried after he died because she said she'd had the best, she didnt need to find another

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Willravel

This is only one small example. As I said above, coupling requires certain emotional and intellectual capabilities that children are yet to develop. It's that simple.

World's King

And at that point people still got married because one family had two goats and a son. And the other family had zero goats and a daughter.


"I'll sell you my goat and throw in my son if you can promise your daughert can bare at least two sons."

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Ustwo

While on the one side it horrifies me, on the other I'd put a gentlemans wager that very young marriages like this one are no more fucked up than normal ones on average.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ShaniFaye

sorry, my great grandparents didnt have farm animals lol...in fact they didnt farm at all.

I remember hearing her talk about him when I was younger...her face always lit up

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

roachboy

i dont have any particular opinion about the situation outlined in the op because when you write about something like this, you reorganize it so thoroughly that the story ends up being more about what you are trying to do than what explains what you are trying to do.

i was married for 17 years and then we divorced. what i different is that we had no kids.

my only bit of advice is--and this comes from the fact that i did not do this, so trust me on it---this will fuck you up for a while. get counselling. dont fool yourself into thinking that because you feel ok that you are ok---you may end up performing your not-okness in all kinds of ways--and chances are, if my experience is any guide at least, you wont see it.

16 years is a long time. you are knit into this thing in a much deeper way than you think.
get some support.
you'll need it.
it isn't a bad thing to do, it is not a sign of weakness.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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ShaniFaye

I agree with Roach....I divorced after 15 years (1 child) and even though it was an amicable and much wanted (on both sides) divorce, I still had a difficult time emotionally when it was finalized (ask ratbastid, I was in tears and just sitting in my car at the courthouse not knowing what to do next)

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Hain

How important is it to complete your Masters? Required immediately? I know I would want to finish any degree I set out for immediately... but I have the luxury of being a young jack-ass, no strings attached at this point.

If I were in this situation, I would hold out on getting the degree, divorce the woman, get things back on track with you and the kids. When things are well between you and the kids... then worry about the degree. What I worry about is your children picking up her bad habits.

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Ustwo

From a divorce stand point you are better off getting the degree after the divorce from an earnings standpoint.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ngdawg

If you are going for a Master's, then you must have at least a Bachelor's degree, right?
I agree with Ustwo(yikes!!) and othe others: Hold off on the degree, get yourself and your affairs in order and get out.
I think she's stuck in 14 or or regressed to 14 if she wasn't always "this bad". While I am not in the exact same boat, I know that at some point, when we're dissatisfied with our lives, we regress before we can move forward(if indeed she ever thinks she can move forward).
Having two teenagers is rough enough; having two teenagers, two more and an unhappy home makes for a very bad emotional mix. Don't hem and haw and hope she'll "snap out of it"-make a decision that will be of your and your kids' best interests. A lawyer can help, so can a therapist.

genuinegirly

Aha! I hadn't even thought about how much easier it would be financially for you to be a single parent while attending graduate school. Grants and low-interest loans galore. Smart thinking. This is a good option, if you make sure you don't start graduate school until all ties are broken and the kids are definitively yours.

It's definitely a messed up situation. She's treating you horribly. Moving on is a great idea. Sounds like since you've been dealing with school and the workplace all this time, you've experienced considerably more personal development.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy